My SOHC is destined for DOOM... Need opinions on swap option...

[BeatJunky]

[this information can also be found in conjuction with this thread (http://www.zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?s=&postid=309022#post309022)]

Get this one... BIG SURPRISE FOR ME!!!:doh: :doh: :doh:


So my engine has a noise I beleived was an exhaust leak via exhaust manifold. Today however, as I kept driving thru the day it kept getting louder and louder and LOUDER so I decided to fiddle with the engine a little. I let it idle and popped the hood. Stopp there and listened trying to pin point the source. The noise is loudest from within the valve cover gasket. I then checked the engine oil dipstick... and to my surprise it is DRY LIKE A BONE! I couldnt beleive this!:eek: I double check.... same chit!:cry: Pop open the oil cap, all looks empty in there. Popped the little bit of oil I could find (1.5 bottles of 10w30) into it and the drove it around the block, noise is reduced 80%. Called my mech buddy up, sz he strongly beleives I have a bad lifter so I have to figure out which cylinder is bad and fix all that junk plus re shave the heads etc etc etc etc. So my engine problems havent been simple, I just plain purchased a straight up lemon.

:(

So I've decided to get rid of this engine/tranny get up.

My question to you guys is:

- Should I swap in another SOHC or go straight for an SR???

Biggest concern is reliability. Is an old SOCH KA loaded with miles more reliable than an SR? When I go to the shop for the SR swap (Im thinking of going with jdmspecperf.com cuz theyre somewhat local)will the SR come complete with all "basic maintenance" items already in perfect working conditions? E.G. All ignition parts working properly, All hoses checked and good, etc etc etc etc...?

My biggest fear is getting into another problem.

So for reliability... an SR swap or SOHC KA swap?

I wont be ready for SR swap until feb/march of '04 but if really needed I can pull some strings to do it sooner. If not a new "used" SOHC KA can be attained for a minimal price but with the risk of having it not be fully dependable.


:::edit:::
For more info on my situation... this (http://www.zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34905) is the link to the thread where I explained how I came about this car and my initial impretions of it. I've only owned it for 2 or 3 weeks, this may help understand my situation.

[Warwick5s]

let me get this straight...



your engine was making noise, it was low on oil, you added oil, and it went away, right?


i think you were just low on oil, man. my car burns a quart about ever 500 miles, and if i'm not careful and let it get low it makes a LOT of nasty noise. remember that everything from your timing chain tensioner to your lifters requires oil pressure to operate.

don't be so quick to ditch your engine if you don't have to.

[Bill Roberts]

SOHC is a pretty durable engine. The only way I would "guess" that an SR would be less durable is due to the stresses that would be placed on it "more often" since it is being used as a performace engine. Any engine will deteriorate faster when stressed harder...even the ones that are suppositly "made for it".

I hear of Lamborghini and other exotic owners having to rebuild there engines at 12K miles or so. Reason is, they abuse them and sling them apart. I see exotics on ebay all the time...22K miles, recently rebuilt engine.

Any engine will last only how you treat it. You are taking miles off your engine everytime you floor it..more stress and more wear. It is the price you pay if you want to play. A well cared for SR can last just as long as a well cared for KA24E...turbos generally have a "normal life" of around 90K miles but a performance life of around half that (the snail itself)...if well cared for. Turbos need more frequent oil changes due to oil temperatures being higher. IF you want your SR to last, get a turbo timer for it to cool down some, change the oil as soon as it starts getting dark to keep it fresh and don't rag on it all the time. It is not a Race engine, it is an engine that comes in a factory car. If you make it into a race engine, you will likely race it..and racing wears out engines. A dragster (top fuel) gets normally one run out of a motor...then new bottom end time. 2 runs for the top end. They KILL THEM in around 4 seconds of stress. Some don't even make that.

Excuse typos, keyboard is on the fritz

[BeatJunky]

Well heres the thing. It was just sooooo quick to eat all this oil. Two weeks ago it had this oil change and all of a sudden, boom, gone and Im left with a crazy knocking noise. I added a bottle and a half of 10w30 that I found laying and the noise went away almost completely and the dipstick read a little bit of oil.

My bud sd that this may as well be a grave and expensive problem to fix unless I swap it for the same engine or better.

Im also concerned about my chassis and suspension. I mean in a way these are things that can be fixed over time after an SR swap if I go SR but still something to be concerned about. MY chassis has rust on rear of "rear" wheel wells and on "rear" of rocker panels. Also has some rust on front strut mounts and under car on suspension parts.

I really some advice cuz Im just lost at the moment. I paid $1,200 for a car that may quit driving soon and $600 on trying to make it work already.

What would you do?

[BeatJunky]

BTW Bill...

YOU ARE THE MAN!:boink:

No doubt... Ever since you came aboard Zilvia I've respected and taken your posts seriously. You always have strong intelligent points and advice.

I do understand what you are saying in the above post you made but my question goes beyond that and straight into what I should expect from the swap shop. Will I get a bunked up SR or good, quality, perfectly working SR until I have to normal maintenance of course.?

[Bill Roberts]

I would keep the oil topped off, look for leaks (oil sending units fall apart, I lost some oil this way one time, dangeriously low. You have 2 quarts left when it is not touching the stick so it was not out of oil or it would have overheated and siezed..leaving you a ruined engine. Just keep the oil full on the stick, drive it normal..save your cash...right now..consider your car daily transportation until you can do something about the engine problems. I suspect it is leaking going down the road. Rust is no biggie unless you are going to drift at high speed (70/80 track)and /or run more than 300 horses.


IOf it is not smoking and the oil is running out...then you have a leak...hopefully a simple one at that. For an engine to last through its final days (a really bad one) I put in 2 quarts of oil and 3 cans of STP oil treatment. An engine done this way is a junker and I just wait it out to blow. I got an extra 7K miles ouit of a ford motor doing that and it was pouring out the oil...STP kept it so thick that it lasted and barely leaked...but that is last chance senerio.

Just keep it full, look for leaks (BTW, you will not see an amount of oil looking in the cam /valve cover) just a little bit..


Drive it...save your cash. When it dies, make a decision on the route you want to take. The engine is probably fine...you got a leak somewhere.

[Bill Roberts]

SR can be cherry or trash. I have seen SR's for 2100 in a clip with less than 5000 real miles on them...looking brand new...I have seen some pretty horrible examples. you do a swap...better really look it over..like is the oil pretty clean...and you can just tell if a motor is beat to total hell or it is a baby.

I would not buy an engine set or clip unless I heard it run, looked it over good. I would not want one with more than 40KM on it (shade of 20K miles...but then again...you pays your money and takes what you gets...seems to be the normal. I am much more picky. I can almost gurantee my SOHC will make out to 250K miles and still have good compression...because of how I drive it..I give it rests bewtween flogs..seems to be the best way to wear an engine. I am doing something right, my oil stays clear for a long time..but I change it after every serious 2/3hr flogg session...just because..it is burnt up oil..clear or not, it is contaminated. It stinks!!!

Personally, I will do an RB swap unless I can get an engine set SR or even the CA for a really good deal. I am patient. When I do get a swap..I will still drive my KA for a while..quite pleased with the performance. I may be taking a step down with an SR considering how I drive mine and where I need the power...and how my engine is doing right now...but one missshift, it could be all over. Happened to Old_S13, I think he missed a gear and ruined his KA...so I am always looking for "da deal"

Try to get personally more involved in the whole process of working on the car...and doing your own swap when the time comes if you can get transportation. Two valiant souls here , Joey and The Sparo..they are finishing up their swaps..and pretty fast too. I guess both these guys have never actually done one before..but dove in and almost done.

Again, I will drive my KA until something serious happens (like a hole in the block)

[Warwick5s]

the crappy part about that plastic underbody splitter thing under the engine compartment is that it catches leaking oil, so even if you are leaking something fierce, you may not see it on the driveway like you normally would. (my old VW's were notorious for marking their territory.)

and I, like Bill, have had oil pressure/temperature sending units crap out and start leaking like a mofo. i would maybe wait for your engine to get cold, and then clean it as best you can. then go for a drive, get her up to temp, and check with a flashlight to see if anything leaking?

[BeatJunky]

Speaking of smoke, there is a fair amount of dark (fuel smelling) smoke blowing out of my muffler when I hit high rpms or after a rough start. Also sometimes I get sparks blowing out of my muffler at high rpms.

Does this hint head gasket?

[Bill Roberts]

That black smoke happens with the best of engines not tuned precisely. I saw a CA on a dyno do over 500HP (CA18DET) and was pouring out black smoke at 9 grand...reason?

Unburned fuel, and old Soot.

Not enough air getting in the engine is why...or low speed driving soot buildup in the pipes. I got to blow mine out to 7K from time to time or my catalytic converter gets loaded with soot. Most embarrassing to romp down and cloud the car that you just owned :)

Sparks? I get FLAMES! how they get past the cat is anyones guess, I guess it is blown out good by now.

Check that oil sending unit..it could be your entire problem. Only leaks while going down the road..you will not smell it...exhaust is on the other side.

I tell you..I had no idea my was leaking like a sieve until I heard that horrible noise you heard. Lucky me, I was 1 block from my day job..and yep...no oil on the stick.

[BeatJunky]

Oh cars...:coolugh:

Im just gonna take the car to my buddyes shop on saturday for a full proffesional diagnosis. I dont wanna guess at things and go around in circles.

[Bill Roberts]

Keep the oil to the full mark on the stick. Check it every time before you start it. Print this info..especially the oil sending unit. Change the PCV valve. Look for leaks. Have the compression checked.

It is not as bad as you think in my opinion. When you own a 240SX, you see it all. That engine is probably not doomed. Get a case of oil to ride with you..or if you have the money, rent a nice camry for a month and drop it off at a swap shop with 6K and tell them...I will see you in 30 days..

Nice to have money..but nicer to figure it using the zilvia and learning and all.

I certainly wish you well..Please let us know what you find..we all learn from it..

Head gasket is good if it is not steaming fog out the tailpipe.


PS, Thanks for the complement...I love a great vibe Man!

[TheSparo]

i would stick w/ u'r motor as long as possible, but if you want i can sell you my old sohc, i just recently swapped in the sr, send me a pm if your interested in the sohc, but yea just keep the oil topped off, it will be good, oh yea, and better yet put in some of the stuff called "no smoke" it is like freaking honey, its so thick

[Bill Roberts]

Sparo...damn I wish I was closer to you on that KAE set.. I sure would not mind it sitting in the garage on a stand wile I tear it down and make a beast of it to have around here "just in case"...but you know...whoever needs it first and it is easy and they got the dough....go for yourself broddah..

I am proud of you getting head first into your project..you and Joey.

BTW, PM me, I got some cool things I would like to share..that is not appropriate for the board (and it is not R rated or anything like that)

[logo20]

my car burns a quart about ever 500 miles,
that's alot of oil, what kinda oil do you use? if you use 20w-50 oil will help alot but gas mileage decreases.

[BeatJunky]

Ok... a trip to Auto Zone and $17 dollars later I walk out with a new Oil Sensor, 4 bottles of Mobil Drive Clean 20w50, STP Oil Filter & A Bottle of Engine Flush.

I'll change the sensor, flush the engine and fill'er up with some oil. I'll post back with results later although I wont really know if the problem will be solved for a few days. That way we'll see if the oil is still going MIA on me.

If this does not solve it sooner or later this stuff is gonna get into my piston and shyte like that so I wont really expect this engine to last me 6 more months (which is when I'll be able to dish out the cash for a nice SR).

Meanwhile I come and post back... Let's discuss my other question.

If comes down to where my SOHC dies. What is the better, more reliable option?

a) Swapping in an old SOHC.

or

b) Swapping in an SR20DET (or other JDM engine depending on amount I have available).

Im mostly concerned on mileage and amount of maintenance required to have the swapped in engine run reliably. For exmaple:

- When I get the SR swap in, will it be installed with all parts working 100% well.

- If SOHC I'll most likely do the job with my buddies. Should I expect to have the same problems that I am having now?

...Be back in a little while guys.

Thanks for all the help!!!!:bowdown:

-Omar

[BeatJunky]

ARGH!!!:mad:

Couldnt get the stupid oil sensor out.:cry:

Didnt have the right tools. Saturday this car will go to my buddies shop for a full diagnostic. If its not good enough to keep or too costly to fix then I will need an SOHC to swap in...:)

:::edit:::

I did however fill er up with the 20w50 mobil drive clean and changed the filter. Still making that nasty sound... Unfortunately...

[DuffMan]

If it is a lifter problem, I have 2 KA24E heads you can have for free, and I live in the west chicago burbs. I also have a shortblock of questionable quality you could have if you wanted.

[BeatJunky]

How would I be able to identify if it's a lifter problem?

If it is, what are ways to repair?

PS: Thanks for the offer Duff... I'll let you know if I need those and where to deliver them to (while you drop em off you can sit back and enjoy some brews with me and the guys). :yum:

[BeatJunky]

:::EDIT:::
(Bible style, semi-rant, long post ahead)
------------------------------------------


I've been hanging around different online sources to better educate myself and learn how to pin point engine/mechanical problems with my car all thru tonight. I've also been searchin Zilvia, 240sx.org and other places for first-hand stories and related threads. Needless to say I learned a few things.

I got in my car this morning. About 65f outdoor temp, cranked the car, let it sit for 10 minutes till it got up to correct temp. I sat in her for 5 more minutes just listening. The valve body/camshaft area is still doing the click. somewhat low from the inside of the car, but very noticeable when accelerating while driving. I noticed a minor exhaust leak sound. Also, one that has perplexed me for a while... Seems like my clutch is in bad conditions or the flywheel is. As I sat and listened, I heard a revolving "scratchy" or rather "grinding" sound that my best guess has to do the clutch. I beleive it to be the clutch since when I pressed the pedal to the bottom, the sound was louder and faster. Also, when slow shifting or downshifting, it is extremely loud and impossible to avoid. When I drive the car hard and fast, after about 10 minutes of that, everytime I shift the engine will rev but the clutch wont help my car move much at all until a few seconds of that then the car will proceed moving to high rpms. Is that the clutch slipping? Which brings me to my first question:

- How do I determine what exactly is causing that sound? Would it be throw-out bearing, out-of-whack clutch disc, pressure plate, flywheel? What spins and what can make the spinning parts loose henceforth making contact with something it's not supposed to?

I was told by a my friend (when it was at his shop getting the clutch slave cyl changed) that I need to do my tie rods and have a rack n pinion boot changed. I kept that in mind as I was driving today because I noticed that when I brake with medium demand (not lite braking or emergency "step on the brakes" style) that theres another deeper, revolving yet warping growl somewhere along the bottom suspension. This brings me to question number two as I have noticed this on many other used cars before and seems common:

- Does this sound like a brake systems or suspension problem?

Finally, my biggest research topic for the moment. Engine Rebuild. As I was reading thru "howstuffworks" I came across a comment they made about when a car burns oil visible thru the exhaust as black smoke and the car running low on oil about 1 quart every 1,000 miles or so. They say this happens when the piston rings are out of shape. The oil will get thru and mix in with fuel then finds it way in your exhaust system therefore you see it out the rear. Not only that but as I changed my oil today I noticed the oil pan had tons of old built up oil sticking to all of it's outer surface especially around its seal. If what I've read is correct, if the compression or air fuel ratios are not exact, you will also have starting problems with may explain my problems with the car not starting sometimes. Sometimes I can sit in the car completely stopped and just tap the gas pedal, my rpms suddenly drop below idle and 2 seconds later rise again. Or when Im driving and am about to shift, the "lower than idle rev then back to rising rpms" things happen again still making the car want to stop and stall. Another things is If I start my car, go drive w/o warming it up, drive somewhere for 5min, get out shut her down, get back in 2 seconds later and try to start her, the ignition seems to work, but the engine wont catch. We thought it was the starter but after reading all of these things I now think it could be engine internal related. So now I beleive that the oil/start-up/bad idle mystery could be the rings or lifters. Etc, Etc, Etc...
Seems to me then like this engine needs tons of work so why not rebuild back to spec. Here's questions number 3 thru 7:

- If I were to rebuild this engine, what should I expect to spend in parts and say labor on compression/leak down tests, porting and cleaning, etc?

- What exactly do I need to change/repair on a rebuild project? (seals, gaskets, headwork etc.)

- If compression/leak down tests are good and rebuild is done well, how long should I expect this SOHC to last and how well should it perform?

- In your opinion, should I rebuild her or ride her how she is and wait till spring to do SR or RB swap?

- Will a rebuilt SOHC handle KA-T Kit well?


I'm sorry for making you read so much and for coming on like a real noob all the time but at this moment all of you that are reading are my only realable source for advice. I'm really concerned about this car and want to end up doing the SR swap. Unfortunately I cannot afford to get that swap done the correct way until tax season. So for now, I need solutions to help me carry this car thru the winter reliably. With your cooperation, we can keep another SOHC intimidating the streets for a few more months.

I appreciate EVERYONE on Zilvia.net for being experienced, intelligent and extremely helpful individuals playing for the same team here. I hope to one day be able to give back as much as I receive.

Thanks in advance!

-Omar

[BeatJunky]

Noticed the smoke is black on start-up, later is white and smells of fuel. Head Gasket?

[Bill Roberts]

I guess what you will need to do is learn a little car "zen".

After a while of working on cars (like 10 to 20 years) you get to the point where each sound has a character that you can immediately recognize and then you look there.

Your above (long) series of statements and questions involves too much guesswork from behind the computer screen which I feel could lead you down the wrong path.

Example, Lets take just one question:

How do I determine what exactly is causing that sound? Would it be throw-out bearing, out-of-whack clutch disc, pressure plate, flywheel? What spins and what can make the spinning parts loose henceforth making contact with something it's not supposed to?


and the actual question:


Should I swap in another SOHC or go straight for an SR???


Well this in mind, it sounds like it would be much more meaningful to address your first question.

FWIW, Here goes:

I would learn the car and it's ways. I would learn to pinpoint what symptoms relate to what problems and separate them into catigories. If this is your daily driver, what will leave you on the side of the road waiting on a wrecker truck? Start with the problems that affect the cars ability to go from point A to point B first and then look at the little things. IF A CAR HAS PROBLEMS...DO NOT USE IT IN PERFORMACE MODE!

A simple anwer to all of this is take time when you have it and work on what you have before attempting to do any kind of swap. Unless your engine is about to go out permantly, best bet is to learn on what you have and this would make (when the time comes) a more knowledgeable person so that problems with a swap can be rectifyed.

It would take a book to answer that post above...so best bet, concern yourself with driveability problems first.

Get someone that is familiar with the 240SX to drive it (someone who actually has taken one apart) and then catagorize each problem and importance. An enthusist is much better than a shop...so seek out someone that can help you. I am in South Florida, if you were close, I would be happy to drive your car and in about 10 mins..I would have your list ready.

Sorry if this is such a use of bandwidth but this is my BEST recommendation to you at this point. Each problem has an importance level of repair, a certain sound and a certain remedy. An experienced driver and owner of a 240 is whaty you need most now..behind the wheel of your car.

Then the list of importance.

Driveablity (freedom from breaking down)
Make it all work (complete car)
Performance mods (when the car is solid)

Then you can start modding things once the car is solid to begin with. A swap would simply cause more headaches. If you spend 2 grand on a moterset/clip, better have another 2 grand to finish it...VS getting to know your car now and spending far less getting it right to begin with.
...because the learning curve is not there. The Sparo and Joey...they had some good basic tools in hand knowledge to begin with before their swaps..Not a cakewalk for someone who actually has not learned to pinpoint sounds with problems to a fine art.
Make sense?

[BeatJunky]

I beleive that I am in the state of mind you are suggesting I put myself in. Im not rushing into a swap. Im rather trying to prepare my car for it in the future. I am using your three basic steps.

1) Make car reliable
2) Make car solid
3) Mod away...

My swap, when I'm ready, will be done proffesionally rather than at my shop. I will definitely have the budget for it as well but I have to wait another 6 months. Im just a little frustrated that the car has more problems than I thought it did at time of purchase and I cant exactly figure them out.

Im trying to self educate myself (books, web, people) on mechanics and am still a noob so I know I wont be able to aleviate my own problems succesfully.

Originally posted by Bill Roberts
Get someone that is familiar with the 240SX to drive it

Hopefully when I go to the meet on the 20th someone will volunteer to do this. I would to have a fellow enthusiast give me their $.02

My initial goal at car purchase was to have a reliable stock 240 to get me thru the winter because soon come spring I will have the $$$ for a proffesionally installed swap. But now that this 240 looks like it may have trouble during our cold season, Im beginning to worry. Money is tight at the moment.

That is my goal for this car...

Thanks BTW...

I'll keep you folks informed of my progress.

-Omar

[hmooblis]

is the noise like this? http://www.zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=74487

[SHIFT_control]

wow 2 years to the day you bring this one back up..... good job man :rl:

[420sx]

is the noise like this? http://www.zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=74487

no cuz nobody gives a fuck what it was like 2 years ago