Banjo unsafe on Z32's??? SPL says differentially...

[black s13]

Ive always heard that using the stock banjo fitting on Z32 calipers was ghetto/unsafe, hence the reason for "conversion lines" existing, but while reading on www.splparts.com I come across this:

"Note: The standard brake lines will work with Z32 and R32 calipers, no special brake lines are necessary. Just install the banjo fitting on the Z32/R32 caliper -- this is how Nissan installs the brake lines on the S15 (which uses Z32 style calipers) from the factory."

http://splparts.com/Silvia/Brake/Kit.htm

whats the deal? I guess its alright to use the banjo fittings then? why has everyone been saying that it isnt a good idea?

[mbmbmb23]

I've heard the reason the banjo fitting doesnt work is because the banjo bolt is too long. People have ground down the bolt to make it fit.

Maybe the stock brake lines on the S15 have larger fittings and longer banjo bolts that fully seat within the caliper's female threading?



-m

[SilviaDriver]

i was wondering..

for the conversion brake lines

wats the difference between the banjo and the -an fitting?

does it really matter which one u use?

[95Blue240sx]

i found that the conversion lines are much easier to work with. ive installed about 4-5 z32 brakes and found that the banjo leaks. but that could be due to uneven surface or mbmbmb23 said, the bolt being to long. if you were going to upgrade your brake lines anyway, might as well use a an brake line upgrade. the is easy to deal. the easy way out you could say. just ask ieatrice about our expierience with banjo fittings.

[Muzzy]

did his lines blow out???

[95Blue240sx]

no, its just that it leaked like a mofo. i was like wtf is going on. im not an idiot(at least i hope not;)) i know how banjo fittings work. they just kept leaking. so i said ok, i tightend it a little more, and a little more, and then snap! the damn banjo bolt stripped. i wont say where he got the lines from but the banjo bolt was crap. if you do use the banjo bold get some grade 8 bolts. they wont strip. and by looking at the caliper it would seem the best fitting to use is the AN, just its flared on the inside. that would make for the best sealing, well compared to the banjo

damn i need to take english again lol. i would recieve and F, for FUCKED sentence structure. oh well i could care less.

[[email protected]]

We have had no problems with the lines we installed on several cars, but several things could cause it not to seal properly:

1. Use new sealing washers -- very important

2. We have not encountered this, but if the bolt is still too long a little grinding of the bolt end would allow it to fully tighten. The proper method is to remove the inverted flare piece (yes it is a separate little fitting pressed into the caliper) using an EZ-out or extractor. If you do not want to do this, send the calipers to us and we will remove it free of charge for customers who purchased the lines from us.

Originally posted by black s13
Ive always heard that using the stock banjo fitting on Z32 calipers was ghetto/unsafe, hence the reason for "conversion lines" existing, but while reading on www.splparts.com I come across this:

"Note: The standard brake lines will work with Z32 and R32 calipers, no special brake lines are necessary. Just install the banjo fitting on the Z32/R32 caliper -- this is how Nissan installs the brake lines on the S15 (which uses Z32 style calipers) from the factory."

http://splparts.com/Silvia/Brake/Kit.htm

whats the deal? I guess its alright to use the banjo fittings then? why has everyone been saying that it isnt a good idea?

[[email protected]]

If this line was purchased from us, we will provide a full refund, just call us. We stand by our products and info...

Originally posted by 95Blue240sx
no, its just that it leaked like a mofo. i was like wtf is going on. im not an idiot(at least i hope not;)) i know how banjo fittings work. they just kept leaking. so i said ok, i tightend it a little more, and a little more, and then snap! the damn banjo bolt stripped. i wont say where he got the lines from but the banjo bolt was crap. if you do use the banjo bold get some grade 8 bolts. they wont strip. and by looking at the caliper it would seem the best fitting to use is the AN, just its flared on the inside. that would make for the best sealing, well compared to the banjo

damn i need to take english again lol. i would recieve and F, for FUCKED sentence structure. oh well i could care less.

[Muzzy]

sssooooo....i take it that its ok to run the stock lines and banjo fitting??

[old_s13]

Running banjo setup on Z32 calipers in my opinion, is quite shoddy.

Me? I would not try to save 80-100 dollars in brake lines and risk it.

Think about how most banjo fittings seat on a caliper, they have metal that locks the fitting into place in ADDITION to the bolt that holds it on. With the Z32, there is no metal there to stop the banjo fitting from coming loose and turning, SHOULD the bolt/line come loose.

You are spending money on UPGRADING your car, do it right or just dont do it at all.

Even then, you're going to have people that say "sure its okay to go Z32 calipers and stock MC and stock rear calipers" -- not me. I've been through it, I would never use Z32 calipers without the MC and rear brakes. Its a brake PACKAGE, it should all be used together because it works better that way. Like I said, I've already been through this crap before.

- Mike

[Muzzy]

so old_S13...im assuming u had some kinda bad experience with this??
care to elaborate if so??

[old_s13]

"muzzy> care to elaborate if so??"

Well, I already said my peace on why I dont think using a banjo is the right way to do it. Its not that it wont work, its that its NOT the right way to do it. Dont get me wrong, everyone has their standards. There are many things that I've done that now, I would never do again.. we ALL go through it.

BUT BRAKES.. brakes stop your car, so in my opinion, cover your ass and dont be a broke biyatch. 50-100 on 2 or 4 brake lines WONT bust the bank. I have access to custom fabbed teflon/SS lines, they are rubber coated, perfect length, have the strut locators, and the right aeroquip fittings -- I sold the set of 4 for 110. I can still get them if anyone wants, not that I am trying to make a living out of selling brake lines or anything.. I just happen to be able to get pads, lines, brembo blanks, etc.. anyway.

As for the caliper discussion, I think using FRONT Z brakes on an S13 will result in uneven brake engagement. Sure, hit 110-120mph and rail on the brakes and you can really slow down your car. BUT, try jabbing the brakes at 40 or less, kiss your front tires goodbye because they will lockup with absolute ease. There is a reason I went with 245/45/16's in the front.. I wanted maximum brake traction, this means nice wide sticky tires. So, that helped cover up the problem.

BUT, what about the pedal travel? Stock MC is poop, too much pressure not enough feel. There is easily 1" of uselessness in with the stock MC + Z brakes. As soon as you start to rail on them, they lockup.

Then I went with Z32 rears, thinking that will clamp down the back a bit more.. oh .. sure it did! I was exiting a freeway and the back end starting coming OUT! TOO much rear brake bias. That experience was more than enough to tell me: get the Z32 MC.

So I did, and now i love my brakes. S13 with full Z32 front and rear, with MC, with stainless steel lines and proper fittings.. all secured nicely. And working e-brake.

So please, pretty please.. just do things right. I am sure banjo fittings will work, but its just not the proper way to do things.

Dont risk your brakes, your life, or someone elses over something so small.

- Mike

http://www.clearcorners.com/ss.jpg

[Dousan_PG]

wow
now i cant wait to go rear z brakes..haha

i need working ebrake for sure..heh

yeah do it right the first time. :)

brakes are not something to cut corners with.

[black s13]

But my point is that they are saying its not cutting corners, that s15's have that style caliper and use banjos. Do you all not trust stock brakes??


I totally agree with the "do all the stuff at once" thing, my friend only has the fronts, with nothing else and it locks up all the time.

[Muzzy]

damn it!!

why have never heard of that locking up issue!!!
i was jus about to pick up my 300zx brakes and rotors up monday too for $100!!!

damn it!!!

hhmmm...wut to do wut to do...:wtc:

uh oh..post "666" lol

[Dousan_PG]

i find that locking up stuff kinda bs, myself
ive had z brakes for nearly a year, stock MC, stock rear 240sx brakes
i dont have any problems
i can loc,k them up ,but it requires more pressure

daily driven many miles everyday (300 per week and more) and never had issues w/ lockup

then again i also am very cautious city driving

in moutains and such, same thing. never ha da problem

dont let that deter from getting the zbrakes. most people i know only have z fronts and stock MC.

[[email protected]]

Mike, I appreciate your position on safety, but there is nothing preventing your 90deg AN fitting from coming loose and turning either. Here is a test, take a wrench to the crimp end of the 90deg fitting, twist it counterclockwise and it will loosen as well. All that is keeping the fitting secure in your setup is the tightening torque, which is just what is keeping the banjo fitting secure as well.

A "proper" installation requires that the line or fitting be supported so no stress is placed on the fitting, be it AN fittings or banjo fittings. Unfortunately for the 240SX, there is no way to support the AN fitting at the caliper just as there are no aftermarket banjo fittings available with a lock tab.

We had thought about making similar "special" brake lines for the 240SX/Z32 brakes, and they were easy to make and would actually not add to the cost... basically in place of a banjo fitting we would use a 10mm IF to -3AN fitting and a 90deg -3AN crimp fitting. But other than a slightly easier install, there is no safety benefit to going with this configuration...

Originally posted by old_s13
Running banjo setup on Z32 calipers in my opinion, is quite shoddy.

Me? I would not try to save 80-100 dollars in brake lines and risk it.

Think about how most banjo fittings seat on a caliper, they have metal that locks the fitting into place in ADDITION to the bolt that holds it on. With the Z32, there is no metal there to stop the banjo fitting from coming loose and turning, SHOULD the bolt/line come loose.

You are spending money on UPGRADING your car, do it right or just dont do it at all.

Even then, you're going to have people that say "sure its okay to go Z32 calipers and stock MC and stock rear calipers" -- not me. I've been through it, I would never use Z32 calipers without the MC and rear brakes. Its a brake PACKAGE, it should all be used together because it works better that way. Like I said, I've already been through this crap before.

- Mike

[old_s13]

Originally posted by [email protected]
Mike, I appreciate your position on safety, but there is nothing preventing your 90deg AN fitting from coming loose and turning either.

Like I said, we all have our ideas of what is okay and what is not.. all we are doing here is discussing our sides of the matter.. so I appreciate your input as well.

The way I see it is like this:
you are buying lines, you have an option.. banjo or AN fitting. Caliper design? AN fitting. Choice? AN fitting.

My logic is as simple as that. Another example:

You have a headlight, you want to increase light output. Headlight is a halogen headlight. What do you chose? Higher wattage halogen headlight, NOT HID. Why? Because the headlight is designed to use halogen.

Not that the banjo wont work, but it really isnt a hard choice to just do it right.

Besides, even a quick chat with my friend online says:

IxFxI: hey man
Mr X: ?
IxFxI: what do you think of Z calipers with banjo fitting lines
IxFxI: ghetto or not ghetto
Mr X: ghetto
Mr X: do it right
Mr X: people have done it
Mr X: but dude, i just got conversion lines
Mr X: i was like F it
Mr X: its brakes
Mr X: i die
Mr X: if i dont stop
Mr X: for 70 bucks?
Mr X: thats darwin award territory right there dude
Mr X: " it was found that the drivers brakes completely failed due to installation error- he used banjo bolt ends on a caliper that does use them"
Mr X: or
Mr X: "owner of vehicle crashed into a semi truck trailer when his brakes completely failed... scene investigators blame the driver on not spending the 90 bucks for conversion lines for his Z brakes" - more at 8pm

- Mike

ps: I am "ixfxi" just incase anyone was wondering

[black s13]

mike, i understand your point, but think of this, if you bought a brand new s15, would you go home and replace the brake lines?? no, there is no reason to. nissan wouldnt sell something that doesnt work, or is "ghetto" using banjos on z32's has been refered to as ghetto, mostly i suspect because people did it incorrectally, and then just said "this sucks, it doesnt work, i need conversion lines" what im saying is that people assume you use banjos on z32's when you are being cheap/dont want to spend the extra $100, but if nissan does it, it doesnt seem like its being cheap....

[weirdstyles.net]

In support of spl, whats holding your lug nut in place?
Torque alone, and sometimes rust but thats besides the point.

This S15 caliper design is news to me...cool

[[email protected]]

I appreciate your input Mike, and I can understand that customers may not want to have to remove the inverted flare fitting or grind the banjo bolt, so for all customers who purchased their brake line kits from us, we will be offering a "conversion" front brake line kit for $15 shipped. These lines are similar to the ones Mike posted, but instead of having a separate adapter fitting and terminating the line with an AN fitting, the line will be terminated with a 90deg 10mm I.F. fitting which eliminates the need for the adapter. I feel this is slightly better... We should have the lines ready in about 2-3 weeks.

I would just like to offer more info to this topic:

Nissan/Sumitomo and most other calipers (Brembo, etc) are designed with a 10mm thread. There is a certain flexibility for OEMs when it comes to routing brake lines to the calipers, they can either use a crush seal (eg. banjo) or they can press in a small fitting into the caliper to accept flared pipes/fittings. Nissan generally uses a banjo whenever they need a flexible line to install at a 90deg angle, and uses a inverted flare (I.F.) when they need the line to install straight in, or whenever they use a hard line (since it is very cheap/easy to flare the hard line, vs having a special hard line made with a banjo).

On the Z32, Nissan used a hard line that moves together with the caliper, and the hard line is then connected to the flexible line at a point which is properly supported to the chassis with a clip. Since they use a hard line, the natural choice was to use an flared fitting, so the Z32 calipers come with an I.F. fitting pressed into the caliper. BTW, on the S15 there is no such fitting pressed into the caliper. I will try to take a picture of this fitting and post it...

When we installed our brake lines with Z32 calipers on a few 240SXs, we found that the banjo bolt was short enough that it would not bottom out against the flare fitting, so we had not bothered to remove the fitting. But I took some measurements today and found that it is very close, so I can see why some people might run into sealing problems especially if they re-use old crush washers. So either grind down the bolt a little, or remove the fitting from the caliper. Or you can call us and get the front "conversion" lines, the DIY fix is just as safe, but if it gives our customers peace of mind, that's cool with us...

Originally posted by old_s13
Like I said, we all have our ideas of what is okay and what is not.. all we are doing here is discussing our sides of the matter.. so I appreciate your input as well.

The way I see it is like this:
you are buying lines, you have an option.. banjo or AN fitting. Caliper design? AN fitting. Choice? AN fitting.

[old_s13]

Originally posted by weirdstyles.net
In support of spl, whats holding your lug nut in place?
Torque alone, and sometimes rust but thats besides the point.

This S15 caliper design is news to me...cool

Like I said, we all have our own standards, methods, and ways of doing things. I am not going to comment on the S15 because I've never worked on an S15 and have no evidence to say YES or NO, I simply cannot comment until I see it.

I've worked on plenty of Z32's and have had the hardline setup on my S13. Then I went with the current design I have now, it has locators and is full SS lines, I feel its very secure.. and over 4-5 years of hard driving makes me feel even more confident, because for me its been proven.

So, you really just have to do what YOU think is right. All I know is that the caliper is designed to accept a certain fitting. And all I am doing is using the fitting that its designed to use. AND, that is what NISSAN did on the Z32.

I have no good or bad things to say about SPL parts, I have never done business with them so I dont think its fair to say anything about their business -- they seem very cool and respectful in this thread.

- Mike / ClearCorners.Com

[weirdstyles.net]

this thread got railroaded...

I appreciate the technical debate, which is what makes forums awsome...

[black s13]

yeah, i didnt expect this thread to go like this... ha, was looking for something simple, oh well, thats why i love zilvia so much, so many opinions, so much to learn.

[95Blue240sx]

damn good info! thats probably why it leaked on the car i was installing them on, old crush washers and bolt may have been a bit long.

FAQ material!!!

[Muzzy]

well i have ABS and so does the 300zx...so there is no danger of me locking up right?? well as long as the sensor meets up...right?

[weirdstyles.net]

theoretically yes...

if the ABS sensors read different speeds, it will reduce brake force...