Mackin Playing Hardball

[articdragon192]

MACKIN INDUSTRIES IS OUR HERO! STOP THE COPY! - Autofashion USA (http://www.autofashionusa.com/content/uncategorized/mackin-industries-is-our-hero-stop-the-copy.html)

Thoughts?

[revat619]

Makes perfect sense.

[enkei2k]

what about ROTA???? i thought those came out wayyyyy before Varrstoen (at least for me)

...come on guys.

[articdragon192]

Rotas have a slight variation at least. Can't really fake the funk with those. Varstoens are a much much closer copy. I mean, when people are trying to pass off Varstoens as the real deal, I'd worry.

[blueshark123]

I always see these replicas i remember when i wanted real te37 but I now feel like they are played out thanks to all the knock-offs

[MADE]

I think it's the right thing to do, if a shop sell both items. But I still don't think knock-off are going to kill the originator. IMO the person who buys "knock-offs" never intended to save an buy the real deal. The people who really want it save every penny and buy the real deal.

[Brian]

I like the idea.
VeilSide has been doing it for a long time too. Although, that doesn't really matter anymore. lol

[yokotas13]

best thing yet. more companies need to do this. i think knockoff wheels are buillshit.

[simmode1]

It's commonsense, IMO. Of course you don't sell two nearly identical products from different companies but with wildly different price points at the same marketplace. It's an obvious conflict of interest... duh. I'm surprised that it was even necessary to put out a memo.

[driftsilvias13]

Makes total sense.

[Om1kron]

Does anyone know someone who personally works at mackin that can get me in touch with someone who isn't going to blow me off? All I want is a set of the black/red carbon center stickers for my authentic rays center caps. They keep telling me I got to spend another 120 dollars for the black centers.

So I have bootleg stickers on my legit caps and it urks the fuck out of me. Even if people still think they're work wheels.

[lawrenceyang]

maybe everyone else is just playing soft ball ?

[ronmcdon]

It's a reasonably effective approach for honest dealers.
If you can't enforce copyright laws (which may or not be there),
you can at least do this encourage dealers to act in your best interests.

Now whether or not dealers can get away with simple loopholes is another matter.
I suppose it's not impossible to sell the 'fake Volks' under a different name,
but say share the same warehouse & other company resources.
Unless Volk makes surprise audits of dealers' warehouse & offices, it would be difficult to enforce something like this.

[simmode1]

^^^That's a good point. For example, I know some ppl have ordered Rota's thru Discount Tire, even though Rota isn't listed on their website. I wonder if this would include Discount Tire, who sell Rays and Volks? Not really sure if they order Varrstoens, though...

[illvialuver]

if you are reading this and you work at a shop that sells both the real deal and the knock off, you are a retard. No common sense.

This makes total sense. good job mackin

[ayuaddict]

What seriously tripped me out was that i went to their warehouse once, they had 19" replicas with Rays Engineering and MONOBLOCK cast into the wheels. Apparently they had no intention of selling these but i found it kind of scary.

[HyperTek]

maybe those where replicas that they where looking over.

Those replica companies just need to make their own wheel design and push their image as a good quality wheel. If i had my own company, i surely wouldnt want a reputation as being a unoriginal copycat.

[azndoc]

I've read the side of a Rota wheel's box and that shit cracks me up.

I'm just sick of the price raise every fucking year with Mackin and now it's really bad.

So yes I really dislike knock off wheels and believe that they Mackin message is right.

Say no to knock offs.

What gets to me are the people who spend money on parts, paint, and then get knock off wheels.

I remember at FD LBC there was a really cool corolla wagon and everything was done legit, but then I looked at the wheels thinking they were watanabes and instead they were rewinds. Just killed the car for me.

[ManoNegra]

I applaud their decision

[upsdude]

i like my varrstoen rims, even if they are knock off/ one-off's whatever.

[articdragon192]

What seriously tripped me out was that i went to their warehouse once, they had 19" replicas with Rays Engineering and MONOBLOCK cast into the wheels. Apparently they had no intention of selling these but i found it kind of scary.

I've seen pictures of those floating around online as well. It's as if they completely copied the design, and then later just went to the drawing board and just erased the lettering on the drawings, lol

[MADE]

I see a "knock off" revolution happening, and every one is going to start rocking knock-offs. You don't have to aggree but look around, its already in progress, and the interwebs will spread it. Honestly there is nothing wrong with replica's just don't try to pass it off as the real deal.

[ripnbst]

They have every right to do this and I think its a smart move.

[Okinawandrifter87]

I actually like this idea that they are putting in effect.

[ripnbst]

Is it bad that Zilvia allows advertising for these Vorstoen guys on this board?

While were on the topic of conflict of interest LOL, the creation of this thread and advertising for them...

[articdragon192]

Zilvia has Extreme Dimensions on board as well. Can't say I blame Zilvia, because it needs the support as well. It'd be hard to turn down money in order to stay running you know? And ultimately, the members are the board are the ones that decide whether or not to support the vendor. With that said...
Seems like the CE28 is the next wheel being copied :/

[tricky_ab]

What gets to me are the people who spend money on parts, paint, and then get knock off wheels.

THIS! And props to Mackin for doing this. I hope a lot more companies take note of this.

[ayuaddict]

I see a "knock off" revolution happening, and every one is going to start rocking knock-offs. You don't have to aggree but look around, its already in progress, and the interwebs will spread it. Honestly there is nothing wrong with replica's just don't try to pass it off as the real deal.

Well i guess all we can do is not buy knockoff products. I can say i only own authentic wheels, and i think I'll keep it that way.

[Okinawandrifter87]

Ive yet to buy a "real" set of rims. I rock the oem's as I save for something baller and I'm glad to say I'm not part of the fake rims train. You get what you pay for even if its looks and isn't something that can break.

[VIPDRIFTING]

Ive yet to buy a "real" set of rims. I rock the oem's as I save for something baller and I'm glad to say I'm not part of the fake rims train. You get what you pay for even if its looks and isn't something that can break.

Congrats to you, Its better to save up and run legit jdm wheels. So tired of seeing mb's/xxr's/mustang reps on nicely done cars. Like other member said it just ruins the whole build for me. I must say though up here in the northwest there has been a slow progression of people starting to rock legit wheels. :snoop:

[drift freaq]

There was a guy selling fake O.Z. Ultraleggara's new on craigslist. It was pretty crazy they were one of the newer models and the price was insane but from the pics they looked for real, till........
I was checking sizes on Ultraleggara's on Tirerack and I started noticing that the wheels on Craigslist while having the O.Z. name cast into them, were missing critical other stuff O.Z. casted into the wheel. I put the pics side by side and realized the guy was selling fakes.

The worst part was he had ads running all over Craigslist all over the state. I called up the number and he said it was a warehouse in Downey. I reported the post to Craigslist.

[wh0aitznic0]

Well i guess all we can do is not buy knockoff products. I can say i only own authentic wheels, and i think I'll keep it that way.

http://www.vertex-usa.com/images/noknockoffs/NOknockLOGO.gif

On a serious note, I see some instances where knockoffs are acceptable. Aero, for example.

[articdragon192]

Fake aero isn't even an option for my car. It fits SOOOOO bad.

[sw20>>s14]

its about damn time...the replica CEs have been out for a while now and i dont see it stopping with other designs anytime in the near future...just spewing at the mouth, but i would argue that a vendor losing mackin and selling varrstoens would probably be more profitable than selling rays...

[MADE]

its about damn time...the replica CEs have been out for a while now and i dont see it stopping with other designs anytime in the near future...just spewing at the mouth, but i would argue that a vendor losing mackin and selling varrstoens would probably be more profitable than selling rays...



DING DING DING, I was thinking the same thing.

[articdragon192]

its about damn time...the replica CEs have been out for a while now and i dont see it stopping with other designs anytime in the near future...just spewing at the mouth, but i would argue that a vendor losing mackin and selling varrstoens would probably be more profitable than selling rays...

I was thinking the same thing, I just couldn't say it, lol. Scary thought.

[VIPDRIFTING]

I was thinking the same thing, I just couldn't say it, lol. Scary thought.

I wouldn't risk losing the ability to sell Volks/Advans etc. to sell a smaller market brand wheel. Who's to say that Varrstoen won't get sued and go under in a year? Losing a relationship with Mackin and there products would be idiotic for any vendor/company.

[HyperTek]

i can imagine volk te37v being copied by rota

[tricky_ab]

i can imagine volk te37v being copied by rota


LALALALAALLLLLLLLAAAAAAAAAA I can't hear you....

[ronmcdon]

It's just very fucking hard to justify a set of authetic Volks today.

A couple years it was around 2k for a set of 4 wheels.
Ok, kinda pricey, but I'm willing to pay for it.
Now it's what, around 3k!! or an outrageous 50% premium.
Not like inflation or the cost of aluminum has gone up 50%
Seriously, even if you could afford it, it's hard for many, including myself to pay that kinda money.
Seems like a real waste.
I've purchased around 4 sets of Volks in the past, 2 of which I still have.
I'd opt for some cheaper Advans/Works/etc.
Again, 2k is fine.
Even a reasonable increase to say 2,400 I can stomach even if with reluctance, but that's my limit on wheels.
Not like it's my only hobby.

Id be really interesting to see the actual sales figures of Volks today.
I completely agree with the dude saying that it's more profitable selling knockoffs compared to Volks.
I just don't see a large market for Volks at their price-point.
And seriously, come out with something nice looking besides the TE's and CE's.

[Om1kron]

It's just very fucking hard to justify a set of authetic Volks today.

LOL you speak as if volk RACING builds their wheels for people to show up to the local coffee and boba meets.

First and foremost their wheels especially the popular ones are for RACING. and I don't know if you knew this, but RACING is expensive. Aint shit cheap about it.

A couple years it was around 2k for a set of 4 wheels.
Ok, kinda pricey, but I'm willing to pay for it.
yeah gram lights, their "show car" wheels

Now it's what, around 3k!! or an outrageous 50% premium.
Anything TE, CE, or GT has always been 3k for anything larger than a 17 inch wheel wider than 8 inches. It's just nobody was worried about fitment, how much wheel can I shove under the 240. It was give me 18x8's that's what I would put on my honda, I don't even know what tire size to use, let me ask on the forums.

someone put an 18x9 on a 240 and the internet went nuts, people started crying tears of joy. It was then when someone fit 12 inch wide wheels on a 240 that other performance enthusiast were sure the work of the devil was at hand.

Wheels are expensive, when I think of wheels I think of the 4 things making contact with the ground connected to my tires that my life depends on. Is my life worth a bit more than 3 grand.

FUCK YES.

Is my life worth a pair of rotas, bride copies, and stretched tires.

FUCK NO.

but I'm nobody to tell the rest of the world how to spend their money.

[ronmcdon]

If you think I'm ranting about the price alone, you're misunderstanding me.

No, I got my CE's for US$2,040-ish staggered 17x8.5 & 17x9.5 for my s14
That was sometime in 2007.
My gripe isn't about the cost of wheels so much as the high price hike within 5 years.

Not like there's no middle ground between knockoffs & ritzy 3k wheels.
I honestly doubt moving from Volks to a more 'modest' set of Advans is going to jeopardize my life or throw my SOW lap times by anything meaningful.
It's not a drastic 'all or nothing' situation!

[rps13drift]

I personaly think what varrstoen is doing with their wheels is honestly pure genius. They took one of the most saught after iconic wheel in the import car scene and made it so not only people on a budget could afford the wheels but also offer the wheels in numerous offsets and also any color you could think of from hot pink to polished chrome with out special orders or a lengthy wait from mackin. I also think the concave on the varrstoens are more aggressive than volks. It is as if they took the te37 and modified it to cater to the RWD car market. Another PRO for varrstoen is their customer support is top notch and they also will produce any color scheme the customer wants and they also use customer input for sizes and offets when making them. If Volk where to offer a lower version of the te37 that is casted and more affordable I think the market would truely jump on them. Not every one seriously tracks their cars or truely wants/needs a forged monoblock wheel that enjoys the wheels classic look.
I know Im going to get hated on but I actualy got rid of my 19 volk Sf challenges for these on my Z33 and I dont regret it. It was after I tried to get 2 replacement SF's for my Z and got quoted $900 a piece and a minimum 3 month wait that made me personaly pulll the trigger. So I sold my volks and with the money made from my volks I was able to get the varrstoens/tires and coilovers :) I am now very happy with how my car handle and looks.
So with all that being said I personaly think varrtoen is an awesome company with alot of potential to one day make great wheel designs to call their own. I just cant hate on a company that is willing to do anything a customer wants to make them happy

[rps13drift]

And as for Varrstoens wheel quality I swear to god I railed a gigantic pot hole on route 80 at 70+MPH and had an instant tire blow out and also it blew the seals on my shock but my varrstoen was fine and even balanced perfect afterwards. I got all of the proof if wanted. And I dont work or have any affiliation with varrstoen.

19x10.5 + 0 255/35/19 blow out
http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd107/rps13drift/IMG00100-20100621-0638.jpg

[raz0rbladez909]

I can respect that mackin is playing hardball, and with good reason, it is one of Volks most popular wheels of all time. As is always brought up with knockoffs is that usually people that purchase them would never pay the full price for the real deal anyways. I'm not a fan of knockoffs honestly, but I can respect that someone had the smarts to come up the idea of making a wheel to the customers liking, versus bending them over backwards. Like someone was saying earlier, the price's of Volks/rays continue to increase each year, and it is rather upsetting because I will soon be in the market for some te37v's. But looking at cast versus cast wheels I cannot see how rays justifies the cost for some of their Gramlights line of wheels, how come 5zigen, Enkei, buddy club and others can charge a decent price for their wheels which are very good quality, yet Rays continues to overprice many of their items.

[articdragon192]

ronmcdon has a point. The price increase lately is insane. The CEs I currently have on mycar, my friend bought new for 2400 2 years ago. Nowadays, that same set is 3200ish. That's an insane price increase. For the price, I can save a little more and get some BBS LMs.
However, the price increase won't deter me and lead me to buying fakes. I'll just buy a more affordable quality wheel (Enkei, Work, Advan ::although still a bit pricey for a cast wheel::) or buy some Rays used, which is what I ended up doing.

[Om1kron]

I believe the price went up due to an aluminum shortage back in 2007, or some kind of other metal shortages, people were also having problems getting raw materials for manufacturing because the military had top priority on getting their hands on the materials before any fabrication companies could, they also raised the price of the raw materials hence the price increase.

You should be able to confirm this with anyone who does metal fabrication or wheel manufacturing. Not sure how much that still affects them .

[Bubbles]

Is my life worth a pair of rotas, bride copies, and stretched tires.


How many people have died from rotas?

[FRpilot]

I believe the price went up due to an aluminum shortage back in 2007, or some kind of other metal shortages, people were also having problems getting raw materials for manufacturing because the military had top priority on getting their hands on the materials before any fabrication companies could, they also raised the price of the raw materials hence the price increase.


i remember getting my te37 when the price was about 2400 for a full set, 600/per wheel. now its closer to 700+/per wheel and about 2800-3200

so they had the price hike, but never dropped the prices back? i heard scrap metal recycling was hot right before the economy tanked, and when it did tank, there was so much surplus scrap metal at recycling yards according to a news report i saw.

[besTint]

Mackin knows how to keep the market in line. Much props to Eddie and Steve.

[superbike81]

If you think I'm ranting about the price alone, you're misunderstanding me.

No, I got my CE's for US$2,040-ish staggered 17x8.5 & 17x9.5 for my s14
That was sometime in 2007.
My gripe isn't about the cost of wheels so much as the high price hike within 5 years.

Not like there's no middle ground between knockoffs & ritzy 3k wheels.
I honestly doubt moving from Volks to a more 'modest' set of Advans is going to jeopardize my life or throw my SOW lap times by anything meaningful.
It's not a drastic 'all or nothing' situation!


Ummmm, you guys are missing the point, this has nothing to do with metal prices or anything like that. You have to look at the global economy. Rays engineering isn't actually charging much more for their wheels now compared to 2007. The difference is, a huge change in the exchange rate between the dollar and yen. Here's an example:

19" TE37's have an MSRP of about 90,000yen, so obviously 4 wheels is 360,000yen. In mid 2007, the exchange rate was around 125yen to 1 dollar. This month, it's been averaging about 82yen for one dollar. So, in 2007, 19" TE37's would have ran $2880 retail price. Price now would be $4390.

Does this suck? Hell yeah it sucks, especially for those of us who get paid in American dollars, but live in Japan. But it's not like Ray's Engineering is trying to fuck over people, they have barely raised their prices at all, the shitty ass US dollar is what is fucking you, not the company.

[atom]

17" TE37's are 76,000 yen MSRP now when they used to be about 65,000 MSRP if I remember right. So they have raised their prices quite a bit. Japan's economy is in the shit as well so it not like they're doing it out of greed though.

Bad global economy + bad exchange rate + niche product = $$$$$$.

[superbike81]

17" TE37's are 76,000 yen MSRP now when they used to be about 65,000 MSRP if I remember right. So they have raised their prices a bit. Japan's economy is in the shit as well so it not like they're doing it out of greed though.

Bad global economy + bad exchange rate + niche product = $$$$$$.

Well, that's just simple inflation, prices go up on things (metals are selling for dirt cheap last I checked, so I don't think that's the reason). MSRP on most cars go up just about every year. But the big reason for the price difference is the exchange rate. The Japanese economy is shitty right now too, you are right, but America is tanking even worse than Japan. Which is why you now pay $1000 more for the same wheels only a few years apart.

People ask why do we pay more for Volks compared to Enkei and Gram Lights and everything, it's just name brand, exclusivity, etc. Why do people pay $130k for a 911 Turbo when they could get a GT-R for $75k? Enkei RPF1's will perform just as well on the track as TE37's for 1/3 of the price, but some people will still buy TE37's because of the "ballerness"

I bought brand new RE30's about a year ago for my Civic, now I'm rocking Varrstoens on my GT-R, seems backwards right? Well, I didn't feel like spending $4500 on 19" TE37's, so I got the knockoffs for less than 1/4 of the price. I don't fake like they are Volks though either. Had I never found out about the Varrstoen knockoffs, I probably would have just got RPF1's or something, but I wanted the look of the 19" TE's.

I like the Mackin is doing this, at least someone is doing something.

[upsdude]

if there is a big enough market for replicas then they'll never go away. you can preach how its better to buy brand name tiil your blue in the face, but you're just stressing youself out for nothing.

[Matej]

Wonder how many dealers will choose to get dropped by Mackin so they can keep stocking replicas, since I am guessing the Varrstoen wheels sell much faster than authentic TE37. Thus only making 'real' wheels harder to obtain. Stopping a problem at the supply end usually does not work well. They would be better off trying to figure out a way to stop it on the demand side. As long as there is a demand for something, there will always be a supply for it.


Dealing Varrstoen wheels on the corner.
http://www.geekologie.com/2008/03/25/google-crack-2.jpg

[beb]

Geez guys, have you not realized that EVERYTHING from Japan has gone up in recent times? The Dollar to Yen f'ing sucks. Materials cost more. Fuel to transport costs more.

Mackin doesnt sit around twiddling their thumbs and thinking up ways to raise the price for no damn reason. On the contrary, they spend majority of their time trying to find ways to market and keep these wheels as affordable as possible. None of you know what goes on behind the curtains... you dont see the hard work people put into developing things like the 57D, Genesis or Superlap - all of which were created to save the consumer money! You dont see how people are cutting down their profit to try and keep the price from going even higher. Rays Engineering and Mackin are not dumb, they know that raising prices makes it harder to sell these wheels!!

Its just so disappointing to see some of the stuff said in this forum.

Those who want to defend and rock replicas, go right ahead. But DONT say there is nothing different between an authentic Volk wheel and a replica. There are years spent on designing and developing quality wheels, yet hours of tracing for replica companies - there is a difference?? What about structural integrity? A wheel isnt something like a wallet, where even the fake ones still serve the same purpose just as well as a real one.

Anywho - Varrstoen was actually selling VOLK and TE37 stickers....as well as calling their TE37 replica a Model: TE37... And YES, there are trademarks in place.

[Om1kron]

Christina you're barking to the wrong horse here on zilvia. You're one of the few people here that invest money into your car rather than "hey let me throw this shit on my car and some fatlace stickers and see if speed hunters will shoot it, they love shitty looking cars slammed on rotas with camber"

Nobody cares that someone designed these wheels, had them made by a prestigious company, best selling wheels of like ALL TIME, and then someone coach bags em sells them to the kids who are broke to turn a profit because they're trying to take advantage of non us trademarks and copyrights and jumping through as many legal loopholes as they can to get away with it.

Tees themselves can't even point out a damn fake bride seat because people have gotten so good at making them (or their old factory whom split from them and tried to fuck em.)

As far as your response goes bubbles, you can make it a point to get on a soapbox and argue back at someone doing whats right. It just lets me know where you stand as a person and a consumer.

I didn't say anyones life was taken from any of the parts, I said I don't trust MY LIFE to fake shit.

[beb]

Hey Wayne - None of my post was directed at you btw. ;)

In regards to your cap inserts, AFAIK - I dont believe they sell it separately... You know, company policy - because of the people out there who may use them to pass fake wheels as real.... you know? Sorry =(

[Matej]

TE37's were 'played out' before Varrstoens even existed.


:hide:

[Om1kron]

Hey Wayne - None of my post was directed at you btw. ;)

In regards to your cap inserts, AFAIK - I dont believe they sell it separately... You know, company policy - because of the people out there who may use them to pass fake wheels as real.... you know? Sorry =(

Yeah I've been trying to get them from Mackin Directly but because of all the poseurs I'm having a hard time, plus I really don't want to spend 140 bucks again on center caps just for stickers especially since the original stickers are now ruined.

[tricky_ab]

TE37's were 'played out' before Varrstoens even existed.


:hide:


Pfft...Never...Volks are timeless...

Geez guys, have you not realized that EVERYTHING from Japan has gone up in recent times? The Dollar to Yen f'ing sucks. Materials cost more. Fuel to transport costs more.

Mackin doesnt sit around twiddling their thumbs and thinking up ways to raise the price for no damn reason. On the contrary, they spend majority of their time trying to find ways to market and keep these wheels as affordable as possible. None of you know what goes on behind the curtains... you dont see the hard work people put into developing things like the 57D, Genesis or Superlap - all of which were created to save the consumer money! You dont see how people are cutting down their profit to try and keep the price from going even higher. Rays Engineering and Mackin are not dumb, they know that raising prices makes it harder to sell these wheels!!

Its just so disappointing to see some of the stuff said in this forum.

Those who want to defend and rock replicas, go right ahead. But DONT say there is nothing different between an authentic Volk wheel and a replica. There are years spent on designing and developing quality wheels, yet hours of tracing for replica companies - there is a difference?? What about structural integrity? A wheel isnt something like a wallet, where even the fake ones still serve the same purpose just as well as a real one.

Anywho - Varrstoen was actually selling VOLK and TE37 stickers....as well as calling their TE37 replica a Model: TE37... And YES, there are trademarks in place.

Quoted for truth...Well said my man!

[ManoNegra]

TE37's were 'played out' before Varrstoens even existed.

:hide:

And so is the type x bandwagon you're on. What's your point? :wiggle:

Anyhow, my track car will have forged wheels one day
don't need that quality on my daily, less priced Enkeis or Works will do
would never rock fake wheels just for 'a look'
but that's just me

material cost isn't that high right now
but I now Alcoa invented the forging process
maybe Rays pays a licensing fee to Alcoa appart from high coast of
manufacturing already present in the process?
and on top of that there's the shitty exchange

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Armx02_R7Y0

[ronmcdon]

Idk if I buy the hypothesis that exchange rate is the main culprit here.
(Japanese yen to US dollar).

OK, no doubt it plays some part, but does it account for a 50% price hike?
Can you honestly say, EVERY part made in Japan has a 50% price hike?
Last I checked, that clearly wasn't the case.
Don't see Tomei, HKS, etc parts go up 50%, and I pay a lot of attention to those prices.
Have cars made in Japan gone up 50% in price? No way.

To me, the exchange rate arguement falls short of being even remotely plausible.
Maybe, a 10% increase I'll give you that.

Also, please explain why forged wheels will make any practical difference for a 'track car'?
Maybe some of us truly are proffesional race car drivers, I'd i'd be genuinely intrigued to get some contructive feedback.
For the rest of us, even those who do track days regularly, I have my doubts it's going to make any difference at all.

I do track days, and I will readily admit I got my ce's and te's for looks alone.
As mentioned by another poster, they are "timeless"
It's a very good quality product and it looks cool, but I doubt it offers much more utility than a quality cast wheel.
at least not enough to justify some approx $1,500 premium, but's that's just my opinion.

[beb]

Ron - My argument was not between cast vs forged. We're talking replicas here. You are opening a whole other door lol.

AFA Cast VS Forged, you are right - there is not big diff from someone using a more affordable cast wheel like Gramlights or Advan to using a 1pc Forged - Emphasizing on 'quality' as you said. ;) For a track day every once in a while, its fine... The 1pc forged does come in handy when you want to reduce as much rotational mass as possible while maintaining strength - something most of us dont necessarily need - but its nice to have if you can afford it.

Mano - The exchange rate is pretty shitty right now. Material costs ARE high. This isnt HKS or some other companies you have mentioned that use significantly lower amounts of raw metals for the production of parts than wheels. Also, the process is completely different! Rays uses the most advanced forging process available and uh.. the machines are mooooooooooney. Theres still ALOT that none of us understand - unless any of you have been to the Japan and US facilities and seen first-hand everything that goes on, its very unfair to come to the conclusions alot of you have.

Honestly, I dont know everything.... But from what I do know, every effort is always made to make the products still accessible to most end users. Trust me, there is alot more going on than any of you could probably imagine... and to think that these price raises are without valid reasons is pretty insulting.