car choice dilemma

[memphiss13]

ok guys here's the deal. right now i own a 93 civic hatchback w/b16 and some suspension stuff, big brakes etc. and i also have a 91 240sx w/ sr20det BPU. i can't decide which one of these things i want to keep. lately the 240 is losing the battle. doesn't hold boost over 10psi and just not as fun in the corners due to its stock suspension. if i keep the civic i want to get about 215whp all motor. that would be pretty fun in such a light car. if i keep the 240 i have a long way to go though. it needs suspension and paint work before anything else.

so give me some good reasons why i should keep going with the 240...or not.

pics of the two
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid63/pf879af630acc5a945f2e1caba0e29dd3/fc15b657.jpg
it does have a front bumper on it now.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid23/p0632daf954b9c7400db0394ddff22aa0/fd9f47fc.jpg

[Spec_v5150]

Hmmmmmmmm

I am personally tired of 240's and if I was in that predicament, I would keep the Hatch. I am forced to keep my 240 because no one wanted to buy my 240. Just my .02 cents

[Vatche]

keep the 240....the potential of a rear wheel drive car compared to a front wheel drive....and you already have the sr20det...get some suspension with the money u sell the civic for....suspension adds alot to the 240....and 240's are not as many as the civic....you should not be running more then 7.5 psi on your sr unless u have the right mods done for it .... and i compltely worked a fixed up b16 in a crx....in all ways possible...keep the 240 work on it.... :) my opinion....i hate front wheel drive

[DoriftoSlut]

Keep the civic.

If you have to contemplate keeping a FWD econbox vs. a RWD sports derived car, you dont appreciate the 240 enough, so go back to Hondas FF grocerygetters. You should have done suspension before SR. Suspension geometry and handling dynamics is the S chassis strong point. Oh well....

[ca18guy]

I'd keep the civic. Its allready in great shape (looks nice by the way) Has a motor with alot of potential still left in it and has the suspension allready done. Seems like an allready kick ass daily driver. The 240SX sounds like it needs work and doesn't seem like you have nearly as much invested in it (ie: you can sell it and recover most of the costs) If you want to keep working on it I think the 240sx is a more rewarding drive, but the civic is allready there for the taking.

[brianglawson]

i would stay with the 240sx, sell the civic and buy a nice set of tein coilovers, nice greddy fmic, bov, boost controller,,,,etc get it painted, you know the works with the money from the civic, by the way that is a nice civic though, nice and clean with tasteful wheels and such

[memphiss13]

Originally posted by OC240
keep the 240....the potential of a rear wheel drive car compared to a front wheel drive....and you already have the sr20det...get some suspension with the money u sell the civic for....suspension adds alot to the 240....and 240's are not as many as the civic....you should not be running more then 7.5 psi on your sr unless u have the right mods done for it .... and i compltely worked a fixed up b16 in a crx....in all ways possible...keep the 240 work on it.... :) my opinion....i hate front wheel drive

over 7.5psi is fine when i am BPU.(FMIC,Fuel Pump,BOV,etc.) i already have all that stuff. thanks for the comments its helping my decision a little bit. i know that with suspension i would appreciate the 240 more. i think i am just impatient.


dorifto180sx: i bought the car with no engine in it so i went with the SR first. if my civic wasn't taking so long to sell i would've already had suspension on it. things just didn't go as planned and i ran out of money. and what's up with the honda hate?

oh yeah and just so everybody knows, i DID NOT put those flames on the car.

[hookedup240]

"What's up with the honda hate"

Hmm..let me guess, you are asking this question on a 240sx forum what do you think. First of all everyone has a civic. I'm tired of seeing these damn cars.

2nd of all like Dorifto180sx said, if you are contemplating fwd vs. rwd, then you don't know what you have, you might as well sell the 240.

I wish i was in the situation that you are in, i wish I had a 240 with an sr20 and another car to sell, which you could probably sell to some dumb kid for a lot of money, and use the money to mod the **** out of the 240sx, which in the end will handle better, and be faster than a civic.

I'm biased of course but give me a break, you dont deserve a 240 if you have to think about this.

[Bbandit]

depends on how you use both cars...
drag? autocross? road race?
if you're more into autocross and road race.. the 240 is a keeper
if you drag and if you think that 215fwhp all motor will satisfy you for a long time... keep the hatch
altho i can say that your sr'ed 240 has unlimited potential for drag or road race (depends on how you modify it)

if I were you and dont have any financial problem, i will keep the 2
im sure that your hatch is fun to drive (i've always wanted a b18c hatch as a daily driver)

its not that i hate a honda (i used to drive an ls/vtec integra long time ago).. but i autoX a LOT and realized that i wasnt going anywhere with a fwd.. getting a 240 boosted my time up to 3 seconds bone stock (stock suspension and stock motor)..

but if you dont "use" the 240,
you might as well sell it and keep the hatch

[memphiss13]

yeah i autocross more than anything else that is my main focus and just fun on the street. i think this post is swaying me back towards the 240. all the reasons stated were the reasons why i started the 240 project in the first place. i'm sure i would be happy with it if i had even just some aftermarket springs and shocks. it will just be a long road to get it where i want it, but thats what this is all about i guess.

everybody that gave their blunt and honest opinion. thanks alot. sometimes i need to hear things like that to make a good decision.

[Bbandit]

glad to help you decide :)
and im sure with some suspension work + vlsd, your 240 will also be fun to drive
good luck with the project

[memphiss13]

already have vlsd too. perks of buying a hicas model. hicas is no more though.

[DoriftoSlut]

Originally posted by brianglawson
buy a nice set of tein coilovers
Which ones are those? I have never seen them before. New model? You got any pics?








:D

[Bill Roberts]

You do not need our help in choice. you seem to have made it already...but..let me give you some props for the Nissan.

A huge percentage of 240SX owners that have sold....want to get another one.

Pontiac is busting its balls to be the "american sports car" and take a look at the 2005 GTO. So simalar to what a 240 is all about..in a 2005 model. In drifting and popularity of the car plus aftermarket support, the 240 has a huge following. It also is easy to make it world class in performance.

The Honda is a fine car. No doubt they make nice cars and their are great mods. The 240 is the last good FR Japanese auto that can be made into a beast and custom taylored at an affordable price.

240SX's also look great. All vintages.

The 10 year car in the US...is One upped by the S-15 and I am very fond of the G35 platform. It is keeping the tradition going.

[jaaaaaaaaap]

keep the eg! they corner alot faster than a s13... well in my opinion anyway
"215whp all motor" wow crazy....

[RBS14]

Originally posted by jaaaaaaaaap
keep the eg! they corner alot faster than a s13... well in my opinion anyway
"215whp all motor" wow crazy....

how could that be your opinion? wouldn't a time on a track determine if you are correct or not? its like saying "the civic is faster at the strip than the C5, but that's just my opinion." opinion has nothing to do with it. Oh yeah, if you had the same mods on a S13 as A EG, the S13 would be faster in the corners, just so ya know. EG's are great cornering cars when done right, a friend of mine has Tein FLEX's, S/T sways, and Falken Azenis on his EG and he can work tons of people in the corners.

I'm with Dorifto too, keep the EG, you obviously have no idea what the capabilities of a S13 are.

[720_datsun]

i think the eg would be better for autox an racing through roads. they dont have to have that much power to be fast, stip em and there hella light. and you dont have to worry about wheel spin and over/understeer that much. just hammer the gas into and exiting the turn. = hot.

[DoriftoSlut]

Originally posted by 720_datsun
i think the eg would be better for autox an racing through roads. they dont have to have that much power to be fast, stip em and there hella light. and you dont have to worry about wheel spin and over/understeer that much. just hammer the gas into and exiting the turn. = hot.
WTF?? FF cars have to worry about understeer SOOO much more. Why? the front wheels have to turn AND power the car. In driving (racing) you have a friction (grip) circle (chart). Lets say the X axis on the left is Turning left, and the right is turning right, and the Y axis up is braking and down is accelerating. You cannot have full braking capabilities AND full turning capabilities. Why? Plot the point you get from Full Left and Full Up (braking). that point lies outside your grip "circle" (which is "drawn in" between full up, left, down, and right points... Each contact patch has a LIMIT to which the friction with the road will NEVER surpass. The limit is higher with super soft grippy tires, and lower with shitty ones, obviously.

Ok now when you are cornering, your tires have to work while braking and turning to not only stop the momentum but also turn. Now, when you go to accelerate, the same thing happens, you need to hold your line, AND try and use the REST of your front tires grip circle to accelerate. When the grip circle is surpassed in this case, you will understeer (either too much gas, and or too much steering angle). Your rear tires in a FF car are just along for the ride, only concerning themselves with being able to handle the sideloads while cornering.

Meanwhile in a FR car, your front tires can use more of their grip circle for keeping friction while turning,a nd your rear tires, grip for accelerating. They each have their own tasks, and are equally balanced as far as how much your car relies on each task. Understeer in your FR car will be too much grip in rear while on the gas, pushing the front tires off of their line. Correcting this problem is MUCH easier than getting an understeering FF car that understeers no matter what you do short of putting lunch trays on the rear tires so there is NO grip.

Of course the friction circles "shift" slightly with weigh transfer and different psi, widths, stiffness, etc...

Anyway, there is way too much info for most of you to bother reading, let alone interpreting.

[RBS14]

that was a great discription of the friction circle!!!

I want more info..... what's the other stuff you said most people wouldn't bother reading.... i wanna read it!

I'm hungry.............for knowledge!!!! haha

[DarkRaptor42]

stay with the 240. I cashed out my 240 for my sti but i miss my 240 alot. the sti is great, but I miss that nissaney feeling

[wingsnthangs]

If you're smart and practical, you'll ditch the cruddy 240 for the clean working civic. If you're an irrational enthusiast who dreams of project car drifting, you'll keep the 240.

[memphiss13]

yeah at this point the civic is the safe route, but at one time it looked like thishttp://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid17/p0aa0ef93d45ac99564bb4d8902bcf7ec/fdf88045.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid17/peec460b72ffafb345799e17282027c95/fdf88016.jpg

so you see i don't really look at things as they sit. i like projects. which is why i am back to my original plan of taking the 240 to the next level.

dorifto180sx that was a pretty good write up you just did. kind of biased though don't you think?

[Rennen]

How about this:

Sell the 240, the market is fairly high for a Mad TyTe drift car with an SR20 right now, take that money and save it. Keep saving $ and lay low and enjoy your well modded civic. Keep an eye out for a great deal on a 240, if you find one buy it and start over from scratch. This time do it right, work on suspension shit first and worry about the SR later.

Plus your car has fairy sparkly flames on it:ghey:

:D

-Matt

[720_datsun]

how much for your civic?

[memphiss13]

Originally posted by Rennen
How about this:

Sell the 240, the market is fairly high for a Mad TyTe drift car with an SR20 right now, take that money and save it. Keep saving $ and lay low and enjoy your well modded civic. Keep an eye out for a great deal on a 240, if you find one buy it and start over from scratch. This time do it right, work on suspension shit first and worry about the SR later.

Plus your car has fairy sparkly flames on it:ghey:

:D

-Matt

i really wish i had started with a better body. i hate those dang flames. i plan to do suspension as soon as i get my debts paid, i never had the intention for the suspension to stay stock for the 3 months that it has. i hate not being able to take corners.

[whateverjames]

I vote, Civic. Dunno why. It seems you're already on a roll with the Civic, may as well stick with it.

[s13rookie]

id say stick with the civic, you already have a lot of time and effort invested into it.

240's are nice, i have owned 2, but they are NOT perfect

the best thing honda/acura has going for it is the aftermarket, there are enough parts out there to make your car do what you what WHEN you want, while stock for stock , the civic may be inferior compared to a 240, look at the aftermarket

[Vatche]

anybody who chose the civic over the 240, other than the people who said u dont appreciate it ,,, why the hell are u on this board, go away :)Muahahaha

anywayz like i said before civics are fun and all but they are not supercars like the 240, Well thats my Opinion :)

[nokeone]

240...

projects are fun..

:D

[s13rookie]

to the dude with 12 posts, 240's are NOT supercars. not even close, they are however a well balanced car, good engine, and well rounded with a nice styling. however you sound like you just took a ride in a buddies 240, nutted yourself, and are now about the 240's in a almost blasphemous way, as its probably the first fr you have ever been in

as for the comment about love 240's or leave, thats bs, i like 240s, thats why im on the forum and enjoy to talk and discuss them. just because i prefer to park one in my driveway and not on a pedestal, doesnt mean i dont appreciate them.

[Vatche]

excuse me s13rookie, but i own an sr coupe...and i was making a freaking joke~! u stiff haha anywayz i love my car...and i have driving many different cars...maybe not as many as u or maybe more...point being im a fairly decent driver and i still think 240's like u said are ausome cars....supercar was a joke....but this guy seems to be confused with the whole fr vs ff

[nrcooled]

Maybe if you didn't disable the HICAS you would be cornering faster:hammer:

v/r
-HICAS enthusiest

[memphiss13]

Originally posted by OC240
excuse me s13rookie, but i own an sr coupe...and i was making a freaking joke~! u stiff haha anywayz i love my car...and i have driving many different cars...maybe not as many as u or maybe more...point being im a fairly decent driver and i still think 240's like u said are ausome cars....supercar was a joke....but this guy seems to be confused with the whole fr vs ff

exactly why do i seem confused by the whole FR vs. FF thing? its not like this is the first RWD car i have driven. the two that i drove the most before this one was a 99 M3 and then a 2003 350Z track model. two awesome cars in my opinion, a whole different level of car though. both of these were dad's cars ofcourse but i drove them on a regular basis. at this point the 240 doesn't compare to those two cars. but i know that it can. basically i realize i have two good cars in my opinion which makes the choice hard, but i have chosen the 240 over my civic. if you read back a few posts.

nrcooled: if i had the HICAS pump with my SR i would've tried out HICAS before removing it, but i didn't and i wanted to drive my car sooner so i ordered the HICAS lock which got here before my engine even did.

[DoriftoSlut]

Originally posted by rookie2nr
dorifto180sx that was a pretty good write up you just did. kind of biased though don't you think?
Unless Physics is biased, i don't think it was....
Heh. For real... if you watch Keiichi talk about the cars he is driving when doing Touge or track driving (grip) he mentions how much more balanced FR is. In Touge Showdown he is driving a DC2 ITR (my favorite FF car) and Taniguchi is driving an S14. They BOTH have the same HP: a little under 250.

Uphill Keiichi gets dominated (as he predicted, cause the FR and turbo have an atvantage for that) But he was talking smack about how he was going to destroy Taniguchi on the down hill. Why?

***interlude*** FF cars going down hill on slow speed tight courses may have an advantage. It is the same reson, actually, why they are at a disadvantage other times. When going down hill, you have a lot more grip on the front tires (gravity pulling your cars weight onto the front suspension). This increases your front tires' grip circle. It also lightens your rear, making it more willing to rotate (aka eliminating some inherent understeer from FF). When going downhill in FF, you tires still have grip to turn while also being able to get on the gas (and not understeer as bad). In FR, when getting on the gas, you have less grip in rear, so without careful balance, you may slide too easily. Drifting. Make sense why Keiichi started perfecting "drifting" while racing his underpowerd but balanced AE86??? ***jump back to normal discussion***

But in the video, he gets worked on the downhill too! This is strange he says, he was not expecting it. What happened? He explains how even in downhill, FR cars have the *OVERALL* advantage. The better balance o FR allows you to drive the car more predictably and not worry about understeer (He kept shouting "Unda unda unda unda" in the DC2).

When coming out of the corner in FR, the weight distribution backwards to the rear wheels giving them increased grip obviously takes away from the front wheeels grip circle. BUT, if you do it too much (ie understeer)it is easier to correct... lift the throttle. As in off throttle oversteer. Were the weight distribution evens up with your lifting of the throttle and your front tires regain the appropriate amount of grip. That amount of grip you proportion to them is dependant aon how much you lift off the throttle (off throttlew ovesteer will come when lifting completely off throttle suddenly).

Anyway, in FF car when it understters while on throttle, many time you have to BRAKE to get your front tires the appropriate amount of grip. Braking in the middle of your acceleration phase KILLS your momentum, and your exit speed sucks.


As for setting up your FF car to handle good: 16 in front, 15 in rear, 225 front and 195 rear tires, with a slightly grippier tire in front. Also, TOTALLY strip the car.

Anyway, i think its proof that with equal horsepower, a more linear powerband from NA, and a 500+ lbs weight advantage, the FF car (with a better driver too) still did not cut it. If that isnt enough evidence, then nothing will sway you. Personally, i think it is all up to the driver. If you can handle your car very nicely, i think a FR car is great, especially a tame one like a 240 or AE86. If you are not that great of a driver (i mean seriously, be honest. If the grip circle and stuff doesnt make sense to you and you dont know braking points, acceleration points, apexes, lines, etc...) then I bet you would be faster driving a FF car (and safer). understeer can ruin your run and lap times, but it is easier to slam on your brakes to save your ass than it is to know the appropriate amount of throttle control and countersteer angle to hold a "drift" (as in a racing slip angle, OR a all out showwy tire smoking drift).

Anyway, depending on driver and goals, i think either car would be great project cars and both would be fun. I like EFs, EGs, EKs and DC2s. The DC5s are too plush, and EP3s are too pussy also.

[memphiss13]

yeah i have that video its great. and its funny when i watched it i kind of thought some of the same things you are saying. you would expect the lighter car to do better, but FF was a disadvantage on that particular course.

as i said before i am keeping my 240. if for nothing else just to get away from what i am already used to. i had alot of fun at the last autocross i went to in the 240 and i know it only gets better as suspension is worked on more. appreciate your help guys. now i want to go to some driving schools to learn more about car control. i figure the more i understand that the easier it will be for me to play with a little drifting. it just looks so fun.