450whp on a GT2871R? RWD DET.. It is so....

[Mazworx_Sales]

A customer of ours in the UK has an S14. Engine is stock sleeves, Tomei 87mm pistons, Tomei rods, Tomei 260 cams. With our Mazworx topmount Tial V-band turbo kit fitted with a GT2871R, this car made 446whp and almost 400ftlbs of torque. The 400ft/lbs of torque comes in at peak 4000rpm. In our book, that's pretty damn good for a GT2871R. All done @ 1.1bar

http://www.mazworx.com/pics/colwell_1.jpg

http://www.mazworx.com/pics/colwell_2.jpg

http://www.mazworx.com/pics/colwell_3.jpg

http://www.mazworx.com/pics/colwell_4.jpg

http://www.mazworx.com/pics/colwell_5.jpg

[codyace]

I hate to be the skeptical guy here, but you do realize those graphs are flywheel HP, and were all done in shootout mode right? I'm also skeptical of the marginal estimated whp to flywheel HP difference...30 hp? The torque readings are kinda goofy too. Not to say I don't trust all dyno operators, and I know shootout mode helps eliminate configuration 'correction' but it also provides estimated numbers.


Either way, nice numbers but to say it's 450 whp is a bit deceiving, especially at the 1.1 bar...those turbos simply can't flow enough air at that level to create that sort of whp...esepcially with that smaller trim compressor. I know the .86 guys on standalone are seeing 435-450 whp at 22-25 psi, which makes much more sense. Would love to see if he could get some trap speeds from the car to really help pinpoint the power. Regardless, I bet that car runs really well.

[cotbu]

No way in hell, am I shooting for 450. I agree with codyace. That's a mfn game changer.

Sent from my highly tuned vibrant!

[codyace]

No way in hell, am I shooting for 450. I agree with codyace. That's a mfn game changer.

Sent from my highly tuned vibrant!

Especially at 16 psi. As before, I believe it was 4x4le making in the 450 neighborhood with his .86 and 24 (i may be off) PSI, which makes sense in regard to the air flow possible from the compressor.

Nothing against a dyno dynamics, but with all of their different modes, and estimates for what they make in the shootout modes...I take them all with a grain of salt. I mean if that thing makes 400 whp, it'll trap 120 without an issue.

[4x4le]

Im on my phone out in the sun right now so i cant see the graph perfectly, but i dont see the shootout mode logo.

Anyways im not a skeptic. You guys are missing the big picture, its running a v band flanged turbo, the turbine inlet is v band flanged....... So it dont have that tiny t2 inlet anymore which was always the demise of the 2871r. When the compressor starts getting happy your backing up too much exhaust.

Now with the v band inlet and the external wastegate you can really start shitting out the exhaust backpressure and let the compressor do its job.

Also, im pretty sure I reported it on here but it was possible the clabration was off on the dyno when I had my record(ish) numbers. That engine is no longer around either to find out for sure. It was 437 on a dd.

This graph is inspiring to me because my new engine should be able to produce similar hp numbers but tq should come in much sooner.

[codyace]

Im on my phone out in the sun right now so i cant see the graph perfectly, but i dont see the shootout mode logo.

Anyways im not a skeptic. You guys are missing the big picture, its running a v band flanged turbo, the turbine inlet is v band flanged....... So it dont have that tiny t2 inlet anymore which was always the demise of the 2871r. When the compressor starts getting happy your backing up too much exhaust.


Now with the v band inlet and the external wastegate you can really start shitting out the exhaust backpressure and let the compressor do its job.

Also, im pretty sure I reported it on here but it was possible the clabration was off on the dyno when I had my record(ish) numbers. That engine is no longer around either to find out for sure. It was 437 on a dd. [

This graph is inspiring to me because my new engine should be able to produce similar hp numbers but tq should come in much sooner.


Again, I don't take the total exducer making much difference, especially if the trim is the same. Exhaust wheels from my personal experience shift powerbands more than elongate/change them.

I imported the image into PS and played with the levels. Shoot_4 is easy to see.


Even with the Vband exit, you're not going to have the compressor flow more air...ultimatly the compressor determines HP by air flow...the compressor can make it happen sooner, but the final limit is that cold side wheel.

Trap speed sells it to me, you can't beach phyics. I simply do not believe 415 whp at 16 psi (the corrected estimate) at all. The compressor doens't support it.

[4x4le]

When i get home im going to print the graphs and plot different points and do math, something does look off to me....... However i do believe the exhaust housing has much more to do with it than your giving credit, otherwise you would see t2/t4 hybrids. It does not matter how much air your flowing in if you cant flow any out. Excessive back pressure will decrease the amount of timing you can run and makes air flow backwords through your head when you have more backpressure than boost pressure during valve overlap.

Really what dont look right to me is how early the hp is made and how level it stays but that could be due to the low boost. Making power like that at low boost is crazy too. But oddest of all is revving an engine like that to only 7200rpms. Im trying to play out in my head what gearing your car in on the dyno would do if your at 4k and you tell the dyno 3k..... Im thinking it would put your tq curve later on and inflate your midrange hp, and cause you to loose your shootout license...

Mazworks may be cocky at times but they kinda earned it i guess. I dont think Mark would have posted this if he knew something was up.

Ill be home soon. Ill disect the graphs in a few.

sent from my rooted thunderbolt

[codyace]

When i get home im going to print the graphs and plot different points and do math, something does look off to me....... However i do believe the exhaust housing has much more to do with it than your giving credit, otherwise you would see t2/t4 hybrids. It does not matter how much air your flowing in if you cant flow any out. Excessive back pressure will decrease the amount of timing you can run and makes air flow backwords through your head when you have more backpressure than boost pressure during valve overlap.

Really what dont look right to me is how early the hp is made and how level it stays but that could be due to the low boost. Making power like that at low boost is crazy too. But oddest of all is revving an engine like that to only 7200rpms. Im trying to play out in my head what gearing your car in on the dyno would do if your at 4k and you tell the dyno 3k..... Im thinking it would put your tq curve later on and inflate your midrange hp, and cause you to loose your shootout license...

Mazworks may be cocky at times but they kinda earned it i guess. I dont think Mark would have posted this if he knew something was up.

Ill be home soon. Ill disect the graphs in a few.

sent from my rooted thunderbolt


I'll maintain, that regardless of backpressure, the turbine is only going to spin SO fast in relation to the compressor wheel can make power. Certainly less backpressure can help with response, but the turbine is only spinning XXX amount regardless....it's not like the compressor is going to magically spin more because of less backpressure. The housing A/R remains the same....64 and 86...while the outlet itself is larger, the wheel in it has the same exducer...I can't see the huge difference if the 3" opening from the 56 mm wheel is in theturbine housing vs 2" down the o2 housing path.

Now there is no doubt my math and shit may be off

but

16 psi, through the same 2871r wheel is never going to enable that sort of HP to be made. To me. I'd love to be wrong, and will say that I easily could be...but to say that car makes over 400 whp at 1.1 bar is silly to me, especially giving the mods considered. That manifold is not worth 10 hp per psi. Again that smaller trim housing has much less potential HP too. Something just seems off. I want trap speeds. Can't deny weight per speed over distance.

[4x4le]

Ok my verdict is Im not sure what to think as of now but I am compelled to believe something is up. Mazworks has a reputation to uphold so Im hoping they can shed some light on some things. I dont think any deception was their doing, but rather who supplied them with the graphs.

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn40/4x4le/Dyno/dispute.jpg

One thing I noticed is the tq curve is different on both sheets. The equation works on some parts and dont work on some parts but is more consistent on the one Im not reposting. tqXrpm/5250=hp

Look at the chart I posted:
#1 why is hp and tq crossing here?
#2 why is there no dip present in the tq since there is one in the hp
#3 the tq's level and rpm would indicate that he should be making 464hp

between #3 and #4 I didnt number but it should be making 480hp where its making 360tq
#4 Now Im thinking that everything in red including the red hp pull was done together and the boost level is for that pull. So I feel that more boost was used to make the other graph.

Now I want to know where the tq line on this graph came from, because I believe there is no way in hell that car is capable of the whp and tq it made on the tq line at 7k.

Its also wierd that this graph does not cross at 5250

[Om1kron]

comes into thread to say cool, ducking to avoid the swinging dicks in here. LOL

[4x4le]

I would also like to add that APT needs to either be informed about this or have some kind of explanation. Dyno dynamics will strip them of their shootout authorization after a few offenses like this.

[cotbu]

The Mother F*king Catalina Wine Mixer!
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn40/4x4le/Dyno/dispute.jpg

[TFD]

UK power# talk and dyno's are all "calculated" back to flywheel guestimations.

Dont ask me why, but over here in Europe everyone talks of BHP instead of WHP while they dont even realise you cant measure BHP on a roller.... just simple torque converted to power on the wheels.

... everlasting discussion you cant seem to win over here...

Wheelpower on that sheet/car would be around 380ish whp when comparing to all the other sheets on sxoc.com.
Still enough on 1.1 bar :eek:

[codyace]

comes into thread to say cool, ducking to avoid the swinging dicks in here. LOL

Stick around and learn something you bum ;)...Who we really need is Steve K here to explain to us why the DD is god's third child and how it all works...(HIiiiiiii steve!)

Not really dick swinging, just curious as to why the thread was made with such outrageous claims like it was 'new' or has happened before, when in reality it's been done now for a few years.

[4x4le]

Wait, so they spend 70g's on the best dyno in the wrold and program it to do a bunch of guessing like a dyno jet? If i would have known dynos in the uk are a joke i wouldnt have bothered
If you read about shootout mode though, that shouldnt matter and those should be real numbers. The dyno operator clearly added techniques......

sent from my rooted thunderbolt

[Walperstyle]

380 is a little more believable, pending what computer is running it, and what fuel type and delivery.

[jr_ss]

Keep in mind guys they have higher octane "petrol" at the pump than we do. I'm not saying that should change the power levels much, but it would certainly help. I'm interested to see why there is a dip, and why the graph crosses twice...

[8k psshh]

damn nice ride!

[codyace]

Keep in mind guys they have higher octane "petrol" at the pump than we do. I'm not saying that should change the power levels much, but it would certainly help. I'm interested to see why there is a dip, and why the graph crosses twice...

I just think the thread title is misleading to say the least. Way to many variables, way to many differences. I have no probably giving credit where it's due, but these claims aren't anything 'new'...and to make it worse, equal/better results have been had on the stock junk.

FWIW for the 17 year olds who think I'm 'hatin': I love mazworx, and support everything they have done for the 240sx commuity.

[tabasco122]

Keep in mind guys they have higher octane "petrol" at the pump than we do. I'm not saying that should change the power levels much, but it would certainly help. I'm interested to see why there is a dip, and why the graph crosses twice...

barely, they use a different method to calculate octane. the us uses (ron+mon)/2, most of the other countries in the world use RON, resulting in a higher number for the same reading. 100RON is about 95 octane by US standards, so its not THAT much better, only slightly. just multiply the RON number times .95 to get the us equivalent.

[fliprayzin240sx]

I have a Top-mount Mazworx manifold for sale...according to this thread, you can make 350whp with your stock T25!!!

[TFD]

US 93 petrol is about the best we can get over here (RON98). Generally everone runs US 91 / RON95 over here. After that people go E85.

You can get some RON100 in Germany but its hard to get for most people.

[codyace]

I have a Top-mount Mazworx manifold for sale...according to this thread, you can make 350whp with your stock T25!!!

Damn you sarcastic bastard :kiss:

What I'm saying is you can make 350 hp with the stock exhaust manifold and that same turbo without any issue with the same supporting mods.