Crossbreeding

[Rymel]

i cross-posted this from freshalloy in hopes of getting more help in this endeavor

hello Zilvia! newish here, but not new to the forum. i've decided on a project and it's going to need far more help than i can get from just me and a few buddies, so i decided to ask for input.

first off, a little background. i've had two S13s sitting since november - a black one with no bumper, hood, motor/tranny, and a hammer-made hole on the right side of the dash. the other is red and contains previous car's SR20DET partially installed and its hood, but hasn't been turned over in about 2 years. it's a whole car though in any case. we're going to refer to them as red and black. red stole black's 240 and was in the process of installing his motor when the police caught him and seized his car. it was offered out of court to the person who was robbed, but he didn't want anything to do with the cars anymore. there's a really asinine story after that as to how i've come to own both, but they're mine now. i've had them for a little while, but no time to work on either due to work. however, i've been daily driving a 93 honda del sol that's been dying for some upgrading. i found it with a measly 76k on the odometer, and it was single-owned by an old lady in ct who kept it mostly garaged as her summer fun car. most nissan people would tell me to just sell the sol, but it's grown on me. that being said, let's be honest here - honda upgrades kind of blow. the scene is also incredibly flooded with questionably expensive parts, rice, and theft. so even if i went about it as i chose (D16z6 turbo or K24 leading to turbo), in the end i've still got an FF. built and high-powered, but nothing to make it feel like i've done something special. i also really, really hate honda blat. i realize it's avoidable, but would rather risk it. getting high hp out of a D16 is going to put it close to that noise level.

looking at the second, empty chassis that i most likely was never rebuilding, i wondered if i could make it all fit in the sol. googling, i found the F20C-powered EG hatch (http://www.importtuner.com/features/impp_1007_1993_honda_civic_vti/f20c_engine.html) that had the entire substructure of an S13 put underneath it. so it enforced the theory. then i found the CR-V driveline-swapped AWD sol (http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=1708933) that showed just how little had to be done to make the rear half of the drivetrain fit. it gave me hope. asking friends, most gave the usual i-don't-actually-know-what-to-tell-you line of "you can do anything with enough money" (i HATE that line), but a few agreed that the SR20 can likely fit straight-mounted with some room to spare. and that if the EG hatch can accept the subframes and drivetrain, the sol should too. so here's where i'm at now, which admittedly isn't far:


i'm pretty much going to be following the hatchback's build, except i already know the mini tunnel i have can accept a driveshaft so i can skip that.
i realize i have to shorten the driveshaft. i may just buy one from thedriveshaftshop.com instead.
more likely than not i'll have to weld in a universal transmission tunnel, or cut it from the donor chassis. i'm hoping i can instead get away with minimal pounding out of the existing firewall, but i doubt it.
that being said, i'm going to have to redesign the center console so i can still have a radio and climate control. i am accepting this without question, and i still think it's worth the trouble. i do wonder though, if anyone knows of a high efficiency, small form factor replacement i could possibly sub in.
once i'm finished i should have the entire heart and substructure of a 240 shoehorned into a del sol - engine, subframes, suspension and footwork. being lighter and smaller, it should make for some fun drives.
i've yet to figure out the largest exhaust piping i can fit with it, but i don't think that will happen until it's been installed.
we believe the honda clutch cylinder can handle the job, and the half-size rad will suffice so long as i upgrade to a triple row radiator. i should also be able to retain p/s and a/c, but i have to pick up a ka24 a/c adapter plate first.
turbo piping should be easier to route since there's already holes all around the engine bay :p
to reduce the chances of honda thieves wanting to jack the car upon seeing a fat front mount, we're going with S14 SMICs. they should handle the stock turbo just fine, and in the event i find an S14 turbo it'll also still be fine until i decide to bump the power further. the stock sol bumpers normally can't work with this, but i hit an SUV hitch step bar on a stormy day and have a nice hole in the nose. prior to this project idea i was going to go with a mugen replica bumper because i feel it matches the car better, and it happens to have vents to make this plan work. yea, i know the bumper doesn't help with thieves, but whatever. MINIMIZING theft temptation :D


that's all i can remember for now...can anyone give some constructive input? and please, don't bother telling me it's a bad idea. i know it's a 'waste' of a good 240 shell, but i'm not getting the money back on it and i can't afford 3 builds, so i may as well make something interesting with it. any parts not used will be put up in the market afterwards, however. red's engine future will be in the air as well, i haven't decided if i'm putting back another SR20DET in it yet, or try for the bigger motors.

other things that i should put out there:

one would question the point of swapping it all in, but it's pretty simple. the only RWD honda options i have are NSX and S2000, and the parts are way overpriced. 240 parts are a little cheaper to source, and imo, stronger stock for stock. hell, from what i understand i can get upwards of 400hp out of the block before i have to worry about reinforcement. i can get away with not upgrading for quite a while, if i chose so.
there's little to no true support for RWD or drift hondas, because they're so few and far between. however if i've jumped ship to the nissan court, there's no end to the support :wcc:
the 240/nissan community is a little more educated than the typical H-T/B20VTEC drivel...so it makes it a little easier to get useful information. asking your usual honda heads for unorthodox help is as effective as pissing in the wind. i'm just plain better off asking the donor car's community. the range of cars you guys take parts from is pretty wide, so imo it feels like the nissan community is more open to the wilder/more uncommon swap questions.
i plan to go with larger than average wheels for this car, the common accepted largest size being 16x7. i find 240 people are more open to going big because, well, they're going +1-+3 on average. H-T would just cry bloody rice murder. not very helpful when it's been done and looks good to me. especially if i'm also switching to RWD. i'm likely going with these bad boys (http://www.advanwheels.com.au/wheels/wheel.aspx?id=6) in 17x9 or 17x9.5, or staggered with larger wheels in the rear if it's worth going to it without losing too much tire. also considering gram lights, works and some other brands if i can find a style i like.
i'm wondering however if it's possible to stick with my stock honda rims in the meantime until i can afford said rims though. i know the bolt patterns aren't the same on the 4-lug, so nissan 14s on my del sol would be a dead giveaway. i was hoping the same process used to convert 240s to 5-lug can be used to switch the nissan hubs with my honda hubs for a little while. i realize this is a shot in the dark, but i thought i'd ask.


and...i think that's all for now. input would be greatly appreciated!

[aaron22388]

Im not capable of being much help on this subject seeing as I own a ka24e 240 and just got the car but I can tell you that probobly your best bet on the hubs is to just get some 4x114.3 to 4x100 adapters. I also believe that the sr20 should fit fine as I have seen v8's in them and honestly the j35 is probobly just as wide as the sr20 is long or close anyways.

[driftxninja]

i hope you will get another daily while doing this... its gonna be a long build.

[aaron22388]

Definately hopefully you knew that but Im very interested to see this actually become a build cause the Del Sol is a very capable track car as a fwd I just hope that he can fit some real meat in the rear fenders but Im sure you will need to do fender flares to really get some good rubber in there.

[rcdad123]

assuming you know how to weld and fabricate, it will be a pretty bad ass car once it`s done. look into hot rod chassis builder`s catalogs. you`ll find a lot of prefabricated transmission tunnel designs in them that you can buy or copy. good luck with your build.

[fliprayzin240sx]

Considering how much time and money you'll throw into making a Del Slow RWD using S-chassis underpinning, you might as well just buy an actual rwd car.

I suggest you look underneat an S-chassis and underneat a Del Sol and see how completely different they are. You will need alot of customized suspension pieces to make this thing feasible. And if you go custom parts, how much money would you actually be saving? You'll end up spending alot for very little return.

Theres a reason why nobody does shit like this...its too much work and too much money. This thread is brought to you by Hopes and Dreams

[Rymel]

ugh, working too much. i forgot i made this post and to follow up on it. well, here we go...


i looked into just using adapter plates, and i can't. the lug spacing can be matched, but the center hub is smaller than a Nissan wheel. i forget the exact mm but it's not happening without drilling them out, and thus not worth the trouble. i can sell them for a decent buck anyway as they're uncommon for Honda wheels, so better off not drilling them out.
the V8 you speak of was an old small block Chevy V8, if it's the one from YouTube. looks like it fit fine, yea, but i don't know the power it made.
the J motors physically fit inside the engine bay without any issue, it's hood clearance it completely fails on with the del Sol. even though it's almost identical to an EG Civic's bay, i think the hood line slopes more, and as a result makes the engine stick out quite a bit. as fun as a shaker hood would be, that's just not happening where i live, work and play. stolen in a heartbeat.
re: other motors - i thought about sticking to Honda, and just building what i got or swapping within the family. but i feel like doing something a bit more unique. i accept the headaches this will possibly bring me without complaint.
yes it's cheaper to work the existing block or just build my S13, but i feel like doing something different. i can always continue work on the 240 later.
from what i've seen around the net Sols handle themselves fairly well on the track in standard FF trim, no matter what the motor. i just feel it's ultimately more worthwhile in the end for me to take this route rather than boost/build the hell out of a D/B motor, or spend almost as much on a K24 and just have a motor without anything else OR anything special...like going from FF to FR, and from transverse to straight mount.
for rims/tires: if you check out the Top Fuel del Sol, i'll be stealing their wheel sizes. 17x9.25 and 9.5 i think? i have to see how difficult it would be to fit that much width in the front . i expect to use fender flares, unless the shop is really good at fender rolling. but the inner walls have to be able to clear when fully turned to a side, so they'll probably have to be pounded out. or take a hint from RE Amamiya, and just cut the tubs entirely :P
rcdad, i have checked out the prefabbed tranny tunnels, actually. we're likely using one :)
i have the 240 that currently lacks a motor, i'm looking for a decently priced KA24 to hold it over in the meantime. i'm not 100% set on this project yet, so whatever happens the untouched car becomes the new DD. if not, i've got a line on a beater car i could borrow.
flip, it's good to see you actually read the thread. oh wait, i'm mistaken, because i covered most of what you pointed out. i don't need to hear how it can't be done, that's easy to say. i was asking for input on how to make it happen. if you can't provide that, i don't need to hear what i've already been told, thanks.
i've also gone to a few shops asking about the very issue you bring up. they all gave the same answer - it doesn't matter how different they are, they can be made to fit. it also doesn't matter about wheelbase, and all shops stated the same thing that the subframes can be made to fit, width of original/receiving car doesn't matter. i'm keeping as much of the original Nissan parts as possible, as well as whatever Honda parts are still serviceable for this job. i said that, but i guess you didn't read that part. i also don't believe it's going to need as many customized suspension pieces as you want to lead me to believe. give me hard information otherwise and i'll believe you. i'm not going to believe an EG bubble can take the 240 suspension with just new hat plates and the subframes bolted in somehow, but the Sol can't when the EG Civic and del Sol are 90% identical save the obvious things.
getting back very little in return? hardly. i'd be going from 1.6L NA FF to 2.0L turbocharged FR with the associated Nissan catalogs available to me that the Honda catalogs don't have. there's not a lot for FR on the Honda side of things, but there's PLENTY on the Nissan end. save the recent RDX there's also NOTHING on the factory turbo front. it's also a LOT easier to source parts for Nissan, imo. oh i want bigger brakes? Q45, Z32/33, Skyline, etc. Honda? legend, prelude. that's kind of it. but if you want something really OEM and beefy? NSX, but good luck getting some, and not get hit over the head for it. i think this is well worth the trouble. it may require some planning and removal of parts myself to mitigate shop time, and the before mentioned measuring, but still possible. i'd test fit the subframes myself if i had room (and enough jacks) to lift up both cars. but i don't.
oh, and i happen to like the del slow moniker. nobody ever takes one seriously, but they immediately assume drift beast when they see an S13/14. having it all in an unassuming package makes it all the more satisfying when people crap their pants.


unorthodox motor swaps are largely 'too much work/money' for the end product, but hasn't stopped anyone from making it happen. i remember there was a time when it was just written off as 'don't do it' regarding an RB26DETT into an S-chassis. LS1 swap anyone? MR2s and AE86s are also common candidates for unorthodox motor swaps, i remember reading about a K20-swapped MR2 once, and an F20C AE86. i suppose the guys who swap the AWD from skylines into 240s are wasting their time too, as well as the Soarer/SC enthusiasts working real hard to make Supra trannies work with their V8 motors? the subie heads jumping from AWD to RWD? that by way, Subaru is actually releasing a RWD model now? the second shop i went to used to race a 1JZ S13, because he felt it made better power. he could've used a Nissan motor, but he knew that motor. sure it's work, money, and questionable return, but work does not always automatically translate into money, and value/worth isn't always in an end number. in my case, ending up with a car that's a few hundred pounds lighter than an S13, ~20in shorter in length and all the power and soul of an S-chassis is a worthy goal. sure i'll question the money...but i chose this path, and i want to make it happen. so help me out here, or just don't bother. /soapbox

i also could have sworn i said i wanted useful comments, not 'it's a waste' posts...

[rcdad123]

i think mating the s13 rear subframe to the rear of your sol is not gonna be that bad. i would remove one of the s13`s rear subframe assembly,complete with wheels, brakes, and suspension including the struts and make some kind of a brace to hold the struts in their stock position(angle when mounted in an s13). something that looks like a front strut bar, except it will connect both rear struts to each other. you might have to cut the springs so that you can mock it at "ride height". you have to tack a bar from the strut tower bars to the top of the sub frame so that it won`t collapse. i think starting with the lower control arms even with the ground is a good start. you can also use shorter struts if the stock ones are too long. a plasma cutter would be really handy in cutting the sol`s rear floor pan to mock the s13`s sub frame assembly. just cut little materials at a time. it`s easier to remove material than replacing them. you should brace the sides together before cutting so that your chassis stays square. i think on the front suspension/engine mounting points, it`s easier to just build a sub frame out of square tubing. you could use the sol`s stock suspension mounting holes to mount the new sub frame. the only hard part i think is lifting the sol`s chassis high enough so that you can slide the sub frame in and out safely. good luck and be SAFE.