fully built Redtop with bad blow by

[midnight_rex]

To start it off i have a fully built redtop with only 700 miles on the motor. it has been dyno tuned here in houston by Secrete Services Auto. They did the break in procedure for me along with tuning. They had no blow by problems on the dyno as they performed 4 hard pulls for me to show that the motor is running strong and showing that my fuel pressure keeps droping and cant make any more power. the motor threw no smoke, never overheated, or the dipstick never poped out and sprayed oil under the hood at the time.

I was encountering a oil leak issue that i thought was coming from the head gasket so i pulled the head off to check if the headgasket had a bad seal between the head and the block. couldnt find anything wrong with the head gasket so i put the head back on and found that the valve cover was causing a leak on the back end of the head. i noticed after putting the back on and letting the motor run for a lil while, smoke began to come out of the exhaust (not pouring out but faint and noticable). it smelled very much like oil. i took it for a test drive down the street and as i would hit boost, smoke would blow out after each gear.

I stopped driving the car for a few months because i got into a small accident and needed to sources parts down to put the car back together. nothing happend to the motor.

finally got the car put back together and decided to check the ignition timing. i found out it was retarded too much so i adjusted it back to factory settings (15* BTDC) and it runs much better but still smokes. I did a test run after i adjusted the ignition timing and noticed smoke coming out from under the hood. I popped the hood and WALA! the dipstick popped out and sprayed oil everywhere. I've been scratching my head wondering what is causing this since i never beat on the motor. I have my PCV hooked up to a vacuum on the intake manifold. Then i have the crank tube going to the "T" on the valve cover, then to my catch can, and catch can to my intake on the turbo compressor inlet.

i did a compression test on the motor tonight and got 105psi - 90psi - 90psi - 75psi. i figure the rings are trash already?!!? all this happened AFTER i took the head off and put it back on. the motor seems to run strong and doesnt hesitate to hit boost at all. i would only imagine that the motor would run like shit with these kind of compression numbers.

below is my full setup:
Motor:
S13 Redtop SR20det
CP 86.5mm / 8.5:1 compression pistons
Eagle H beam rods
Factory nissan main bearings and rod bearings and thrust bearings
Bottom end assembly balanced
Crank polished
Block decked
Head decked
New oem oil pump/timing chain cover
New oem timing chain assembly
New oem oil strainer/pickup
New s14 sr water pump
Nismo thermostat
Circuit sports water pump and powersteering pulleys
ATI crank pulley damper
New drive belts
Mishimoto radiator and fans
JWT S4 cams
BC +1mm intake/exhaust valves
BC spring and retainers
New oem valve guides
Supertech valve stem seals
New oem rocker arms
New oem rocker arm guide and shims
P2M RAS
New Nissan Quest alternator
New oem front main seal
New oem rear main seal
New valve cover gasket
Apexi head gasket
ISIS intake manifold
ISIS fuel pressure regulator
Walbro 255 fuel pump

Drivetrain:
S13 sr20det tranny
89 maxima 6 puck clutch from tennessee clutch (grips amazingly awesome!)
Fidanza resurfaced flywheel
New slave cylinder
ISIS short shifter with polished shiftknob

Turbo setup:
Turbonetics T3/T4 50 trim - .63 ar – stage 3 wheel
Turbonetics evolution wastegate
Treadstone topmount cast stainless steel log manifold
2.5’’ downpipe to 3’’ full exhaust with apexi turbo N1 muffler
AEM wideband
Defi boost gauge
Nismo 740cc injectors

EMS:
Haltech PS 1000 w/ patch loom for the s13 SR20
Boost trim (mounted on center console)
Wideband wired to haltech

*what could possibly be the cause of this? motor still pulls hard at 20psi. it starts up fine with no hessitation. could this seriously be my rings that have gone bad already??! im going to pull the motor apart later this week to see what is really going on. i just want to get some input on what other people think it might be???

[DJPimpFlex]

I tend to think the motor wasn't broken in correctly. Do a leak down test to more accurately decide what is leaking. Did you re-torque the head down correctly after taking it off?

[negrosx13]

^^^ 700miles and already running the dyno?????

[smelly240]

700 miles?

proper engine break in doesnt take nearly that. hard break in procedures are what modern rings/cylinders require

A few heat cycles and 2 15 min sessions of moderate throttle - allowing hte engine to come down in gear pulling as much vac as possible... and u should be good to go.

did you hold the throttle WOT when you did the compression test?

also - you didnt reuse the HG right?

My dipstick shoots out if i dont ziptie it - over 24psi...

[midnight_rex]

700 miles?

proper engine break in doesnt take nearly that. hard break in procedures are what modern rings/cylinders require

A few heat cycles and 2 15 min sessions of moderate throttle - allowing hte engine to come down in gear pulling as much vac as possible... and u should be good to go.

did you hold the throttle WOT when you did the compression test?

also - you didnt reuse the HG right?

My dipstick shoots out if i dont ziptie it - over 24psi...
yes i did reuse the head gasket. its a apexi metal HG. yes i did hold the throttle WOT.

[midnight_rex]

i think the break in procedure wasnt done right. could a HG seriously cause oil to burn and give bad blow by?

[ETHANOLED SR]

I think a leak down is necessary at this point. STOP driving it, cylinder 4 compression is way too low compared to the rest. Hopefully a leak down will point out the problem and you can just get that fixed and then see what happens.

If you don't mind can you explain how the tuner broke your motor in and was it soon after first start up? or did you put some miles of mild driving first then tuned it under boost?

Everyone has a different method for breaking in a new motor, some say hard break in and some say easy break in. I think it depends on the motor and how the motor sounds on first start up. My tuner told me he listens for piston slap on first start up and decides what kind of break in the motor needs.

[h3rb]

yes i did reuse the head gasket. its a apexi metal HG. yes i did hold the throttle WOT.

youre not supposed to reuse a headgasket.its not gonna seal right if the crushed seals are getting re crushed.

[240sx123$]

i think the break in procedure wasnt done right. could a HG seriously cause oil to burn and give bad blow by?


Bad head gasket would allow coolant or oil into the combustion chamber causing the smoke. Its not blow by youre experiencing- blow by is when the compression blows past the rings into the bottom end. If you reused that head gasket, thats where its not sealing.. the rings are probably fine. You can do a leak down test to confirm this, but im fairly confident that if you reused the head gasket... thats your problem.

Youre not even supposed to reuse head bolts/studs, much less the gasket. The gasket is a crush gasket- once its torqued down, its crushed. When you remove it, its thinner than when new. Head bolts are supposed to stretch when you torque them down.. they wont be as strong if you reuse them, and your head could lift at high boost.

[landins13]

yes i did reuse the head gasket. its a apexi metal HG. yes i did hold the throttle WOT.

fuck a metal headgasket go oem, cheaper to replace if they go bad and they always seal. i had an hks, cometic, and apexi that would not seal even with a freshly decked block and cylinder head and arp headstuds, im on oem now no issues.

also to the guys who have their dipsticks popping out you are getting too much positive crankcase pressure or a lot of blowby. get a morroso catch can with a breather on it, all of the sealed catch cans do not let the positive pressure escape the engine efficiently, when i switched to a catch can with a breather i have yet to pop my dipstick out running 22lbs out of a 60 trim

[midnight_rex]

I think a leak down is necessary at this point. STOP driving it, cylinder 4 compression is way too low compared to the rest. Hopefully a leak down will point out the problem and you can just get that fixed and then see what happens.

If you don't mind can you explain how the tuner broke your motor in and was it soon after first start up? or did you put some miles of mild driving first then tuned it under boost?

Everyone has a different method for breaking in a new motor, some say hard break in and some say easy break in. I think it depends on the motor and how the motor sounds on first start up. My tuner told me he listens for piston slap on first start up and decides what kind of break in the motor needs.

i was using a remote tune from steve shadow but couldnt get it to start up fairly to heat cycle it and drive it. i then took it to a shop and had them break in the motor for me and then dyno tune it. they did the heat cycle on it and drove it on the dyno for break in. I test drove it before paying the shop and it drove very nice. i noticed the oil leak and thought that it was coming from the head gasket so i pulled the head to check then i reused the HG and thats when i started having this problem.

stupid me should have replaced the HG. but i guess we all make stupid mistakes.

[ETHANOLED SR]

Oh ok! Well change the HG and install a new one making sure to torque head bolts and cam caps to spec. I still recommend a leak down first though. Good Luck! :bow:

[midnight_rex]

im gonna do a leak down before i even pull apart the motor.

what pressure do i use when doing a leak down test? whats the recommended/factory psi for oil pressure on the sr20?

[codyace]

fuck a metal headgasket go oem, cheaper to replace if they go bad and they always seal. i had an hks, cometic, and apexi that would not seal even with a freshly decked block and cylinder head and arp headstuds, im on oem now no issues.

Probably the single worst advice I've ever read on the forum. The reason you had issues is simple

1. your machine shop sucks
2. you're not using quality hardware to secure the head
3. you don't know what you're doing.

ApexI and Cosworth gaskets have been proven to work on countless cars, and don't have any issues when installed correctly.

Maybe for a stock power car you can get away with the OEM stuff, but nothing like his car.




also to the guys who have their dipsticks popping out you are getting too much positive crankcase pressure or a lot of blowby. get a morroso catch can with a breather on it, all of the sealed catch cans do not let the positive pressure escape the engine efficiently, when i switched to a catch can with a breather i have yet to pop my dipstick out running 22lbs out of a 60 trim

Hmm, I've run my setup much like OEM now for countles track days and miles, and never had such an issue with routing my 'catch can' like OEM. Nissan's much smarter than I am in regard to their systems, I trust them.

[midnight_rex]

i didnt get to do a leak down test today. will try tomorrow at work.

i am driving the car for now because its my only transportation. it never smokes oil when i drive. only when i get on it hard. its mostly white smoke tho like its a coolant issue. but im not overheating and there is still coolant in my reservoir (which does work by the way lol). the level has gone down a lil tho and i can smell oil burning like its coming from the exhaust when im sitting at a light but no dramatic sight of smoke in the air and then i can smell a mixture of coolant also burning. I noticed this all today. the car drives good if im just driving around town and doesnt overheat or smoke. bad headgasket???

[midnight_rex]

Hmm, I've run my setup much like OEM now for countles track days and miles, and never had such an issue with routing my 'catch can' like OEM. Nissan's much smarter than I am in regard to their systems, I trust them.

hey cody, is there anyway you can send me a picture of your "catch can" setup?? im using a small circuit sports catch can on mine. here is a pic how my PCV system is setup (from crankcase to valve cover T to catch can then catch can to turbo inlet intake) i also have the PCV on the left rear side of the valve cover to a vacuum source on the intake manifold:

*this pic was when i had got into a wreck a coupld of months ago. all is fixed now ;)*

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v347/midnight_rex/1275923887181.jpg

[240sx123$]

i didnt get to do a leak down test today. will try tomorrow at work.

i am driving the car for now because its my only transportation. it never smokes oil when i drive. only when i get on it hard. its mostly white smoke tho like its a coolant issue. but im not overheating and there is still coolant in my reservoir (which does work by the way lol). the level has gone down a lil tho and i can smell oil burning like its coming from the exhaust when im sitting at a light but no dramatic sight of smoke in the air and then i can smell a mixture of coolant also burning. I noticed this all today. the car drives good if im just driving around town and doesnt overheat or smoke. bad headgasket???

100% DEFINITELY your headgasket.

[smelly240]

i knew the issue immediately after reading it - you didnt say "replaced head gasket"


apexi gaskets are the least reusable of them all... the fire ring/grommet thing gets crushed ONE TIME CORRECTLY.

Not to mention - Secret Services is who does chelsea denofa (sp? sry dude) stuff and that whole gang of green cars - i would trust them and i'm in the same business -

It DID NOT DO THIS BEFORE YOU TOOK IT APART

Do not listen to people telling you its the shop breaking it in wrong.

[midnight_rex]

Did a leak down test today.

#1 cyl - 10%
#2 cyl - 10%
#3 cyl - 20%
#4 cyl - 20%

but the compression readings are:
#1 cyl - 105
#2 cyl - 90
#3 cyl - 90
#4 cyl - 75

im going to pull the motor out next week and take the head off and replace the HG with a new apexi one. also going to reseal all the oil pans and the front cover with some silicone so i wont have anymore oil leaks.

whats the deal with the oil dipstick popping out and spilling oil? do i need a better catch can than what i have? or do i have my pcv system wrong?

[smelly240]

its because you reused the head gasket.

[Kingtal0n]

Motor:
S13 Redtop SR20det
CP 86.5mm / 8.5:1 compression pistons
Eagle H beam rods
Factory nissan main bearings and rod bearings and thrust bearings
Bottom end assembly balanced
Crank polished
Block decked
Head decked
New oem oil pump/timing chain cover
New oem timing chain assembly
New oem oil strainer/pickup
New s14 sr water pump
Nismo thermostat
Circuit sports water pump and powersteering pulleys
ATI crank pulley damper
New drive belts
Mishimoto radiator and fans
JWT S4 cams
BC +1mm intake/exhaust valves
BC spring and retainers
New oem valve guides
Supertech valve stem seals
New oem rocker arms
New oem rocker arm guide and shims
P2M RAS
New Nissan Quest alternator
New oem front main seal
New oem rear main seal
New valve cover gasket
Apexi head gasket

You Put that much time and $$ into an engine, use a brand new head gasket please, even if its not your problem.

[smelly240]

ziptie the dipstick in.

[codyace]

You Put that much time and $$ into an engine, use a brand new head gasket please, even if its not your problem.

for sure

Nice seeing you around here again too

[Davidna2fi]

I'm from Houston and have known Dave and his crew at SSA for years and for sure they know how to break in any engine, and yes driving a car in a controlled environment is the best way to break in any engine. If Delgado did your tuning and break in, IMO, when you reassembled your head, you changed your timing dramatically and didn't set it back right. I've done a couple SRs and even brought a 3 day engine refresh with cams in an NA SR20DE with S4s to their dyno and pulled off a 156 WHP with a rom tune and cam tuning, after only have 1K miles on the engine pulling to 8K and running a little lean due to tune, ( perfect compression after 4K miles after readjusting fuel pressure 180 all across, and now that same engine is turboed. Timing is everything on an SR build, you mess up the CAS and don't reset it properly, you screw up a great tune. I truely hope you made a scribe mark on your CAS and put it exactly like it was when you took it off. If you did not, even the slightest bit of misalignment will throw off your timing and tune dramatically. I would take the car back to SSA and have them stick a bore scope down your cylinders to see if there are any deep score marks or top of piston rings( cross your fingers)