The Master’s Degree as the new Bachelor’s Degree?

[tricky_ab]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/24/education/edlife/edl-24masters-t.html?_r=2

master’s is now the fastest-growing degree. The number awarded, about 657,000 in 2009, has more than doubled since the 1980s, and the rate of increase has quickened substantially in the last couple of years, says Debra W. Stewart, president of the Council of Graduate Schools. Nearly 2 in 25 people age 25 and over have a master’s, about the same proportion that had a bachelor’s or higher in 1960.

“Several years ago it became very clear to us that master’s education was moving very rapidly to become the entry degree in many professions,” Dr. Stewart says. The sheen has come, in part, because the degrees are newly specific and utilitarian. These are not your general master’s in policy or administration. Even the M.B.A., observed one business school dean, “is kind of too broad in the current environment.” Now, you have the M.S. in supply chain management, and in managing mission-driven organizations. There’s an M.S. in skeletal and dental bioarchaeology, and an M.A. in learning and thinking.

...

“There is definitely some devaluing of the college degree going on,” says Eric A. Hanushek, an education economist at the Hoover Institution, and that gives the master’s extra signaling power. “We are going deeper into the pool of high school graduates for college attendance,” making a bachelor’s no longer an adequate screening measure of achievement for employers.

Colleges are turning out more graduates than the market can bear, and a master’s is essential for job seekers to stand out — that, or a diploma from an elite undergraduate college, says Richard K. Vedder, professor of economics at Ohio University and director of the Center for College Affordability and Productivity.

I'm posting this up to see what others here think. There's quite a few recent grads as well as current students.

Pretty much everything I was told about higher education growing up was a lie or was hopelessly outdated information. Masters = Entry level? thats when you know we need to start tearing shit down to build it back up, beacuse that my friends, is not something thats going to work forever

[FRpilot]

first the bachelor's degree was equivalent to a high school diploma and now master's degree is going to be as common a bachelor's degree? what's next? everyone will have ph.d?

i hope to one day pursue my master's degree despite it becoming a more and more illogical choice for me (like using that money to help on the downpayment for a house instead), but i think it's more of a personal goal for me so even though i don't think the cost/rewards are worth it i will probably still try to go for it. (sort of like dumping all this money into cars).

[simmode1]

This shit is heartbreakingly unattainable for most ppl. I don't even wanna think about the amount of debt you'll need to amass to get a Masters these days. I do have friends that are doing it/have done it. But most of them just plan on continuing to take classes until they die so the loans won't go into default...

I swear the credit/debt system makes no sense to me. I live by cash and owe no one anything. I pay for classes out of my own pocket and if I can't afford it then I don't buy it. And yet the credit system punishes me not amassing debt in school loans and credit cards. Fuck this shit. Thats the reason global economy is sooo fucked up now.

[SochBAT]

I'm with Simmy on this. One, the amount of defaulted loans is ever increasing. Shits not cool. Two, I can't afford that shit! Three, education, as is, is pretty sub-par. Motherfuckers are getting A's in Critical Writing when they can't even fully form a solid sentence without any grammatical errors. WHAT THE SHIT IS THAT?!?!

[bb4_96]

I don't like the way they titled the article. Masters curriculum becoming more specific is an appropriate response to the rise in some career fields. For instance BSME is pretty general. But with some preliminary courses taken one can take graduate coursework in composites/mechatronics/aerospace. It's a good way to make general ME grads stand out against the rest.

In addition lots of sectors are flooded with grads in general degree areas. It's only natural to assume employers will seek the best of the best. With companies dipping into the professional world labor pool more and more expect much more competition. I hope our societal foundation can keep up.

[simmode1]

One, the amount of defaulted loans is ever increasing. Shits not cool.
Dude, can you imagine whats gonna happen if the politicians in Washington doesn't come to some agreement on the US Debt Ceiling and the country defaults on its loans?!?

We'll all suffer horribly, but you ppl who live on credit will be absolutely fucked. Interest rates are gonna increase across the board.

[bb4_96]

This shit is heartbreakingly unattainable for most ppl. I don't even wanna think about the amount of debt you'll need to amass to get a Masters these days. I do have friends that are doing it/have done it. But most of them just plan on continuing to take classes until they die so the loans won't go into default...

I swear the credit/debt system makes no sense to me. I live by cash and owe no one anything. I pay for classes out of my own pocket and if I can't afford it then I don't buy it. And yet the credit system punishes me not amassing debt in school loans and credit cards. Fuck this shit. Thats the reason global economy is sooo fucked up now.

Credit system in this country is a joke. But it's more about lack of punishment for wrongdoing then lack of punishment for not utilizing it. Not everyone should go to school. The thought that everybody should go to school just to go is ignorant. Tell your friends, amassing debt and taking bs classes to stay out of default, to drop out. Thats the reason why aid is so fucking difficult to get. My friend made $65k last year driving a garbage truck. Go get paid and stop wasting time and money.

I'm with Simmy on this. One, the amount of defaulted loans is ever increasing. Shits not cool. Two, I can't afford that shit! Three, education, as is, is pretty sub-par. Motherfuckers are getting A's in Critical Writing when they can't even fully form a solid sentence without any grammatical errors. WHAT THE SHIT IS THAT?!?!

Defaulted loans is ever increasing because people have no sense. If people quit doing stupid shit with federal aid everyone could afford that shit. education in this country is great if you aren't going to school for bullshit ass non-paying degrees. I love painting but fuck if I'm gonna bet my loan repayment against it.

[g00se]

Some internships are requiring Master's degrees now.. its crap. Bachelor's degrees are usually only worthwhile if you have an in demand major, usually engineering.

I have a Bachelors degree in Finance and MIS and due to a lack of jobs and opportunities am about to leave for Army OCS. =(

[bb4_96]

Some internships are requiring Master's degrees now.. its crap. Bachelor's degrees are usually only worthwhile if you have an in demand major, usually engineering.

I have a Bachelors degree in Finance and MIS and due to a lack of jobs and opportunities am about to leave for Army OCS. =(

I think you'll be happy with that decision. Honestly you'll probably sit behind a desk and lead a better life than you would have with the master's. Every day I contemplate going back into the AF. Officer money is fucking retarded and you actually get a retirement. Good luck finding that on the outside. In illinois, if you see a retired service officer vanity plate, chances are it's on a benz or better.

[FRpilot]

military benefits are great.

[g00se]

I'm just saying it stupid now that it now takes 6+ years of school to find yourself in an INTERNSHIP position :bash:

education is a crock.

[bb4_96]

Education is the product of it's environment. The labor market is flooded with professionals entering the workforce. yet every year companies cry to the labor bureau that there are no qualified candidates. If everybody that felt shafted got out and voiced there opinion they wouldn't still be losing jobs to foreign professionals. If one more of my co-workers get replaced by an idian dude I swear I'm going back into the military.

[tricky_ab]

The education bubble is going to pop really soon, and its going to be very nasty when it happens.

What I'm telling my kids...Internships -> Graduate -> Job (with company you interned in, hopefully).

[bb4_96]

^ Internships are great if you can find them. I hope they become more available than now in the future when my kids get to that place.

[Otto347]

Or learn a trade. Fuck college.

[icedsole]

My friend made $65k last year driving a garbage truck. Go get paid and stop wasting time and money.

http://verynoice.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/gif_PREACH.gif

[niscur29]

I have both. My masters took three years and cost me 1 class. My employer picked up the rest. Thats the only way to do it nowadays. The truth of the matter is no matter how much education you have the real world after school is what makes or breaks you. Ive seen kids fresh outta school with honors not be able to handle day to day work. And kids who barely graduated work out better. It all depends on how you apply yourself with that education.

For reference, the employer that paid for my Masters did not adjust my salary once I finished. However my new employer did take my MS into account and now I make 30k a year more because of it. In the engineering field both education and experience get you the dough.

[ronmcdon]

I think employers are probably shooting themselves in the foot if somehow they feel the need to hire M.A. grads over B.A.s. You're really going to limit yourself to the amount of ppl who qualify, especially those who probably have more work exp, and are just as, if not more capable.

Lot of the specialized M.A. jobs are something I feel pretty skeptical about as well. There are M.A. degrees for such things like 'creative writing'. How is that going to make the person more marketable for the job market? Do you really need an MA for that? Very specialized admin degrees are also something I can't find compelling. Are these just fads, or how likely is that job going to be off-shored in the near future? Anything admin can probably be moved to India. It's just risky to invest in an education like that.

Personally I would just stick to tried and tested degrees that will probably be around for some time to come, some line of work you can reasonably enjoy, have job security, and make a decent living. I'm working on my second year in my M.A. program for psychology. After that I'll shoot for a phd in psychology, or md in psychiatry. It's what I see myself enjoying and not something that can be realistically offshored.

[amdnivram]

Yeah its depressing, grad school should be costing me 200k. I can't say im looking forward to it.

[word sux]

the problem now with college is that it in no way "guarentees" you a job. Back in our parents day a college degree was a huge deal but now anyone can get one.


now you actually have to be exceptional to get a job

[bb4_96]

Yeah its depressing, grad school should be costing me 200k. I can't say im looking forward to it.

^Seriously? For what/where?

I think employers are probably shooting themselves in the foot if somehow they feel the need to hire M.A. grads over B.A.s. You're really going to limit yourself to the amount of ppl who qualify, especially those who probably have more work exp, and are just as, if not more capable.

Yes and no. There are more professional immigrants every day.

It's what I see myself enjoying and not something that can be realistically offshored.

Not neccessarily offshored... onshored. Anybody in science/mathematics has probably seen this trend.

[TheWolf]

I'm in nursing now, and they've screwed it up in this educational sense. First you needed a ASN to get employed. now some hospitals are "magnet" hospitals which is like some gov't medicare money they're chasing. So now they're only hiring 4 years. The pay difference between a 2 year and a 4 year educated nurse? $0.50/hr. Yeah. 50 Cents. whoopty ding dong. Paying another 6k for 2 years of schooling to get another 50 cents an hour. Do they teach you any more in those last two years? nope it's mostly theory classes. Infact it can be done almost entirely online through Florida State. So all those nurse practitioners and CRNA's that are going to come into the field and save money for obama care? They just bumped all those people from a masters degree to a doctorate. Seriously WTF. Let alone finding a school with clinicals close to your home. The price since it's all graduate level classes is about $85k for the trip. You make about $10/hr more that what you would have made as a critical care nurse. If you have a BSN you're about 6 classes away from a Pre-Med Degree Bachelors. Just go and become a doctor, it's almost the same price. Make way more.

[tricky_ab]

My wife has her Master's in Social Work and addictions (Specialist). I can't speak on other masteral degrees, but a lot of schools are now fast-tracking MBA programs, and requirements are less strict. Some programs don't even require work experience anymore which I think is kind of dumb. I can't imagine being able to participate in any sort of class discussion without anything to draw from.

[bb4_96]

I'm in nursing now, and they've screwed it up in this educational sense. First you needed a ASN to get employed. now some hospitals are "magnet" hospitals which is like some gov't medicare money they're chasing. So now they're only hiring 4 years. The pay difference between a 2 year and a 4 year educated nurse? $0.50/hr. Yeah. 50 Cents. whoopty ding dong. Paying another 6k for 2 years of schooling to get another 50 cents an hour. Do they teach you any more in those last two years? nope it's mostly theory classes. Infact it can be done almost entirely online through Florida State. So all those nurse practitioners and CRNA's that are going to come into the field and save money for obama care? They just bumped all those people from a masters degree to a doctorate. Seriously WTF. Let alone finding a school with clinicals close to your home. The price since it's all graduate level classes is about $85k for the trip. You make about $10/hr more that what you would have made as a critical care nurse. If you have a BSN you're about 6 classes away from a Pre-Med Degree Bachelors. Just go and become a doctor, it's almost the same price. Make way more.

I know ER nurses that put away $40+ an hour. Does it matter how long they went to school?

[BongateerZ32]

the people that think it really costs them 200k out of their own pocket are not doing it right. and of course 100k in debt seems like a lot when you make 10 bucks an hour, but with the income afterwards its manageable; especially when your employer is willing to pick up part or all of the tab. debt is not so black and white these days. dont throw away a valuable tool out of ignorance.

i personally think there's nothing wrong with people having to be smarter to get ahead. with the population growing, sorta smart isnt smart enough these days. a real winners gonna rise to the top. not the top that some high school counselor told them about, but the real top above other real life people that work as hard as they do. if it was easy, wouldnt every one be on top?

that means the country's population as a whole is improving. which is good isnt it? you can move to a shit hole country where every one is uneducated, and a bachelors makes you a genious. you can also compare yourself to a bum and call yourself rich.

as for being happy making 65k a year driving a literal shit box, that may be great for some; but not everyone. not knocking your buddy, as the world needs blue collar workers. who else will be the white collar workers' minions?

the problem now with college is that it in no way "guarentees" you a job. Back in our parents day a college degree was a huge deal but now anyone can get one.

now you actually have to be exceptional to get a job

you mean you gotta be better than other people who want the same job as you? AND they went to college too? damn, i thought we didnt have to work hard anymore...

a wise man once said:
"losers always whine about doing their best, winners go home and fuck the prom queen."

[ZenkiKid]

This is why i strayed away from getting my masters or going into law school. Alot of the people who do such things are doing it to avoid the shitty ass job market thats out there right now but arent realizing that they should be gaining some real world field experience. Granted there are intern positions out there but most of the time they just make you do bitch work with not alot of important content for you to pick up.

After I got my bachelors I decided that I am gonna test the shark infested waters known as the CA job market. So far nothing but at least I am going through this BS now rather than when I am closer to 30 with an almost 100k debt and not knowing how I am gonna pay for it.

[TheWolf]

I know ER nurses that put away $40+ an hour. Does it matter how long they went to school?

Depends on the hospital and location. California obviously pays more because it costs more to live and they want only 4 years. A trained ER nurse with 3 years exp, CERN, ACLS, and PALS certs could easily pull 25-30/hr here in florida. That's before differential/OT. Nights is about $3+ and weekends is $4+. So it's quite possible to pull good pay on a saturday night in the ER. Yes you could be doing that with an ASN degree but they're really pushing for the BSN now. At the same time, you're dealing with drunks, idiots, meth addicts, homeless, etc. It's no cake walk. Don't go into nursing for the pay, you'll be deeply disapointed.

[murda-c]

This depresses me as i havent even started college yet.

[Silverbullet]

This depresses me as i havent even started college yet.

don't be. Most participants in this thread saw some internet video about why college is a scam and took it to heart. Others are just haters.

Study something that will have a good return and put effort into finding and job and anyone would do fine. Where you live, there are plenty of jobs and is hardly affected by the economic down turn.

[bb4_96]

This depresses me as i havent even started college yet.

Just go to school for something that makes sense. Think about your career after school and decide if its gonna work for you. Just like anything If you do your research your less likely to get burned. If you go to school for accounting, and don't plan on getting your master's, good luck finding a job. If you go to school for something manufacturing related good luck staying unemployed. CNC operators always in demand, engineers always in demand, chemists, scientists etc, always in demnd.

[tricky_ab]

don't be. Most participants in this thread saw some internet video about why college is a scam and took it to heart. Others are just haters.

Study something that will have a good return and put effort into finding and job and anyone would do fine. Where you live, there are plenty of jobs and is hardly affected by the economic down turn.


Common...I don't get that vibe here.

Anyways College is good when you have a plan. Education's bubble will burst before long at this rate---might as well be in a race with commercial real estate off that cliff. I generally blame the admins and other cash-in folk that twisted the thing any number of ways from elementary on up these past many years----different issues at each level but the same kind of assholes selling it down the river.

[inopsey]

Just go to school for something that makes sense. Think about your career after school and decide if its gonna work for you. Just like anything If you do your research your less likely to get burned. If you go to school for accounting, and don't plan on getting your master's, good luck finding a job. If you go to school for something manufacturing related good luck staying unemployed. CNC operators always in demand, engineers always in demand, chemists, scientists etc, always in demnd.
that is some bad advise. if you go to school to take 'classes that interest you' with no end job in site you will end up with a huge debt and no job. if you decide to go to university make sure you have a goal and a possible job in mind. everything you do at university should be focused on the end goal(employment). i agree 100% with the op networking (internships) are way more productive to produce a good job than unfocused learning or a degree with no network. thats the nice thing about trade schools and other diploma collages, they find you work and internships to complete the programs, and the network you need to find a job and stay in the industry.

at least in canada, you do not want to be a scientist/chemist; minimum education is a Phd. there is also no funding for this stuff here, all the money (multi millions) are provided by private corporations like monsanto and in the last 10 years have caused such a backlog of research talent that it is impossible to get a job in the sciences without a Phd. the government here is retarded to anything scientific and has been cutting funding to all research for the last 10 years. even Phds are having a hard time finding post doc work, let alone the full filling work that made them want to do a Phd in the first place. everyone in the scientific research field walks around their term jobs (continuing perm. positions dont exist up here in the sciences) on eggshells because they know there are a stack of resumes a few phone books high waiting to replace you.

[axiomatik]

I think many of you are reading this the wrong way. Back in 1980, for a lot of jobs, having a bachelors was a way for you to stand out in the application process. Nowadays, almost any office job outside of secretarial is looking for a bachelors degree of some sort. Your BA in English isn't special anymore. Now a Masters is a way to stand out. Also, the recession is making a lot of people go back to school because of the horrible job market, so more people are getting Masters than ever.

Also, you can get a Masters degree for a lot less than some of you think. I received my BSME from Arizona State in 2003, and then went to Stanford for an MSME. I completed my program at Stanford in one year, fully financed via student loans. I finished with less than $50k in student loans, with a Masters degree from one of the most prestigious universities in the country. Now, not everyone can complete the program in one year. It's hard as hell and very few people try to finish in one year, but it saved me money because I only had to pay room & board for one year versus 2 (the cost of the program is roughly the same whether it takes you one year or two).

$50k in student loans may be a lot, but I am pretty sure I'll make it up in increased earnings over my lifetime. In fact, I may already have.

[PNgo12]

This thread worries me lol. I'm starting my second year this upcoming fall and I'm still undeclared. I'm not even close to figuring out what I want to major in.

[zeitgeist]

It STRONGLY depends what degree you get.

If you get what everyone else has (MBA cough cough) and dont have the experience to back it up, you're probably gonna be waiting tables for a while.
Like someone else here said, you need a plan before you start school.
Work while you're in school and stay at that same company throughout your 4-5 years, so by the time you graduate you are often able to have the foot in for a management position

And when it comes to a Master's, the school name means more than anything IMO. And at school is the best time to network!

And whoever spent 200k on a college education messed up somewhere LOL. Hell Im going to MIT for their logistics program and I wont even spend anywhere near that

It's not what you know, its who you know. This is how you move up in the world quickly

[WanganRunner]

don't be. Most participants in this thread saw some internet video about why college is a scam and took it to heart. Others are just haters.

Study something that will have a good return and put effort into finding and job and anyone would do fine. Where you live, there are plenty of jobs and is hardly affected by the economic down turn.


^^
This is true.

MBA's are basically a prerequisite in my line of work, and so I got one. I did it part-time (i.e. worked while I did it), and so my debt load was lower (didn't borrow room & board), and I also had 3 years of work experience that I wouldn't otherwise have had. I ended up with about $40k in loans, which I should be able to cover in full my first year out with the post-MBA income differential. I've actually already got a job that should do that, but I don't want to count my chickens, etc.

In the right field, grad degrees are definitely worth it.


EDIT: I need to preface this with WHICH MBA you're getting is enormously important. Top 25 only, otherwise don't bother. Any program that will let you in without 2-4 years of really solid work experience is probably garbage. Career changers be wary, it's best to have that 2-4 years in the same field you want to work in after you graduate. If you want to be an investment banker, then top 10 programs only.

[duffman1278]

There's a masters in leadership, creative writing ( as mentioned), communications, social work. No offense to anyone but these are basically useless degree's and a waste of time and money. There's more out there but people might feel offended.

People today for some odd reason believe that what they were told as a kid was that ANY college degree they get is going to lead them to success. But people need to stop being lazy and go to school to actually learn not just find the easiest major they find so they can party and tell their parents they're getting a college degree.

I've seen people with master's degree's in the science and engineering fields and they have really good and secure jobs. And they're able to find jobs fairly easily. Undergrad is a bit difficult but not too bad.

[omgRWDgoodness!]

education in this country is great if you aren't going to school for bullshit ass non-paying degrees. I love painting but fuck if I'm gonna bet my loan repayment against it.

Just go to school for something that makes sense. Think about your career after school and decide if its gonna work for you.
These statements really hit close to home. I laugh quietly to myself when I see some of those trendy art majors walking around campus, long on arrogance but short on substance. I also notice that a lot of chicks are into psychology degrees, and ironically it always seems to me that they are in one way or another crackpots themselves.

Oh well, each one is another person I don't have to compete against in the job market I guess...

11:11 make a wish!

[theicecreamdan]

There is still stuff out there for art majors. I work for a guy that majored in ceramics, not sure what his boss did in college, but its related. They're not rich, but they're happy.

Moral of the story: Study something that actually interests you, stand out above everybody else, and make it fit into your life somehow. And don't be a hater, because that's energy you could be spending on improving yourself.

[bb4_96]

^People pursuing art and what they love is the best thing in the world. But when you borrow 50k+ to pursue it and can't hack it after the fact. There-in lies the trouble.

I've never seen one of these creative writing degrees curriculum, but I have to wonder how someone teaches a person to be creative? The same with art. You can teach someone to make something, but how can you teach someone to make something new/original? I dunno with those degrees I think at some point it comes down to talent and motivation. If your talented you can be a little more lazy than others because if you're good people are going to notice. But if your lazy and lacking in creative juices trying to ride a degree isn't going to get you anywhere.

But that's the same with every degree. If you do the bare minimum people are going to see it. If you don't pursue things it shows. Some people feel as though a degree will get them out of hard work. When the opposite should be true, a degree should be a testament to that fact that you can bust your ass like that every day for your employer.

And to everyone that's going to school undecided... just do something. I really wanted to get into civil engineering when I left high school. Unfortunately there are no schools for civil in my area and i wasn't ready to borrow money for my education. So i took my scholarships and went to local cc. While there I decided on going to a local university for mechanical engineering instead. It's something I find interesting but ultimately not what I wanted it to do. I made that compromise because It was the adult thing to do and I'd still be in school if I had stayed undecided for 8 years. If I ever get bored I'll have more than enough bank to go back to school.

Moral of the story: Not even little kids get exactly what they want all the time. This is capitalist america, go to school for something you find tolerable and marketable and be done with it. Hobbies are interests for the weekend.

[bb4_96]

that is some bad advise. if you go to school to take 'classes that interest you' with no end job in site you will end up with a huge debt and no job. if you decide to go to university make sure you have a goal and a possible job in mind. everything you do at university should be focused on the end goal(employment). i agree 100% with the op networking (internships) are way more productive to produce a good job than unfocused learning or a degree with no network. thats the nice thing about trade schools and other diploma collages, they find you work and internships to complete the programs, and the network you need to find a job and stay in the industry.

at least in canada, you do not want to be a scientist/chemist; minimum education is a Phd. there is also no funding for this stuff here, all the money (multi millions) are provided by private corporations like monsanto and in the last 10 years have caused such a backlog of research talent that it is impossible to get a job in the sciences without a Phd. the government here is retarded to anything scientific and has been cutting funding to all research for the last 10 years. even Phds are having a hard time finding post doc work, let alone the full filling work that made them want to do a Phd in the first place. everyone in the scientific research field walks around their term jobs (continuing perm. positions dont exist up here in the sciences) on eggshells because they know there are a stack of resumes a few phone books high waiting to replace you.

I'm pretty sure I said not everyone should go to school earlier in this thread. Who cares as long as you do something to make yourself marketable. Garbage truck drivers make way more than homeless canadians.

[inopsey]

I'm pretty sure I said not everyone should go to school earlier in this thread. Who cares as long as you do something to make yourself marketable. Garbage truck drivers make way more than homeless canadians.

truck drivers also make way more than scientists up here....