BlackTrax tweaked dyno sheet??!!!?

[510-SR20DET]

First of all, im fully aware that this is regional issue but i am posting it here to let people know that sometime the dyno sheet in your hand could be NOT realistic nor might not be yours.
Ok so i had my car tuned at Blacktrax here in norcal, milpitas, Ca. According to the dyno sheet, my car hit 402 rwhp and 371 tq.
Today, i had my car tuned again by Frank at garage Boso, he's also know as Racetune, great guy. He's the tuner for Falken drift team. He's also Certified and licensed by Apexi. Im pretty sure alot people know him and i believe he's trust worthy.
After some inspection of the old map, Frank told me the map in the ECU is barely touched compare to stock base map which came with fresh PFC from Apexi. I asked Frank, but the car hit 402 how can that be? He said Blacktrax could tweak the number by multiply by some coefficient and according to his laptop it's nowhere near 400.
Back to Blacktrax, they told me PFC is a piece of shit and recommended me to throw it away and get AEM. They also said PFC come with blank ECU which they have to work from scratch also which will cost me 6 hours of tuning, the total is $1110.00 which they barely even touched.
So now the dyno sheet on my hand is a total lie. so people out there, keep your eyes open.
I would appreciate any input from you guys. Should i execute this and sue BlackTrax or it is something as a car modifier have to take as a lesson?


http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll198/g123ddy/DSC00242.jpg

[fueled by hate]

I would stay away from black trax, heard only bad stories about them from friends.

[boost]

so what kinda power did your car make with frank? and what dyno is he using vs blacktrax.

[onlydrinkkoolaid]

thats pretty scary because all the ricers running around thinking they have 1000hp at 10psi

[!Zar!]

Did you even contact Blacktrax? What's your engine setup, and what made you decide to get it retuned?

[BlackTrax]

Tri this post caught me by surprise. Especially with all the work we did for you from the top end upgrade, to the turbo setup and the tuning.

We've known Frank for many years. He also owns a Dynapack and we've compared readings when he was up in NorCal with Racetune. I encourage you to have him read this post and chime in if he pleases, but he and I both know we're beating a dead horse.

Dynapack education:
TCF = Total Correction Factor
Now look at your dyno sheet you posted. TCF=1.00. To actually "tweak" the reading you would need to increase the TCF to a value greater than 1.00. Ex) 1.15 = +15% increase.

The absorption pods are calibrated by Dynapack before sale and are password protected. BlackTrax does not have a password to access this nor would we know or want to change it. As I've mentioned hundreds of times before, test performed with the same vehicle on the same day among different NorCal bay area dynos resulted with our dyno at +0/-5%. This means, ours doesnt' ready higher, if fact it can read up to -5% lower. For those who understand dyno's are used soley as tuning tools you'll know where I'm coming from when I say that there is no argument since there is no apples to apples comparison here. Time, place, temp, humidity, mechanical condition, each tuners tuning style etc. play factors and adds variables.

FREE OF CHARGE, come down and we'll do a baseline run for you. You made 402hp 371tq at 19.9psi peak tapering off to 17.6psi toward redline. I have your a/f plots as well saved on our hard drive. So we'll do a couple pulls with your current map and a couple pulls the map I still have saved on my laptop and see what information we get out of this. If not, good luck in your endeavors.

[doublestitch180]

thats pretty scary because all the ricers running around thinking they have 1000hp at 10psi

Yea Seriously. lol

[K_style]

Some shops would like to make customer happy with their HP #, so they increase with TCF..
that is quote I got from Frank when I got tuned a couple month ago..

Frank is the man u need to see for tune !!

my car makes 250whp but it feels much stronger than what the # is...
Frank gives you RAW hp # ... and honest all the way...

[doublestitch180]

Yea Frank's cool. Really takes pride in what he does. Your lucky to even have him work on your car because he's a pretty busy guy.

BTW, What setup do you have on your SR? and why did you have car re-tuned? Was there a driveablilty issue with the first tune?

[!Zar!]

Blacktrax and Racetune / Boso Garage have been around for ages; both nice shops, so I'll ask again...
Did you even contact Blacktrax? What's your engine setup, and what made you decide to get it retuned?

Seems that instead of contacting Aki (I believe that's the owners name), you start a thread, and drag Frank into it?

Starting this tread isn't helping anybody.

[doublestitch180]

As I've mentioned hundreds of times before, test performed with the same vehicle on the same day among different NorCal bay area dynos resulted with our dyno at +0/-5%. This means, ours doesnt' ready higher, if fact it can read up to -5% lower. For those who understand dyno's are used soley as tuning tools you'll know where I'm coming from when I say that there is no argument since there is no apples to apples comparison here. Time, place, temp, humidity, mechanical condition, each tuners tuning style etc. play factors and adds variables.

I believe this is true. It's not like their pump'in out big-mac's here. Tuning is a art form.

[OneSicSilvia]

It's not un common to see this happen. I've seen this happen alot at dyno shops that just wanna get people out the door. It's not hard to manipulate the computer to put out false numbers.

[slider2828]

I think the owneris Jei right? I think aki works there? DUn remember... But I agree with !Zar! you should not have posted stuff like this, it won't help your situation....

[spindrift187]

i'm all for putting shitty shops on blast...but dude i have to tell you. the shop in question responded with the quickness and offered a viable/FREE solution. i feel it was very childish of you to start this thread and drag frank/boso into this and start a shit storm when all you had to do was confront or call blacktrax. if they started dodging you or not returning your calls...THEN you start a thread against them. but either way you should NEVER have mentioned the new tuner or his shop by name. it's immature and uncalled for and makes it look as if he was slandering a fellow shop.

[MADE]

If they are both using a dynapack it should be roughly the same. What were the results after the retune? Also Blaxtrax did your shop tell the OP this.

" PFC is a piece of shit and recommended me to throw it away and get AEM. They also said PFC come with blank ECU which they have to work from scratch."

Each tuner is going to different, I wanted to get my car re-tuned cause I think it could be better but Im not going to blame the tuner. IMO for the money these non-certified powel excel shops are charging you could go to a shop who has the exprience and not just learned as they went along. Same as non ASE mechs charging the same if not more the ASE mechs.

Not saying one is better than the other.

[sokodu]

Interesting on how the topic starter who was ever so curious about his situation hasn't even checked back on his own thread to chime into what people have said.

Blatant attempt at bashing a shop. Grow up!

[510-SR20DET]

Interesting on how the topic starter who was ever so curious about his situation hasn't even checked back on his own thread to chime into what people have said.

Blatant attempt at bashing a shop. Grow up!

I've been checking you ass hole. believe me or not, i have more important things to take care. Im waiting on the time is right then ill deal with this, since the car is still in the shop.
btw, the car make 300 on 91 cotane at 9 PSI again thats 9 psi. Im on the period breaking in, had to rebuild/redone the whole shit after got the car back from black trax, and i only put 10 miles on it since then. By the way the graph above is at 19psi on 100 octane.
I started this thread asking for consultation for if i should leave it or put my foot down. For those who calling me childish/grow up, think again. Only those who grown up think twice before he starts the fire.

[doublestitch180]

Yea sorry to hear that you had to redo the whole thing. I've heard many stories like that before. (I have one of my own lol.) Good luck with that.

[redpotatoes]

Your sheet is represented by flywheel power, get the axle power hp display.

[ineedone]

I've been checking you ass hole. believe me or not, i have more important things to take care. Im waiting on the time is right then ill deal with this, since the car is still in the shop.
btw, the car make 300 on 91 cotane at 9 PSI again thats 9 psi. Im on the period breaking in, had to rebuild/redone the whole shit after got the car back from black trax, and i only put 10 miles on it since then. By the way the graph above is at 19psi on 100 octane.
I started this thread asking for consultation for if i should leave it or put my foot down. For those who calling me childish/grow up, think again. Only those who grown up think twice before he starts the fire.

I was trying to read this, but your incredible grasp of the English language, and well, your truly brilliant use of grammar, is just way above anything I would be able to understand.

[510-SR20DET]

I dont even bother to check back nor reply because of posts like redpotatoes and ineedone is just a waste of time.

[cdlong]

so are all of yours so far. you were asked valid questions that you ignored and still haven't fully answered. are you interested in getting answers or just bad mouthing the shop? do you intend to respond to the shop that you bad mouthed that responded to you complaints? quite quickly i might add...

[ineedone]

I will not bother to check back or reply because of posts by redpotatoes and ineedone. It would just be a waste of my time.

Ummm.... you did just reply:Owned:

Anyway, seems like someone got their panties in a twist when they did not make super jdm tyte yo HP fo dooooorriiiffftoooo!

I still do not understand what you are trying to say. So I fixed it for you:wavey:

[thxjoyce]

so are all of yours so far. you were asked valid questions that you ignored and still haven't fully answered. are you interested in getting answers or just bad mouthing the shop? do you intend to respond to the shop that you bad mouthed that responded to you complaints? quite quickly i might add...


Exactly. First, its measuring flywheel power. 402hp sounds high but we still do not know the set-up you have even though people have asked. Its possible to get 402hp on a dynapack. Another question is how many runs did Blacktrax do for you? Ususally it would be 3 runs and they take the best run.

I myself, have an evo9, and I have had it tuned at a shop and they had a dynapack. My numbers came out very impressive but its at the flywheel. Then I had it tuned at the best shop around for evo's a year later, and they use a mustang dyno that is a "rolling" dyno and that measures wheel hp. The numbers dropped significantly, but I didn;t go around bashing the shop for incorrect info. I knew that there is a huge difference (depending on the car company) between flywheel hp and wheel hp. A great example is mazda and the rx8 when it first came out. Mazda claimed 265hp but in reality it was near 185hp at the wheel. Mazda then had to re-adjust the hp numbers. It all depends on the set-up, time of day, temperature, all that.

So, Black Trax offered to fix the issue and help in any way they can, which is what they should do in this case, and help. I guess its too late for that due to your responses so you can take it or leave it. IMO, take the offer from them. :fruit:

[GenPac]

Drivetrain losses can be a bitch if you don't know what you're looking at. Just because you HAVE a dyno sheet, doesn't make you able to READ a dyno sheet.

[!Zar!]

Sounds like a cast of a customer that will never be, 'happy'.

[ineedone]

Sounds like a cast of a customer that will never be, 'happy'.

http://www.chemistryland.com/CHM107/Introduction/BehindScene/HappyMeal.jpg

I think shops need to start giving these out... It would make all the difference.:wiggle:

[510-SR20DET]

First of all, dynapack is not flywheel horse power, Its axle power.
Second of all, i called BlackTrax once when I found out my motor just blew by itself and i didnt drive it. this is right after i got it back from BlackTrax. They said they dont know and told me to bring the car over so they can take the head off to take a look. Who will pay for the labor work? fuck me. I found out from Performance Option that the engine was flushed with gas, carbon built up causing my ring to seize up which i end up with very low compression also the HG job was bad which cause leaks 19.9 dropped down to 17.7 as BlackTrax mentioned which they don't know shit why it happened.
To tell you all the truth, i don't know all this until i brought it to Performance Options where the car is it right now completing the car.
I found out bad head gasket job, i found out my timing chain went bad which cause rattle in my valve cover which wasn't there before. I thought the rattling was because of the big cams i have. But all these i let go it go and took it as a lesson for bringing it it a bad shop, until i found out about the tune FROM FRANK, which is the reason why i mentioned about Frank, not dragging him in, if he didn't say anything i would not know. How many of us actually pull out the ECU and find out what going on in there? I found out that the tune is not as it looks according to Frank's laptop and he save a copy of it and will give it to me.
Let me tell you about the tune, i paid for the whole complete tune but it was tuned for WOT only, not cold start, not partial throttle. The car drive like shit in partial throttle (do i have to WOT all day?). I called them back and they said "yeah you have to pay to street tune it again" which will cost another 3 hours. I cant turn/fire the engine without give it some gas not to mention i have to crank it few time to have it fired up. The car made alot of smoke. What kind of tune that makes your spark plug BLACK? Again, I didn't know all this until now. With Frank tune the psark plug came out white clean.
Not to mention i realized that my stock S14 Sr ECU and Apexi turbo timer is gone but its okay cause i don't need it so i don't even bother.

For those who wondering what my setup is:
S14 Sr20det
PFC D-jetro.
750cc Injectors
HKS 264/272 cams
BC valve spring and Ti retainers
Apexi 1.1 HG
Stock IM with Q45 TB
Denso Supra TT fuel pump
Peakboost top mount
Stock bottom end with APR rod bolts and head bolts and main bolts.
Greddy oil pan
Greddy RAS

Let me ask you a question, If you spent more than $6000, what do you expect when you get the car back? In this case, i got dissatisfaction.

For those who is not from the bay area, don't speak until you learned about this history of the shop. Im not the only one got screwed. Again I didn't know about BlackTrax and i was in desperate to get my car run. I trusted them. I handed the car to them and tell them to call me when its done but damn it was a big mistake.

here are some pictures i snap this morning. you can see the car is getting alignment done.
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll198/g123ddy/IMG_0019.jpg

http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll198/g123ddy/IMG_0020.jpg

Oh yeah, BlackTrax mentioned about competing with Frank? Please, what a joke.
I will talk to them again when my car is done and see what they will say. as for the part letting them dyno my car, please hell no.

[VROOOM]

First of all, dynapack is not flywheel horse power, Its axle power.


the dyno sheet says Flywheel Power right on it.

[ineedone]

First of all, dynapack is not flywheel horse power, Its axle power.
Second of all, i called BlackTrax once when I found out my motor just blew by itself and i didnt drive it. this is right after i got it back from BlackTrax. They said they dont know and told me to bring the car over so they can take the head off to take a look. Who will pay for the labor work? fuck me. I found out from Performance Option that the engine was flushed with gas, carbon built up causing my ring to seize up which i end up with very low compression also the HG job was bad which cause leaks 19.9 dropped down to 17.7 as BlackTrax mentioned which they don't know shit why it happened.
To tell you all the truth, i don't know all this until i brought it to Performance Options where the car is it right now completing the car.
I found out bad head gasket job, i found out my timing chain went bad which cause rattle in my valve cover which wasn't there before. I thought the rattling was because of the big cams i have. But all these i let go it go and took it as a lesson for bringing it it a bad shop, until i found out about the tune FROM FRANK, which is the reason why i mentioned about Frank, not dragging him in, if he didn't say anything i would not know. How many of us actually pull out the ECU and find out what going on in there? I found out that the tune is not as it looks according to Frank's laptop and he save a copy of it and will give it to me.
Let me tell you about the tune, i paid for the whole complete tune but it was tuned for WOT only, not cold start, not partial throttle. The car drive like shit in partial throttle (do i have to WOT all day?). I called them back and they said "yeah you have to pay to street tune it again" which will cost another 3 hours. I cant turn/fire the engine without give it some gas not to mention i have to crank it few time to have it fired up. The car made alot of smoke. What kind of tune that makes your spark plug BLACK? Again, I didn't know all this until now. With Frank tune the psark plug came out white clean.
Not to mention i realized that my stock S14 Sr ECU and Apexi turbo timer is gone but its okay cause i don't need it so i don't even bother.

For those who wondering what my setup is:
S14 Sr20det
PFC D-jetro.
750cc Injectors
HKS 264/272 cams
BC valve spring and Ti retainers
Apexi 1.1 HG
Stock IM with Q45 TB
Denso Supra TT fuel pump
Peakboost top mount
Stock bottom end with APR rod bolts and head bolts and main bolts.
Greddy oil pan
Greddy RAS

Let me ask you a question, If you spent more than $6000, what do you expect when you get the car back? In this case, i got dissatisfaction.

For those who is not from the bay area, don't speak until you learned about this history of the shop. Im not the only one got screwed. Again I didn't know about BlackTrax and i was in desperate to get my car run. I trusted them. I handed the car to them and tell them to call me when its done but damn it was a big mistake.

here are some pictures i snap this morning. you can see the car is getting alignment done.
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll198/g123ddy/IMG_0019.jpg

http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll198/g123ddy/IMG_0020.jpg

Oh yeah, BlackTrax mentioned about competing with Frank? Please, what a joke.
I will talk to them again when my car is done and see what they will say. as for the part letting them dyno my car, please hell no.


I do not think I saw one complete sentence. That took me 3 hrs to read:bigok:

[510-SR20DET]

the dyno sheet says Flywheel Power right on it.

I don't know why it said flywheel power on it. Isn't flywheel power is when someone tune the engine in a special room which has engine alone by itself? When they dyno the car, it was bolt on the rear wheels w/o the rims. I don't understand it since drive train, axles and hubs were all in account except wheels.

ineedone - i don't see one sentence from you that helps me. This thread don't need you. You spent 3 hours to read my post, don't you have a life? Dont you have better things to do? Maybe instead of spending 3 hours trying to read my post, how about just get the fuck off. IGNORE MODE [ON]

[ineedone]

ineedone - i don't see one sentence from you that helps me. This thread don't need you. You spent 3 hours to read my post, don't you have a life? Dont you have better things to do? Maybe instead of spending 3 hours trying to read my post, how about just get the fuck off.

Nope, my life revolves around making sure stupid people learn grammar. It is a personal goal of mine to help out others, especially ones with special needs. You qualify for free help from myself:wavey:. Helping the community is the best thing one can do in my opinion. You should feel privileged;). I made sure to highlight all the mistakes you made, try and fix them and we will reevaluate from there!

IGNORE MODE [ON]

What are you? Robocop?

[K_style]

what kind of turbo is that ? I think your list is missing it..

[GabeS14]

Nope, my life revolves around making sure stupid people learn grammar. It is a personal goal of mine to help out others, especially ones with special needs. You qualify for free help from myself:wavey:. Helping the community is the best thing one can do in my opinion. You should feel privileged;). I made sure to highlight all the mistakes you made, try and fix them and we will reevaluate from there
What are you? Robocop?

Wow, you really need a girlfriend!
Or boyfriend. Its up to you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Team DET]

intake manifold looks good, how much that run you

[ineedone]

Wow, you really need a girlfriend!
Or boyfriend. Its up to you.

It is my girl's fault, she is the one that likes expensive things. So, I had to go to law school to afford her. Now, I sit around and do nothing because money is tight (school is hella expensive).:Owned:

In reality, I only have a couple more weeks of freedom before school starts back up so I need to get all my E-thuggin in now :hahano:. The girl has a real job, so I am left home alone, with no supervision. It is like when you skipped school and watched "The Price is Right" when you were 10. It is awesome.

[slider2828]

Its a forum not an english class. Trust me this is not the first time I heard about this and also I have seen some shoddy work come out of this shop first hand. Some people rant and rave, personally I am not surprised what happened. /close thread cause its turning into a ranting thread.....

[vvtisupra]

If it makes any difference . PFCs do come with a base map but who in the right mind would use one? With all the money you spend on big turbo's big power why would you start off with a base map. As far as AEM vs PFC, aem's got a lot more options. I think PFC is good for street tuner cars where as the aem steps into the tuner/race car relm.

Not many people rock the aem ems in the sr20 community mainly because people don't want to spring for it and find a tuner.

As far as dropping 1g + for tuning that sounds about right for a tune from scratch.

I hate when tuners choose a map from a previously tuned cars and configure to work for your car. Sure its cheaper and cuts down on time, but in the process your car can take unneccessary wear.

With that said I got my car tuned via HPS service that enlist AEM factory trained tuners. I like my tuners approach. Not trying to hurt the motor and aim for peak power, but to create a usable powerband that can safely be ran on 91 octane. Also AEM works wonders with VTC on the S14 motors. My friend an I nearly have the same set up except he has the VTC running. After being tuned on the ems the VTC increased torque, and made up for the already little spool time on a gt2871R.

Also, if you're looking for PFC tuners Koji over at driftspeed was one of the first premier tuners for pfc. I rmeember about a year ago they had an insane deal on tuning pfc for SR's. Something like 300 dollars for a full tune. My coworker had it tuned by someone and he wasn't happy with driveability, gas and power. After he took it to koji it made almost a 100 hp gain and got back driveability and better gas mileage.

Just a few more options out there.

[GabeS14]

I believe the guy has a valid argument,
And making fun of someones grammar is retarded, especially if you are a broke ass recent grad wanna be lawyer,
You ignorance is causing you to forget that probably
%40 of zilvians are Asian or from Spanish speaking countries, not all of them had American schooling and even if they did that doesn't make English their strong point.

I had a shop do similar to me a couple years back!
And it's obvios by the dyno sheet saying flywheel hp and the dyno having been a hub mounted dyno that something is off, I also wouldn't take my car back to a shop that showed a lack of care for my vehicle.
No matter what.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GabeS14]

On that note, I would recommend you starting a review thread for them,
Just post your experience there and let it be. Trying to sue won't get you anywhere,
I am pretty sure the shop didn't Intentionally do a bad job but sometimes after doing the same job on many cars shops tend to cut corners and attention to detail isn't a priority when that happens.
I don't know blacktrax so I am not picking sides.
But charging someone to re do a job that was initially done poorly is not a cool thing. I've been through that before.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ineedone]

I believe the guy has a valid argument,
And making fun of someones grammar is retarded, especially if you are a broke ass recent grad wanna be lawyer,
You ignorance is causing you to forget that probably
%40 of zilvians are Asian or from Spanish speaking countries, not all of them had American schooling and even if they did that doesn't make English their strong point.

Well obviously I do not make fun of everyone. This one was special though. See in post #6 the shop this guy was trashing chimed in. Then the OP goes ballistic on everyone that had responded earlier. To me that was clue #1 that something smart ass must be said. Clue #2 the OP signature is making fun of someone else's grammar. My "ignorance?" where does that come from?

Oh, and by the way the "%" sign goes after the number, not before (like so 40%).

Who said I was broke? I said money was tight. Wanna be lawyer? I made it through the first year just fine, top 15% (<--- correct usage of %). I think my prospects at becoming a lawyer are pretty solid (I got the hook up holler if ya hear me).

Either way, I agree with you that this needed to be in the review forum, not the Chat forum. It is a feeding ground here:yum:.

And I hope you have the new Iphone and I hope you lose signal ALL the time!!! :axe:

[90white240]

Word^^^^^^

[enigmadsm]

sorry to hear about your experience....oh and for all the flywheel hp comments

ALL DYNOPACKS read power at the hub (wheel taken off, hub bolted to machine) It is just as accurate as a dynojet, doesn't inflate the numbers anymore at all...It is compensated for that.

BUT their SHEETS ALWAYS SAY FLYWHEEL hp....that doesn't mean that blacktrax ripped this dudes engine out of the car and threw it on a bench dyno. thats just how the sheet reads it....time to move on from that little tidbit people, still doesn't help the fact he may/may not have been screwed over

[cdlong]

And making fun of someones grammar is retarded,

Getting people to take you seriously is a lot easier if you act like you should be taken seriously. I’m more willing to offer my time to help if someone they take the time to spell properly and proofread; and someone with a basic understanding of grammar and sentence structure is more likely to comprehend what I’m saying.

Given this thread on its own, I would side with BlackTrax. Incomprehensible moron vs. a responsive shop owner, hmmm...

[d*star180]

Blah blah blah numbers.

I have one serious question. Did you seriously tell a customer that PowerFC is garbage and that he needs to dump it and get an AEM EMS? If so, thats all this thread needs to hear.

lolololololol

[GabeS14]

Getting people to take you seriously is a lot easier if you act like you should be taken seriously. I’m more willing to offer my time to help if someone they take the time to spell properly and proofread; and someone with a basic understanding of grammar and sentence structure is more likely to comprehend what I’m saying.

Given this thread on its own, I would side with BlackTrax. Incomprehensible moron vs. a responsive shop owner, hmmm...

I agree, but what about your own sentence?ahem :wiggle:

[redpotatoes]

FYI Dynapack can tell you flywheel hp and axle power hp. I got different sheet of runs I made on dynapack, same runs with both flywheel and axle power display sheet.

Sorry for what happen to your setup, I hope you can get the car running properly asap. Good luck !

[GabeS14]

Maybe thew whole confusion was that the dyno at blactrax was setup to show flywheel horsepower and the Op thought they were telling him that was his wheel hp?
and when he went to frank who made it clear that his wheel hp was a lot lower than the previous dyno pull.. thus making the OP sad : (

[mr_eh]

im pretty sure the op is mad that they charged him for tuning and "allegedly" didn't perform much if any tuning at all and is accusing them of inflating his numbers to justify tuning.

[90240sr]

Isn't there a section to rate business. I'm surprised this thread is still alive.

[cdlong]

I agree, but what about your own sentence?ahem :wiggle:

Umm, I'm not perfect? At least I try...

im pretty sure the op is mad that they charged him for tuning and "allegedly" didn't perform much if any tuning at all and is accusing them of inflating his numbers to justify tuning.

That's what I was thinking/hoping. A dyno is a tuning tool that happens to give horsepower numbers, not horsepower measuring tool. The OP never posted new numbers (it blew up, right?) so i'm guessing what Frank said about the previous tune is all we're going on.

[510-SR20DET]

Gabes14 - your comments were the one i was looking for.
I was fully aware that the number is hub power not wheel power nor flywheel power.
I would not be mad if BlackTrax was standing up and said "this is all we can do, my shame knowledge is limited" instead of pounding on their chest and said "im the best" lied and ripped off people wallet.
Why did i bring the car to another shop to have a redone? Because BlackTrax tried to charge me again to see what their own previous job went wrong, tried to charge me extra for their incomplete tune when it was supposedly complete.
Im making this thread to let people know that your dyno sheet can be a lie, and make sure the shop give some care about your car. And for those who live in Bay Area, taking the car to BlackTrax or not, best of luck.
I might not sue them, what goes around comes around. I hope this thread help those new comer like i was back then. I would not bring the car to them if i knew. Now i realized that im the only one,or not, in the Bay Area who fell for the trap.
For those wondering about my number now, it made 300hp, 240tq at 9 psi on 91, it will be full out tuned at 20 psi after i broke in 1000 mile. The TB is from Q45, that shit is a pain in the ass to install. I bet ALOT people thought it's an easy bolt on. It's not.
I will start the review thread on BlackTrax.
For those who said BlackTrax is a responsive shop, ten bucks say they wont reply to this nor have the second post on zilvia.

[GabeS14]

what turbo?
300hp at 9psi is very strong.

The only reason I relate to this is because I had my car rebuilt at a local pretty famous shop who were active D1 competitors, and they didnt pay attention to a few details like internal mechanical timing" and my turbo gasket was sticking out the side of the turbo and piping..lol
when i contacted them and told them the car sounded like a subaru and something was definetly wrong they kept saying my jwt tune was garbage and was causing the issue.and never dug deep to fix the obvious issue.
when i pushed them to look more in deep at the issue they wanted to charge me for tunning time.
..my issues with that shop are over now, they have I am sure learned there lesson and I have also.

but sometimes people deserve the benefit of the doubt and the shops should go over everything free to double check their work in cases like this.

[cdlong]

For those who said BlackTrax is a responsive shop, ten bucks say they wont reply to this nor have the second post on zilvia.

Yeah, that was just me. I'm sure they won't either, they offered you free service to see what the problem is, not pussyfoot around the internet. The ball's in your court.

My thoughts, get Frank to finish it up and save the tune. Take it to blacktrax with Frank's tune and run it on their dyno. Have them load their old tune back on and see what the difference is. Then you have something to work with.

[doublestitch180]

Im making this thread to let people know that your dyno sheet can be a lie, and make sure the shop give some care about your car. And for those who live in Bay Area, taking the car to BlackTrax or not, best of luck.

Yea... Being from the Bay Area, we are limited out here. Really hard to find knowlegeable/trustworthy SR20 shops.

[510-SR20DET]

My thoughts, get Frank to finish it up and save the tune. Take it to blacktrax with Frank's tune and run it on their dyno. Have them load their old tune back on and see what the difference is. Then you have something to work with.

hell naw, i must be a stupid to do that. After i have the tune done with Frank, Ill print out a copy of the tune with Frank plus a print out of BlackTrax tune also a map of base map which comes with PFC and their receipt, then compare all together. Im not stupid to get on their dyno again.

I both know we're beating a dead horse.

Please, what a joke.

[BlackTrax]

We have been in business since 2002 and we're proud of this accomplishment. So when I use the term "beating a dead horse" the business owners who share this industry with me (some for much longer than 8yrs), share the same feeling when they encounter similar situations, sympathy. Most bother not to write back and handle it offline which is the preferred, professional way IMO.

In response to the "flywheel" text on the graph, it is only TEXT. Again, beating a dead horse. Later versions of Dynapack software eliminates the word "flywheel". Speak with Dynapack next time you see them at SEMA or PRI, they will provide you with the same response.

In response to PFC not having a map. Those unfortunately are not our words. PFC's always come with a basemap. To compare it with AEM EMS, EMS is much more scalable and offers a plethora of features that PFC does not and will not. Although this may sound that EMS>PFC, this however doesn't mean that PFC is a "piece" (again not our words). We tune PFC's on a monthly basis ranging from Honda Bseries engines to Toyota 1ZZ/2ZZ's as well as Mazda rotary and Nissan SR and RB's and it's a great system. Last time I checked we're allowed make recommendations, but ultimately the customer is the one that makes the decision on what combo of parts to use. Different levels and types of engine managements match different levels and types of engine modifications.

hell naw, i must be a stupid to do that. After i have the tune done with Frank, Ill print out a copy of the tune with Frank plus a print out of BlackTrax tune also a map of base map which comes with PFC and their receipt, then compare all together. Im not stupid to get on their dyno again.

Tri, unfortunately your offer to provide the above will not be comparable data. The dyno's are not the same and the setup is not the same.

After spending a number of years attempting to share and debating valuable information on numerous web communities, we've frankly run out of breath due to redundancy and lack of time. Our original Zilvia members have come and gone, moved to other projects but we've been around on this board for quite some time. Readers, honestly, it's up to you on what you take from this thread. True, false or simply hearsay? Personally I feel its a waste of time and space. BlackTrax has always stood by their quality of work and share sympathy to those who have troubles. Our industry often find a correlation between first timers to motorsports who've run into a problem and with writing unsightly reviews. We were all first timers at one time, we've all run into troubles. We were all uneducated about the situation at one time. The importance is how you handle yourself and the situation. When any engine goes down, the first thing engine builders do is check the logs and perform the teardown and inspection. The damages inside an engine tell the story. If the cause of the failure is due to improper service, then the shop who performed the service should be liable and should offer to make the necessary repairs at no cost. If this scenario were true with us and you had contacted us to to request for an inspection, we could have offered you the same service. Even if the damage was outside or not related to the work we performed, we'd still feel compassionate about your failure and offer what we could to help dampen the blow. On behalf of BlackTrax and myself, we're deeply regret situation you're dealing. I'm confident Frank will be taking good care of you and your car. Again as I mentioned before, our doors are open.

Best of luck,
From a guy who once was a first timer.
Jei Chang

[510-SR20DET]

There were 2 reasons why i stopped talking to you guys and brought my car to somewhere else.
1. My car didn't run more than 5 miles after the day i got my car back from your shop, then one day it wont start up. I brought the car in for you to check. You guys checked and insisted to tear down the engine "to take a look" who would put the engine back into one piece, who will pay the labor to have my engine back into one piece? You sure didn't mention about free if it was lack of proper service. Will you admit that it was due to lack of proper service once the engine is all torn apart? I don't think so, this game is too old. Also, on that day, you insisted me to tow the car back, didn't give a shit about my car. All you said was "I don't have time, come back another day" That's 30 miles of towing, come back another day? This exactly was from Arki.
2.When i made appointment for a tune from you. You said PFC comes in blank with nothing in it and you have to work from scratch and that is why it would cost me 6 hours of tune. i paid you $1100 right up with no question ask but what did i get out of it? To be exact, Arki was the one who told me PFC is shit and i should switch to AEM, AEM is better. People on Zilvia and drifters in japan would like to hear your reasons to this beside me.
I paid for a full tune. After i got my car back, I called back to ask why my car was running like shit on partial throttle. You told me to bring the car in for another tune and it would cost me another 3 hours :WTF: Obviously, you didn't street tune my car when you should. You just gave me the graph with some number so i can get out of your shop then later on i found that i have to pay more when i should not. The tune you did was shit. why was it shit? My spark plugs was black when it should be clean white. If you are not good with PFC then don't bash on it and should tell the customer about your ability, all the other shops around here refused to tune PFC because they are not good with it, but except you. Another lesson here guys, study/search your stuffs and don't trust shops.
I trusted your shop to the point i didn't even bother to test drove the car when i got it back from your shop nor check in every week while the car was in your shop but I lost trust in your shop and im not the only one around the bay feeling this way, too bad i found this out too late. I want my money back, would you give me my money back? guess not. Im not the one who go around and sue people. Im spreading the words out, your reputation is much more worth than my money.

[240sx123$]

OP, You havent affected their reputation in the least. From an outside perspective, it just looks like you want to play the blame game. Whether or not BlackTrax is being overly compliant based on the fact that this is a public forum, I cannot attest to. But based on the responses theyve made, and the responses youve made, it seems to me youre a little uneducated on how dyno's and tuning work. But even so, BlackTrax was willing to go out of their way to make you a happy customer.

Ive left negative reviews for shops before- rightfully. Never have I received a response from the shop I was reviewing like the one that BlackTrax has left here. Theyre obviously trying to make things right- even if they dont feel theyve done anything wrong. Theyre willing to work with you, and youre just being stubborn.

If you ACTUALLY want to prove something, get your car retuned on another dyno, then bring it back to BlackTrax and have them do three pulls. Load previous tune, and repeat. Thats the only way to get an apples to apples comparison. If youre not willing to do that, then stop shitting all over a shop when you have no basis for your claims. Anyone can talk shit. Can you back it up?

[g00se]

If you dont want to roll by yourself to the shop I volunteer and will go with you to stand witness if you want.

[enkei2k]

For those who said BlackTrax is a responsive shop, ten bucks say they wont reply to this nor have the second post on zilvia.

Good Long speech

Again as I mentioned before, our doors are open.

Best of luck


shall i give you my paypal so that you can send me my $10?

[510-SR20DET]

If BlackTrax wants to fix things right then they should had done it before when i called them and brought the car back there, not when my car is already completed and fixed. They response and make it sound like they would do thing right only when i start this thread about them. "unfortunately this is not our word" Did i have to have a recorder when i talked to them?
Things are already done and im happy with my car with Performance Option and with Frank tuned it. You tell me to take the risk and go back to the starting point just to prove them wrong or right. What will i get out of that? What if something goes wrong with the previous map? Its my car and guess what i do care about it and i cant take the risk. Oh by the way, if what on paper is not true then what would be true?
This and review thread are the only two threads are about them. New comer, going to BlackTrax or not its your decision and make sure to ask around, talk to people around the bay before you go there, that's all i need to say. Don't make mistake like i did.
/thread.

[240sx123$]

I think you're just afraid to show your face there again after talking shit on them on the internets.

[yingiang]

some of you guys are fucking stupid.

if u went to a restaurant to eat and your food had a bug in it would you let them cook you new food? FUCK THAT

fool me once shame on you
fool me twice shame on me

[cdlong]

If what on paper is not true then what would be true?

Did you miss the 20 or so people that have been saying dynos are inconsistent? They can't be compared from brand to brand, even different units, they're affected by temperature, humidity, etc.? It's a tuning tool, not a cock measuring device. A dyno print out isn't going to tell you anything of merit, especially since you have a new engine. The only way to compare them apples to apples is to run it, swap maps and run it again.

But I was saying to check the tune maps themselves against each other and against a base map for the PFC. If you're concerned BlackTrax didn't really tune your car, check their tune against a base PFC map and see what's different. If they're mostly identical, you have something to work with.

[510-SR20DET]

some of you guys are fucking stupid.

if u went to a restaurant to eat and your food had a bug in it would you let them cook you new food? FUCK THAT

fool me once shame on you
fool me twice shame on me

Now this guy is on the same page with me. FUCK THAT.

[K_style]

some of you guys are fucking stupid.

if u went to a restaurant to eat and your food had a bug in it would you let them cook you new food? FUCK THAT

fool me once shame on you
fool me twice shame on me

Hey.. this is good one..

[240sx123$]

Did you miss the 20 or so people that have been saying dynos are inconsistent? They can't be compared from brand to brand, even different units, they're affected by temperature, humidity, etc.? It's a tuning tool, not a cock measuring device. A dyno print out isn't going to tell you anything of merit, especially since you have a new engine. The only way to compare them apples to apples is to run it, swap maps and run it again.

But I was saying to check the tune maps themselves against each other and against a base map for the PFC. If you're concerned BlackTrax didn't really tune your car, check their tune against a base PFC map and see what's different. If they're mostly identical, you have something to work with.

Exactly. Youre not having blacktrax retune it, all youre doing is reloading the map they already made. Its not like its some magical science that cant be undone. Dyno with current map, swap to old one and dyno, swap to basemap, and swap back to what youre running now. Then compare. I dont see what the big problem with that is. If you have the balls to come online and start talking smack on a shop, but arent willing to back it up with proof, what good are you? You sound like a 17 year old complaining because you didnt hit a certain whp. If you ACTUALLY had something against blacktrax, youd go out of your way to prove it. I know I would.

[doublestitch180]

There were 2 reasons why i stopped talking to you guys and brought my car to somewhere else.
1. My car didn't run more than 5 miles after the day i got my car back from your shop, then one day it wont start up. I brought the car in for you to check. You guys checked and insisted to tear down the engine "to take a look" who would put the engine back into one piece, who will pay the labor to have my engine back into one piece? You sure didn't mention about free if it was lack of proper service. Will you admit that it was due to lack of proper service once the engine is all torn apart? I don't think so, this game is too old. Also, on that day, you insisted me to tow the car back, didn't give a shit about my car. All you said was "I don't have time, come back another day" That's 30 miles of towing, come back another day?

Besides comparing dyno sheets. I think the main thing 510-SR20DET is pissed about is the way the shop was handling the situation to a point where he couldn't take it any more. Then decide to start this tread. Dude couldn't even drive more than 5 miles. If that's true, I don't blame the guy. I wouldn't go back to a shop if they gave me run around after all that.

[510-SR20DET]

some of you guys are fucking stupid.

if u went to a restaurant to eat and your food had a bug in it would you let them cook you new food? FUCK THAT

fool me once shame on you
fool me twice shame on me

some people actually do it, for example this guy 240sx123$ LOL

I dont need to be educated about tuning, i dont need to know about car. Any one in the right mind KNOW when their car running crab, even a 12 year old knows this. I paid $6000 fair and square, every penny and i expect the car to run good. Don't go around and fuck someone up then willing to "fix" it, "the door is open" like you are a good guy.
fool me once shame on you
fool me twice shame on me.

Ask any one on Zilvia who own PFC, do they need to crank more than 3 times to start the engine? Do they need to give it some gas to make it start? Ask drifters in japan, is PFC a garbage? You don't have to believe me, go ask yourself. Now you tell me. Is that a good tune? Again i don't need to know much about tuning.

In matter of fact im not the only one

http://zilvia.net/f/north-western-states/311501-apexi-power-fc-w-commander-tuner-san-francisco-bay-area.html

[240sx123$]

I think the part your missing is that any number of things could make a car run like shit. If youre going to come on here and claim someone specific is at fault for it, you ought to be ready to back that claim up if you want to be taken seriously. If I experienced what you did, and what you say is true- youre right, I wouldnt go back to blacktrax either. But im not convinced. I've had cars lose a tune before, maybe they tuned you and you lost the tune? Who knows? Nobody, unless you prove your claims. Thats all im saying. Its real easy to get behind a keyboard and start smearing peoples character. its another thing when its warranted and proven.

[GabeS14]

I think it's about time for the op to ask a mod to lock the thread and since the review thread is made.
It seams like it ran it's course.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[510-SR20DET]

Admin, can you please move this to North western? This is in Norcal.

[widebodyseven]

Admin, can you please move this to North western? This is in Norcal.
I believe this section is for both northern and southern CA

Stated above each section

South Western States Arizona, California, Hawaii, and Nevada.

north Western States Alaska, Idaho, Montana, Oregon, and Washington.

[supervenom]

Things can get very complicated in these types of situations. Its best to learn from the experience and move on.

Lesson learned, right...?

[sidedrifts13]

I have had bad experiences as well with rnd here in socal, just move on like I did, be happy that you met Frank, because he is legit this is his passion and he definately knows what he is doing.
Good luck to you bro some experiences are expensive but we live and learn

[slider2828]

There are only a few respectable shops in general...

Some just plain suck and steal your money. Some know a little about tuning, but nothing about the motor which gets you little gains. Some know how to tune.....

Time to move on

[510-SR20DET]

What goes around come around. They took that money from me. Eventually they will have to cough it out some how.
Lesson learned, just move on, my life is worth much more than 6 grand.