Engines and Decisions

[driftyour40]

Hey guys, I've been reading the posts here for a while, but been lying dormant, waiting for the perfect time to strike. I figured now would be a good time as any since I had a shining moment today. Here is an editorial that I wrote, I hope that you guys enjoy it as much as I enjoy looking at naked ladies.

Engines and Decisions

Engines are so fundamentally simple that it makes me sick. Why is it that something so simple is so hard when you want more HP? Turbo, supercharge, N/A tune, bolt ons. Which bolt ons to choose, which N/A parts, machining, what machining to do? Port this, polish where? Bore, my god man. Deck how? What the heck, this is far too much to take in all at once. OKAY! Now I have to sort this out, I know I have an engine I even know that it's an N/A. Well I could supercharge it, I could even turbo it, but at this point I think if it was an N/A to begin with then by god it should stay N/A (price and origininality played a big part in that). So what should I do to make my N/A engine faster? Oh crap that FIRST decision took two years; and now I have to make more. What kind of dirty trick is this? At this rate my 240SX is never going to be faster. Okay, talk to people who have done it. Can't find them, don't know where to look. So about a half a year later, I do the best thing I've ever done for this car; took the biggest step I could for free. I talked to the owner of a tuner shop "The Auto Toy Store" and then I talked to the owner of a machine shop "Wild Bills Machining" both of these people helped me in ways that I don't even fully understand yet. So I guess the moral of the story is engines suck and are not simple at all, and talking to people with years of expiereince is the best way to build a well balanced high output engine for the money, that we all seem not to have. Now you have to build a suspension set up that will handle your HP and your driving style or like me, multiple driving styles. God this sucks... Does anyone know a good suspension shop?

Oh yeah, I've been doing this for three years. That's longer than some of you have had your cars. And I've talked to a lot of stupid people, so don't think someone knows what they're talking about just becuase they seem like thdy do. Go learn for yourself then go talk to people and learn more; you'll understand one of these days. I think any 240SX owner knows about the, "Oh yeah I can do that to your car" and then they get it up on a rack and the price goes up about $100 and it's going to take a lot more time to do. But anyhow, try to have fun and, do it right the first time and then instead of fixing the things you did wrong, you can move on to something else (like suspension and brakes). By [email protected]

[DuffMan]

I hate shops. They look at you and see dollar signs.

[DSC]

Interesting way of saying what most people go through with their first car.

Some shops are cool. There are some out there still run by enthusiasts.

Buy tools and books when modding, not someone elses labor.
And for a beginner, start with suspension and brakes, not engine. It'll get you comforable working on your own car and decisions are cheaper...unless your just doing minor n/a bolt-on's.

[96240SEKid]

Yeah thats how we feel when we have all theese possibilities in front of us- what should i do...swap engine, build this one, what do i want out of it? how streetable is it going to be, do i want it only for the strret"? It can be confusing at first, i know driftyour40 knows ALOT about his car, hes just in a spiritual situation, and maybe a little financial problems arise here and there. But i get what hes saying, its basically how my dreams at night work, its not worded perfect but the confusing feeling about your car is the same. good job drift,

james should be locked in a closet......this is just a little editorial about his mixed feelings about his car.

thanks
Bryan

[driftyour40]

yes james should be locked in a closet

[mbmbmb23]

driftyour40-

You'll notice that the more you learn about automotive technology the more money and time you'll save yourself. I used to know nothing about cars.....but in the not-so-distant past I've personally replaced my clutch master cylinder, clutch slave cylinder, entire interior including dash and door panels, headliner, seats, carpet, etc. Heck, today I just tuned my car up (new fuel filter, plugs, wires, oil, cleaned my K&N)....and all I paid for was parts. If I had some shop do it, they would nickel and dime me to hell. My dad had to have some emissions crap replaced on his 96 mustang...he didnt wanna do it himself so he took it in. They replaced 3 things.....and the problem came back. They charged for they diagnostic (hooked up to a ford CPU and read the codes)....$90.....labor PER PART totaling $140...$100 parts....$20 environmental shop charge,
..$misc....$tax...etc.
My point is....if you learn how to fix it yourself, you'll save money and feel proud you did it yourself.

As far as realizing that you need to throw money at your 240sx to make it perform....well....welcome to the world of the 240sx. This car is sporty, but it's not a supercar. Fortunately the 240sx's alter ego in Japan (with the SR) and it's older brother (Z32) have some scavengible parts that are bolt on upgrades (SR engine, Z32 brake upgrade, 5 lug upgrade, etc..) for our USDM 240sx....and those cost money. Also...this car is old, so it will take some money and time to bring your car back to as close to OEM spec as you can (new paint, motor mounts, hoses, etc, etc..).

My advice to you would be to buy a Factory Service Manual and a nice set of tools (metric sockets, etc..). Start with some smaller improvement projects and build up your confidence. Read the forums and learn who is full of crap and who is knowledgable. Read all the installs on here and 240sx.org , meet other 240sx people...hang out...bounce ideas off each other...and help each other work on your cars. Lastly, save your $$ any do one project at a time.


good luck,


-M

[driftyour40]

mbmbmb23


I've had my car for three years, an s14. I've done multipule tune up's. Dude i was raised by tech's. My moms an ASE certified my uncle an ASE Master tech and my dad was a mechanic. with the exception of any tranny work because my last s14 was an auto. as far as the editorial i like to write i thought sombody here would get that the tune shop was cool because the guy was knowledgable and was full of information on parts and what they would do for my car like an electric fan reduces pracidic mass unlike pully's which reduce rotating mass and well i dont have big machines to do my machining and i will fork out money to him. thanx

[email protected]

[ca18guy]

Originally posted by driftyour40


unlike pully's which reduce rotating mass
Actually a aftermarket UD pulley will do both. It will reduce the weight of the rotating mass and reduce parasitic lose because most any aftermarket pulley will be smaller then a stock pulley. Thats all symantecs though, more pwoer is more power.

[driftyour40]

oh, well i didn't know pully's did bolth. i should of, but thanx anyhow. [email protected]

[DRFT]

save your money just do trial and error but be careful!

[cdlong]

Originally posted by ca18guy
Actually a aftermarket UD pulley will do both. It will reduce the weight of the rotating mass and reduce parasitic lose because most any aftermarket pulley will be smaller then a stock pulley. Thats all symantecs though, more pwoer is more power.

he didn't say UD pulley, just pulley. there are both types for sale, an UD pulley will reduce parasitic losses and reduce rotating mass, and a lightweight pulley will just reduce rotating mass. i'm pretty sure the UR pulley is just a light-weight while the ASP is underdrive. sorry, i just felt like getting that in there.

btw, i thought the editorial was well written and interesting.

[logo20]

So what should I do to make my N/A engine faster? Oh crap that FIRST decision took two years; and now I have to make more. What kind of dirty trick is this? At this rate my 240SX is never going to be faster.
engines are not difficult to understand and if you reasearch enough you'll know every thing about them. learn these terms if you're gonna mod your car: mechanical efficiency, volumetric efficiency and thermal efficiency. Mechanical is like talking about drivetrain loss, volumetric has to do with air and fuel. thermal efficiency is control by compression, the higher the compression ratio the more power the engine will make. since you decide to stay n/a, you have to increase the compression ratio. I saw in a magazine an I4 ford engine making 300hp n/a. of course the compression ratio was 14.3:1. I think the highest you can go with pump gas is 11.1:1 but I'm not sure about that.

[driftyour40]

im really only going for 100 hp to 120 hp more if that im not looking for big hp just enough to get sideways at will.

[Burmonster]

Everyone who starts wanting to tune/rebuild cars starts off on equal footing. The knowledge you gain from others and the knowledge you can from working on your car or the cars of others is more important then anysort of book. In this case experience counts. You can read all you want on how to do something (in my case, how to install an SR) and then once you get in to the actual project you can accomplish anything. The moral of the story...learn from others then work on your car...carefully. Unless you have an unlimited amount of money proceed with caution when it comes to self work on your car. Besides that good luck with all you do.

[logo20]

Fat girls are like scooters...they are fun until your friends see you riding one.
that's funny.
driftyour40, didn't you read my post. You just want a 255-275hp ka? you will have to raise the compression to a least 13:1 or even 14:1,(if you can find pistons) It will also need race fuel. then you will have to change A LOT of parts. this will also cost alot of money and work. the result will be "just enough to get sideways at will" or whatever that means.

[Kreator]

rofl. dude, u dont know jack about cars.

I agree with Duffman, shops do suck. Although with one correction. They see $$$ when they see import drivers. Muscle car shops are ok, as long as they see that you know your **** and won't be easy to rip off. But then if you start asking stupid questions they become anal

You shouldn'tve said you need power to get sideways at will. It either shows how stupid you are, or that you haven't been on this board for the time you say you were. Cuz if you were, you'd know that the biggest post whore on the forum drifts a bone stock ka. Start small.

Now since you are such an engine genius, you shouldve known this better. KAs aren't build for na work... they are not race engines. They were not build to rev high. They were put the damn trucks. Yeah, people turbo them. People do na work (mostly on the sohc ones though). But no matter what you do, you can't take away one thing: the ****ty bore and stroke. There is a reason why companies that make 250-300 hp na kas engines charge arm and leg (in other words ~6-8K dollars) for the work. Are you serious about investing as much money (or more) in the car as you bought it for?

Oh and yeah. There is NO WAY you can have 100-120 additional hp NA on pump gas. So your "get sideways at will" will quickly become "get sideways after every paycheck".

Anyways. go read up some more. Oh and lemme break this to you. Engines are simple. If you aren't understanding them, go work on lawnmowers. Or better yet, rc cars :hammer:

PS. OMG, DSC is on zilvia again?!?!?! :eek: :eek: welcome back :cool:

[driftyour40]

okay well seeing that im stupid and i dont know what im talking about the way i figure it with all the available aftermarket bolt on's i can get at least 40 hp now 155 + 40= 195 and i was told by my machinest that a port and pollish with 5 angle valve job would be 33% more hp 195 + 33%= 259 theres my 100 hp gain that i wa looking for. now with the decking of the block will put the comp. to 10.0:1 and with new forged pistons and I-BEAM conecting rods, and in my case im going with over sized valves yeah there a bit on the pricy side but its going to make everything i do work together better shot pean the crank and cryo treat it i will have what i want out of the engien i have and as far as it being a truck engine pepole make trucks fast all the time not to mention that nissan basicaly full redesigned the ka for the 240 its all very simple no 13.0:1 comp just very old and simple ways to get horse power out of an engien huck up the valve train with schim under bucket so in hi revs i dont send a bucket shim out my valve cover just for safty you know because its cool to have reliability. kreator i never indacated that i had been here for any actual amount of time i just said for a while, and i really dont care if someone else drifts their stock ka, hey good for him so do i. i would just like more power i dont like trying to get and keep my car side ways i just want to mash the gas and deal with the power insted of through my car and hope i stay sideways long enough. and this stock ka guy has probably has a lot more seat time then i do. logo 20 it was an editorial it was just my feelings put into words and you know only a fool in my mind would say something like that because theyre not simple you should read what really comes into properly tuning a turbo car take a good long hard look at the mathmatical charts they put together to properly tune turbos and just think of the different parts in your car that have to work to exact specs or you engien goes boom yeah there simple alright. cdlong thank you. burmonster thank you for your input it was very cool.thanks mbmbmb23. with the exeption of the people i just thanked and the people i have not herd from i think you people should try not to be so criticl of people just trying to get there foot in the door of a forum that they have never been on this is my first forum for the past three years i've been barly surviving on **** a$$ wages and rent car payment and insurance i havent been able to get to much done to on the internet insted i was reading and trying to figure out what to do to my car F-You very much and untill you've done it dont say it cant be done or how you think it will go you just swaped sr or turbo your cars im trying to do something just a little new because im sick and tired of the t3t4 hybrid. thanks.
[email protected]

[Bill Roberts]

250 to 280RWHP is do-able on a KA24E with the right cam, port and polish job, bored 40 over, stroked, thicker head gaskets, ported and modded MAFS, Completly modded ECU re mapped, custom intake, custom 4/2/1/2 exhaust.

This said...at its best will not provide the throttle range as an SRDET at 3400 to 6K. Modded KAE is linear and tapering off...SRDET comes on line in the middle and holds it to the top.


The KAE devolops hole shot and does not follow up through the mid balls and high balls.

It will keep up with a stock 330i bimmer but who wants to be that lame. Good street racer to 70 up against V8's every day...but balls to 130??

Best I got was a 14.4 @97MPH.

You can do that easy with a SR20DET with no mods due to rev range.

I have reached the peak of the KAE and it is time to move on to better pastures.

No Need to turbo it.

Cheap swap is better. It can really kick *A S S^ if you do another powerplant.

KAE is good..it can be better with the swap.

RB power is the next level.

[driftyour40]

so far i still see no good reason not to do the ka build up seeing as its not really all that much im asking out of it. im not really into drag so my e.t. will be for sh*ts and giggles i auto cross and i try to drift but finding a safe place to do it is really hard here and i like to do modrate passed canyon carving so i figure the more constant power band you get with n/a will work better for the things i do in my car. thanx.
[email protected]

[Kreator]

rofl... 33% MY ***

if you expect to get close to 300 with the stuff you listed, then i want some of that **** you are smoking

boltons shmoltons.... yeah you'll get your 40hp quite easily.... for a price of a decent turbo kit. but whatever

lol dude. 33% is the kind of bull**** any mechanic would feed you to make you get yourself a ****in head job. especially when they see a car noob trying to git n/a hp out of a not so good n/a engine. :rolleyes: Think about it. 33% of a stock ka engine is like 50 horsepower. If it was true, or anywhere close to true, EVERY ****in modded 240 would have a head job. In truth, you are looking at 10-15hp... maybe 20, but hardly more.

trucks yeah. they make em fast.... except when was the last time you saw a nissan pickup or any other I4 truck that was fast? Personally - never. The FAST trucks you are talking about run v8 and turbo diesels.

now ok, lemme be A BIT helpful

boltons + port an polish ... ~45rwhp
10:1 rebuild ... ~20rwhp

that is 65 rwhp that you gain. which would be about 200 at the wheels, making about the same as sr makes (with bolt ons) and costing about twice as much.... but i never said this, so go waste your money.

seriosly though, you are not the first one. There IS a reason why people don't do this. And if you weren't a lazy *** like you are, you'd already find that out, and wouldn't have me sit here and type this (cuz doh i got nothing better to do :().

when u wonna be different, you gotta look at this like this:

different > money + time + stupidity of doing it

In this case, results << money. Whatever you are doing you are doing for yourself (i hope) so you aren't supposed to give a **** HOW many people have done the same thing. If you are worried of messing up a swap or a turbo kit, find a shop that will do it for ya and give u a guarantee. No matter how expensive that is gonna be, it's still gonna be cheaper.

finally, if you want to be THAT much different, build a car to handle 300 shot of nitrous. Now that is some wicked ****. Even though no less stupid. At least its cheaper.

[driftyour40]

so your telling me that a full ported head intake manifold exaust manifold throttle body withive angle valve job and over sized valves to match the port wont give mt a 33% hp gain. if if im such a lazy a$$ then why dont you send me a few links so i can read over them and see for my self, because unlike you i cant stay online all day long and i have a life it may be a pathetic one but its a life and that mans im not home im doing things so since your not doing a dam thing help insted of critisize dont tell me im wrong you have to prove im wrong then i'll listen and as far as the sr being cheaper look i WILL NOT spend $2500 on a S14 silvia front clip and just swap it im going to do work to it im going to make it better im going to get at least get 300 hp out of it to the wheels. and once again about the the truck look i dont really care if the KA24DE came out of a scooter it makes a 2780 pound car run 15 something in the 1/4 mile. so its got something going for it. so it came from a truck. the truck isnt fast but my car is sort of okay bottem line you havent done it you tell me im lazy for not looking around enough then find them for me because i have to go to work i mean Bill Roberts just said it was do-able with alot of things done but he did the soc which are knowen to have crapy top end i drive my car every day and its got good topend it will get me to 120 just fine stock my automatic my first S14 took my to 145 mph it did it slowly but it did it and it was slightly down hill but it did it anyhow there is someone who hase done it with soc and said the top end was not so good but thats the way it goes with soc lots of bottem end no top end dohc not that bad bottem end better top end the rest is lack of hp. thanx.

[email protected]

[Kreator]

dude, maybe u should stop talking out of your arse and listen.

I don't have to prove you anything. Honestly, i don't really give a rats ass. But i thought i'd help you out. You on the other hand are not listening. I can't force you to do as i say, and i don't really care what you do. Its not my money. You on the other hand came on this forum and asked for opinions (any post on a msg board is like that). So i'm giving them to u. You are free to do whatever you want, just don't come running back to us when u are neck deep in debts and your car is still not giving out any close to the hp you want.

As for me beeing online for so much, i thank my job where i do 10 minutes of work and 50 minutes of jerking off. Goverment jobs own.

Now lemme ask u something. Is it your daily driver? Are you willing to have it down for about a year (or more, considering you don't really know what you will be doing)? Do you consider 15s fast? If you answered yes to any of those questions, sorry your are a moron.

As for your comment about sohcs getting there, it just shows how uneducated you are. SOHCs are way better for n/a tune, proven. DEs don't respond to n/a tuning as good. Thats why u don't have any high powered des running around. But hey, i'm in no way trying to get you out of your dream world. Keep living it. On a last note i will tell you though, that 300rwhp na from kade WILL make your car illegal and WILL cost you close to 8K. Mark my words.

[drift freaq]

quote kreator...[trucks yeah. they make em fast.... except when was the last time you saw a nissan pickup or any other I4 truck that was fast? Personally - never. The FAST trucks you are talking about run v8 and turbo diesels. ]
err Kreator I am not siding with this kid , But Nissan race trucks have a history of being very fast. In fact their is a Frontier that is dominating Truck off road racing with a KA24de with ITB's yup and its a fully Nismo supported vehicle. Now with that said well all know thats a price is no object competition.
Now I take on Mister editorial. A long long time ago in a galaxy far far away( not really :D ) Actually more like the bay area . I was in high school and built up a 150 hp Normally aspirated L16 for my 510( 2000lb car go fast with 150 HP, hehehhe). It cost me close to 2k and that was at a time when 2k would get you a damn nice 240z . Fast forward. you want a link for building a KA24de? there are a couple of top engine building shops that do it. It will cost you 3900 from Top End Performance http://www.racetep.com/240sxna.html go look at what they list most everything you talked about and they are talking 210 HP at the wheels. hmmmmm Now I can go out get a SR20det clip for $2500 drop it in my car wire it up and guess what with a 3 inch downpipe , larger exhaust and a blowoff valve with a boost controller set to 9lbs I can pull 225 at the wheels .
Downpipe cost me $120 turbo exhaust $350-500 blowoff valve another $125-150 . manual boost controller( ghetto rig:D ) $50.
I have more at the wheel HP and I even saved around $500 . Or I can do the Aceinhole trick and do the well thought out researched Ka backyard turbo setup. Either way I come out way ahead of paying a machine shop big dollars, to build me a NA engine that will put out 210 hp at the wheels at the most, if I am lucky and being a KA will still start to die after 5500 rpm HP wise.
Don't get me wrong KA's have gobs of torque and KA turbo's are a force to be reckoned with. If you don't mind having a engine that performs like a big block V8 then the KA is your engine. If you want something that goes from 3500 clear up to 7500 pulling all the way up then your looking at a SR or a RB its that simple. SR's have a perfectly square bore and stroke which basically means they were built to rev . The only other engine for cars that revs higher is the CA18det which is capable of 9k .
Now what you should be actually doing is asking yourself what kind of engine do you like a torque machine or a HP machine.
I will say that for a 2 liter four the SR puts out very respectable torque though not in the bottom end like the KA. Yet like bill said were the KA seems to peter out the SR is alive and kicking .
You seriously do need to do a lot more reading before you come on here and challenge some of the people around here..
A lot of them have been messing with their cars and engines longer than you have owned your car.

[Kreator]

Originally posted by drift freaq
err Kreator I am not siding with this kid , But Nissan race trucks have a history of being very fast. In fact their is a Frontier that is dominating Truck off road racing with a KA24de with ITB's yup and its a fully Nismo supported vehicle. Now with that said well all know thats a price is no object competition.
Duh, ofcourse there are fast non v8 trucks. what i was talking was cars that you see on the road, built by PEOPLE, not companies. Any engine can be made fast with money put into it, question is can u afford it.

[mbmbmb23]

GMC Cyclone and Typhoon were some fast trucks. They used to drag race the Cyclones in FLA....of course they are turboed.










-m

[logo20]

driftyour240, you shouldn't believe everything you hear or read.
33% gain from head work is unrealistic, V8 gain about 20hp so the gain of an I4 is gonna probably less.
another thing:
250 to 280RWHP is do-able on a KA24E with the right cam, port and polish job, bored 40 over, stroked, thicker head gaskets, ported and modded MAFS, Completly modded ECU re mapped, custom intake, custom 4/2/1/2 exhaust.
compare the list above to the list in the link drift freaq posted.

good for 210rwhp
.040 overbore 10.5:1 JE Pistons
Total-Seal Ring pack
Race prepped stock rods with ARP bolts
Detailed and Heat Treated crankshaft
Lightened stock Flywheel
Balanced and Blueprinted rotating assembly
Race Ported, Flowed, CC’d Cylinder Head
3 Angle racing valve job with hand lap and back-cut
·Secondary Butterfly system removed.
Intake manifold match ported.
Throttle body opening enlarged for 65mm T/Body.
Camshafts reground and indexed.
Valves shimmed and adjusted.
Heavy Duty Head Bolts.
Felpro Gaskets

I would believe it because they've probably done it many times and the result they claim is probably right. now one of the mod that would make the biggest difference is raising the compression, and the first list doesn't even include raising the compression. it would be very stupid to believe in the first list since the hp gain is alot more than the second list-which we're almost sure is correct.

[driftyour40]

okay well thank you for starters for helping insted of talking sh*t well ive done some reading and its 10.5 comp on that n/a ka they bild for you and im getting sick of the fact that all i can get without spending a fourtune is 91 and thats still not cheap. anyhow i need to talk to a few more people about this and then well i relize its not going to happen on 91 oh yeah as far as dwn time i thought i would answer a few Q:'s down time. okay i was driving home from the store one day and some stupid old b*tch did not stop for a red light and did about 45mph into the rear of my s14 long story short im fine the car was totaled but insurance payed off the loan and let m keep the car so i have a ka with no car i also had S.T. anti-sway bars tokico hp's and cheap obx coilovers it was fun but it was an auto and slow so i had all that. and for crist sakes if i thought 15's where fast i would be fine with stock HP think people please no i just thought it was pretty good for a stock so called truck engiens but hey what the hell you bought the car, hate it all you want but remember you paied for it(jack @$$)and f-your goverment job i work for a living every day and get sh*t for it if you got all this time and money do something go for a walk lose some weight your car will be faster i wanted an sr befor i wanted to bild my ka and now its back to sr so much for haveing an extra engien hey anybody want to buy my ka24de $450 alot of miles still runs strong well i go to go need to fill out my aplication for U.T.I. and go to bed so i can go to work at 5am you basterd( you job dose own im jealous )if i missed anything tell me i'll be more than happy to respond. late