s14 is a lot stiffer than s13? [Archive] - Zilvia.net Forums | Nissan 240SX (Silvia) and Z (Fairlady) Car Forum

old_s13

11-03-2003, 01:50 PM

i think if you are going to compare the s13 and s14 chassis, you need to compare the s13 coupe with the s14.. thats a bit more fair.

as the owner of an s13 and also having an s14 in the family, i think the s14 feels different. the chassis does feel a bit more reinforced, but at the same time i also feel a bit more weight when driving that car.

the s13 really has a light tossable feel to it.

crioten

11-03-2003, 02:04 PM

part of the reason i love my s13 so much is because of that lovely tossable lightweigt feel, for some reason, driving the s14, it feels like a ton of bricks compared to the s13

-glen

nokeone

11-03-2003, 02:19 PM

agreed...the s14's i have attempted to drift in felt like boats compared to my coupe..then again given modification discrepancies it's an unfair comparison but it really did feel like i was driving a larger, bulkier car..

but i have heard the same thing...S14 are considered by most pros to be the better drift car...s13 supposedly understeers a lot more easily..s14 more predictable..

sykikchimp

11-03-2003, 02:57 PM

I would definately have to disagree that the s14 STOCK would be stiffer than an s13 with a proper roll cage.

nokeone

11-03-2003, 02:59 PM

which years of the S14 had the holes drilled in the frame and chasis?..i can't imagine that helps for regidity..lol..

RobsNismO

11-03-2003, 03:33 PM

man this is a little disappointing... now im thinkin about getting a s14 instead, my original choice was the s13 since you can get them cheaper.

Dousan_PG

11-03-2003, 03:36 PM

Originally posted by RobsNismO
man this is a little disappointing... now im thinkin about getting a s14 instead, my original choice was the s13 since you can get them cheaper.

get what you like more

and FIX YOUR SIG

(O=O/sil15-80\OO) <--beautiful.

should be

(O=O/sil15-80\O=O) <--beautiful.

you forgot the right side =

or just
1580

because s15 is silvia (understood) so no need to say sil15
just 1580

RobsNismO

11-03-2003, 03:39 PM

oh yea thanks lol

sykikchimp

11-03-2003, 03:50 PM

Dude, drive them. Then make your choice. There is nothing about the s13 chassis that can't be fixed with the appropriate hardware. ;)

Dousan_PG

11-03-2003, 03:54 PM

Originally posted by sykikchimp
Dude, drive them. Then make your choice. There is nothing about the s13 chassis that can't be fixed with the appropriate hardware. ;)

yes that's 100% true. the ONLY disadvantage is you'll need to play 'catch up' a bit to get to the s14 type of stiffness

but all in all, 90% of the people out there dont care and it doesnt matter. get what you like more. style, handling and weight wise..choose your favorite and get it.

RobsNismO

11-03-2003, 04:02 PM

right now im thinkin of getting the s14, with the mean eyes, but what is it that can specifically be done to the s13 to be about as good? do you know what part you need to get? i dont want roll bars in my car. i know about those strut bars, rear struts, and the ones that are below the car, but what else is there that will significantly stiffen the car?

ZOLTAN

11-03-2003, 04:14 PM

Having had a s13 coupe and now a s14, I can without a doubt say that the s14 is considerably stiffer; stock for stock.
Now, to me the weight difference between the two was quite obvious.
The s14 feels heavier.
But, in my opinion the added weight is a good trade-off for more rigidity.

Ask yourself this question.
How much money do you want to put into it?
If I were building a "drift" car, I would go s13.
Why? If I smash it it's cheaper and easier to get a new one to swap everything into.

.Eddie.

RBS14

11-03-2003, 04:25 PM

Yea, S14's feel stiffer than S13 coupes but it's not that big of a deal to most people. It is to me, that's why i put a roll bar in my S14 which made it even better. Weld-in baby! I really should finish it some day. :coolugh:

However S13's are still good chassis. I kind of got the feeling from a few people in this thread that S13 chassis weren't worthy because S14 chassis are stiffer. That doesn't really matter. A ferrari has a stiffer chassis than a S14 but if you wanted the S14 it doesn't make sense to get the ferrari because its stiffer. See what i'm saying? Anyways get what want, if you have a soft spot for S13's in your heart, get one and deal with the chassis stiffening products when you get around to it. :)

RobsNismO

11-03-2003, 04:28 PM

yea well at this point, F*** the 1580, im gettin a s14 mean eye, i can afford it anyways.

nokeone

11-03-2003, 04:37 PM

Originally posted by RBS14
Yea, S14's feel stiffer than S13 coupes but it's not that big of a deal to most people. It is to me, that's why i put a roll bar in my S14 which made it even better. Weld-in baby! I really should finish it some day. :coolugh:

yes you do!!!..and paint it...hmmm..what color?..florescent green..lol..

but yeah..we have sooooo much work to do on the cars..as soon as the rain passes we really need to get busy...we need new Kaaz Oil...the do oil changes on cars and diffs...tighten up suspension..i need an alignment..new tires..get your frame shit..arrgghhh...sooooo much stuff...no money and no time...:bash:

tsunami0ne

11-03-2003, 05:17 PM

Originally posted by nokeone
yes you do!!!..and paint it...hmmm..what color?..florescent green..lol..

but yeah..we have sooooo much work to do on the cars..as soon as the rain passes we really need to get busy...we need new Kaaz Oil...the do oil changes on cars and diffs...tighten up suspension..i need an alignment..new tires..get your frame shit..arrgghhh...sooooo much stuff...no money and no time...:bash:

you need kaaz oil? I have kaaz oil lying around ($44) :)

nokeone

11-03-2003, 05:28 PM

Originally posted by tsunami0ne
you need kaaz oil? I have kaaz oil lying around ($44) :)

haha..thanks..but i get it wholesale direct from Kaaz...MUCH cheaper then $44.00..perks of the whole owning an import shop thing..;)

s14xman

11-03-2003, 05:35 PM

Originally posted by RobsNismO
someone said that he saw a video, where this professional drifter said that the s14 was stiffer, and had better response, than an s13 with roll cage, and sway bars. so it leads me to think that the s14 is that much more stiffer, is this true?

They stated this fact in the Drift Bible. If you havnt seen it yet i highly recomend buying it. The only thing they said was that the s13 had to much understeer.

the240sxer95

11-03-2003, 06:01 PM

myself i think i am going to be getting a fastback, i USED to have a s14 zenki which was a great car and a very fun car! but i like the idea of the fastback being lighter, cheaper and more tosible :)

tsunami0ne

11-03-2003, 06:17 PM

Originally posted by nokeone
haha..thanks..but i get it wholesale direct from Kaaz...MUCH cheaper then $44.00..perks of the whole owning an import shop thing..;)

:D drat. I used to get it for $33.50 too :mad:

holisticbeatz

11-03-2003, 07:23 PM

Originally posted by s14xman
They stated this fact in the Drift Bible. If you havnt seen it yet i highly recomend buying it. The only thing they said was that the s13 had to much understeer.

Don't forget, the S14 Tsuchiiya was driving in the Drift Bible was fully hooked up on suspension goodies.

the240sxer95

11-03-2003, 07:42 PM

the price difference on the s13 and s14 is pretty big to (usually) and with the money saved you could put that money into stiffness :) right?

thx247

11-03-2003, 07:58 PM

just going on the demographic evidence I've seen at meets and whatnot

how many of you guys would even know what a stiffer chassis feels like? If I swapped bushings in my s13 do you think you'd be able to feel it and tell me that there were different bushings in the car? Just like if I added a strut tower brace to the front and rear- do you think you'd be able to say without knowing its there that I had one?

Unless floor boards are falling off the car ala FnF style I don't think many people here would be able to comment very accurately on the chassis stiffness.

So lets assume I am correct for a second and what are we left with? A more expensive heavier car. Imo, get the cheap S13 if you have to have a 240 to drift or whatever. Its not like the car is losing value anymore anyway. Drive it, see how you like it. Appreciate the savings you have and then worry about something so vauge as chassis stiffness.

Dousan_PG

11-03-2003, 08:06 PM

Originally posted by thx247
just going on the demographic evidence I've seen at meets and whatnot

how many of you guys would even know what a stiffer chassis feels like? If I swapped bushings in my s13 do you think you'd be able to feel it and tell me that there were different bushings in the car? Just like if I added a strut tower brace to the front and rear- do you think you'd be able to say without knowing its there that I had one?

Unless floor boards are falling off the car ala FnF style I don't think many people here would be able to comment very accurately on the chassis stiffness.

So lets assume I am correct for a second and what are we left with? A more expensive heavier car. Imo, get the cheap S13 if you have to have a 240 to drift or whatever. Its not like the car is losing value anymore anyway. Drive it, see how you like it. Appreciate the savings you have and then worry about something so vauge as chassis stiffness.

yeah i can

i drove both cars. STOCK AND STOCK. very very different.

also tried both at the track. very different type of cars.

and comparing BUSHINGS and chassis is night and day. your talking the WHOLE CAR verses a couple bushings? hahahaha..get real. if you blind fold me and put me in either car, i cou ltell you which is s14 and which is s13 without a problem.

strut tower braces? at the track. GOD YES. have you removed it and tried with or without one? i have. i even did it DURING the day to see how it feels? did you try that yet?

have you ACTUALLY driven a s14 or just talking out of your ass?

stop reading books and start trying things first hand, mr.-stomp-on-the-gas-to-stop-understeer.

ZOLTAN

11-03-2003, 08:38 PM

Auto-x one each and then talk shit.
No contest, the s14 is stiffer.
Even street driving makes it very clear.

"vague as chassis stiffness"
If chassis stiffness was unimportant, manufactures wouldn't spend millions of dollars developing cars. Simple fact is it's extremely important.
Also, why do you think constructors spend so much time strengthening a chassis when they are building race cars.
Hell, the stronger a car is in the first place, the stronger it's going to be if you strengthen it further.

"demographic evidence I've seen at meets and whatnot"
I won't even comment on this.

.Eddie.

RobsNismO

11-03-2003, 11:16 PM

yea, and that is why im getting an s14 for now, cause its stiffer, but ill still drive both to make sure. i ve driven both, but they were modified, and i didnt really get to drive it much, or even near to its ability.

RBS14

11-04-2003, 12:00 AM

Originally posted by dousan36
yeah i can

i drove both cars. STOCK AND STOCK. very very different.

also tried both at the track. very different type of cars.

and comparing BUSHINGS and chassis is night and day. your talking the WHOLE CAR verses a couple bushings? hahahaha..get real. if you blind fold me and put me in either car, i cou ltell you which is s14 and which is s13 without a problem.

strut tower braces? at the track. GOD YES. have you removed it and tried with or without one? i have. i even did it DURING the day to see how it feels? did you try that yet?

have you ACTUALLY driven a s14 or just talking out of your ass?

stop reading books and start trying things first hand, mr.-stomp-on-the-gas-to-stop-understeer.

Ouch!!!

Another one bites the dust. Damn Dousan, i'm gonna have to start swinging from your nuts too if you keep "owning" people like this. :aw: Hahaha

Wait so you're telling me if i'm understeering because i don't have enough weight on the front tires, getting on the gas and taking even more weight off the front tires won't get me pointed in the right direction?

Nevermind, lets not get into that one. :o

doriftokouki

11-04-2003, 12:49 AM

A friend and I got into a discussion one day about this, we both own Kouki S14's and have driven S13's before, I noticed a difference right away, I would much rather drift an s13 then a s14 so let me get that out of the way. He mentioned to me that the s13 was the more drift friendly car, even though Nissan competed in certain classes with the s13 for grip the s13 was also very drift friendly and it wasnt made for a certain "purpose" it was just a well balanced car in most aspects. The s14 on the other hand is when Nissan was focused on a competitive car to place in gt300 class for jgtc, the s14 was just designed to be well balanced for grip driving and to stay competitive, thats why you notice a difference in each chassis, zenki s14's have the holes drilled and kouki s14's do not, if you want a good comparison, drive a stock S13 and then a stock kouki S14, that is when you will notice the difference. From what I understand people started to complain about the handling of the s14's compared to the s13's, the s14's were not as drift freindly, so then we see the s15, a God like s chassis car, very stiff, excellent handling, very nimble and very drift friendly, pretty much best of both s13 and s14 cars combined, but then Nissan decided not to bring an s15 240sx here to the states :rolleyes: maybe we dont deserve it? Anyways, flame away, im waiting :)

sykikchimp

11-04-2003, 08:38 AM

Originally posted by dousan36
yeah i can

i drove both cars. STOCK AND STOCK. very very different.

also tried both at the track. very different type of cars.

and comparing BUSHINGS and chassis is night and day. your talking the WHOLE CAR verses a couple bushings? hahahaha..get real. if you blind fold me and put me in either car, i cou ltell you which is s14 and which is s13 without a problem.

strut tower braces? at the track. GOD YES. have you removed it and tried with or without one? i have. i even did it DURING the day to see how it feels? did you try that yet?

have you ACTUALLY driven a s14 or just talking out of your ass?

stop reading books and start trying things first hand, mr.-stomp-on-the-gas-to-stop-understeer.

I don't think he was talking directly to you Aaron. Just in general, he was making a point that most of the "Intarnet Drifta's" given either car, would never know the difference. I believe we all should know by now that you are definately not a poser.

I can tell you that I would NOT track an s14 over an s13. I have also driven both, and much prefer the s13. While chassis stiffness is marginally different b/w them, 200lbs of weight is VERY noticable. Most of the s13's, or 240sx for that matter, that I have driven that understeer are simply TOO LOW. People go beyond the limits of the suspension, and the the car reacts by pushing through every corner.

RobsNismo - Look around.. Do-luck, NAMS, Cusco, Kazama, D-speed, bla, bla, bla, etc.. all make chassis stiffening parts for the s13.

aznpoopy

11-04-2003, 08:59 AM

Most of the s13's, or 240sx for that matter, that I have driven that understeer are simply TOO LOW. People go beyond the limits of the suspension, and the the car reacts by pushing through every corner.

i can attest to that. my car came with lowered springs on stock struts. very gay. in the post-apex corner if i'm near my limit the car will start to understeer pretty badly. it only oversteers if i REALLY jerk the car during in the corner entry. basically i have compromised handling. saving up for kyb/prokit... was actually considering getting someone's used s14 stock suspension for the interim...

Dousan_PG

11-04-2003, 09:02 AM

thats because people only slam their car. they dont think of replacing/adjusting the rest of the suspension.

my car is low ad getting lower, but i have also replaced some important components to compromise that lowness.

cant just slam the car and expect it to handle the same. there's more to suspension then coilovers or just shocks and springs.

aznpoopy

11-04-2003, 09:05 AM

dousan36, is there any site you reccomend to learn more about suspension? please help me overcome rice and mechanical ignorace. :D :bowdown:

Dousan_PG

11-04-2003, 09:08 AM

sites ...er..not really that i know of off hand.

books there are quite a lot. just visit the local bookstore and libraries

just google around, read read and talk with knowledgable suspension folks (not me). i just am still learning little by little.

the240sxer95

11-04-2003, 09:33 AM

examples of other suspension compents that shuld be changed? i have an idea of what (but dont wanna be made an ass of LOL)

old_s13

11-04-2003, 09:34 AM

Dousan> and comparing BUSHINGS and chassis is night and day. your talking the WHOLE CAR verses a couple bushings? hahahaha..get real. if you blind fold me and put me in either car, i cou ltell you which is s14 and which is s13 without a problem.

haha yeah, the S13 will try to slice your head off with its automagique seatbelts.. while the s14 you can sit comfortably in since it doesnt have those NASTY curved seats like the S13!!! I'm tellin ya, if there's ever an improvement with the S14.. it was the seats and seatbelts. Everything else I could easily do without.

I agree with Dousan though, bushings will only give you a tighter SUSPENSION feel.. chassis on the other hand, doesnt take much more than a few steep driveways to realize. Go close your hatch while on a driveway at an angle, tell me how it feels to see your hatch not close! haha s13 for life baby.. nothing a roll cage cant fix. Although my chassis issues are not 100% gone, they are a LOT better now with all the suspension stiffening components and braces.

stop reading books and start trying things first hand, mr.-stomp-on-the-gas-to-stop-understeer.

hey man! hehe not all of us PREFER oversteer.. my car will understeer when taken to the limit, its not a bad characteristic.. just a driver's preference. Over steer is nice and all, but there are many times when I am driving grip that I'de rather not have the back end kick out on me. Hmm but then again, I have bald RE730's in the front with close-to-new FK451's in the rear.. yeah, funky.

Dousan_PG

11-04-2003, 09:39 AM

oh btw. mike when you come to track you can drive my car. that night you drove it, my slave cylinder was dying (im sure you noticed) it pumped its last...pump? the next day. it was a long day after work..hahaha

alignment and misc tuning today and test in vegas. so..my car is quite different.

yeah it is stiff and oversteers easily. i could change the setup for a grip/neutral type, but i dont do that as much as drift. change tire size compensates if need more grip. soon will be wider in back for grip heh..dont want to oversteer in those places......

sykikchimp

11-04-2003, 03:46 PM

Originally posted by dousan36
thats because people only slam their car. they dont think of replacing/adjusting the rest of the suspension.

my car is low ad getting lower, but i have also replaced some important components to compromise that lowness.

cant just slam the car and expect it to handle the same. there's more to suspension then coilovers or just shocks and springs.

this is very true, and with proper adjustable links, you can compensate to a degree. BUT, there is still a limit. Unless you can actually move the mounting point for the toe links higer on the subframe, you will still be limited by sharp toe changes.

Fyi for you other guys.. you need adjustable upper traction links, and lower adjustable toe links, as well as adjustable upper camber arms. It's the REAR suspension's multi-link setup that your fighting when lowering the car. This stuff is NOT cheap, and usually comes with high maintenance pillowballs that will not only increase Noise, vibration, and harshness, they will also wear over time, and develop slop, and have to be replaced. Unless you are pushing your car to the limit (I mean, you, as a driver, actually have the capability to push your car that far), you will NOT see an increase in performance adding these to your car. As a novice, or even intermediate driver, there are a BILLION different ways to spend money on the car that will actually help you.

Mike - LOL.. SO TRUE!.. I hate when I jack my car using the frame rails behind the firewall, and then try to open the door, only to find the damn the stuck b/c of chassis flex!

thx247

11-04-2003, 06:10 PM

aimed at the internet drifters that drift and hit a firewall dousan.

Anyway I don't really care about the gas on understeer thing. I made a mistake based on some experinces I have, went out and read about some things, drove on the track some more and now I know why I was wrong.

Kills me that I bought some KVR's based on what you wrote about them though. Its all good though, I should have done more research but was pressed for time.

RobsNismO

11-04-2003, 06:17 PM

Originally posted by sykikchimp
RobsNismo - Look around.. Do-luck, NAMS, Cusco, Kazama, D-speed, bla, bla, bla, etc.. all make chassis stiffening parts for the s13.

i know about those companies, i was asking what specific parts, names of the parts, like strut bars, lower tie bars or whatever. i was asking if theres anything else that i might not know about, things that are rarely done that no one really has, or cause its too expensive that no one even bothers doing.

Dousan_PG

11-05-2003, 08:44 AM

Originally posted by thx247
aimed at the internet drifters that drift and hit a firewall dousan.

Anyway I don't really care about the gas on understeer thing. I made a mistake based on some experinces I have, went out and read about some things, drove on the track some more and now I know why I was wrong.

Kills me that I bought some KVR's based on what you wrote about them though. Its all good though, I should have done more research but was pressed for time.

kvrs from my personal track expirience had absolutely no problems. same goes for abotu 3 of my friends annd i bought them on past reviews from other folks

just like any thing you buy, it might not be the same expirience as someone else. my time w/ kvrs on the track, grip, in the middle of july at willow springs, on a hot summer's day, i had absolutely no problems whatsoever. used them for a good 4-5 track events after that too along w/ the 6 months daily driving. i removed them (still in semi decen shape, could have went another event) when i changed to z brakes.

its not my fault you had problems with them. go cry to KVR, not me. i could care less. boo-f'in-hoo.

dood, even newbies, non drifters could tell a s14 from a s13, its still obviously you never drove either one. its ok to admit it. you wont look so foolish then.

thx247

11-06-2003, 09:47 PM

Originally posted by dousan36
dood, even newbies, non drifters could tell a s14 from a s13, its still obviously you never drove either one. its ok to admit it. you wont look so foolish then.

While I may not have a complete grasp of vehicle dynamics, I can at least comprehend sentences.

Where exactly did I say there was no difference between a S13 and a S14? Maybe its right there where I said or implied I drove an S14!

how many of you guys would even know what a stiffer chassis feels like? If I swapped bushings in my s13 do you think you'd be able to feel it and tell me that there were different bushings in the car?

Nope not there!

Just like if I added a strut tower brace to the front and rear- do you think you'd be able to say without knowing its there that I had one? Hmm nope...

Unless floor boards are falling off the car ala FnF style I don't think many people here would be able to comment very accurately on the chassis stiffness. Ah here is where I mentioned the difference between a S13 and S14! Er....hm :confused:

So lets assume I am correct for a second and what are we left with? A more expensive heavier car. Imo, get the cheap S13 if you have to have a 240 to drift or whatever. Its not like the car is losing value anymore anyway. Drive it, see how you like it. Appreciate the savings you have and then worry about something so vauge as chassis stiffness.

:rolleyes: I can rewrite it if you like. But I think it was clear enough as it was.

Originally posted by dousan36

its not my fault you had problems with them. go cry to KVR, not me. i could care less. boo-f'in-hoo.

I'm not crying to you dousan, I'm just upset with myself that for a minute I listened to your opinion. Why don't you go brag in another thread about how much money you save with your hookups and save me the trouble of replying again.