crazy fuel economy and power idea...

[mnmax]

been doing some research on fuel economy lately. With all the crazy systems people have come up with since the invention of cars, I've been trying to look for something a little more geared towards fuel injected engines that doesn't require adding something that may potentially cause hydro-lock.

With that said, the hydroxy systems are out of the question. So far the only thing that really stands out would be to utilize some sort of vapor system.

As far as I can tell, the main things to get better economy and power compression is a cleaner fuel mixture burn.

In most cases, 75% of atomized fuel that enters the combustion chamber isn't burned. So, why not squeeze as much power as possible out of every drop of fuel as possible by vaporizing the fuel instead of atomizing it?

I already have my own ideas on going about this with my Z32. Now I just want to see if anybody else out there has tried this procedure or what has worked for them.

[sidelight]

what are you gonna use instead of injectors?

U work in the design/engineer field/ ?

[mnmax]

I'm still planning on using injectors, but they will actually be a dual port style injector. One port for normal start up and warming and the other for vapor. This way, engine design is uncompromised. This allows the engine to be warmed up to proper operating temp using the normal fuel injection system. Once it's up to temp, the EMS will switch to the vapor injection system. The heat generated will allow the fuel to stay vaporized in the system.

And, yes, I have been an auto-tech for several years and finishing my engineering degree.

[joshls2]

do some research on the late great Stanley Meyer. whatever you do, if u manage to make a break-through of some kind and you come up with a system that surpasses conventional petroleum ..DON'T go public with it or else you'll risk being killed and having all of your research and prototypes etc. confiscated by the ptb.

I'd be willing to contribute to this thread with some of my own ideas though later on. I'm no engineer but I'm a visionist. I dream of the days when we won't have to work for the things we need(like food, water, energy and other utilities)but only for the things that we want.

anyway, good thread.

[cdlong]

get a tin foil hat while you're at it. We're already at the point where we don't have to work for the things we need, at least in this country.

That 75% number is bogus. There are literaly thousands of engineers working ceaselessly on improving vehicle mileage. Nothing that grand is untapped. Your best bet, buy a lighter car and don't floor it as much. Or ride a bike.

[mnmax]

I'm pretty sure it's already out there. Yes, there are engineers and thousands of patents out there for these systems, but if you can explain to me why none of them are put into production and why all these patents were bought out by oil companies as soon as their inventors had died, then please let me know... As for that 75%, tell me where else that carbon build up in your engine comes from. Cleaner burn=more potential energy=more efficiency=less emissions=less mpg... Who wouldn't like that?

[EsChassisLove]

do some research on the late great Stanley Meyer. whatever you do, if u manage to make a break-through of some kind and you come up with a system that surpasses conventional petroleum ..DON'T go public with it or else you'll risk being killed and having all of your research and prototypes etc. confiscated by the ptb.

I'd be willing to contribute to this thread with some of my own ideas though later on. I'm no engineer but I'm a visionist. I dream of the days when we won't have to work for the things we need(like food, water, energy and other utilities)but only for the things that we want.

anyway, good thread.

THIS.

Watch The Gashole on Netflix, or rent it.

People either A. Disappearing and reappear dead or B. They buy your designs and they disappear forever, never used again and your not allowed to make another since they now own the rights to it.

Oil comp is corrupt as fuck.

[EsChassisLove]

get a tin foil hat while you're at it. We're already at the point where we don't have to work for the things we need, at least in this country.

That 75% number is bogus. There are literaly thousands of engineers working ceaselessly on improving vehicle mileage. Nothing that grand is untapped. Your best bet, buy a lighter car and don't floor it as much. Or ride a bike.

Sounds like you need to watch The Gashole also.

Some dude got some 50s 12mpg 4000+lb heap of shit to get over 100mpg. The technology to give cars like ours 150+mpg while maintaining our power is out there, and technically untapped.

But the oil companies are too concerned about money to let it out. Imagine a Prius getting 300+mpg and costing the same? Imagine the ZR1 or a H1 Hummer getting over 100mpg and still having the same amount of HP/tq.

Gas companies would not go under but the CEOs would sure as shit lose their 12+ million dollar a year paychecks.

[mnmax]

[/QUOTE]Gas companies would not go under but the CEOs would sure as shit lose their 12+ million dollar a year paychecks.[/QUOTE]

damn right!!

[Nick_04K]

Do this..Save the dying supercar.....And i will give you my left nut.
Please!

[ChicagoS14]

Keep the thread going, ive been wanting to do some work like this for a while. My daily driven SC300 is lucky to get 16-18 mpg. And even though I have a motorcycle for the summer it still sucks through the year considering I sometimes have to drive 100 miles a day between work and various places I have to go to for my small business. My cars MPGs and gas prices are killing my already small pocket.

[frifox]

same goal here but i went about achieving it in a different way... i got a custom ignition system that guarantees that spark arcs 100% of time regardless of rpm's and spark gap. heck, during my simulations even a .500 gap was arcing at both 200rpms and 9000rpms (confirmed with oscilloscope). also, it fires multiple sparks one after another to make sure all gas is burned in case it wasn't 100% ignited by the first arc. right now i'm running .060 gap and my car runs silky smooth. i'll run this for few more weeks and see how it goes and then continue increasing the gap until i start seeing problems. after that i'll play around with adjusting the spark timing to see if i can improve efficiency and power any further.

i drive like a maniac, the alignment is a mess (toe/camber/caster are all different on all wheels, lmao) and got welded diff and still manage to get ~25mpg in city. haven't tested highway mpg yet but i'll do that once i get new coilovers and fix the alignment :)

ps: got the ignition system and interfaced it with my engine for free (had to make a custom dizzy cap tho) since the guy who designed it happens to be one of my best friends and had a few old prototypes collecting dust in the garage :D

[mnmax]

Everything is still in the r&d stage right now. I will keep this thread updated as much as possible. We're all hurting on gas prices right now. Hopefully my partners and myself don't end up like all the others that were trying to do the same thing. lol!!

[EsChassisLove]

Apparently vaporized water helps a lot ;)

[mnmax]

same goal here but i went about achieving it in a different way... i got a custom ignition system that guarantees that spark arcs 100% of time regardless of rpm's and spark gap. heck, during my simulations even a .500 gap was arcing at both 200rpms and 9000rpms (confirmed with oscilloscope). also, it fires multiple sparks one after another to make sure all gas is burned in case it wasn't 100% ignited by the first arc. right now i'm running .060 gap and my car runs silky smooth. i'll run this for few more weeks and see how it goes and then continue increasing the gap until i start seeing problems. after that i'll play around with adjusting the spark timing to see if i can improve efficiency and power any further.

i drive like a maniac, the alignment is a mess (toe/camber/caster are all different on all wheels, lmao) and got welded diff and still manage to get ~25mpg in city. haven't tested highway mpg yet but i'll do that once i get new coilovers and fix the alignment :)

ps: got the ignition system and interfaced it with my engine for free (had to make a custom dizzy cap tho) since the guy who designed it happens to be one of my best friends and had a few old prototypes collecting dust in the garage :D


The ignition system I'm using is just about the same. I first started with getting some pulse type spark plugs and added a plasma igniter. Probably some of the hottest arc's I've seen from a plug. Ended up gaining about 8mpg. That's great in itself to just change the ignition system out. Now, it's just time to improve on the air and fuel delivery.

[mnmax]

Apparently vaporized water helps a lot ;)

Already tried the vaporized water. It's similar to a methanol injection system you see used for drag cars. Only deal with it is that on cold start, it has the potential for hydrolock and when the engine is shut down, it tends to create oxidation in the cylinders which then creates pitting and in turn compression is lost.

[frifox]

The ignition system I'm using is just about the same. I first started with getting some pulse type spark plugs and added a plasma igniter. Probably some of the hottest arc's I've seen from a plug. Ended up gaining about 8mpg. That's great in itself to just change the ignition system out. Now, it's just time to improve on the air and fuel delivery.
hmm, i should give those plugs a try. i'm actually still running my system on the cheapest spark plugs in town i could find, lol... either way, you got my attention now and will continue watching this thread for progress :)

[Bambi]

I feel like the feds are going to show up to my house any minute now for reading some of the stuff on here.

[EsChassisLove]

It won't be the Feds. It'll be someone from Shell or Chevron lol

[ScrapnSidwayz]

I really hope that you stick with this and succeed, I am tired of being fucked over by the oil companies continuously raising gas prices. btw I might have to get me a set of Pulstar plugs if they really do help increase mpg, I have always been skeptical about them.

[cdlong]

Some dude got some 50s 12mpg 4000+lb heap of shit to get over 100mpg.

Good for him. The recent winner of the SAE fuel mileage competition got something like 2500 miles per gallon. Cars are all about compromise, engines as well. Power, efficiency, and emissions are all related. Make one go up, the others go down. I bet that heap of shit was poluting like crazy.

I honestly don't believe Ford would give up technology that would tack an extra 3 mpg on the window sticker of a Focus if they could steal some customers away from Honda. If they could tack on 50, they'd own the world in a year.

[Kylepaschke]

Hulu - GasHole - Watch the full movie now. (http://www.hulu.com/watch/231050/gashole)

[EsChassisLove]

Definetly watch that^

Cdlong- that dude did it over 50 years ago, with shit he picked up from a hardware store. I wonder how much time and money went into that 2500mpg engine...

[ScrapnSidwayz]

Hulu - GasHole - Watch the full movie now. (http://www.hulu.com/watch/231050/gashole)

VERY good movie!

[Kylepaschke]

Watching gashole and getting PISSED.
Let's group buy some vapor engine parts.

[cdlong]

They run on 3.5hp B&S engines and they're generally carbon monocoques. My point was there are a lot of compromises made in cars. If manufacturers had free mileage without giving up safety, emissions, power, chassis stiffness, comfort, at minimal cost, wouldn't they do it in a heartbeat?

Here's the SAE site for supermileage. Care to site your source for the 100mpg truck from the 50s? SAE Collegiate Design Series: Supermileage® (http://students.sae.org/competitions/supermileage/)

[EsChassisLove]

Yea, watch that movie. It, and plenty more are in it.

[pandaroo]

or you could convert your car to lpg or propane. its easier to get to its gaseous state, burns cleaner and more efficiently, than gasoline and depending on were you live its cheaper than it too.

[s14tan]

This thread sounds awesome.

Deff keeping my eyes on this.

[mnmax]

or you could convert your car to lpg or propane. its easier to get to its gaseous state, burns cleaner and more efficiently, than gasoline and depending on were you live its cheaper than it too.

lpg is a great idea, only problem with it is that you would have to swap out the engine altogether. An lpg engine is basically based off of a diesel engine that runs on heat and compression. If you look at most diesel race cars and trucks, lpg is actually used just like N2O is in a gasoline engine. To run purely on lpg, I would hope something is done to the drivetrain of whatever you're running it in to compensate the low power output by the engine to usable torque to the drive wheels, much like how some innercity buses are set up.

[PoorMans180SX]

lpg is a great idea, only problem with it is that you would have to swap out the engine altogether. An lpg engine is basically based off of a diesel engine that runs on heat and compression. If you look at most diesel race cars and trucks, lpg is actually used just like N2O is in a gasoline engine. To run purely on lpg, I would hope something is done to the drivetrain of whatever you're running it in to compensate the low power output by the engine to usable torque to the drive wheels, much like how some innercity buses are set up.

No actually LPG can be used in a normal spark engine.


But did anyone mention that vaporized fuel takes up more room than liquid fuel? Thus it's harder to get the same amount of oxygen in the combustion chamber with the fuel. Also, if you're using heat to vaporize the fuel, this decreases the density of the air/fuel charge, further decreasing the oxygen content.

Direct injection is basically the closest thing to what you're talking about. The higher the fuel pressure, the more atomized the fuel becomes, and putting it directly into the chamber cools the intake charge and eliminates fuel puddling behind the intake valve.

[mnmax]

This is true...

Atomizing or vaporizing, the concept is the same. It's all based on the dispersion of the fuel molecules. The more dispersed, more is burned... For what you were talking about is essentially removing the air all together, but in fact, the goal here is to attain a near perfect burn efficiency of a 15:1 a/f ratio. Even though hot vapors are entering the combustion chamber, it is combined with a charge of cold air.

As far as I can see, you are right with the puddling that would occur at the injector itself if doing a direct port. But, what if it was applied as a fogger system closer to the valves instead? You would still retain the right amount of fuel vapors with the proper amount of air that would mix prior to entering the combustion chamber.

[mnmax]

Ok... So, it's been more than a year since I last updated this thread. You all know the deal, good old life changing events. But anyways, we have everything needed and assembled ready to go into the car. Only thing I'm waiting on right now is to get the LSX swap done in the Z32. I thought I might as well have a fresh motor with good power to start off with.
Since the winter months are coming up, the car will be going under the knife as soon as possible. Still trying to source a VQ35HR 6-speed for cheap. The wife is still pissed at me for buying the motor.

Hopefully I'll have the Z up and running by the time the snow is melted. I'll do my best to keep this thread going as much as possible. Probably the only thing that would hold me back right now would be a deployment to some God foresaken country. We'll see how things turn out...

[jamg]

swat came into my house

disrespected my engineer papers

IT WAS YOU

stay safe OP.

[blo0d]

swat came into my house

disrespected my engineer papers

IT WAS YOU

stay safe OP.

bwahahahaahaaha :hahano::hahano:

[ShakotanGazelle]

same goal here but i went about achieving it in a different way... i got a custom ignition system that guarantees that spark arcs 100% of time regardless of rpm's and spark gap. heck, during my simulations even a .500 gap was arcing at both 200rpms and 9000rpms (confirmed with oscilloscope). also, it fires multiple sparks one after another to make sure all gas is burned in case it wasn't 100% ignited by the first arc. right now i'm running .060 gap and my car runs silky smooth. i'll run this for few more weeks and see how it goes and then continue increasing the gap until i start seeing problems. after that i'll play around with adjusting the spark timing to see if i can improve efficiency and power any further.

i drive like a maniac, the alignment is a mess (toe/camber/caster are all different on all wheels, lmao) and got welded diff and still manage to get ~25mpg in city. haven't tested highway mpg yet but i'll do that once i get new coilovers and fix the alignment :)

ps: got the ignition system and interfaced it with my engine for free (had to make a custom dizzy cap tho) since the guy who designed it happens to be one of my best friends and had a few old prototypes collecting dust in the garage :D

Can somebody dumb this down for me? I'd love to get 25mpg out of my VG S12 :D

Subscribed to this thread because it's fucking awesome and LSx Z32s are my favorite.

[TitanRb25]

So this whole electric motor idea.... gas is used to get the car going and at a certain stage, the electric motor kicks in. This running on a powered source, it can run on X amount of miles per charge. Seeing you guys are more inclined on this than I am, my curious thought would be, why couldn't a car having a system that as one battery is being used up, an alternator is charging up a secondary battery or power source to switch to? This process would repeat over and over. Essentially you could run a car for as long as the battery(s) can hold a charge. At least that is how I see it.

[bova17]

Propane is a very good source of fuel not only is it available anywhere but burns much cleaner than gas, and is pressurized and a vapor, couldn't you use that with good spark plugs and get better mpg?

[mnmax]

So this whole electric motor idea.... gas is used to get the car going and at a certain stage, the electric motor kicks in. This running on a powered source, it can run on X amount of miles per charge. Seeing you guys are more inclined on this than I am, my curious thought would be, why couldn't a car having a system that as one battery is being used up, an alternator is charging up a secondary battery or power source to switch to? This process would repeat over and over. Essentially you could run a car for as long as the battery(s) can hold a charge. At least that is how I see it.

Looked into electrics a while back, to have the kind of power need for it to be a performer coupled with your idea, you would need at least (2) 400V/1000A battery packs(with today's battery tech= 1500Lbs), and couple it with (2) AC drive systems. (1) of those AC motors would have to have the capability to operate at about 15,000 watts to charge the battery packs fast enough before the other pack is close to being depleted. Trying to run something like that in a sports or super car would just be ridiculous. Might as well just upgrade the electric motor and system, also add a couple more battery packs to a prius( enough to have to replace the entire rear interior with batteries) and call it a day.

Not dogging on your idea, just doesn't seem feasible with the batteries we got today.

[mnmax]

Propane is a very good source of fuel not only is it available anywhere but burns much cleaner than gas, and is pressurized and a vapor, couldn't you use that with good spark plugs and get better mpg?

Propane is a cheap solution, but for it to have enough usable energy to perform on it's own just isn't there and you would need a very large tank for it to have the range of a car since it already is a gas and not condensed enough. My idea would just let it be our normal everyday gas that is already dense and transforming it into a vapor for better dispersion when mixed with air to get a cleaner burn.

[mnmax]

Can somebody dumb this down for me? I'd love to get 25mpg out of my VG S12 :D

Subscribed to this thread because it's fucking awesome and LSx Z32s are my favorite.

Hotter and more consistent spark=more efficient (complete) burn... A more efficient burn=MORE POWER!!! , more range, and less emissions.

[S13x88]

Hotter and more consistent spark=more efficient (complete) burn... A more efficient burn=MORE POWER!!! , more range, and less emissions.

I think he was asking how that custom ignition system can be made for his own benefit.

[TheRealSy90]

Just FYI, Brandon Wicknick runs natural gas in his 1JZ Pro-Am drift car, and in his tow rig. Shit's tight and cheap.

[ShakotanGazelle]

I think he was asking how that custom ignition system can be made for his own benefit.

yeah that^

sorry guy, should of specified

[mnmax]

Just FYI, Brandon Wicknick runs natural gas in his 1JZ Pro-Am drift car, and in his tow rig. Shit's tight and cheap.

Nice... I can honestly say that I did not know that. I'll have to look into it. As for his rig, it's something expected, I've seen it done plenty times with buses and large trucks.

[mnmax]

yeah that^

sorry guy, should of specified

It's all good. I want to know what he's talking about as well. But, I still get the gist of what he's getting at.

[jiggysnitz]

May be a little off track but people consistently get over 100mpg from the VW Lupo Blue motion in Europe. There are also big body jags that will do 70mpg in Europe. All this straight from the factory just relying on a diesel engine, no fancy batteries or tricks.

[TitanRb25]

Looked into electrics a while back, to have the kind of power need for it to be a performer coupled with your idea, you would need at least (2) 400V/1000A battery packs(with today's battery tech= 1500Lbs), and couple it with (2) AC drive systems. (1) of those AC motors would have to have the capability to operate at about 15,000 watts to charge the battery packs fast enough before the other pack is close to being depleted. Trying to run something like that in a sports or super car would just be ridiculous. Might as well just upgrade the electric motor and system, also add a couple more battery packs to a prius( enough to have to replace the entire rear interior with batteries) and call it a day.

Not dogging on your idea, just doesn't seem feasible with the batteries we got today.

all good man, just shooting random ideas out there. thanks for breaking it down tho! Definitely seems like a backwards way of operating.

[PeaceOnesxWai]

If i remember my chemistry class correctly, vapors become liquids once under pressure.. so it would make no sense in a combustion type engine due to the 4 stroke cycle. The engine would have to be entirely remodeled to combust vapors so any chance of changing your car to run vapor fumes would mean inventing a whole new motor.


The idea is possible but where would you find readily available vapor gas stations.. plus the gas tank to hold it would be ginormous.

If the idea is out there, Motor companies would have started development. Motor companies and gas stations have no relation whatsoever so whats stopping them from making cars that can do 100+MPG. Most consumer would purchase these car (IE why theres so many Prius)

In the end, fossil fuel is a dying breed and should not be worth investing money to as eventually oil supply will dry out. The smarter way to go electric, diesel, hydrogen.. etc. 50 years from now you would laugh at the use of gasoline to power vehicles (just as kerosene was used for lighting back in 1800s)

[mnmax]

If i remember my chemistry class correctly, vapors become liquids once under pressure.. so it would make no sense in a combustion type engine due to the 4 stroke cycle. The engine would have to be entirely remodeled to combust vapors so any chance of changing your car to run vapor fumes would mean inventing a whole new motor.


The idea is possible but where would you find readily available vapor gas stations.. plus the gas tank to hold it would be ginormous.

If the idea is out there, Motor companies would have started development. Motor companies and gas stations have no relation whatsoever so whats stopping them from making cars that can do 100+MPG. Most consumer would purchase these car (IE why theres so many Prius)

In the end, fossil fuel is a dying breed and should not be worth investing money to as eventually oil supply will dry out. The smarter way to go electric, diesel, hydrogen.. etc. 50 years from now you would laugh at the use of gasoline to power vehicles (just as kerosene was used for lighting back in 1800s)

It is very possible actually, there are guys out there that have done vapor systems with no problem, only thing is that they would run it as a cold vapor system in a carbeurated engine which would be susceptable to puddling(vapor turning back into liquid). Also the fuel in the system starts off as a liquid in a normal sized tank and converted to a vapor in a seperate smaller tank by heating it, which also changes some of the properties of the fuel molecules vs using the cold vapor. So, having to create entirely different engine is unneccesary. Combustion engines can run on vapors and gases, as TheRealSy90 said about a pro am drift car with a 1JZ running propane.

[Juantwo3]

Big brother is watching

[bc.]

but if you can explain to me why none of them are put into production and why all these patents were bought out by oil companies as soon as their inventors had died

They never get put into production because they cost way too damn much to be put on a production car, the sheeple couldn't afford it.

People die because everything dies, you gonna die one day too and I will obviously think that it was because you discovered how to get a 5000lb car to get 100mpg.

THIS.
Watch The Gashole on Netflix, or rent it.
Oil comp is corrupt as fuck.
Maybe I will. But until i do, maybe you should google Gashole debunked.


Some dude got some 50s 12mpg 4000+lb heap of shit to get over 100mpg. The technology to give cars like ours 150+mpg while maintaining our power is out there, and technically untapped.


Reference needed.


But the oil companies are too concerned about money to let it out. Imagine a Prius getting 300+mpg and costing the same? Imagine the ZR1 or a H1 Hummer getting over 100mpg and still having the same amount of HP/tq.


What kind of engineer are you? Just wondering, not trying to be a dick.