Castrol Edge....Penzoil Platinum???

[ShimiBoi]

Has anyone tried Castrol Edge or the new Penzoil Ultra? If anyone has please let me know what you thought of either one or both. Just trying to see if they are worth all the hype or if I should stick to Mobile 1. Thanks for your opinions.

[codyace]

What have you been running?
How long have you been using it?
Have you had any issues with it?

If the answers are all positive above, stick with what you have. Sure some stat nerd will come in here and explain how one has more of XXX than YYY and other nonsensical stuff, the reality is, any quality oil will work just fine for your application. Stick with something you can find anywhere on the shelf, and that is affordable.

[garagelu]

I don't see how you can expect the average person to "like" one oil over another if the engine is running like normal. People like to use a certain oil just because of advertising or that person has had good luck with a certain brand. And even if something happens to the engine, you can't contribute that to the oil for certain.

Without oil analysis, you can't really tell the difference between two oils.

[codyace]

Without oil analysis, you can't really tell the difference between two oils.

And even then, I take those results with a grain of salt, as what is better on paper may not translate to 'much' better performance on the street.

As I tell people, there are commuters who drive 100 miles daily into NYC and home, stop and go most of the way, and they go 150k/200k on a car using cheap filters and oil, without issue.....

[KansaiDrifter]

The only differences would be from going from like a 10w30 standard to a 5w30 synthetic. The average person won't be able to tell much difference. I run Royal Purple everything, it's a bit more high end but it does drop temps. Ams oil is my second choice, Mobile1 is my third. You can get Royal Purple now from Wal-Mart even so it's available all over the place. Oil is one thing on your car to consider "cheap insurance" so do it right.

Also, what engine are you running? That will determine your weight needed. I'm guessing your a Cali guy, so I'd recommend at least a 10w30 or heavier. You could get by with a 15w40 with the heat. The hotter=the heavier. The colder=the lighter, mainly for cold starts.

One more point is that oil is only as good as the filter that keeps it clean. Cheap filters aren't even designed for synthetics either so make sure and ask to make sure the filter element will work with synthetics. Typically the upper level/more expensive filters are synthetic ok. I run Napa Gold filters, basically wix filters and synthetic ok. K&N makes a great oil filter also, it will raise oil pressure a little too (great for ka rattle lol).

[KansaiDrifter]

As I tell people, there are commuters who drive 100 miles daily into NYC and home, stop and go most of the way, and they go 150k/200k on a car using cheap filters and oil, without issue.....

^They don't have issues until you take off a valve cover and it's sludged black and typically those people don't think or really care about their cars. But as long as you religiously change the cheap oil it's, well ok at best. Usually when theirs a lot of sludge build up it's cheap oil or wasn't changed on schedule :(

[!Zar!]

Get your diesel on bro.

[codyace]

Also, what engine are you running? That will determine your weight needed. I'm guessing your a Cali guy, so I'd recommend at least a 10w30 or heavier. You could get by with a 15w40 with the heat. The hotter=the heavier. The colder=the lighter, mainly for cold starts.

Certainly, but 15w40 isn't going to 'wear out' a motor any faster than 5w30. That's a fact.


One more point is that oil is only as good as the filter that keeps it clean. Cheap filters aren't even designed for synthetics either so make sure and ask to make sure the filter element will work with synthetics.

DO you have any proof of this? If that's the case, then EVERYONE that runs a oil lube shop, or runs on their cars will have issues. No offense, but I'm willing to bet it makes zero difference in regard to filtration (dyno vs synth). If this is truely an issue with filters, than why dont' parts stores ask 'oh is it synth or regular oil car' when making filters and or selling them? Trust me when I say I've installed/bough/sold tens of thousands of filters at our shop, and never once have heard of such a thing.


Typically the upper level/more expensive filters are synthetic ok. I run Napa Gold filters, basically wix filters and synthetic ok. K&N makes a great oil filter also, it will raise oil pressure a little too (great for ka rattle lol).

KA rattle comes from tensioner guides and upper guide, not oil pressure.

^They don't have issues until you take off a valve cover and it's sludged black and typically those people don't think or really care about their cars. But as long as you religiously change the cheap oil it's, well ok at best. Usually when theirs a lot of sludge build up it's cheap oil or wasn't changed on schedule :(

How many engines have you tore down or had issues with running that sort of milage and condition? I actually have (namely for valve cover gasket leaks and similar stuff)...NO such sludge build up at all, so long as the oil is changed every 3 to 5k miles.

Again, are you saying this from experience, or from what 'you think'...I'm gonna bet the latter as I know from first hand experience that you are wrong.


Trust me, I'm not saying we should all go out and run wolf's head or mixed conoco in our cars, but the reality is, for most stock based setups it will be just fine for them. YOu can think Royal Purple or AMSOil or Elf or similar is prolonging your engine's life, but the reality is, not a single brand of oil can claim that, nor state it.

[KansaiDrifter]

I happen to have been racing professionally since I've been 7 years old along with my father and myself are mechanics for a living so I've had a few engines from stock to fully built 360 Sprint Car engines torn down and rebuilt ;)

I didn't claim 15w40 would "wear" anything out, heck we ran 20w50 VR1 Valvoline racing oil in the Sprint car with the 4gallon Dry sump system, what I'm saying is like it's stated, if your in a hotter climate it works great, if you're in a colder climate I would only run that in a turbo charged vehicle, diesel trucks, sr's, rb's, etc that run higher temps to compensate the cold climate. It's actually information from the underside of the hood vehicle information stickers or from your owners manual/factory service manual.

Sounds like you're auto parts stores aren't up with times then. When I'd walk into my local Napa that's the first thing they'd ask when they see people with Synthetic oils. I know that places like O'Reily's and Auto zone that have slacker employees and don't really care, at least around here lol. And it's not the filtration, it's the filter element itself as far as the synthetic application goes. And just because you've never heard something doesn't mean that it doesn't have truth behind it, that's just close minded.

*Here's a good webpage to look at, notice that the base model Fram filters aren't checked/designed for Synthetic blend or Synthetic oils.....
FRAM® Xtended Guard (http://www.fram.com/products/oil_filters/fram_xtended_guard_oil_filter)

KA rattles are from when the timing chain has been stretched out from high millage/the equal amount of wear from racing the engine which can cause lower millage KA's to have chain rattle. What happens is the chain needs more tension to take up the slack that is now caused. The easiest way to get it to quite down without taking the entire front upper cover off is to remove the upper chain guide, which is also a Nissan factory recall, and run a higher oil pressure. The timing chain tensioner runs off oil pressure, raise the oil pressure and it'll push the tensioner further out thus tightening the chain's slack and quiting it down, sometimes doesn't completely eliminate it, but it's a vast improvement. That's also why the tensioner is spring loaded and self adjusting via oil pressure.

I believe this last point we're actually somewhat agreeing on, it's ok to run the base oil as long as it's changed at a max of 3k miles. I change my Royal Purple in my street daily driver that isn't raced every 6k miles with a filter change and oil top off every 3k miles. And I have torn valve covers off KA's that ran awesome only to find that the head studs had mounds of sludge on them from not having oil changed often enough and using base cheap oil, (girl daily driver car, even an auto).

I feel another thing I should point out in relation to the oiling question is that think of the filter. What happens to a filter when it's full? In the case of oil filters the oil starts to bypass the filter in some cases altogether since there's no filter element left to flow through. What then happens, the sludge and debris is thrown back into the loop of the oiling system and just deposits the sludge since there's no where else for it to go thus is my point that the filter is a huge a crucial part of the oiling system.

The better the filter, the more element it holds, the longer it can go and filter properly. That's also why even though say Mobile1 has a 15k mile oil life, the filter still needs to be changed regularly to keep up with that.

[Bigsyke]

As I tell people, there are commuters who drive 100 miles daily into NYC and home, stop and go most of the way, and they go 150k/200k on a car using cheap filters and oil, without issue.....

Without issue because they get their oil up to temp almost every time they drive. They are constantly purging the oil of fuel dilution. The gap of Conventional vs synthetic oils in the past 200k miles of average driving has narrowed significantly.



Also, what engine are you running? That will determine your weight needed. I'm guessing your a Cali guy, so I'd recommend at least a 10w30 or heavier. You could get by with a 15w40 with the heat. The hotter=the heavier. The colder=the lighter, mainly for cold starts.

One more point is that oil is only as good as the filter that keeps it clean. Cheap filters aren't even designed for synthetics either so make sure and ask to make sure the filter element will work with synthetics. Typically the upper level/more expensive filters are synthetic ok. I run Napa Gold filters, basically wix filters and synthetic ok. K&N makes a great oil filter also, it will raise oil pressure a little too (great for ka rattle lol).

Why a 10w30? Why not a 0w30? 0w40? or 5w20? Why not a 5w30? Do those numbers even mean anything? How do you know a 20 weight like redline doesnt have a higher HtHs than a 30 weight mobil1? Or a 30 weight have a higher 100*c viscrosity rating than a 40 weight? There someone in Miami running 0w20 in his murcielago. look at HtHs instead of 100*c viscosity.

And the oil is only as good as the air filter on your car, much more important than your oil filter. Ive never heard about filters not being able to use synthetics. If your oil pressure increases due to an oil filter, I would investigate the oil filter and associated damage it has cause.


Get your diesel on bro.

Cant beat Rotella T6, perfect Zddp levels, great for turbos.

[ShimiBoi]

Well then, I run a nearly stock KA in SoCal. I use Mobil1 10w30 usually with a Mobil1 or Fram filter. I just started noticing the chain rattle so I removed the upper guide...but I was too lazy to remove the lower one. However, the rattle is still there. Will simply changing the oil filter to a K&N raise the oil pressure? I'm coming up on 5k now and I'm planning on going back to the K&N oil filter to see if the chain rattle goes away. I guess I'll be sticking with Mobil1 then....or Royal Purple if it's on sale lol. Thanks for the info.

[codyace]

I happen to have been racing professionally since I've been 7 years old along with my father and myself are mechanics for a living so I've had a few engines from stock to fully built 360 Sprint Car engines torn down and rebuilt ;)

Race car drivers make the worst mechanics, in my experience ;) Nice you work on Ferarri's, but that isn't a quantifying way to prove experience. I may not have the 'funding' of a 360 team, but do have quiote a bit of experience in NASA Northeast, with many different teams. Granted most has been ITA/PTE cars, but the attention to detail remains the same. I'm not looking to get into a pissing match, but we've been around for 60 years as a family business, I've grown up with grease under my nails.

It's actually information from the underside of the hood vehicle information stickers or from your owners manual/factory service manual.

Yes, trust a 15 year old 'suggestion' based upon older oils. My 'thought' on oil, is to use what works best for the 'application' not the weather. If anything, you can't take information on nearly 2 decade old snythetics and apply it to today's engines



Sounds like you're auto parts stores aren't up with times then. When I'd walk into my local Napa that's the first thing they'd ask when they see people with Synthetic oils. I know that places like O'Reily's and Auto zone that have slacker employees and don't really care, at least around here lol. And it's not the filtration, it's the filter element itself as far as the synthetic application goes. And just because you've never heard something doesn't mean that it doesn't have truth behind it, that's just close minded.

Considering we have a Fleet of Semi's, and do services on multiple large accounts, I'd think the oil reps we deal with would inform us what to run. In fact I'll be seeing the Shell guy at the end of the week, and will ask him. I'm certain he'll know.


KA rattles are from when the timing chain has been stretched out from high millage/the equal amou....... That's also why the tensioner is spring loaded and self adjusting via oil pressure.

Thanks for the history lesson - I had my first turbo KA back in 2003, I know a thing or two about them, and their guide/tensioner/upper guide issues (as I said above).


The better the filter, the more element it holds, the longer it can go and filter properly. That's also why even though say Mobile1 has a 15k mile oil life, the filter still needs to be changed regularly to keep up with that.

Most certainly: I run a FRPP filter from a 5.0 on my SR. I'll never doubt filter's, but often times regard some of the 'niche brand' ones to be overkill.

look at HtHs instead of 100*c viscosity.

...

Cant beat Rotella T6, perfect Zddp levels, great for turbos.

As I stated above, Oil Nerd alert! ;) I never really bought into that stuff to well, again, when's the last time we've saw an engine failing due to oil type used.....

We've run Rotella in all of our trucks now for 7 years, certainly good stuff. However they made a funny comment at their own seminars....which is what I stated above...if you're running 'brand A' and have good luck with 'brand A', then stick with 'brand A'....

[JRas]

:drama:

I've always ran Mobile 1 10w-30 in my KA, it's lucky it even gets synthetic.

on oil analysis "And even then, I take those results with a grain of salt, as what is better on paper may not translate to 'much' better performance (http://zilvia.net/f/#) on the street."

Why? it's people sending in there used oil to see how it preforms. If anything it's probably the best way to determine how well the oil is doing. Do you honestly think the people who send in oil haven't taken their car to the track?

[shinobis13hb]

i love my diesel oil=] rotella baby=]

[S14DB]

Ignoring all the battle over who has changed the most oil.


It sucks that the US is the only developed country that allows oils from organic base stocks to be sold as Synthetic.
Hydrocracked/Hydroisomerized = API Group III base oils. Chevron, Shell, and other petrochemical companies developed processes involving catalytic conversion of feed stocks under pressure in the presence of hydrogen into high quality mineral lubricating oil. In 2005, production of GTL (gas-to-liquid) Group III base stocks began, the best of which perform much like polyalphaolefin. Group III base stocks are considered synthetic motor oil only in the United States; elsewhere they are not allowed to be marketed as "synthetic".

I know US Castrol Syntec is an organic base. Is Castrol Edge an organic base also? I notice the bottle says not for sale outside of the US which makes me wonder...

Pennzoil Platinum is probably the same story as they are owned by Shell. They still put that wax shit in their oil?

[Bigsyke]

Ignoring all the battle over who has changed the most oil.


It sucks that the US is the only developed country that allows oils from organic base stocks to be sold as Synthetic.


I know US Castrol Syntec is an organic base. Is Castrol Edge an organic base also? I notice the bottle says not for sale outside of the US which makes me wonder...

Pennzoil Platinum is probably the same story as they are owned by Shell. They still put that wax shit in their oil?

All oil at wallmart (excluding Royal purple) including Mobil1 0w40 is a group III. Penzoil Plat/Ultra/T6 is a hydrocracked group III+.

Castrol Edge is a group III.

[Pacman]

I use Valvoline Full Synthetic just cause I can pump it out of the 55 gallon jug at work. I will keep using it even after I quit this place. I like the oil. I was using Mobil 1 but the break-down rating is better that Mobil.

[S14DB]

All oil at wallmart (excluding Royal purple) including Mobil1 0w40 is a group III. Penzoil Plat/Ultra/T6 is a hydrocracked group III+.

Castrol Edge is a group III.

Got a list of the Group IV and V's?

[!Zar!]

I think people worry too much about oil.

[codyace]

I guess my 'overall' question is, has it been proven to any degree than running a more 'oriented' oil (AMSoil for lack of other example), or DIesel Grade like Rotella/Delvac will make the engine last longer/run better/survive longer' than any traditional off the shelf synthetic like Mobil1, or Castrol GTX or similar


That's all I'm curious about. Realistically speaking, I can't forsee any true advantage of one over the other if you are changing them regularly or often (heck I change oil before and after every track event, but that's me)....

I'm not disagreeing with 'what is in them' or 'on paper what is better', i'm curious to find real world examples of any 'better' oil really being 'better' over the life of what we drive. I don't expect my SR to last 100,000 miles, nor do I think anyone on here does.....

[!Zar!]

To me, what it comes down to is the fact that the average driver doesn't change their oil on time.

Many people run 10k, 20k+ miles on their car without an oil change, and the only time they even think about it is either on a whim, or if the oil check light/low pressure light comes on.

That is who all these expensive ass oils are for.

When it comes to people tracking their car, proper viscosity choice is key, along with changing it after ever event.

[Bigsyke]

I guess my 'overall' question is, has it been proven to any degree than running a more 'oriented' oil (AMSoil for lack of other example), or DIesel Grade like Rotella/Delvac will make the engine last longer/run better/survive longer' than any traditional off the shelf synthetic like Mobil1, or Castrol GTX or similar


Abosultely. You want to use an oil that the FSM calls for, hence ours is IIRC a SH oil, which includes a dose of additives correctly forumlated for our engines. Newer oils including redlines have backed down some of the oils, which is why people are switching to HDEO Diesel oils that retain ~1200ppm of Zddp, which for our engines is the correct additive currently for protecting camshaft wear (on pre 95' KA24de's). Phosphates also act as anti-wear along with anti-corrosion, and calcium helps with acidic corrosion.

All of these newer oils that are energy conserving have reduced these additives to reduce emissions and catalytic converter damage when a decent amount of oil is burned. This means anti-wear is decreased on engines that demand a stiff package :D, that require A higher TBN for fuel dilution and Extended OCI's and racing.

Read this if you want to understand base oils.
http://www.zddplus.com/TechBrief10%20-%20Oil%20Base%20Stocks.pdf


For racing im sure beign Group III/IV/V isnt as important as its resistant to shearing, and camshaft wear. An oil with a less spread is prefered to an oil such as mobil1 0w40 which shears down to a 30weight almost right away. A 10w30 or 20w50 if not a solid 40 weight would be ideal for racing do to the oils can only shear down to the Xw rating. A 0WXX can shear as much as it wants, once the Viscosity improvers wear out. Redlines 0wXX oils are amazing due to the HtHs ratings (high temp High stress), and are a POE base which is an ester which provides an almost etched in buffer between any debris/water/fuel/metal and the engine surfaces. The oil also resists shearing soo well because of the nature of the Base oil.

In Europe it HAS to be a Group IV oil to be called synthetic. In North America a Group III can be called Synthetic.


Group IV (4) and Group V (5) base oil (synthetics) are chemically made from uniform molecules with no paraffin and don't need Viscosity Additives. However, in recent years Group III (3) based oils have been labeled "synthetic" through a legal loophole. These are petroleum based Group II (2) oils that have had the sulfur refined out making them more pure and longer lasting. Group III (3) "synthetic" motor oils must employ Viscosity Additives being petroleum based.
Group V (5) based synthetics are usually not compatible with petroleum or petroleum fuels and have poor seal swell. These are used for air compressors, hydraulics, etc. It's the Group IV (4) PAO based synthetics that make the best motor oils. They are compatible with petroleum based oils and fuels plus they have better seal swell than petroleum. Typically PAO based motor oils use no Viscosity Additives yet pass the multi-grade viscosity requirements as a straight weight! This makes them ideal under a greater temperature range. One advantage of not having to employ Viscosity Improving additives is having a more pure undiluted lubricant that can be loaded with more longevity and performance additives to keep the oil cleaner longer with better mileage/horsepower.
How do I know what motor oil is a Group IV (4) based PAO synthetic motor oil?
As more and more large oil companies switched their "synthetic" motor oils to the less expensive/more profitable Group III (3) base stocks it has become much easier to identify which are PAO based true synthetic. Of the large oil companies, only Mobil 1, as of this writing (12-15-2007), is still a PAO based true synthetic (false, they disclosed as of recently they are now a GroupIII+). The rest, including Castrol Syntec, have switched to the cheaper/more profitable Group III (3) petroleum based "synthetic" motor oil. AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils are PAO based true synthetic motor oils with the exception of the short oil drain XL-7500 synthetic motor oils sold at some Auto Parts Stores and Quick Oil Change Centers. This leaves more than 20 PAO based true synthetic motor oils manufactured and marketed by AMSOIL with only 4 Group III (3) based synthetic motor oils identified by the "XL-7500" product name.

The only true US Synthetics I know of are

Redline which is mainly Group V POE,
Amsoil which is mainly Group IV POE, with the Exception of the XL series
German Castrol which is mainly PAO Group IV
Royal purple is a group IV PAO, but uses a Group I as an additive carrier
Motul 300V Group V

There is no list anywhere, you just compile as you go. However I doubt any one oil is a strictly group III or Group IV. For instance Valvoline syntec could be 70-80% Group III but 20-30% PAO.

On the other hand Im sure the lines are blurry, and there is no reason to stick with a group IV/V because its a higher group. I went from using Amsoil every 3k miles to using Rotella T6, or Penzoil Ultra. The base stocks didnt concern me, the additive package did, and Since I was changing the oil out way to soon anyway, there would have been no extra anti-wear benifit to using something like redline oil, unless I really abused my oil by throwing tons of heat and fuel at it, which in case a POE oil would be the correct choice(FI). Lots of turbo users have gone with Rotella T6, along with some 350/370/G35 users since their engines are hard on oil and they bring back beautiful reports. The reason I use Rotella T6 is due to the 1200 ppm of Zddp, and a high dose of Phosphates.

[Mangudai]

Edit: Nvm you mentioned it.

[Mangudai]

I understand that you wont truly see the benefits of Group V synthetic oils if you're changing it out every 3k but does the same apply to oil filters? Being that the filter was designed for a car from 1996 is it even made for synthetic oil? I had the mind to buy a bulk of oem filters and see whatever to these fancy aftermarket filters they try to sell you in auto part stores.

[S14DB]

I understand that you wont truly see the benefits of Group V synthetic oils if you're changing it out every 3k but does the same apply to oil filters? Being that the filter was designed for a car from 1996 is it even made for synthetic oil? I had the mind to buy a bulk of oem filters and see whatever to these fancy aftermarket filters they try to sell you in auto part stores.
Filters made for synthetic? Sounds like marketing BS to me.

The OEM filter was designed for 3-5k miles. Late model cars that run synthetic with extended drain intervals usually have filters that can be run for longer. VW/Audi can be run for 10k for example.
When you run an synthetic for an extended period with a 3-5k filter you have to change it out halfway and top off the oil lost in the filter.

The fancy filters usually have better internals. Drain back valve is higher quality, filter medium is finer and/or more quantity. Even with increased pleats the filtering capacity is not significantly increased.

My major problem is that a lot of aftermarket filters are shrinking in size. They put increased pleats in the filter then shrink the size of the canister. I have to think this decreases the capacity.
Several Manufactures have increased their filter size to combat sludge issues in certain motors.

Next oil change I am going to install a relocation kit to run a larger filter.

[Bigsyke]

The proper filter to run on a KA24DE is a pureone PL20195. The filters have different media, each have an optimal mileage before they need to be changed. They have different ADBV's and bypass settings.

A Pureone will have better filtering with the trade off of maybe some flow. To combat this you install an oversized Pureone (PL20195). They also have the best ADBV ive seen, which hold pressure and prevent dry starts better than any other filter out there.

[Mangudai]

Interesting. Would the flow be sufficient on a very high output KA?

[Bigsyke]

Interesting. Would the flow be sufficient on a very high output KA?

Yes, an oversized filter sacrifices little if no flow at all, it maintains a higher flow throughout the OCI vs a smaller filter.