How to run Negative Camber [Archive] - Zilvia.net Forums | Nissan 240SX (Silvia) and Z (Fairlady) Car Forum

UCC0279

11-23-2003, 05:08 PM

Well.

The front suspension of 240SXs is strut type, you
are not going to gain negative camber by lowering your
car. No upper control arms or such....... wouldn't gain - camber.

As for reat suspension, yes you will get lots of camber with lowering
however your toe setting will be screwed. Alignment would be a must.

BTW, negative camber eats up your tires but not much as long as your toes are ZERO. It's the toes eats up tires not really camber.
Depends on type of your driving style, negative camber in general is your friend especially on track.

later

andrave

11-23-2003, 05:19 PM

its camber that eats up my tires in the back...
:wtc:

I don't think camber is good for a street car, and you don't need it enough for an autocrosser to make the compromise in tire life worth it.

Tricky1980

11-23-2003, 11:22 PM

i just autoX this season.. well 4 events and all other daily driving with my car lowered with 2deg - camber in the rear, and i have no extra tire wear at all.. they are the same all the way around.. i bought new rims and tires at the same time so they started out all equal... maybe im doing something different and don't know about it.. but i want a little camber in teh front for next season... i need to adjust that!
JaY

knightrider

11-23-2003, 11:53 PM

to answer the original question, to adjust camber without getting camber plates, u can get camber bolts, they are lopsided bolts that give you adjustment, but the downside is you only get about .75 degrees iirc. and they can move when driven hard, like Grants car at DD7, after every run, he would have to readjust them. i would spend the money and just get camber plates.

andrave

11-24-2003, 12:25 AM

camber bolts move all the time, like stated above, I think its better to spring for true camber plates in the front and adjustable arms in the rear... they aren't cheap though.

s0ldats

11-24-2003, 12:34 AM

at first i thought you guys were joking around but i guess you're serious. camber won't put excessive wear on your tires. it is toe that will. just get adjustable arms and some camber plates for the front. after you adjust the camber get an alignment. even if your toe is at 0 right now it will cahnge when you change the degree of camber.

andrave

11-24-2003, 10:29 AM

I think you are mistaken. camber causes wear on tires.
come to my house. check it out.

Dousan_PG

11-24-2003, 10:40 AM

Originally posted by andrave
I think you are mistaken. camber causes wear on tires.
come to my house. check it out.

really? come out to my house

look at -3.5 degrees w/ 0 toe for 4 months (daily at 300miles per week) and 5+ track events and see MINIMAL wear.

or a friends w/ -2.5 daily driven as well with track events with next to no abnormal wear

sounds like your car has other issues.

Var

11-24-2003, 10:40 AM

Originally posted by UCC0279
Well.

The front suspension of 240SXs is strut type, you
are not going to gain negative camber by lowering your
car. No upper control arms or such....... wouldn't gain - camber.

As for reat suspension, yes you will get lots of camber with lowering
however your toe setting will be screwed. Alignment would be a must.

BTW, negative camber eats up your tires but not much as long as your toes are ZERO. It's the toes eats up tires not really camber.
Depends on type of your driving style, negative camber in general is your friend especially on track.

later

240's do gain negative camber in the front when you lower your car. It's not as much as the rear but it's still enough to be noticed. No offense but dont post unless you know what you are talking about.

As far as tire wear. Negative camber doesnt increase tire wear by much, but it still does. And you will notice the inside of you tire wears out quicker because the outside isnt touching. But it's not so drastic. I think the toe change chews up and shreds your tires because the tires are both trying to move in opposite directions ...this is just my own theory not for sure.

Dousan_PG

11-24-2003, 10:46 AM

westboroughpimp: you da man! :bowdown:

wear is minimal with camber
toe kills...FAST
unless its a small amount (like a few MM)

yes lowering car in front DOES camber in. crap i wish i had the specs when i lowered my car from stock to about 3 inches..

hmm the most we could fix in front was -1.5 camber (WITH camber plates on tein HEs)

oh but lowering front doesnt add camber...:rolleyes:

Steeles

11-24-2003, 10:54 AM

Originally posted by dousan36
really? come out to my house

look at -3.5 degrees w/ 0 toe for 4 months (daily at 300miles per week) and 5+ track events and see MINIMAL wear.

or a friends w/ -2.5 daily driven as well with track events with next to no abnormal wear

sounds like your car has other issues.

aaron you need to take pictures of your camber and tire wear for every time this subject comes up :)

Dousan_PG

11-24-2003, 10:58 AM

yes sir

this is the only one i got

4 months
FM901s
5 or so track events..i forget
front left here

most wear is from track..drifting events

i dont have 'street' wheels/tires yet
i will shortly. then the 'test' can really begin.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid60/pf51f926cb708b091a1592c1574055ea7/fc4bde2d.jpg

s0ldats

11-24-2003, 11:34 AM

s0ldats

11-24-2003, 11:37 AM

Originally posted by andrave
I think you are mistaken. camber causes wear on tires.
come to my house. check it out.

come to my house and i'll show you tires used with camber + bad toe. in 1 month my new 2 front tires are bald on the inside. (due to a fight with a curb)

Heartwork

11-24-2003, 01:17 PM

Originally posted by andrave
hahahaha

dude you dont want negative camber, it eats up your tires and gives you a smaller contact patch....
maybe a little bit for autocrossing and such, but all your gotta do is lower your car on the stock suspension pieces to get that.

WRONG
in high performance driving camber change (positive gain) will occur when the suspension travels bump/rebound...when this happens, you will partially lose contact patch unless travel is limited with 0 or postive camber settings....that is why negative camber to a degree is desired

andrave

11-24-2003, 03:47 PM

if your wheels don't fit and you need enough camber to tuck them in, thats not what you want.
and in drag racing you don't want negative camber.
even modern day drifters don't use much negative camber.

and negative camber angles the tire, and that wears out the inside edge faster.

docrice

11-24-2003, 03:57 PM

let me add my $0.02 on the matter. we're agreed that changing the toe of the car causes excessive & unever tread wear. now, just looking at the physics/mechanics of changing camber on a car, it seems that it WOULD have an effect on tire wear as well, agreed? I'm not going to go into technicality or compare its magnitude to that of toe, but we'll just say that if we had no experience with this matter that it seems logical that negative camber would cause interior tread wear. Why is it that some of you "seem" (since we can't confirm anyone's results here) to have considerable wear that is supposedly (trying to be a little nonspecific since there's no certainty here) due to camber while other have next to nil? Consider the tires themselves. doesnt it make sense that the amount of flex in a tire could somewhat negate the camber? So, assuming i'm on the right track here, tread patterns and stiffness, rubber composition, sidewall height and flex would all play a role in determining how much camber really affects tread wear. Is it logical to say that a car with super lo-pro tires and a strong sidewall and tread would have its tires wear significantly more (due to camber, not in general) than a car with taller, softer tires? just a thought to consider before this turns into a pissing match....

let me know if i'm wrong, i'm open to suggestion...but what tire/wheel sizes are you guys running and what kind of wear are you getting....?

Heartwork

11-24-2003, 04:30 PM

Originally posted by andrave
if your wheels don't fit and you need enough camber to tuck them in, thats not what you want.
and in drag racing you don't want negative camber.
even modern day drifters don't use much negative camber.

and negative camber angles the tire, and that wears out the inside edge faster.

partially true that most peopel will only do negative camber to fit wide wheels and they just leave their car at taht and dont drive hard or whatever, but negative camber is still desired whether you wanted to fit wide wheels and automaticaly have to negative camber or not and drive hard/track/auto-x/drift....

again, please read my above post, where camber gain will occur with bound/rebound... i.e. if u had 0 or positive camber and u corner thru a corner the suspension will bound and rebound, the tires will gain positive camber over the initial 0/+ camber settings, actually losing more contact patch, as opposed to negative camber....if u set negative camber to the front tires and go thru the same corner, you will gain positive camber, but will not reach that point where it will be more than 0 degrees camber, thus still maintaining the most contact patch....

Var

11-24-2003, 06:21 PM

Originally posted by docrice
just a thought to consider before this turns into a pissing match....

let me know if i'm wrong, i'm open to suggestion...but what tire/wheel sizes are you guys running and what kind of wear are you getting....?

no one here is having a pissing match. It's pretty civilized compared to some other threads. but..the only thing that would SIGNIFICANTLY alter your tire wear is the rubber compound. A soft tire that would normally wear out quick would also show more noticable signs of camber wear..but again it's not that bad. Look at dousan's tire. It's probably been raped and it still looks cool(semi-cool? maybe not that cool). And it's a soft compound tire. I got stock 15 inch wheels with Falken Azenis. I have Tein front pillow ball mounts which are set on maximum negative camber. Before i got these pillow ball mounts i had ~ 1 degree negative. If i hadnt done so much turning i suppose the inside would have worn out quicker on my last set of tires.. But my tires only lasted 6000 miles anyways. I wanted to milk every last bit out of them before i got a new set. If you are worried about tire wear dont buy good tires. buy some h-rated all seasons they will last you 40K or more. Or maybe you can think of it this way. Get your fenders rolled and pulled and they money you spend on that will eventually(in 10 years or so) pay for itself cause you got another 500 miles out of your tires with 0 camber.

cdlong

11-25-2003, 12:40 PM

Originally posted by dousan36
yes sir

this is the only one i got

4 months
FM901s
5 or so track events..i forget
front left here

most wear is from track..drifting events

i dont have 'street' wheels/tires yet
i will shortly. then the 'test' can really begin.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid60/pf51f926cb708b091a1592c1574055ea7/fc4bde2d.jpg

is it just me or does that wear look uneven. the tread looks a lot thinner on the right side (inside?) and the tread blocks look rounded over. after approximately 5000 miles i would call that excessive (i realize they've been beat on, i'm talking about side to side). even if all the wear is from drifting, the fronts shouldn't be affected that much.

Var

11-25-2003, 01:29 PM

I think the direction of the tire is confusing you. or maybe it's confusing me. Dousan the wear on the right isnt from camber right? it's from turning.

Alright here's another way you can look at it. Maybe the wear is uneven but it's not cause the inside is wearing out sooo much faster. It's cause the outside isnt wearing at all.

Dousan_PG

11-25-2003, 01:32 PM

its from drifting
front tires sliding with the car and turning/countering/etc

that's why i said

4 months AND 5 track events

that's alot of drifting events!

cdlong

11-26-2003, 11:39 AM

drifting or not, wouldn't the tires still wear evenly with less negative camber? the right side is the inside, correct? with that much camber is the outside edge of the tire even touching the ground? whatever, drifting throws this whole discussion off. but i wouldn't call that wear minimal or even. i'd be interested to see your "street" setup when you get some miles on it.

Dousan_PG

11-26-2003, 11:45 AM

street setup/
um..dont have one. car's always ready for track
2 - 3 times a month next year and this past year was averaging about 2 times a month.

car's always ready for fun!

docrice

11-26-2003, 12:03 PM

ya know, dousan, you could probably make some good money selling those tires on ebay to ricers....only take a picture of the outside tread, say they were run lightly on a race vehicle for only a few months....guarentee some idiot would buy them...

cdlong

11-26-2003, 12:14 PM

Originally posted by dousan36
i dont have 'street' wheels/tires yet
i will shortly. then the 'test' can really begin.

Originally posted by dousan36
street setup/
um..dont have one. car's always ready for track.

this is what i was refering to. and you managed to not answer any of my questions :rolleyes:

Replicant_S14

11-26-2003, 12:44 PM

Originally posted by cdlong
drifting or not, wouldn't the tires still wear evenly with less negative camber?

Take a look at the ouside front tire. Under the corner load it goes way positive.

http://www.mindspring.com/~gulag13/images/tire.jpg

Now, that's with stock camber settings. The car is now at -2.5 deg in the front and I still have slightly higher outside temps at the same track. It isn't enough for me to worry with but you get the idea. If I always drove my car in a straight line, then yeah, the neg camber would wear the inside first, but that would take a whole lot of straightline driving to do.

UCC0279

11-26-2003, 09:40 PM

Replicant_S14 and dousan36.

Can't agree with you guys more.
My front tires set at -3 degree camber with 0 toe.
I too do track events. Well, most of them were drifting events.
perhaps 80 % more was used on street as my 240SX is my daily drive
too.

I've never had exessive wear on inner side of tires.
Well, most of people don't do track events, yeah too much negative camber hurts, especially people just don't need to corner.

I'll post up the picture of my front tires as soon as I get time to upload.

later

revat619

11-27-2003, 12:16 AM

my car is set at - 2.5 degrees of camber and i have no tread problems whatsoever and i drive the car everyday.

To reiterate (sp?) what many have already said, negative camber doesn't kill tires, bad toe does.

Chernobyl

11-27-2003, 06:00 PM

This is all relative, and it all depends on how YOU drive. People who drive their cars to school/work daily really have no need for -3deg camber, while people that track their cars often need the camber for what they do. The reason that a tracked car's tires wear evenly with high camber settings is that you scrub a lot more tire off in corners (where the tire is contacting evenly under load) than you do in a straight line. If you run -3deg camber and drive like a grandma, you will wear the insides of your tires marginally more than the outsides.

Now, when people say its toe that kills tires and not camber, they are usually referring to the idiot who lowered his car and didnt get an alignment. What you have now is tires that are not only contacting the ground with just the inside edge, but are also contacting it with the wrong toe angle. Toe changes with camber on our cars! Combine the fact that you are scrubbing the shit out of your tires' inside edges due to bad toe settings with the fact that the outside edge hardly ever touches the ground because you drive like a pansy, and you have a very unhappy 240sx owner. This should all be common sense/9th grade geometry. I can't stress this enough: GET A FUCKING ALIGNMENT AND SHUT UP!;)

RBS14

11-27-2003, 10:20 PM

So if negative camber kills tires...........

Why do both of my rear tires have the same wear patterns (in terms of camber wear, which is VERY minimal) when one wheel is at -3.5 deg camber and one is at -1.5 ?? (yes, my frame is a little bent..... oh well) This is after two drift events...... on the REARS! If what you are saying is true..... why have both of my tires worn in the exact same manners?

You guys just need to get those tires loaded up more often to negate that camber wear you are experiencing.......

Chernobyl

11-28-2003, 01:05 PM

Originally posted by RBS14
So if negative camber kills tires...........

.............
You guys just need to get those tires loaded up more often to negate that camber wear you are experiencing.......

I think you just answered your own question. Your tires are wearig evenly because you are loading them up at your drift events. If you drove like my grandma every day, your -3.5deg wheel would eventually wear more. A tire driving in a staright line will never wear as much as a tire sliding sideways along some asphalt. Hence your even wear, it all balances out with your drifting.

Var

11-28-2003, 03:03 PM

OMG if there was ever a case of beating a dead horse...

JUST DONT DRIVE LIKE A LITTLE BITCH AND YOU WONT HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT CAMBER! AHHHHHHH IM UNSUBSCRIBING FROM THIS THREAD NOW.

ucfz31s13

11-29-2003, 11:48 AM

Originally posted by CrispMofo
I'm rolling my fenders and want my 17X7.5's +15 in the front to look sweet.

I doubt you need to roll fenders for fitment reasons on a 7.5" +15.

z

ridebmx

11-29-2003, 07:21 PM

i dunno, i have -1.5 camber all the way around, alittle toe in in the front, and 0 toe in the back, and have no uneven wear issues, as in issues that would arise concern. like everyone else said, if ur worried give it a try and with shitty tires first, and the toe in on the front i was told is good to have because under pressure the tie rods can flex some or whatever, causing your front tires to toe out, and insight on that? that and most stock setups call for toe in on the front...or atleast from what ive seen

RBS14

11-30-2003, 01:24 AM

Originally posted by Chernobyl
I think you just answered your own question. Your tires are wearig evenly because you are loading them up at your drift events. If you drove like my grandma every day, your -3.5deg wheel would eventually wear more. A tire driving in a staright line will never wear as much as a tire sliding sideways along some asphalt. Hence your even wear, it all balances out with your drifting.

Not so much. If the -3.5 one would wear more driving in a straight line, it would wear more drifting too..... yes you are loading up your tires but rear tire wear (from drifting) usually shows camber wear, and you would think that with almost a 2 degree difference it would show. there is also quite a bit of street driving miles on these tires too...... multiple 3 hour drives on the 5 as well as street driving. Anyways, those are just my thoughts.

adey

11-30-2003, 05:02 AM

Negative camber does wear tires unevenly, but it's minimal compared to inside tread wear due to toe out.

To answer the original question, other than camber plates, you can get adjustable front lower control arms.
(This way you can dial in positive camber on the camber plates, then a ton of negative camber on the bottom (LCAs) in order to widen the track. :) )

sykikchimp

11-30-2003, 04:22 PM

ugg..

the front suspension, on our cars, DOES gain a small amount of negative camber in bump. Since the Dynamic change is so small on the front, you need to run more STATIC camber in the front IF you are tracking your car.

remember the your suspension moves with the car as it rolls.

When speaking of camber, It all comes down to tire temps.

If one part of your tire is hotter than another part of your tire, it will wear faster. period.

too much neg. camber for your style of driving/tire choice will result in higher inside edge tire temps. and your tires will wear unevenly. Too little, and you will wear the outside edge too quickly.

to restate what has been said about 15 times in this thread..

On a Daily Driver that sees no track time, Neg. camber beyond stock WILL cause uneven wear.

Var

11-30-2003, 11:24 PM

I know i said i was gonna unsubscribe but i lied.

Sykikchimp....depends on the driver. if you drive like a 240 is supposed to be driven 2 or 3 degrees camber will do nothing except make your car handle better. On a daily driven cadillac it should cause uneven tire wear. not on a 240!! theoretically if you drive straight or turn like a little bitch, yes your tires will wear unevenly..but that's stating the obvious simply because the outer edge of the tire has no contact with the ground.. in a REAL LIFE situation where there are turns and you are going twice the speed limit drifting onto onramps and into the Mcdonald's drive through, it will all work itself out. My car has never seen the track and my tires get bald outside before the inside even with a 1.5 inch drop and tein pillow ball mounts all the way negative.

docrice

12-01-2003, 07:31 AM

so the lesson of the day, thanks to westboroughpimp, is this:
To prevent uneven tread wear on a 240 with good negative camber, don't drive like a little b:tch.

sykikchimp

12-01-2003, 12:38 PM

Originally posted by westboroughpimp
I know i said i was gonna unsubscribe but i lied.

Sykikchimp....depends on the driver. if you drive like a 240 is supposed to be driven 2 or 3 degrees camber will do nothing except make your car handle better. On a daily driven cadillac it should cause uneven tire wear. not on a 240!! theoretically if you drive straight or turn like a little bitch, yes your tires will wear unevenly..but that's stating the obvious simply because the outer edge of the tire has no contact with the ground.. in a REAL LIFE situation where there are turns and you are going twice the speed limit drifting onto onramps and into the Mcdonald's drive through, it will all work itself out. My car has never seen the track and my tires get bald outside before the inside even with a 1.5 inch drop and tein pillow ball mounts all the way negative.

wtf.. was I typing for my health??

what I said..
too much neg. camber for your style of driving/tire choice will result in higher inside edge tire temps. and your tires will wear unevenly. Too little, and you will wear the outside edge too quickly.

I would like to assume when I say:
On a Daily Driver that sees no track time, Neg. camber beyond stock WILL cause uneven wear.

...that you aren't driving like an ASS on the streets, and endagering peoples lives. No excuses.. there is no way to drive like you are talking without being a hazard on public roads. You will NEVER EVER know the true limits of your capabilities as a driver, and of your car until you hit an ACTUAL track.

Var

12-01-2003, 03:56 PM

Originally posted by sykikchimp

...that you aren't driving like an ASS on the streets, and endagering peoples lives. No excuses.. there is no way to drive like you are talking without being a hazard on public roads. You will NEVER EVER know the true limits of your capabilities as a driver, and of your car until you hit an ACTUAL track.

Excuse me but you have no right to give me any advice on driving . I was obviously kidding about the drifting to get a point across. How many times have you crashed a car? None for me. And i dont endanger people's lives . Now you called me an ASS for no reason. im not gonna come back at you though cause it would take away the use of this thread. Again like DOCRICE said. To prevent uneven camber wear, dont drive like a little bitch.

sykikchimp

12-01-2003, 04:34 PM

Your not going to "come back at me" .. ROFL.. WTF was that whole post??!

excuse ME.. but you OBVIOUSLY implied that you DID drive that way when you said:

My car has never seen the track and my tires get bald outside before the inside even with a 1.5 inch drop and tein pillow ball mounts all the way negative.

obviously you were joking about mcdonalds as an exageration, but don't try to cover yourself like you don't drive that way, cause you just said you did.

I didn't call you an ass. I said:

I would like to assume... that you aren't driving like an ASS on the streets, and endagering peoples lives.

now the only way one could interpret that the way you did, was if they really DID drive like an ass.

this:
Again like DOCRICE said. To prevent uneven camber wear, dont drive like a little bitch

also insinuates that "driving like a bitch" is obeying traffic laws, and simply being safe and curteous. You obviously don't "drive like a bitch" do you? You may not be an ass, but you certainly drive like one (from what you imply in your statements.)

And just because you have or haven't been involved in a wreck, has no bearing on how safe you drive. Keep doing it, and your time will come. You are obviously rather young judging from the naievity in your words. Get that young chip off your shoulder before you kill yourself, and possibly an innocent bystander.

btw - the outside is still in contact with the ground with 2-3 degrees of negative camber. Stop saying that it isn't. It simply see's less pressure, and so less of it is contacting the ground at any given time. So, there is less heat, and less wear.. if you are driving on the street the way you should be.

Var

12-01-2003, 05:19 PM

It seems to be like you're being a jackass on purpose. if you're not then im sorry for misunderstanding your posts. Nothing i said was meant to be demeaning but all your posts are very insulting to me. so go do me a favor and get all your agressions out somewhere else instead of on me. Thanks. To everyone else reading this shit im sorry it turned into a pissing match after all.