HID/Xenon Information

[texsilvia]

I posted this as sort of an FYI for anyone considering converting to HID lights.

I don't know about the quality of one HID kit over another, but as far as all HID kits are concerned, light is light, as far as what you can see anyway.

Essentially when you move from a regular Halogen Bulb to a HID setup you are increasing the color temperature of your headlights from around 2000K-3000K to around 5000K-6000K even as high as 8500K, but I caution against going that "hot" as the light tends to just look bizarre.

For reference some typical color temperatures are:

1500K Candlelight
2680K 40 W incandescent lamp
3000K 200 W incandescent lamp
3200K Sunrise/sunset
3400K Tungsten lamp
3400K 1 hour from dusk/dawn
4500-5000K Xenon lamp/light arc
5500K Sunny daylight around noon
5500-5600K Electronic photo flash
6500-7500K Overcast sky
9000-12000K Blue sky

The K refers to temperature in Kelvin, an absolute temperature scale based on the Celsius gradation. Color Temperature refers to the temperature you would need to heat a "perfectly black body" to in order to produce light of the same color.

As far as the reflector, or any reflector for that matter is concerned, if the bulb dimensions are the same and the HID light source is placed in the same position as the Halogen filament, the reflection pattern will be nearly identical. Any chromatic variation will be unoticeable.

If you can find a kit that places the HID element is the appropriate place for the conversion, then go for it. But don't expect optimum reflector performance if you stick an OEM HID bulb into a reflector designed for an H1 or H2 bulb. You'll just piss everyone off and your HID lights will perform poorly.

Phillips makes a kit that I know comes with H7 bulbs, and is probably available with H1's or H2's.

The important thing is to get a kit that replaces your halogen bulb with the exact same size HID bulb. That way everything lines up and you have the correct bulb geometry for your reflector. It's not a flashlight, Free-Form Reflectors on todays cars are as precise as anything in the engine. Correct positioning is important.

Basically, you'll get what you pay for. If you want it done right, get a reputable kit, and be prepared to hand over $600 or so your friendly neighborhood HID merchant.

-Texsilvia

[SilviaDriver]

old_s13 will school everybody in lighting

[old_s13]

Originally posted by SilviaDriver
old_s13 will school everybody in lighting

haha this reply was great.. I got a good laugh. ;)

On a more serious note, this guy DID make some fair sized mistakes with his post. Is there anyone here, any fellow-Zilvia member, who REALLY wants me to correct him? I mean, HOW many times have we been through this.

Texsilvia> Its nice that you brought this info to the table, I think thats cool. Atleast you go through the effort to read, post, share.. etc.. some people just start mouthing off here.

Anyway, if anyone cares I'll correct..

-m

[JasonNagra]

I care even though my Hella H4 converson is more than enoug light. Hey Mike, when my bulbs go out, what should I replace them with? What do you preffer for good lighting for canyon runs and such. Not that I do that stuff...

[texsilvia]

I'd be happy to have you point out any mistakes I might have made, I only posted what I have experienced.

-Texsilvia

[old_s13]

As far as the reflector, or any reflector for that matter is concerned, if the bulb dimensions are the same and the HID light source is placed in the same position as the Halogen filament, the reflection pattern will be nearly identical. Any chromatic variation will be unoticeable.

Phillips makes a kit that I know comes with H7 bulbs, and is probably available with H1's or H2's.

There's your biggest mistake, right there. Do more reading and searching, and you shall see that HID capsules are mostly available in the D2 configuration (either D2s or D2r).

HID capsules create light differently than a filament bulb, so regardless of the position of the bulb/capsule, the lighting pattern will always vary. In a projector assembly, this isnt *AS* noticeable.. but in a reflector assembly, its god awful. Dont think that projectors are OKAY with HID, unless they are designed for HID.


The important thing is to get a kit that replaces your halogen bulb with the exact same size HID bulb. That way everything lines up and you have the correct bulb geometry for your reflector.

haha this is funny.. yes, the optics on newer reflector headlamps has improved -- but this ONLY makes sense when being used with the bulb its designed to use.


It's not a flashlight, Free-Form Reflectors on todays cars are as precise as anything in the engine. Correct positioning is important.

haha.. huh?!?


Basically, you'll get what you pay for. If you want it done right, get a reputable kit, and be prepared to hand over $600 or so your friendly neighborhood HID merchant.

And they'll say "sorry, we dont sell HID kits" because they have recently bumped up the enforcement on fining companies that sell HID kits.

Read more here, I just finished slamming info down into the 3g Eclipse community: http://www.eclipseforums.org/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=1902677#post1902677

[texsilvia]

To correct my mistakes.


There's your biggest mistake, right there. Do more reading and searching, and you shall see that HID capsules are mostly available in the D2 configuration (either D2s or D2r).

The Phillips kit is advertised as having H1, H4, H7, 9005, and 9006 "style" bulbs.

Generally though..."D" simply denotes the HID replacement for a Halogen bulb.

DH1 = H1
DH2 = H2
DH4 = H4
DH7 = H7
D9006 = 9006/HB4

There is alot more to it than just bulb designation, there is also base type and a classification for dual use bulbs that function as both high and low beams. Remember, most HID kits are designed as low beams only.

HID capsules create light differently than a filament bulb, so regardless of the position of the bulb/capsule, the lighting pattern will always vary. In a projector assembly, this isnt *AS* noticeable.. but in a reflector assembly, its god awful. Dont think that projectors are OKAY with HID, unless they are designed for HID.

If you do a side by side comparison between a standard 9006 and a D9006, the D9006 is about 3/4 inch or so longer than the standard 9006 and tends to place the lighting element slightly ahead of ideal. This appears to be the case with all DH bulbs so I could easily see it scattering your light pattern. Since projector lamps rely on the lens rather than the reflector, this would explain why projectors might handle the change in geometry more easily.

I can't vouch for what exactly would happen if you put an HID system in a car with a projector setup. Most projector setups are relatively inefficient compared to FFR's which is why relatively few cars have them. You may not see much of an improvement over the blue-white halogen bulbs.

Warning!!! technobabble ahead...

The method that the light is produced in a halogen bulb is radically different from a HID bulb. HID/Xenarc lamps use two carbon electrodes and jump an arc between them, ionizing a gas or vaporizing a metal and causing it to glow. Those funky ornage street lamps are are the same type of light but use sodium instead of xenon.

Halogen lights are just an extension of filament technology and are so named due to the low pressure bromine and iodine gas in the bulb. These gasses establish a regenerative process with the tungsten element in the bulb and allow it to operate a few hundred degrees hotter than a standard bulb.


haha.. huh?!?

In some cases, manufacturers dispense with parabolic reflectors in favor of ones designed by super computers that precisely tailor light in horizontal and vertical planes. Called free form reflectors, these lighting systems use an optically clear protective cover free of dispersion elements. The result is a highly efficient lamp that is capable of projecting all light along a desired path. As there is no stray light emitted from a free-form reflector, illuminated areas exceed that provided by conventional parabolic designs by about 30%.


And they'll say "sorry, we dont sell HID kits" because they have recently bumped up the enforcement on fining companies that sell HID kits.

Lots of things are considered illegal by most DOT's. But if you can get the kit, and it's fairly easy, the DOT has to prove that it was not original equipment for you to get fined. Most, though not all, state troopers won't even bother trying.

The only way the merchant can get fined, atleast in Texas, is if he advertises a product as street legal when it is clearly not.

I'm not saying it's ok to run down and buy a HID kit for your car, I'm also not saying it's completely horrible. I just posted this to condense some information in to one area. Personally I have seen some nice conversions done, and I have seen some that barely give off any light due to improper design.

I guess what I was hoping to accomplish with this thread is to have people think before they run out and stick $600 or more into their headlights that might be better spent elsewhere in the car.

[texsilvia]

One thing to keep in mind that I forgot to mention.

I live in Texas, where you can register a wagon if it has headlights and a bumber.

What gets by here would cause the legislature in California to have a collective haert attack.

You have no idea how many cars I see that have no cats, no mufflers even, no wipers, tint so dark you can't see through the car sideways on a sunny day, or even BLUE taillights which is obviously screwed up.

California has a lockdown on car parts and car part regulations.

And regarding HID kits and being DOT approved. The only thing that is technicaly DOT approved are road surfaces and tires. And really on the tires, it's more of a self regulating setup. That is, the manufacturer is responsible for ensuring compliance.

The way it was explained to me is; it's easier for the DoT to compile a list of illegal items than it is to certify every item around.


-Texsilvia

[old_s13]

I will go ahead and respond to the mistakes that are easy to point out. As for the rest, I hope people here have common sense and take things with a grain of salt and research before they make their decisions when buying parts for their car and performing modifications. I am not saying this to put you down.. but this is why there are companies that are in business -- and why there are just people talking on the Internet.

The Phillips kit is advertised as having H1, H4, H7, 9005, and 9006 "style" bulbs.

In the US, Philips does not SELL any form of "HID retrofit kit." They simply produce the ballasts and the D2S/D2R bulbs, and plenty of other lighting products.. but no KITS -- this is a FACT.


Generally though..."D" simply denotes the HID replacement for a Halogen bulb.

The "D" can denote whatever you want it to denote, the fact of the matter is that legally, there is NO SUCH THING as a bulb that fits BOTH halogen and true-xenon. You will NOT find such a creature. This is because lighting manufacturers understand optics, and how both technologies create light.. differently!

Keep reading, it seems you like lighting.. there is still a lot out there for you to learn. Please refrain from posting mis-information, there is still a lot of errors in your post.. thats just MY opinion, take it for what its worth.

good luck,
- Mike

[DuffMan]

Hey Mike, could you explain or link to why hid and filiment bulbs reflect differently. I know pretty much nothing about lighting and its always cool to learn something new.

[old_s13]

here:
http://lighting.mbz.org/

and in greater detail, here:
http://lighting.mbz.org/tech/bulbs/Hid/conversions/conversions.html

Daniel Stern -- Well known and respected by folks in the lighting industry. His knowledge is pretty much on-point, he should consider writing a book.

Me on the other hand, I am too impatient and angry to eloquently state things like DS. I would probably write something like:

"The difference between halogen and HID is like the difference between Ken and Ryu in Street Fighter 2. Sure, back in the SF1 days.. it was rather difficult to immediately grasp the difference between Ken and Ryu, other than one being American and the other being Japanese, respectively. Most of you are probably too young to even remember SF1, with its pressure sensative punch and kick balloon buttons! Years later, SF2 came out.. where their characteristics became more clear. Ken was obviously faster, Ryu was obviously stronger.

Now, lets look at their fireballs in greater detail. When you hear the word "hadoken" it should be understood that the character (either ken OR ryu), would arch back and then trust their fists forward simultaneously, thus creating a large fireball that would travel towards the opposing character. The fireball can vary in speed, all it takes is the tender touch of a button, either jab, strong, or fierce; each button increasing the speed of the fireball.

Point being, these are the ONLY two characters in Street Fighter 2 that could emit that fireball. "But Mike, what about Sagat or Chun Li! What about Guile!" Listen stupid, I dont care about those other characters. Use your head, Sagat's fireballs are either too high or too low. Blanka can even WALK under the Sagat's tall fireball. Chun Li's fireballs are good for a certain range, they always disappear towards the end of the screen. Guile? He takes 2 seconds to charge, its just different. ONLY Ken or Ryu say "hadoken" -- they are the ones who possess those particular powers.

So, even though there ARE multiple players who can throw fireballs, the way they are created is completely unique to each player. Dont expect to play SF2 and hear Chun Li say "Hadoken" because it will never happen. EVEN if it was some Chinese bootleg championship turbo + NOS edition, it would NEVER look or sound right -- it would probably just go about 2 feet and then just fall to the ground. Chun Li, or ANY other character for that matter, simply CANNOT wield the poers that Ken/Ryu possess.

And thats a wrap folks. I hope I have cleared up WHY HID and HALOGEN are different.

* Dont call me racist for using Chinese in my example of bootleg, because they are the kings of boot-legging. All those VCD's of Hero and Shaolin Soccer being sold in downtown LA as DVD's -- CHINESE bootleg it! (Well, sometimes Taiwanese.. but I decided to use China).

** Dont bother mentioning ANYTHING after SF2 Turbo Edition, because I didnt bother playing that garbage. True OG's know that SF2 Turbo is where it is at. ANYTHING past that makes you a fucking nerd. Even today's generation of OG Gangsters play a classic game of SF2 turbo before putting the beat down on their nemesis -- REAL MEN know this. Examples?

1) Ali G and SMB played SF2 before the Langley Villiage Battle of 1998.
2) TuPac Shakure and Notorious BIG played SF2 Championship Edition (turbo wasnt out then), before TuPac was murdered in Vegas. Biggie was later muredered in Los Angeles. Coincidence? NO. Formal battle? Yes.

-m

[texsilvia]

I'm going to end it here and just say that you missed my point, entirely.

In order to prevent this from turning in to a flame board, I'm not going to extend this any further.

Anyone who manages to read this far, disregard most of it and take the color chart for what it is, a reference.

The single point you made that frustrated me was regarding my knowledge or presumeably knowledge you think I lack. I have written papers and given more presentations about the physics of light than I care to mention. Don't presume that I don't know what I am talking about when it comes to light.

[old_s13]

I'm going to end it here and just say that you missed my point, entirely.

I've already read through your posts, and I agree and disagree on various of the points you've made. What I am not going to do, is sit here and correct each and every point I dont agree with.


In order to prevent this from turning in to a flame board, I'm not going to extend this any further. Anyone who manages to read this far, disregard most of it and take the color chart for what it is, a reference. The single point you made that frustrated me was regarding my knowledge or presumeably knowledge you think I lack. I have written papers and given more presentations about the physics of light than I care to mention. Don't presume that I don't know what I am talking about when it comes to light.

I simply shared some links and had fun with this thread, joking around. I dont think I said anything offensive, and I am completely entitled to having an opinion about what you wrote. I am sure you have opinions about me, its ALL good.

I dont understand, you SAY you are knowledgeable about lighting.. the stuff written on Daniel Stern's site doesnt make any sense to you? Review and compare, you are telling me you dont see any errors with what he says, and what you've written? I dont care how many papers and presentations you've written, what matters is how RIGHT the information you are posting is; and I am NOT talking about the kelvin chart.

- Mike

[texsilvia]

No, I read through it and I apologize if I was overly sensitive to correction.

It's been a rough and *expensive* week and I guess I took part of the frustration out on the message board, I apologize.

No hard feelings.:cool:

-Texsilvia

[old_s13]

damn.. what is going on with this forum, im acting friendly.. this guy's acting friendly, people getting along n shiet...

lets cause some chaos, all this peace and serenity is starting to bother me.

:)

[stevebsvs]

here:
...

** Dont bother mentioning ANYTHING after SF2 Turbo Edition, because I didnt bother playing that garbage. True OG's know that SF2 Turbo is where it is at. ANYTHING past that makes you a fucking nerd. Even today's generation of OG Gangsters play a classic game of SF2 turbo before putting the beat down on their nemesis -- REAL MEN know this. Examples?

1) Ali G and SMB played SF2 before the Langley Villiage Battle of 1998.
2) TuPac Shakure and Notorious BIG played SF2 Championship Edition (turbo wasnt out then), before TuPac was murdered in Vegas. Biggie was later muredered in Los Angeles. Coincidence? NO. Formal battle? Yes.

-m
:bowdown:

I can't believe there still exists a true SFII warrior in the new breed of bitch fighters!!!! Mad respect!!

[s13driver]

:bowdown:

I can't believe there still exists a true SFII warrior in the new breed of bitch fighters!!!! Mad respect!!

you can pm him or something instead of reviving an old thread that has nothing to do with what you post.

[wootwoot]

hahaha, i dont care if that was old or not. it ruled reading.also informative and some people should read the revived thread

[old_s13]

thats right, and you should also know that my chun li will own you all.

[stevebsvs]

Or maybe I can comment in the thread that exists and not give a shit about reviving an old thread. And, maybe you can stop being an asshole and let shit be.... :)

[AJ]

old_s13 is my hero.. that analogy with sf1 and 2.. etc.. was absolutly the highlight of my day... i was laughing my ass off.. thank you!

[z0iid]

textsilvia -

thanks for the copy and paste info.

where did you purchase your doctorate?