Mosque being built near Ground Zero

[rc1honda]

N.Y.C. Mayor Michael Bloomberg praises commission's approval of mosque near ground zero | NJ.com (http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2010/08/nyc_mayor_michael_bloomberg_pr_1.html)

Well it seems that the city of New York had given a green light for a mosque to be built near grond zero.

I for one think it's a disgrace. Not because it is Muslim in nature. Because it was the rifts that exist between major religions that fueled this catastrophe to happen in the first place.

Religious wars should never be condoned. Much less accepted.

Discuss

[PinkPanther]

"Bloomberg said the firefighters and other first responders who died in the attacks had done so to protect religious freedom." Que?
" He acknowledged the emotional debate around the matter but said it would settle once the mosque is built." Come again?
IS THIS GUY FUCKING RETARDED?

[ronmcdon]

article states, built NEAR 'ground zero'.
Not built ON 'ground zero' (as OP's title currently states)

still, it's going to fuel a lot of unnecessary hostility.
it's also presumptuous to say the fire-fighters died for 'religious freedom'.
is that the official policy of NYC fire dept?

not the best PR decision, but then again iirc Bloomberg isn't running for another term of NYC mayor.
I don't dislike Bloomberg for the most part, but I think it's poor judgment here.
If the mosque was built ON ground zero, ppl would be rioting.

[S14DB]

Changed the title. Seeing how this goes it may be moved to Loud Noises.

It's a Mosque not the headquarters for the Taliban.

[sideways7]

The one thing that rubs me the wrong way, is that no one is really sure where exactly the $100 million dollars to build this thirteen story center is coming from. Lots of people are speculating that the money is coming from radical muslim organizations and that some of the money is even, possibly, coming from the same groups that funded the 9/11 attacks. Google Faisal Abdul Raif, he's the developer of the mosque, and you'll find some interesting stuff in this guys history.

[Daniel.]

Changed the title. Seeing how this goes it may be moved to Loud Noises.

It's a Mosque not the headquarters for the Taliban.

I couldn't have said it better myself. The two are not automatically mutually inclusive of eachother.

[S14DB]

The one thing that rubs me the wrong way, is that no one is really sure where exactly the $100 million dollars to build this thirteen story center is coming from. Lots of people are speculating that the money is coming from radical muslim organizations and that some of the money is even, possibly, coming from the same groups that funded the 9/11 attacks. Google Faisal Abdul Raif, he's the developer of the mosque, and you'll find some interesting stuff in this guys history.

By the misspelling of his name I can see where you got your data from.
Feisal Abdul Rauf - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feisal_Abdul_Rauf)
Cordoba House - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cordoba_House)

[turboboost12004]

I say tear it down......or blow it up...

[Daniel.]

I say tear it down......or blow it up...

So much for keeping this discussion intelligent.

[Matej]

Money talks.


It's a Mosque not the headquarters for the Taliban.
Unfortunately, the rise of mosques is directly proportional to subway bombings and cartoonists getting stabbed.
Wish I was joking.

[aa87]

And the rise of churches probably have similar effects on abortion clinic bombings and alternative teaching of alternative creation science (non-science), both terroristic acts.

This will definitely go to loud noises

[S14DB]

Money talks.



Unfortunately, the rise of mosques is directly proportional to subway bombings and cartoonists getting stabbed.
Wish I was joking.

I wish you had proof to back this claim up...

And the rise of churches probably have similar effects on abortion clinic bombings and alternative teaching of alternative creation science (non-science), both terroristic acts.

And the Westboro Baptist Church is indicative of all christian beliefs

This will definitely go to loud noises
Yeah, definitely jumped the shark to loud noises.

[racepar1]

Personally I see it as a good thing. Just because someone is muslim doesn't mean they are a terrorost. Approving that mosque only re-enforces the US government's belief in the above statement. IMO that could do nothing but relax muslim-US tensions a little. I see no way that it could be a disgrace at all.

[ronmcdon]

Personally I see it as a good thing. Just because someone is muslim doesn't mean they are a terrorost. Approving that mosque only re-enforces the US government's belief in the above statement. IMO that could do nothing but relax muslim-US tensions a little. I see no way that it could be a disgrace at all.

Agreed with that logic.
Of course being Muslim doesn't equate to terrorism, but I'd wager that realistically that many (if not most) Americans don't see it that way.
There isn't any wrong or right in this, but it is a risky move.
There are less risky ways to reduce tension.
Taking that 100 mil, & donating it to the victim's families would be one such way.

[ineedone]

First of all, legally/constitutionally there is nothing anyone can say. Freedom of/from Religion is a biggie in this country.

I am no big fan of any "Religion" however, I think it will be a great healing tool within the community. Park 151 or whatever it will be called is more than just a mosque, it is a community center. Hopefully, the people who have the biggest rift will go there to speak with the religious leaders there. My guess is they will be met with rather caring individuals who have been hurt by 9/11 just as much as them. As much as I would love to say all religion is bad, that just is not the case. For as much hate that can be attributed to religion, you can find as much love if not more. Either way, I blame Glenn Beck and his Beck-tards for making this an issue. Would any of you be up-in-arms if it was a church being built there? No one would blink.

This country is not a "Christian Nation" as some would like to believe, but a nation with no religion. One that allows the full spectrum from Full on Atheist, to Full on White Power... and every extreme and in between.

Next time I am in the city, I really want to visit the place and see how they are helping the community. I am sure it will be an emotional and eye opening experience.

[bb4_96]

I foresee a rash of anti-muslim hate crimes in the relative vicinity on the mosque followed by a lull as everyone forgets and moves on. Greater issues are at hand in this country.

[5pecialist]

We all know why they are really wanting a mosque in this location - LOL at the people trying to pretend it is for love and peace.

[zeitgeist]

Im okay with a mosque being built there, but a better alternative would be to build a center where multiple faiths can do their own services and praying but at the same time can host events where all the faiths come together and communicate with one another showing some kind of unification.
Makes sense to me

[5pecialist]

im okay with a mosque being built there, but a better alternative would be to build a center where multiple faiths can do their own services and praying but at the same time can host events where all the faiths come together and communicate with one another showing some kind of unification.
Makes sense to me
-----> win

[ineedone]

We all know why they are really wanting a mosque in this location - LOL at the people trying to pretend it is for love and peace.

Really... why would that be? the mosque is one section of a 15 story community center. So why would they want it?

I swear the stupidity of this country sometimes is frustrating, here you go guys.... be scared of the fitness center!!!!! and the culinary school!!!! ahhhhhhhhhh PARK51 (http://www.park51.org/facilities.htm)

Why is no one upset that the towers have not been rebuilt yet? The most ridiculous and disgusting thing about all this is that there has been no attempt to rebuild anything at the site of ground zero, mainly because of the greed of all the parties involved in it (insurance on all those dead people sure adds up!). The legal suits that have kept ground zero a hole are, well, I just feel embarrassed as an American because of it.

[ineedone]

Im okay with a mosque being built there, but a better alternative would be to build a center where multiple faiths can do their own services and praying but at the same time can host events where all the faiths come together and communicate with one another showing some kind of unification.
Makes sense to me

That is exactly what it is. It is no different then a Jewish Community Center, or any community center which allows churches to hold services within them. The only reason this made any news is because "brown" people with money are scary:duh:

"According to an outside consultant working directly with Park 51, who agreed to speak about the project on the condition of anonymity, if built, Park 51 (a non-profit facility) would cover 150,000 square feet and stand approximately 13 to 15 stories high. The space would be divided into a prayer space for Muslims and include meeting spaces, meditation rooms, a memorial dedicated to 9/11, a spa, basketball court, swimming pool, auditorium, and classrooms offering everything from digital photography to language classes, all open to the public. The entire facility would also be green and include a garden.

“This project is being planned very professionally and seriously,” the source said. “Everything is legit and transparent. We've sought senior staff at the 92nd St. Y and the JCC to get advice on how to delegate various tasks.”

According to the source, discussion groups were held with New Yorkers of different backgrounds, faiths, cultures and races. They were asked what they wanted and what the city needed, and the answer was the same –- a community center that could service Lower Manhattan.

“This space is going to be available to the public for lease,” the source said. “If a Jewish group wants to have an event, they can come in and borrow the space. We're looking to fill the needs of the community."

[mr_eh]

haters gonna hate

http://media.silive.com/eastshore/photo/mosquejpg-49477cb8cb57db02_large.jpg

[5pecialist]

I swear the stupidity of this country sometimes is frustrating
Your posts in the Noah's Ark thread seem to indicate that you hate religion - then in this thread, you defend a radical religion's incendiary choice of location of this mosque. I guess religion is okay as long as it's not Christianity?

[ineedone]

Your posts in the Noah's Ark thread seem to indicate that you hate religion - then in this thread, you defend a radical religion's incendiary choice of location of this mosque. I guess religion is okay as long as it's not Christianity?

My personal opinion about religion (any religion, is the same, its a hoax, a joke). I never said I hate it either. What I absolutely do believe in is the constitution. 2 completely different things. I admitted in the other thread that as a whole, religious people generally are loving caring people. Does not mean I am buying there snake oil and bowing down to it. The gym I lift at is a JCC (yay for free gym through school!), and I am in no way Jewish. All the people there are really good people, who I disagree with on a lot of issues with, but for the most part (mainly because they are buffet style believers) we get along great.

Radical religion? Incendiary? hmm... maybe your just a racist? Not very Christian is it... well... the KKK are christian soldiers... so wait... what? See what I did there? did you see it? because that just happened.:l101:

[aa87]

Your posts in the Noah's Ark thread seem to indicate that you hate religion - then in this thread, you defend a radical religion's incendiary choice of location of this mosque. I guess religion is okay as long as it's not Christianity?

There's radicals in every religion. You can't claim one religion radical, you use the same principle in opposite, that Christianity is ok, most other religions are not.

Theres a difference between hating religion, but being tolerant of religion. When religion oversteps boundaries -> attempting to disprove science as it was meant and force its ways into our schools (separation of church and state), then there needs to be a tolerance for not simply Christianity, but others as a whole

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:y40uG3KHcPjm6M:http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y79/psychodiva/2008-01_Hypocrites.jpg&t=1

http://blogtown.portlandmercury.com/files/2007/11/flying-spaghetti-monster.jpg

[singlecamslam]

Muslim is the most widespread religion, its only a few retards that think "you believe in out god or die" Quit trippin.

[ineedone]

Muslim is the most widespread religion, its only a few retards that think "you believe in out god or die" Quit trippin.

Not quite... I think these figures are from a couple years ago, but yeah, Christianity is the largest by far (and we are afraid of the Muslims "world domination":dead:)

1) Christians - 2,116,909,552 (which includes 1,117,759,185 Roman Catholics, 372,586,395 Protestants, 221,746,920 Orthodox, and 81,865,869 Anglicans)
2) Muslims - 1,282,780,149
3) Hindus - 856,690,863
4) Buddhists - 381,610,979

[ronmcdon]

I really doubt this has anything to do with Christianity, and nor does it have anything to do with laws b/c none are really broken.
All you can really debate is the ethics of the matter & whether or not it's going to be an effective move to reduce tensions between Muslims & those who don't trust Muslims to begin with.

It seems to me that the general American public just doesn't see Islam in a favorable light.
It's convenient to blame the religion as a whole for 9-11.
Not saying I agree with that, but I get the impression that's the prevalent attitude.
Just b/c you can see that it's wrong to think that way, doesn't mean others will feel the same.

Being Christian is irrelevant imo, and I think it's naive for those of you making this into a Christian vs. Islam thing.
You can be non-religious and be distrustful all the same of Islam.

Like the religion or not, it has been associated with a lot of bad rep in the past decades.
Ppl love to judge when guilty by association.
Not saying it's right or wrong, it just happens.

[Walperstyle]

yet another thread turned into a Christian vs Musulm debate.



I'll say it like I've said it everywhere else. If you were to build a mosque right next door to a prime target for terrorists, don't you think the terrorists would think twice to bomb it and risk hurting the mosque.


...unless they are irish terrorists

[ineedone]

yet another thread turned into a Christian vs Musulm debate.



I'll say it like I've said it everywhere else. If you were to build a mosque right next door to a prime target for terrorists, don't you think the terrorists would think twice to bomb it and risk hurting the mosque.


...unless they are irish terrorists

Wait... Terrorist are Muslims? Funny, never thought of it like that.... I need to watch more Fox News.

[slideslidegnarslide]

^^^ nicely done sir

[HalveBlue]

Much ado about nothing.

There's nut jobs in every religion.

Only the ignorant and hypocrites go around preaching about freedom while denying the same to those they don't like.

[cc4usmc]

Wait... Terrorist are Muslims? Funny, never thought of it like that.... I need to watch more Fox News.

I thought it was agreed that the terrorists were Muslim Extremists?

[slideslidegnarslide]

^^is that a joke or no? im not sure

NOT flaming cause idk but it could be any one not just muslims maybe google the definition of the word? if it was a joke im sorry

[cc4usmc]

No..no joke. I'm not talking about all terrorists, just the ones that specifically pertain to this situation.

[ineedone]

I thought it was agreed that the terrorists were Muslim Extremists?

They were Al-Qaeda, they are not Muslims, they do not believe in Islam. Terrorist are terrorist, it does not matter what flag they wave or what religion they pretend to hide behind. Are you following my logic on this?

[HalveBlue]

They were Al-Qaeda, they are not Muslims, they do not believe in Islam. Terrorist are terrorist, it does not matter what flag they wave or what religion they pretend to hide behind. Are you following my logic on this?

In one word, NO.

It's a fact that all of the hijackers and planners of the 9/11 attacks were Muslim and driven by an extreme Wahhabist ideology.

[cc4usmc]

They were Al-Qaeda, they are not Muslims, they do not believe in Islam.

Where are you getting your information?


Isn't the mosque that the 9/11 terrorists used under investigation again?

[ineedone]

In one word, NO.

It's a fact that all of the hijackers and planners of the 9/11 attacks were Muslim and driven by an extreme Wahhabist ideology.

Okay, so you are fine with calling the KKK Christians?

Find me one thing in Islam that supports Terrorism. They followed a perverted teaching of Islam, that is not Islam.

[cc4usmc]

Now we're playing word games. Sweet.

[ineedone]

Where are you getting your information?


Isn't the mosque that the 9/11 terrorists used under investigation again?

Yes, they hid behind the facade of being Muslim. Terrorist are terrorist though, they are the same as the people who bomb abortion clinics, they are the same as the Oklahoma City Bomber.

What I am trying to say is that, it is dangerous when you put a religious label on a terrorist. Look at what it has done to this country, we (not myself, but a hefty % of people truly are) are afraid of moderates who want a community center.

[ineedone]

Now we're playing word games. Sweet.

That is exactly it. Would you have even thought twice if they said they were building a multi-purpose building? or just a community center? No, this would not be an issue. In the area, there is a large population of Muslims, with businesses in and around the Ground Zero area. No one is talking about that, because it does not matter.

[cc4usmc]

I think you're afraid to put a religious label on a terrorist because you want to be politically correct. You can say that religion plays a part, but that's as far as you'll go. The fact of the matter is, these certain terrorists use the Muslim religion as the back bone of their cause, no matter how twisted the words are.

You can't look at two Muslim individuals and tell which one is a radical. They look the same, talk the same, smell the same. Just look at all the people that have popped up since 9/11 in support of them. You've got regular ass looking people trying to blow up Time Square.

I think the people in NY are just afraid that if this mosque goes through, it's just going to way for the wrong people to get in. Does that make any sense?

[fckillerbee]

the problem isn't religion....it's why it's being built.

when googling muslim mosque....the second link was "do muslims build mosque's on land that is conquered" Here was the answer to that question on WIKI

The Koran (018:021) states: 'Build a building over them, their Lord knows best about them;' and those who prevailed in their affair said, 'We will surely make a mosque over them.'

This is not a direct commandment to build on a place of victory, but there is a tradition of building mosques to celebrate or symbolize victory.

"The al Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem is built on top of one of the holiest sites in Judaism, the Temple Mount. The former St. Sophia's Basilica, once the world's largest cathedral and orthodox patriarchal basilica, was torn down and replaced with the principal mosque of Istanbul. The Cordoba mosque in Spain was a former Christian cathedral. Muslims have engaged in this practice for centuries, symbolizing their victories over the infidels."

this should be why there is an argument about this....it's ethics.

[ineedone]

I think you're afraid to put a religious label on a terrorist because you want to be politically correct. You can say that religion plays a part, but that's as far as you'll go. The fact of the matter is, these certain terrorists use the Muslim religion as the back bone of their cause, no matter how twisted the words are.

You can't look at two Muslim individuals and tell which one is a radical. They look the same, talk the same, smell the same. Just look at all the people that have popped up since 9/11 in support of them. You've got regular ass looking people trying to blow up Time Square.

I think the people in NY are just afraid that if this mosque goes through, it's just going to way for the wrong people to get in. Does that make any sense?

No, that does not make sense, the people in NYC that are upset (which has been been blown completely out of proportion, most do not care), are because the news has drummed this up to be a 15 story Mega-Mosque that is a symbol that the Muslims conquered the US. The actual Mosque however, is one room in a very large community center.

You can look at anyone and never know anything about them. You can not tell who is a rapist, who is a racist, who is a terrorist. If you are afraid of brown people, just admit it. However, those fears are not reasonable or rational. Those type of views are the mainline views of hardcore racist, radicals, and people with medical conditions!

It is not about being politically correct, it is about the message. What people have popped up? They use religion to lure in young, impressionable minds, and then they brainwash them. Not with religion, but with hate. Twisted words are just that, twisted, nothing more.

[cc4usmc]

I wasn't aware it was a 15 story building. I tend to not follow the news because it gives me gray hair.

Is there any particular reason why the "community center" cannot be built somewhere else? Ya know.. farther away?

[Walperstyle]

Wait... Terrorist are Muslims? Funny, never thought of it like that.... I need to watch more Fox News.

numb nuts read my last line

[ineedone]

the problem isn't religion....it's why it's being built.

when googling muslim mosque....the second link was "do muslims build mosque's on land that is conquered" Here was the answer to that question on WIKI

The Koran (018:021) states: 'Build a building over them, their Lord knows best about them;' and those who prevailed in their affair said, 'We will surely make a mosque over them.'

This is not a direct commandment to build on a place of victory, but there is a tradition of building mosques to celebrate or symbolize victory.

"The al Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem is built on top of one of the holiest sites in Judaism, the Temple Mount. The former St. Sophia's Basilica, once the world's largest cathedral and orthodox patriarchal basilica, was torn down and replaced with the principal mosque of Istanbul. The Cordoba mosque in Spain was a former Christian cathedral. Muslims have engaged in this practice for centuries, symbolizing their victories over the infidels."

this should be why there is an argument about this....it's ethics.

...wiki... all I need to say.

How many Christian churches/cathedrals have been built around the world? Why were they built in those specific places? Again, it is a community center not a mosque.

And you are referring to customs that were in large practice by every civilization since the beginning of time. You are twisting a few phrases to fit the context you wish for them.

[ineedone]

I wasn't aware it was a 15 story building. I tend to not follow the news because it gives me gray hair.

Is there any particular reason why the "community center" cannot be built somewhere else? Ya know.. farther away?

Why? should we move all the Muslim stores too then? tell all the Muslims with food carts they are not allowed there either? Does anyone get upset with Catholic churches having schools in them? I mean they have serious problem with raping children... where are those protest?

Constitutionally there is nothing you can do about it, it is private property, and we have freedom of religion (which is over 2 blocks away from Ground Zero).

[ineedone]

numb nuts read my last line

It was tongue in cheek, and gave me a reason to talk smack on Fox "News" sorry!

[cc4usmc]

Freedom of Religion isn't a pass to do whatever you want, wherever you want. I don't think it's unreasonable that the community should have a voice in it. They're not saying it can't be built, just not at that location. If I was in charge, I'd negotiate a reasonable distance away from ground zero and look for another building. They're not respecting the community, in my opinion.

Who knows, this entire thing could be a ploy to get new recruits to see how much people hate their religion.

[amdnivram]

I think you're afraid to put a religious label on a terrorist because you want to be politically correct. You can say that religion plays a part, but that's as far as you'll go. The fact of the matter is, these certain terrorists use the Muslim religion as the back bone of their cause, no matter how twisted the words are.

You can't look at two Muslim individuals and tell which one is a radical. They look the same, talk the same, smell the same. Just look at all the people that have popped up since 9/11 in support of them. You've got regular ass looking people trying to blow up Time Square.

I think the people in NY are just afraid that if this mosque goes through, it's just going to way for the wrong people to get in. Does that make any sense?


completely agree, as much as people want to try to not label a group its just too compelling.

[ineedone]

Freedom of Religion isn't a pass to do whatever you want, wherever you want. I don't think it's unreasonable that the community should have a voice in it. They're not saying it can't be built, just not at that location. If I was in charge, I'd negotiate a reasonable distance away from ground zero and look for another building. They're not respecting the community, in my opinion.


Well, you are wrong. Freedom of Religion allows for you to worship whoever you want. Freedom of Speech allows you to say whatever you want. We are not a "moral" country that tells people what to do based on others feelings. We are a country of laws. The constitution is a awesome thing!

There is no such thing as a "reasonable distance." Mosque all over the country are being protested against. Newt Gingrich, someone who has a chance to run for president mind you, said no mosque should even be built in the USA, until churches are allowed to be built in Saudi Arabia. We should abandon everything this country is founded on, and be held to the standard of a country that stones women for showing a little to much skin... Good call...

What they are doing, which is respectful to the community, is holding session where people who are truly upset about this are invited to come and talk with the developers. Funny how we do not hear about that. From what I have read, it has changed many peoples perspectives, and is the reason why you do not see NYC going ape shit (we only see the "news" and people who do not live in NYC making this a big deal). Mind you, before this project even began, they worked with other local community center, both Christian and Jewish, so that they could properly address the needs of the area. Yeah... crazy people man! They also have other rooms that will be used for other faiths to practice in. And a cooking school! http://www.park51.org/facilities.htm Before you reply, check it out for yourself...


Who knows, this entire thing could be a ploy to get new recruits to see how much people hate their religion.

Are you really serious? Look, the guy who is the Imam, the head honcho, works for the FBI. He goes the middle east to spread United States democracy and works to improve middle east - US relations. Trust me, we need and really like this guy. Shoot, even Bush liked him... the Jr one... Stop listening/watching Glenn Beck please.

[ineedone]

completely agree, as much as people want to try to not label a group its just too compelling.

I am guessing all your friends look alike?

[amdnivram]

I am guessing all your friends look alike?

hmm wrong guess. You just expect people to be completely open minded when thats just not how things are. I know its not accurate to say that all Al-Qaeda members are muslim, or that their views are what muslim and all other religious followers believe in. Even with this, people still stereotype because it easier than just saying everyone is different and that we know nothing of anyone.

i know this is a little off topic, im just trying to say that its easier for people to say that the terrorists in this case were muslim. Now a mosque is being built near this area and although i personally dont care, i can see why residents would. I really cant see why anyone would say that they cannot understand why the people are reacting this way.

[theboy]

WHOOO HOOOOOOO RELIGION FIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i think we all need to give it up. If you hate the idea, then you hate the idea. Stop hiding behind a comp screen and do something about it. Put the few things they dont allow around the mosque.

A.K.A. a strip club on one side and a bar on the other.

[ineedone]

hmm wrong guess. You just expect people to be completely open minded when thats just not how things are. I know its not accurate to say that all Al-Qaeda members are muslim, or that their views are what muslim and all other religious followers believe in. Even with this, people still stereotype because it easier than just saying everyone is different and that we know nothing of anyone.

i know this is a little off topic, im just trying to say that its easier for people to say that the terrorists in this case were muslim. Now a mosque is being built near this area and although i personally dont care, i can see why residents would. I really cant see why anyone would say that they cannot understand why the people are reacting this way.

Yes stereotyping is easy, but does that make it right? Good luck with your life if you live that way, I am sure you have made a lot of friends that way.

Of course I understand why some people would react this way. That is not the issue here though. Like I stated before, no one is saying that every Muslim business/vendor in the area should move out. The only reason people have gone all up in arms about this specific building is because people have been tricked into believing this is some sort of Mega-Mosque. Misinformation is a disease.

I expect reasonable people to realize that just because someone is a Muslim, does not mean they are terrorist. Muslim's were among the people killed on 9/11 as well. Again, before you make a judgment on the issue, read about what this building actually is.

[5pecialist]

a strip club on one side and a bar on the other.
WERD. Someone needs to build a gay gym with glass windows that face the entrance to the mosque, so that the narrow minded have to see what they HATE so much each time they go to "pray". Next to that, a tribute to everything they hate about America: Women's rights, rock & roll, etc.

[murda-c]

WERD. Someone needs to build a gay gym with glass windows that face the entrance to the mosque, so that the narrow minded have to see what they HATE so much each time they go to "pray". Next to that, a tribute to everything they hate about America: Women's rights, rock & roll, etc.

lol cept for the fact that like half of america hates gays anyway...

[ineedone]

WERD. Someone needs to build a gay gym with glass windows that face the entrance to the mosque, so that the narrow minded have to see what they HATE so much each time they go to "pray". Next to that, a tribute to everything they hate about America: Women's rights, rock & roll, etc.

I thought all gyms were for the gays:ugh:

[HalveBlue]

Okay, so you are fine with calling the KKK Christians?

Find me one thing in Islam that supports Terrorism. They followed a perverted teaching of Islam, that is not Islam.

You need to slow your row there, hot shot.

You're reasoning skills are off.

I never stated that all Muslims are terrorist. Nor did I say that Islam sponsors terrorism.

The fact remains, the 9/11 attacks were planned and executed by an extremist group of fundamentalist Wahhabist.

Your statement seems to suggest that you are not familiar with what Al-Qaeda as organization is, or what it's intent is.

FWIW, I think the Muslim community has every right to build a mosque/community center on or near ground zero.

[5pecialist]

I think the Muslim community has every right to build a mosque/community center on or near ground zero.
The Qur'an calls for a mosque to be built on the sites of their victories. You don't think this would cause even more "misunderstandings"?

[ineedone]

You need to slow your row there, hot shot.

You're reasoning skills are off.

I never stated that all Muslims are terrorist. Nor did I say that Islam sponsors terrorism.

The fact remains, the 9/11 attacks were planned and executed by an extremist group of fundamentalist Wahhabist.

Your statement seems to suggest that you are not familiar with what Al-Qaeda as organization is, or what it's intent is.

FWIW, I think the Muslim community has every right to build a mosque/community center on or near ground zero.

That was not my reasoning, I was following the reasoning of others who were saying Al-Qaeda were Muslims. You are absolutely correct, they were fundamentalist Wahhabist, that is not Islam (both supporters and detractors of Wahhabism agree to this).

Al-Qaeda are terrorist, that is their intent. It is about power and money. Remember the Mujahideen? That is where the roots of Al-Qeada are. A rebel army that was financed by rich Saudi's (and the US).

[ineedone]

The Qur'an calls for a mosque to be built on the sites of their victories. You don't think this would cause even more "misunderstandings"?

Does it? where?


Park51 will grow into a world-class community center, planned to include the following facilities:

* outstanding recreation spaces and fitness facilities (swimming pool, gym, basketball court)
* a 500-seat auditorium
* a restaurant and culinary school
* cultural amenities including exhibitions
* education programs
* a library, reading room and art studios
* childcare services
* a mosque, intended to be run separately from Park51 but open to and accessible to all members, visitors and our New York community
* a September 11th memorial and quiet contemplation space, open to all

[HalveBlue]

The Qur'an calls for a mosque to be built on the sites of their victories. You don't think this would cause even more "misunderstandings"?

The problem with your logic is 1) You're equating all Muslim with those factions seeking the demise of the United States, and 2) even if that was the case, you have no evidence to prove that this is the case, other than perhaps an abstract verse from the Qur'an. And that won't hold up in court.

We live in a nation of laws. The construction of a mosque/community center near ground zero breaks no laws.

Muslims citizens are protected by the Constitution of the US as much as any other religious group.

That was not my reasoning, I was following the reasoning of others who were saying Al-Qaeda were Muslims. You are absolutely correct, they were fundamentalist Wahhabist, that is not Islam (both supporters and detractors of Wahhabism agree to this).

Al-Qaeda are terrorist, that is their intent. It is about power and money. Remember the Mujahideen? That is where the roots of Al-Qeada are. A rebel army that was financed by rich Saudi's (and the US).

So Wahhabism isn't a part of Islam, eh? Perhaps you should tell that 27 million + Saudis, that majority of whom follow Wahhabist teachings.

Also, terrorism is a means, not an end.

Also, I really doubt that Al-Qaeda's goals are "power and money". More like the establishment of a caliphate.

Osama bin-Laden comes from one of the richest families in the world and has access to millions, maybe billions of dollars.

If money and power are the ultimate goal he sure chose the most difficult path.

Also, you're simplifying the relationship between Al-Qaeda, the Mujaheddin, the Taliban, and the US.

[dat411kid]

This kind of stupidity....Affirms my belief of evil in politics...

I mean really....This idea really isn't a smart one for obvious reasons....

It boggles my mind that anyone of sound mind, could think this up to be a good idea. With good intent.

[ineedone]

So Wahhabism isn't a part of Islam, eh? Perhaps you should tell that 27 million + Saudis, that majority of whom follow Wahhabist teachings.

I spoke wrong, It is almost impossible to parse out all the different "teachings" of Islam. Even when trying to "define" Wahhabism, there are many different sects of that as well. I am guessing that is more of a philosophical debate though. We would have to start getting into Sunni/Shiite, Salaf, and the many different books/teachings each use. I do not know enough about all of it to really separate which is what.

Also, terrorism is a means, not an end.

Agreed.

Also, I really doubt that Al-Qaeda's goals are "power and money". Osama bin-Laden comes from one of the richest families in the world and has access to millions, maybe billions of dollars. If money and power are the ultimate goal he sure chose the most difficult path.

Did he? I mean, there are so many different angles you can look at. Bin-Laden is also, possibly, the worlds biggest big time big, did I say big? Heroine dealer. It is the same dichotomy as organized crime, however, this is on a much larger scale and uses a much more ruthless recruitment tool (the facade of religion). Also, somehow the worlds most wanted man has stayed relatively hidden without even a sniff of him (as far as the general public knows). Who really knows though, he could be dead for all we know. I am sure you could name quite a few other reasons as well.

I'll leave it at that. It seems to me, judging from your comments, that you do not have a firm grasp on the subject matter (no offense).

Who does though? How do you even begin to try and separate all the issues here. It is impossible. However, this thread is not about the exploitation of a religion to promote terror. It is about a community center. I think we agree on most of this, my angle was when you begin putting that religious label on you are in essence inserting the idea into peoples head that "Muslim's are terrorist." It is giving people a "legitimate" reason to have an unreasonable belief about a group of people who are different then themselves.

.... and to top it off, I think all "religion" is crap!

[ineedone]

This kind of stupidity....Affirms my belief of evil in politics...

I mean really....This idea really isn't a smart one for obvious reasons....

It boggles my mind that anyone of sound mind, could think this up to be a good idea. With good intent.

This is from an AP article yesterday. Fact Check: Islam already lives at Ground Zero (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gS7TE8pvuDxKMyat8RwtXh0A2KOQD9HM4IP81)

"No mosque is going up at ground zero. The center would be established at 45-51 Park Place, just over two blocks from the northern edge of the sprawling, 16-acre World Trade Center site. Its location is roughly half a dozen normal lower Manhattan blocks from the site of the North Tower, the nearer of the two destroyed in the attacks.

The center's location, in a former Burlington Coat Factory store, is already used by the cleric for worship, drawing a spillover from the imam's former main place for prayers, the al-Farah mosque. That mosque, at 245 West Broadway, is about a dozen blocks north of the World Trade Center grounds.

Another, the Manhattan Mosque, stands five blocks from the northeast corner of the World Trade Center site.

To be sure, the center's association with 9/11 is intentional and its location is no geographic coincidence. The building was damaged in the Sept. 11 attacks and the center's planners say they want the center to stand as a statement against terrorism. "

[5pecialist]

You're equating all Muslim with those factions seeking the demise of the United States
I'm sure there are those who do, and those who do not. I did not intend to imply a 100% corruption of Muslims, but it is noteworthy that the good ones do nothing in terms of damage control. You would think that decent Muslims everywhere would distance themselves from such people and work with the public to demystify their ways.

[theboy]

WERD. Someone needs to build a gay gym with glass windows that face the entrance to the mosque, so that the narrow minded have to see what they HATE so much each time they go to "pray". Next to that, a tribute to everything they hate about America: Women's rights, rock & roll, etc.

dont put stuff they hate, just stuff they cant have.

[ineedone]

I'm sure there are those who do, and those who do not. I did not intend to imply a 100% corruption of Muslims, but it is noteworthy that the good ones do nothing in terms of damage control. You would think that decent Muslims everywhere would distance themselves from such people and work with the public to demystify their ways.

When was the last time you took your medication?


Your facebook is pretty interesting, I am not sure if people are going to get the message though, you need more tats.

http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site181/2006/0613/20060613_123517_racist.gif

[HalveBlue]

I'm sure there are those who do, and those who do not. I did not intend to imply a 100% corruption of Muslims, but it is noteworthy that the good ones do nothing in terms of damage control. You would think that decent Muslims everywhere would distance themselves from such people and work with the public to demystify their ways.

The Fifth Ammendment pertains to Muslims as much as it does to citizens of other faiths.

What exactly do expect Muslims to do to "distance themselves from such people (whoever they are)?"

To be honest, it doesn't sound to me like you've ever had any sort of meaningful conversation with a Muslim.

Seriously, "demystify", WTF?

The Muslim community (all 1 billion+ of them) is diverse and broad. It's bound to contain it's fair share of assholes (like every other demographic).

Why do they get different treatment from everyone else? It's like the Red Scare all over again. :loco:

[ineedone]

The First Ammendment pertains to Muslims as much as it does to citizens of other faiths.

What exactly do expect Muslims to do to "distance themselves from such people (whoever they are)?"

To be honest, it doesn't sound to me like you've ever had any sort of meaningful conversation with a Muslim.

Seriously, "demystify", WTF?

The Muslim community (all 1 billion+ of them) is diverse and broad. It's bound to contain it's fair share of assholes (like every other demographic).

Why do they get different treatment from everyone else? It's like the Red Scare all over again. :loco:

5th amendment is Due Process!

[HalveBlue]

5th amendment is Due Process!

Correct.

...Innocent until proven guilty...

I was commenting on what seems to be an underlying message in a lot of posts in this thread. Namely, some people are not giving Muslims the benefit of the doubt by assuming that building a mosque near ground zero must an act of provocation or malice.

Because, come on, why else would Muslims want to build a mosque there? :rolleyes:

[cc4usmc]

Do Islamic center developers have the funds to build? - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_upshot/20100819/pl_yblog_upshot/do-islamic-center-developers-have-the-funds-to-build)

Apparently these guys don't even have money to build the mosque/community center.

[singlecamslam]

Obama is muslim therefore he is a terrorist. He's just pretending to be a president. Cant you tell?

[5pecialist]

The Fifth Ammendment pertains to Muslims as much as it does to citizens of other faiths.

What exactly do expect Muslims to do to "distance themselves from such people (whoever they are)?"

To be honest, it doesn't sound to me like you've ever had any sort of meaningful conversation with a Muslim.

Seriously, "demystify", WTF?

The Muslim community (all 1 billion+ of them) is diverse and broad. It's bound to contain it's fair share of assholes (like every other demographic).

Why do they get different treatment from everyone else? It's like the Red Scare all over again. :loco:
Perhaps I am not making myself clear. I'm talking more about a P.R. move, nothing more. If your organization was being misunderstood on a grand scale, would you not take the opportunity to educate people about it? Maybe it's just me, but I see this as a great opportunity.

[HalveBlue]

Perhaps I am not making myself clear. I'm talking more about a P.R. move, nothing more. If your organization was being misunderstood on a grand scale, would you not take the opportunity to educate people about it? Maybe it's just me, but I see this as a great opportunity.

I haven't met a Muslim yet who has refused to answer questions I have about their religion.

Quite the contrary, actually.

[fliprayzin240sx]

I think you're afraid to put a religious label on a terrorist because you want to be politically correct. You can say that religion plays a part, but that's as far as you'll go. The fact of the matter is, these certain terrorists use the Muslim religion as the back bone of their cause, no matter how twisted the words are.

You can't look at two Muslim individuals and tell which one is a radical. They look the same, talk the same, smell the same. Just look at all the people that have popped up since 9/11 in support of them. You've got regular ass looking people trying to blow up Time Square.

I think the people in NY are just afraid that if this mosque goes through, it's just going to way for the wrong people to get in. Does that make any sense?

So with the same mentality...I cant tell which priest is a child molester, they look the same, talk the same, smell the same...lets all put them in prison for molestation.

You cant blame religion for breeding idiots who think what they're doing is right. No matter what, these fucks are still just the 1% of Muslims are composed of.

I've lived in the Middle East, I've had friends who are Pakistani, Indians, Iranian, Kuwaiti, Palestinian, Egyptian, etc etc etc, they are all just like regular folks.

[5pecialist]

they are all just like regular folks.
Define "regular".

[S14DB]

Define "regular".

I see what you did there...

Most Muslims are not Islamist. Just like most Christians, Jews and Sikh are not Extremists.

[Brian]

The whole thing is simply in bad taste. Sure, they have every right to build it, but.... it just aint right and I think most people will understand that. Sadly, those that support the terrorists are probably on Cloud 9 with this whole ordeal.

[ayuaddict]

Just build a brosque

[J3123MY]

I look down and despise religion.... But America is about freedom.

[chitownguy]

The whole thing is simply in bad taste. Sure, they have every right to build it, but.... it just aint right and I think most people will understand that. Sadly, those that support the terrorists are probably on Cloud 9 with this whole ordeal.

Why is it in bad taste? It's just going to be a place where people of Muslim faith can go to worship. I'm sure that everybody that would go there have no affiliation with any terrorists group. If anything, you would be more likely to find someone who lost family/friends in the 9/11 attacks.

Now if they wanted to build a terrorist training facility on that location then I would completely agree with you. But I believe that if they have the money to build then they have every right to build a section of that community center into a mosque.

[Brian]

I simply feel that there are some things in life that people know should not be done, even though there might be nothing illegal about it. I believe this is one of those things. That's all I have to say about it.

[Matej]

Even though it may seem that we have come a long way in the past few thousand years, my belief is that human society is still in its primitive stages.

Just when it seemed that Christians are becoming more and more open-minded, and are even learning to take a joke at their expense; which is great progress; Muslims started spreading all over the world en masse, making religion a serious and dangerous issue everywhere yet again. When will this end already?
...Not in my lifetime. :(

[WheelWhore]

im with brian.

[ayuaddict]

Brosque!!!

[5pecialist]

Brothel :)

[ThatGuy]

It's a good thing Christians have never built a Church around a site where they killed Native Americans and drove the survivors off the land where they were born. That would just be horribly evil of Christians.

Oh, wait...

Well, at least there aren't Christian Churches built around the sites of the atrocities committed during the Crusades. That would really be insensitive.

Oh, wait...

Well, at least we didn't build Military bases in places we destroyed, so that we might continue to occupy part of the countries we fought, and claim that area as United States soil.

Oh, wait...

[godzillarb]

I read this whole thread, mainly because this is a hot button issue with some of my friends. Personally, I don't see what the big deal is. If it's legal to build there, they should do it. If the public gets all up in arms about it, so be it.

We're a nation of laws (at least, supposed to be). Follow the law. If you don't like it, change it.

[codyace]

I simply feel that there are some things in life that people know should not be done, even though there might be nothing illegal about it. I believe this is one of those things. That's all I have to say about it.

Well said brother.


I'm like you...do I like the idea? No. Is it probably poor judgment? In my mind yes

BUT

We were founded (as a nation) to accept people/religion/morals/values of all walks of life. For us to say 'no' as a nation to this project simply goes against everything we were founded on.

[codyace]

Well, at least we didn't build Military bases in places we destroyed, so that we might continue to occupy part of the countries we fought, and claim that area as United States soil.


Sooooooooo true. I laugh when people make a big stink about issues like this, and I remind them 'I lived on American soil, in Kirkuk...' they quickly retract what they were saying.

[EDT007]

I haven't read the whole thread to know whether or not this has been said so here I go anyway. I don't think most people have a problem with a mosque being built as much as the location itself. The fact is there are over 100 mosques in the five boroughs alone! Do they really need one more in that SPECIFIC area. It seems they are doing it more out of spite than necessity or simply because they can. I've heard some hearsay that a Greek church that was around since 1916 next to the towers was demolished when the towers went down and they were told they could not rebuild. Again, I'm not saying that is true or not but I really hope it isn't. For some to say that it's ok to build one and not the other is hyprocritical. Now I understand that this is getting all of this media due to the group that is involved but still. Let me ask you guys this, would you want to be one of the workers constructing this new mosque? Now take into account people threatening your life on a daily basis, petitions, demonstrations,etc. Is that something you're willing to do/put up with? Is that something the city of nyc and it's taxpayers will have to pay for (added security)?

[thrax]

I haven't read the whole thread to know whether or not this has been said so here I go anyway. I don't think most people have a problem with a mosque being built as much as the location itself. The fact is there are over 100 mosques in the five boroughs alone! Do they really need one more in that SPECIFIC area. It seems they are doing it more out of spite than necessity or simply because they can. I've heard some hearsay that a Greek church that was around since 1916 next to the towers was demolished when the towers went down and they were told they could not rebuild. Again, I'm not saying that is true or not but I really hope it isn't. For some to say that it's ok to build one and not the other is hyprocritical. Now I understand that this is getting all of this media due to the group that is involved but still. Let me ask you guys this, would you want to be one of the workers constructing this new mosque? Now take into account people threatening your life on a daily basis, petitions, demonstrations,etc. Is that something you're willing to do/put up with? Is that something the city of nyc and it's taxpayers will have to pay for (added security)?

100% True about the chuch, a historic Church was destroyed during 9-11 and the city has been giving them a hard time to rebuild.

St. Nicholas Church » Home (http://www.stnicholasnyc.com/)

[rc1honda]

I likes where this thread went. I have somewhat changed my stance from pure digust to more tolerance due mostly to the responses posted here.

Be that as it may, i still think a religous memorial in anyway is still a terible idea. I would rather have a pomp and circumstance memorial that is open to everybody. Not just a Mosque that's open to everybody.

It's the religous undertones that make me nervous not the fact thats it's a Mosque. I am a religous person but i know that religoin played a major role in 9/11 happeneing in the first place.

So build it and call it a Spirtual Center or something, Not a damn mosque, chruch, or temple. Honor the dead and our country at the same time.

[murda-c]

I likes where this thread went. I have somewhat changed my stance from pure digust to more tolerance due mostly to the responses posted here.

Be that as it may, i still think a religous memorial in anyway is still a terible idea. I would rather have a pomp and circumstance memorial that is open to everybody. Not just a Mosque that's open to everybody.

It's the religous undertones that make me nervous not the fact thats it's a Mosque. I am a religous person but i know that religoin played a major role in 9/11 happeneing in the first place.

So build it and call it a Spirtual Center or something, Not a damn mosque, chruch, or temple. Honor the dead and our country at the same time.

I thought it was being called a community center?

[SlideWell]

I guess they gotta have some place to pray 5 times a day, bankin on Manhattan. I wasnt aware there was a shortage of Mosque's there.
Just because something is legal, doesnt mean its right, its just what the 60 year old farts in office passed. did you or i have a say in it? hmmm. and just because something is illegal, doesnt mean its wrong. its just what the 60 year old farts passed in office. i could really care less about whether its built or not. still think a new megastructure should be built at ground zero, cuz u know thatd piss off those taliban bastards more than anything. be like, ok yes, we lost people and 2 great buildings, but we still have mo money than you, so BAM, new super-skyscraper in yo face.
whats also funny i might add is that im catholic(non-practicing), my dad is Muslim(non-practicing), and no one on that side of the family has said anything about it. :confused: i get to hear about this crap on Zilvia :fruit:

[5pecialist]

and no one on that side of the family has said anything about it. i get to hear about this crap on Zilvia
Because it's a political agenda being pushed by Mr. Hopey Changey, not the Muslims. Obama is trying to force Islam down our throats, whereas your family is probably busy being peaceful & shit, not trying to convert everyone.

[Quail]

I'm glad to see level headed people in this thread. A lot of the online media are blowing this way out of proportion. Excuse me for posting one of these articles, and excuse the stereotypical dry British humour, but it does raise some valid points:

Charlie Brooker | 'Ground Zero mosque'? The reality is less provocative | Comment is free | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/aug/23/charlie-brooker-ground-zero-mosque)

I see no problem with this community center (whatever you want to call it) being built, but is it sensible idea? No. I fear the repercussions. People need to detach the Islamic faith from the few extremist individuals that ruin it for the masses, but most don't seem to be able to.

[5pecialist]

People need to detach the Islamic faith from the few extremist individuals that ruin it for the masses, but most don't seem to be able to.
It would help if Islam would publicize this detail, or run a PR campaign. Their apathy does not help regular people to understand.

It also doesn't help that the only time we hear about Islam is when it's negative... such as their attempt to wipe out teaching of the Holocaust.

[Quail]

It would help if Islam would publicize this detail, or run a PR campaign. Their apathy does not help regular people to understand.

It also doesn't help that the only time we hear about Islam is when it's negative... such as their attempt to wipe out teaching of the Holocaust.

I totally agree, and most do, but as we know, as far as the media are concerned, bad news is good news (for selling papers and viewing statistics). Reporting on what everybody already agrees with (ie, terrorists are bad) doesn't do them any favours. Every interview I've seen with Islamic spokespeople has always denounced the actions of terrorists. What more can they do if they don't get the airtime? Unfortunately theres no PR department for the Islamic faith!

such as their attempt to wipe out teaching of the Holocaust.

Again, the few ruining it for the masses.

[ronmcdon]

What PR Campaign efforts would be recommended?
In all honesty, I think the most they can do is host charity events.
Christian based groups do this.
I don't hear much about Islamic groups doing this
(but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist).

Obviously you can't expect ads in the Superbowl or something like that.

[BustedS13]

i don't like churches in subdivisions. where's the angry mob for that?

[Quail]

What PR Campaign efforts would be recommended?
In all honesty, I think the most they can do is host charity events.
Christian based groups do this.
I don't hear much about Islamic groups doing this
(but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist).

Obviously you can't expect ads in the Superbowl or something like that.

All Muslims are meant to give 2.5% (minimum) of their wealth (monetary, livestock, etc) to Charity each year. I'm not Muslim so I can't say whether most stick to this, but I know its a requirement of the faith. Zakat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zakat)

[kingkilburn]

Because it's a political agenda being pushed by Mr. Hopey Changey, not the Muslims. Obama is trying to force Islam down our throats, whereas your family is probably busy being peaceful & shit, not trying to convert everyone.

QFT






Oh wait :jerkit::jerkit::jerkit::jerkit:

[Matej]

Well, at least there aren't Christian Churches built around the sites of the atrocities committed during the Crusades. That would really be insensitive.
Between the 7th and 18th century Muslims actually murdered or took into slavery pretty much half of Europe, along with a great portion of North Africa and Central Asia.
Just throwing that out there, because everyone always talks about how insensitive the Crusades were, even though Muslims did the same thing on a much larger scale and in a way more brutal manner.
Not trying to defend the Crusades, I dislike all things done in the name of religion, just sharing some neat history.

[5pecialist]

What PR Campaign efforts would be recommended?
In all honesty, I think the most they can do is host charity events.
Christian based groups do this.
I don't hear much about Islamic groups doing this
(but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist).

Obviously you can't expect ads in the Superbowl or something like that.
The Mormons seem to have a lot of ads on television... (not that I condone fake religions).

[BustedS13]

The Mormons seem to have a lot of ads on television... (not that I condone fake religions).

the mormons are just as ridiculous as any other denomination of christianity.

[5pecialist]

the mormons are just as ridiculous as any other denomination of christianity.
No, they are not. Mormonism is a fabricated religion.

What do you have against Christianity?

[BustedS13]

No, they are not. Mormonism is a fabricated religion.

What do you have against Christianity?

let me get RIGHT to the point here. which denomination are you?

[kingkilburn]

No, they are not. Mormonism is a fabricated religion.

What do you have against Christianity?

Christianity IS a fabricated religion and the LDS church isn't any crazier than any of the others.

That is my opinion based on actual experience going to MANY different churches.




BustedS13 I would bet money that this guy is a Baptist. That denomination tends to believe that no one is getting into heaven but them and the rest of the world is wrong for not agreeing with them.



Personally I'm more with the Jews with these issues.
First you had these shitty Jews break away from orthodoxy in the name of a false messiah. Then an all around horrible guy comes in from the dessert and tries to co-opt your contract with God.
After that both of these yahoos go around killing your people in the name of YOUR OWN God.

[BustedS13]

BustedS13 I would bet money that this guy is a Baptist. That denomination tends to believe that no one is getting into heaven but them and the rest of the world is wrong for not agreeing with them.

eh, I could see him being a Lutheran, but his location says KY so Baptist is a pretty good bet. I was a Lutheran and they were pretty "we're right you're wrong" too, always making jokes about Mormons/etc, but almost always Mormons. "they hate black people and native americans", "they allow polygamy", yeah, read the old testament, it's FULL of zany shit that we don't do anymore for the most part.

i guess i don't really care what religion 5pecialist is.

all religion is fabricated. it's a crutch. it helps people deal with death. that's my stance. i could go on for paragraphs but that sums it up. Mormonism was founded relatively recently. that's the only difference.

[kingkilburn]

As for the so called "mosque". . .

The media straight up lied about nearly every thing having to do with it.

It's not at, on, or even near the World Trade Center.

It's not a mosque.

Even if it was a mosque, who are you to tell any person what they can and can't do with their property. You can take away the first two points and it still stands.

Worst of all is the xenophobia and overt racism.

Mormonism was founded relatively recently. that's the only difference.

Not any more recently than any of the American forms of Christianity when compared to the older European and Middle Eastern branches.

[BustedS13]

i really think atheism is going to catch on this century. hot new trend. heatseeker.

[kingkilburn]

I don't know if it will be atheism catching on or people just not caring any more.

Either way +1 for that. We need the rep system back.

[5pecialist]

Denomination?! Go home.

[BustedS13]

Denomination?! Go home.

you just made fun of Mormonism, a denomination of Christianity. now, what superior denomination are you?

[5pecialist]

you just made fun of Mormonism, a denomination of Christianity. now, what superior denomination are you?
Mormons are a make believe religion. Sorry.

[Drift N Dragg]

Christianity IS a fabricated religion and the LDS church isn't any crazier than any of the others.




Is it? I would like to see your Proof on this...

You said your OPINION was based of many types of churches you attend, correct?

But you STATED, Christianity IS a fabricated .. That does not sound like a Opinion...

Please, I am honestly very curious on you input ..

[BustedS13]

Mormons are a make believe religion. Sorry.

this is the problem with religious arguments. you guys always take your ball and go home.

Is it? I would like to see your Proof on this...

You said your OPINION was based of many types of churches you attend, correct?

But you STATED, Christianity IS a fabricated .. That does not sound like a Opinion...

Please, I am honestly very curious on you input ..

everything we have has come from man. you have no proof that the men who wrote the bible were actually channeling God. it's a lot more believable that they were either batshit crazy or trying to make a buck.

[Drift N Dragg]

everything we have has come from man. you have no proof that the men who wrote the bible were actually channeling God. it's a lot more believable that they were either batshit crazy or trying to make a buck.

Again, you also have no proof that it wasn't GOD Channeling.

Not everything comes from man.

This is a Issue that can not be won.. Because no one can go back 20,000 Years to find out.

this is the problem with religious arguments. you guys always take your ball and go home.




Same is said about your Religious Argument.

Seems to me, that it is your point that you want right. So bring the ball back.

[kingkilburn]

I'll start with Jesus.
In Judaism there is a specific list of things the Messiah must be and also must not be. These things are nonnegotiable and set in stone. Jesus of Nazareth did not fit the bill. He is not the only Jew to claim to be the Messiah but he is one of the most far fetched.

Then we have the accounts of his life. They are all very conflicting and written way after the fact. Now I don't doubt the guy lived in that place and time but there is no way any self respecting Jew did much of any of the things that are attributed to him.

It all goes down hill from there. As the Catholics and Orthodox churches moved further away from Judaism they seem to have lost their connection to what is actually in the bible, specifically the old testament.





My opinion on the Morman church comes from years of searching for God myself. I went from church to church and non of it felt right. The best I could find were the Mormans. If you are going to believe that Jesus is your savior that is not a bad group of friends to have. They were all good people to me. I don't agree with some of the things the church leadership does but the people, the heart of the faith , are good.

What moved me out of christianity was my continued search for God. I ended up in a Chabad shul. Their ideas on God and faith, religion in general more aligned with what I was looking for.

After going and discussing many varying things with them I am still not convinced there even is a God.

Now my mind is going all over the place with different thoughts and ideas on the subject. lol
If there are any more specific questions on the subject you have for me you are welcome to ask. You will probably get a better answer that way too.



I know saying things like this are controversial but I'm not saying it to attack any one for what they believe. These are the conclusions I have come up with after trying to look at the facts of Christianity and Judaism scientifically and historically.

[Drift N Dragg]

I'll start with Jesus.


I have to say this ... Very well put together..

I am doing a Anthropology Report and this thread seems to be a good basis .. But I am impressed with your statement

[kingkilburn]

Thank you.

[SR240DET]

Again, you also have no proof that it wasn't GOD Channeling.

Not everything comes from man.

This is a Issue that can not be won.. Because no one can go back 20,000 Years to find out.


The ones making the claim must provide the evidence. Right now there is no proof.

[ESmorz]

Shut the fuck up. People the whole world over just need to shut the fuck up. Some brohammys wanna build a god damn Muslim Community Center dedicated to
their version of the man in the sky, all the power to them.

Technology and World Circumstances vs. The Progression of Morality and Beliefs... is an amusing and frustrating game to watch from the sidelines.

[ronmcdon]

The ones making the claim must provide the evidence. Right now there is no proof.

Well in science I think that's the general idea.
Like you said, the 'burden of proof' falls on those making the claim.

Also, it theoretically impossible to disprove anything other than math.
Can you disprove there's a magic dragon living inside your house/apartment (assuming you live in one) ?
That's impossible.

[kingkilburn]

It's rather hard to prove a negative.

Can you prove there is a magical dragon? Until you can, all available info/data says there isn't.

[BustedS13]

here's a link to donate to the Cordoba Initiative.

Donate | Cordoba (http://www.cordobainitiative.org/?q=content/donate)

http://imgur.com/ZXWIZ.png

[ineedone]

Well in science I think that's the general idea.
Like you said, the 'burden of proof' falls on those making the claim.

Also, it theoretically impossible to disprove anything other than math.
Can you disprove there's a magic dragon living inside your house/apartment (assuming you live in one) ?
That's impossible.

Even Math can not be "proven." There is a infinite number of integers between 0 and 1.

[kingkilburn]

And if you would like one found I can FIND and DOCUMENT it. Math is ABSOLUTELY provable.

Even irrational and imaginary numbers can be proven.

[theicecreamdan]

And if you would like one found I can FIND and DOCUMENT it. Math is ABSOLUTELY provable.

Even irrational and imaginary numbers can be proven.

"Absolute" is a poor word choice for your argument.
Gödel's incompleteness theorems - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_incompleteness_theorems)

[ineedone]

And if you would like one found I can FIND and DOCUMENT it. Math is ABSOLUTELY provable.

Even irrational and imaginary numbers can be proven.

Prove how far 0 is from 1.

[kingkilburn]

Given that 0 and 1 are both known quantities and they are exactly 1 whole apart it doesn't mater how many parts you chop the distance between the two into.

They can be 10/10 1/1 7584632/7584632. It doesn't matter.

[ineedone]

Given that 0 and 1 are both known quantities and they are exactly 1 whole apart it doesn't mater how many parts you chop the distance between the two into.

They can be 10/10 1/1 7584632/7584632. It doesn't matter.

What is 1 whole part? and what is the quantity of 1?

But it does absolutely matter:wiggle:

Look, I understand what we accept as 0 and 1. I am just merely pointing out that you can not give an "absolute" definition for it. Just like trying to define the word reasonable. It is just impossible.

[kingkilburn]

The unit of measure is unimportant in the instance you give. You did not give a distance, volume, or anything else to be measured.

0 is EXACTLY 1 whole from 1.

Sorry buddy you are still wrong and by the way you tried to be force being right I would say you need to go take some math classes.

[kingkilburn]

Merriam-Webster

Definition of REASONABLE
1
a : being in accordance with reason <a reasonable theory> b : not extreme or excessive <reasonable requests> c : moderate, fair <a reasonable chance> <a reasonable price> d : inexpensive
2
a : having the faculty of reason b : possessing sound judgment <a reasonable man>



Dictionary.com

rea·son·a·ble
[ree-zuh-nuh-buhl, reez-nuh-]

–adjective
1.
agreeable to reason or sound judgment; logical: a reasonable choice for chairman.
2.
not exceeding the limit prescribed by reason; not excessive: reasonable terms.
3.
moderate, esp. in price; not expensive: The coat was reasonable but not cheap.
4.
endowed with reason.
5.
capable of rational behavior, decision, etc.

[ineedone]

Merriam-Webster

Definition of REASONABLE
1
a : being in accordance with reason <a reasonable theory> b : not extreme or excessive <reasonable requests> c : moderate, fair <a reasonable chance> <a reasonable price> d : inexpensive
2
a : having the faculty of reason b : possessing sound judgment <a reasonable man>


So what does any of that mean? Extreme to what? What is extreme? It is just about impossible to define any adjective.

Look man you are missing the point. There is no absolute definition of reasonable, just like there is no absolute definition of an integer. If there existed an absolute definition of anything, there would be no debate about anything. Do you understand that at least? I am not arguing that yes, we all understand that 0 is 1 unit from 1, however, you can never absolutely define what that "1" is. It is just a philosophical debate. Don't let it get you all up in arms.

[kingkilburn]

You are forcing a "philosophical debate" where there is none.

You wanted definitions so I gave them to you. If you don't like the accepted definition that is a personal problem.

Now you want to say you can't define an integer. That's just fucking stupid. An integer by its very nature defined.




You are just blowing hot air. Maybe in your mind you had a legitimate argument going at some point here. Idk or care.


P.S.
A 1 is a 1. There is no dissenting opinion or debate about that.

[kingkilburn]

There is a infinite number of integers between 0 and 1.

I don't know how I missed this before. Even the basis of you argument is flatly wrong. There are NO integers between 0 and 1.

[ineedone]

You are forcing a "philosophical debate" where there is none.

You wanted definitions so I gave them to you. If you don't like the accepted definition that is a personal problem.

Now you want to say you can't define an integer. That's just fucking stupid. An integer by its very nature defined.




You are just blowing hot air. Maybe in your mind you had a legitimate argument going at some point here. Idk or care.


P.S.
A 1 is a 1. There is no dissenting opinion or debate about that.


You gave me an dictionary definition. One in which you could not even begin to tell me what it means. How do you know that a decision is reasonable? By community standards? by your own standards? Is a decision reasonable if it seems so to yourself, but to everyone else it seems not to be. Does God set the reasonable standard, or does Buddha? For example, in law, when you see a "reasonable person standard" that is a very important distinction. You find out what that means when after a jury of ones peers say... hmm yup that seems reasonable. Now, that standard is going to differ just about every single time (which is why people pay attorneys to figure those questions out! why we elect judges/congress to make laws that say this is what we think is reasonable or at least people we believe are least wrong about what reasonable means). You can not point to an absolute definition, yes there are widely accepted definitions and means of reasonable, but how can you being to even believe that it is consistent with no exceptions. And if you know anything about exceptions, they are what disproves "theory" or "truths" correct?

How many times can you divide the number 1 in half? .5, .25, .125, etc. It is never ending correct? So, in theory at least, you can never have a definite knowledge what the distance between 0 and 1 is, because their is a never ending set of number between 0 and 1. .9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999 (this could go on forever) is very close to 1, but will never be 1. So, with that also being true, when does that very large number take you from nothing to 1?

These are certain things we have to accept, and to be honest, quite elementary. Not sure why you keep fighting me on it? And are you sure you have exactly 1, or are you almost at 1 or just a little above 1? Get over the 1st grade math approach and think about it in real terms like science.

[kingkilburn]

I didn't even attempt to engage you on the debate over the definition. It's not that I am unable to but don't wish to.

Yes there are an infinite number of points between 2 points but that does not mean that they are a mystery or undefined. Also the fact that you can infinitely divide that distance does not mean the distance between the original points has changed.


You apparently lack any understanding of how mathematics work. I will not teach you and I will not debate with a brick wall any longer.



Sorry for the ridiculous threadjack. I hope the Muslim community center goes through.

[ineedone]

Also, it theoretically impossible to disprove anything other than math.

You said that... not me! All I am trying to say is nothing, at least to my knowledge is "absolute." There always exist exceptions!

Just for some reference for ya!

Why can't we divide by zero? (http://www.math.utah.edu/~alfeld/math/0by0.html)

And ye old wikipedia page, I shudder at the thought of using wikipedia but... eh, easiest way I guess! Philosophy of mathematics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_mathematics)

[kingkilburn]

double post

please delete

[kingkilburn]

That wasn't even me.

http://www.snay.org/funny-pics/hey-guys-whats-going-on-thread.jpg



EDIT

I don't even necessarily agree with the statement.

[Brian]

Thread title change please.

This is now about numbers.

[kingkilburn]

Fuckin' numbers. How do they work?

http://knowyourmeme.com/i/000/046/123/original/magnets.jpg?1270937748

[Walperstyle]

Back up a second, when did this thread have anything to do with Christians.
...or fucking physics?

Meanwhile the rest of the world is suffering while you losers are arguing over something that wasn't even related to the original topic. Is it any wonder why China owns all the jobs and wealth the USA once had. Holy crap you guys are stupid.

[BustedS13]

Back up a second, when did this thread have anything to do with Christians.
...or fucking physics?

Meanwhile the rest of the world is suffering while you losers are arguing over something that wasn't even related to the original topic. Is it any wonder why China owns all the jobs and wealth the USA once had. Holy crap you guys are stupid.

uh oh, somebody's feelings got hurt

[kingkilburn]

What fucking loser bumped this thread again?

[HalveBlue]

Meanwhile the rest of the world is suffering while you losers are arguing over something that wasn't even related to the original topic. Is it any wonder why China owns all the jobs and wealth the USA once had. Holy crap you guys are stupid.

What's the matter chap, why so arrogant?

[kingkilburn]

Is it any wonder why China owns all the jobs and wealth the USA once had.

China doesn't own shit. When the cheap labor moves else where so will the US's money.

[HalveBlue]

China doesn't own shit. When the cheap labor moves else where so will the US's money.

No.

United States public debt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_public_debt#Foreign_ownership)

[kingkilburn]

How do you think China keeps the Yuan so low. The same goes for Japan.

They both want to keep the balance of trade in their favor.