BART shooting update

[kingkilburn]

In a press conference outside the Los Angeles courthouse immediately after the verdict was announced, Oscar Grant's family spoke out about the verdict, calling it a "great disappointment." Oscar Grant's mother Wanda Johnson said ex-BART cop Johannes Mehserle's conviction of involuntary manslaughter felt like being "slapped in the face by a system that has denied us true justice."

Johnson spoke unexpectedly, adding her thoughts at the close of the family's press conference. "My son was murdered. He was murdered. He was murdered. He was murdered," she said, calm but forceful, enunciating every word and looking straight into the dozens of news cameras that had gathered outside the courthouse.

On New Year's Day 2009, Mehserle shot the 22-year-old Oscar Grant in the back while he lay face down on a BART train platform. Grant, who had his arms behind his back when Mehserle shot him, was unarmed.

The three-week murder trial ended last week and the verdict came quickly. Subtracting time for the July 4th holiday and juror illnesses, the jury deliberated together for just under nine hours. Mehserle was convicted on Thursday afternoon of involuntary manslaughter, the least serious of the three charges he faced. The jury's verdict included a gun-crime sentencing enhancement, which carries the possibility of additional jail time.

"The verdict was not what we wanted and it's very painful at this time to even talk about the verdict and how it came back," Grant's uncle Cephus Johnson said. "But we believe this battle is not over. [Ex-BART cop and fellow arresting officer] Tony Pirone has a debt to pay. Johannes Mehserle has a debt to pay. And if Johannes Mehserle's debt don't be paid according to the system, there is a higher moral justice that he will pay to."

Oscar Grant's family, who appeared exhausted and angry at its press conference, remained firm in their belief that Mehserle's actions that night constituted murder. They voiced concerns that the jury acted too swiftly--there were dozens of pieces of evidence and five cell phone videos from that night to review during the short time jurors deliberated. Grant's uncle Johnson said that the verdict was far too quick for the seriousness of the charges.

Indeed, news of the verdict caught many people off guard. Family and media had just an hour's notice about the verdict's announcement before the courtroom was sealed. Johnson, who wore a full suit to court every day, was caught today in a Kangol hat and a t-shirt; he could not even get inside the courtroom to hear the verdict.

"We recognize as African Americans, the system is rarely fair when police officers are involved in the shooting of African American males," the Grant family's attorney, John Burris said. "This is another example of that."

Burris, who is representing the Grant family in a $25 million civil suit against BART, argued nonetheless that today's verdict was also historic. "In my long history being involved in police matters since 1979 and well over 30 homicides with police, never have I had a case when a police officer was convicted of any crime against an African American male."

Sentencing Mehserle

The family is looking now toward Mehserle's sentencing, which will take place on August 6. At that time, the family will have the opportunity to make a victim impact statement that they hope Judge Robert Perry will take into account when issuing the jail sentence. Mehserle faces a two to four-year term for just the involuntary manslaughter, but up to an additional 10 years for the gun enhancement. It's unclear how the two convictions square, however, since the gun enhancement requires a shooter to have fired a gun intentionally.

Either way, many in Oakland are outraged that the jury accepted Mehserle's defense that the shooting was an accident. "The law has not held the officer accountable the way he should have been held accountable," Grant's mother Wanda Johnson said at the press conference. She urged "other families who might go through this" not to give up, and to have faith in God, who would never fail anyone--even though the criminal justice system might continue to disappoint.

Taken from "MY SON WAS MURDERED"--GRANT'S MOM - COLORLINES (http://colorlines.com/archives/2010/07/my_son_was_murdered--grants_mom.html)


CLIFF'S NOTES
The cop who shot the hand cuffed guy in the back was convicted of man slaughter.

[RiversideS13]

$25 million law suit against BART??! that is crazy

[vvtisupra]

i remember seeing that video. Ruthless

[fliprayzin240sx]

I'm surprised they're not rioting in Oakland yet...watching this shit on TV all the way from Japan.

I kinda agree with the involuntary manslaughter, I dont think Mehserle meant to shoot Grant. He fucked up by accidentally grabbing a weapon from the wrong side of his body. Watching his reaction after, you can tell there was shock in his face. The whole WTF did I just do look.

I'm not saying he shouldnt be accountable for it since its an accident. I think he should get the max 4 yrs atleast...cops need to stop getting treated differently than anybody else.

[lawrenceyang]

isn't there riots in the bay area right now about this ?

[Ares240SX]

Yes there were riots all last night in Oakland...

[ZenkiKid]

Mehserle got off easy. The least he can get out of this is probation for killing someone.

[ronmcdon]

He did get off too easy.
Involuntary my ass, I don't buy that you'd shoot at someone when you don't know if it's a tazer or gun.
Not like they're remotely similar.

I'd press for a civil case too if I were the family of the victim.

[Daniel.]

You know its fucked up when more people are talking about what team LeBron is going to play for over this.

[vvtisupra]

There was no reason for him to grab any weapon weither it be a baton, gun or a taser. MF'er was sitting on the ground with his hands behind his back with his head down

Edit: Lebron is kinda like the legal system for this officer. Taking the easy way out

[kingkilburn]

The guy was handcuffed sitting on a wall. After being there a few minutes they pull him off and commence to beating the shit out of the guy. The fucking cop decides to take it a little further and goes to whip out the tazer but dumb ass can't tell the difference.

If I were the judge and jury he would have gotten the shorter end of murder and all the other cops involved would have gotten accessory to murder.

[wangan_cruiser]

yea. i dont agree either.

someone is already on a cuff. laying on his belly and got shot from behind? and involuntary manslaughter? thats a fucking execution!

how big is the difference between a taser gun and real gun?

holy shit?

[aziankingz]

You know its fucked up when more people are talking about what team LeBron is going to play for over this.

its because this is only a cali thing - lebron is more national/global?

[CrimsonRockett]

yea. i dont agree either.

someone is already on a cuff. laying on his belly and got shot from behind? and involuntary manslaughter? thats a fucking execution!

how big is the difference between a taser gun and real gun?

holy shit?

I was thinking the same thing.

Isn't there a pretty significant weight difference between the two?

Definitely don't agree with the involuntary manslaughter deal.

He was let off easy.

[Daniel.]

its because this is only a cali thing - lebron is more national/global?

Yeah, i was just frustrated earlier. My facebook newstream was 100% cluttered with LeBron crap, then I saw the NBA thread.... so I had to say something.

It wasn't targeted at this thread specifically even though I posted it in here.

[ronmcdon]

Well I don't know what's worse.

Cop executing ppl for shits & giggles,
OR a cop who's too damned stupid to tell a tazer from a gun.
I guess it's no surprise either way.

http://www.bradeux.com/uploadedimages/711042TAZER.jpg

[ZenkiKid]

I read on CNN that the jury was all white. I am sure that made the difference in the decision.

[Ares240SX]

The police issued tasers out here look like this.

http://img805.imageshack.us/img805/3154/taser2.jpg

[bb4_96]

That was pretty brutal. Now that was an example of excessive force. I wonder if the seattle girl didn't say "eh, could have been worse". Totally agree though the sentence was wrong. Not only was it wrong it didn't make any sense. No part of that was invouluntary. These are the people intrusted with our safekeeping. If anything he should have gotten a longer than standard murder sentence.

All that said how do you justify $25 million? I understand it was a horrible happening but $25 million isn't gonna punish anyone but the taxpayers. The people that work with and employ the murderer of their son are still going to collect a check and probably a pension too. Only difference is those local public school's are gonna have to go to less days open per week. And in the end it isn't going to bring their son back.

Also if the other officer thought a partner was gonna taser someone why would you hold them? I don't know if the police issued tasers can transmit current from one body to another but my personal cow taser really does. Conversely why would you taser someone while your partner is touching their body? Either the partner knew he was gonna shoot him or was totally oblivious to what was transpiring. That being said logic would say that neither of the officers beleived a taser was being pulled.

I really wish i knew what pissed off the cops bad enough bad enough to shoot him, not that it changes their guilt.

[wangan_cruiser]

The police issued tasers out here look like this.

http://img805.imageshack.us/img805/3154/taser2.jpg



lol thanks for the pics but thats a lot difference between a real gun and a taser gun

im pretty sure that the real gun is a lot heavier than a taser gun.


and yes as i heard that most of the juror had law enforcement background.

[atom]

LOL it's kinda obvious almost everyone in the thread didn't actually follow the case....

1. There were conflicting reports whether he was cuffed or not. Even one of Grant's friends who testified for the prosecution said Grant was uncuffed at the time of the shooting.

2. The jury wasn't all white. It was white, latino, and one Asian.

3. Theres no way in hell he'd get only probation. Most people think he'll get the max for an involuntary manslaughter charge, which is 4 years I believe. The only thing left is now whether they can add gun enhancement charges, which is up to 10 more years in prison.

I think they got it right. All the testimony, even from the prosecution, showed Mehserle was surprised when he realized he shot Grant. Shitty training? Yes. Intent to kill? No.

[kingkilburn]

There is a massive difference between:
http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/Handguns/IMG_2323%20Stick.jpg


and


http://img805.imageshack.us/img805/3154/taser2.jpg




They are weighted differently and have different grips. They also keep them in a different spot on their belts so that when they train they build up muscle memory to reach for spot instead of the other.




EDIT:

If you have seen the video it is plain as day that he is cuffed face down with his hands behind his back.

[I LUV MY S13]

excessive force that led to a murder, whether it was accidental or not. I think he should've gotten more than manslaughter, but not no 25 to life crap. As stupid as this guy seems to be, I doubt he was intentionally trying to kill him also.

[I LUV MY S13]

yeah he was cuffed and on his stomach when shot

[wangan_cruiser]

mehserle has a background of being a racist.

of course its only a rumor

[bb4_96]

I already said:


Also if the other officer thought a partner was gonna taser someone why would you hold them? I don't know if the police issued tasers can transmit current from one body to another but my personal cow taser really does. Conversely why would you taser someone while your partner is touching their body? Either the partner knew he was gonna shoot him or was totally oblivious to what was transpiring. That being said logic would say that neither of the officers believed a taser was being pulled.

[I LUV MY S13]

I already said:


makes perfect sense, but I mean, would he hate him bad enough to kill him in front of HUNDREDS witnesses hence risking prosecution? could'nt be that stupid

[bb4_96]

^ I've seen even level headedest of individuals completely lose it right before my eyes.

[ZenkiKid]

3. Theres no way in hell he'd get only probation. Most people think he'll get the max for an involuntary manslaughter charge, which is 4 years I believe. The only thing left is now whether they can add gun enhancement charges, which is up to 10 more years in prison.



On judges discretion, they may intensify the sentencing due to the fact that he used a firearm on him.

"Mehserle faces two to four years in prison when he returns August 6 for sentencing. The judge could also impose an additional term of three, four, or 10 years because a firearm was used in the crime."

Guilty verdict in transit cop shooting – In Session: - CNN.com Blogs (http://insession.blogs.cnn.com/2010/07/09/guilty-verdict-in-transit-cop-shooting/?iref=allsearch)

Either way. I hope they put him in that special unit like what they did to OJ and John Gardner because I am pretty sure if they put him in normal circulation with the rest of the inmates he will get killed quick.

[Ares240SX]

The taser weighs almost nothing, about 7 ounces compared to the Glock 19 in the picture about which weighs about 30 ounces fully loaded.

[atom]

LOL would you guys stop looking at grainy ass youtube vids and look at the testimony? One of Oscar Grant's friends testified Grant was uncuffed at the time of the shooting.


On judges discretion, they may intensify the sentencing due to the fact that he used a firearm on him.

"Mehserle faces two to four years in prison when he returns August 6 for sentencing. The judge could also impose an additional term of three, four, or 10 years because a firearm was used in the crime."

Guilty verdict in transit cop shooting – In Session: - CNN.com Blogs (http://insession.blogs.cnn.com/2010/07/09/guilty-verdict-in-transit-cop-shooting/?iref=allsearch)

Either way. I hope they put him in that special unit like what they did to OJ and John Gardner because I am pretty sure if they put him in normal circulation with the rest of the inmates he will get killed quick.

Heres the thing, from what I understand the gun enhancement charge requires knowing usage of a firearm in the commission of a felony. By finding him guilty of only involuntary manslaughter, the jury is basically saying they thought Mehserle thought he was using his taser and not his gun. So it's kind of a gray area whether they can charge him with it.

[bb4_96]

the using a taser bit is bullshit

[kingkilburn]

Also if the other officer thought a partner was gonna taser someone why would you hold them? I don't know if the police issued tasers can transmit current from one body to another but my personal cow taser really does. Conversely why would you taser someone while your partner is touching their body? Either the partner knew he was gonna shoot him or was totally oblivious to what was transpiring. That being said logic would say that neither of the officers beleived a taser was being pulled.

The electricity only passes between the barbs. If you look at videos of police training with this type of tazer you will generally see two people actively holding onto the guy before during and after being tazered.

I think the only way to shocked with the target would be if you were hit by one barb and him the other. On the other hand I don't know that it would every fire the charge in that situation.

LOL would you guys stop looking at grainy ass youtube vids and look at the testimony?

That grainy ass video is the ONLY thing that got this guy convicted. The only thing that got the event investigated. And the only eye witness I would trust when available.

the using a taser bit is bullshit

I think it shows his intent to harm a man already under control(assuming he was really going for the tazer, which I don't).

[Omarius Maximus]

Looked like an accident to me....and I'm a cop hater extraordinaire.

[BOROSUN]

what you serious?

[kingkilburn]

Looked like an accident to me....and I'm a cop hater extraordinaire.

Would you like to explain to us why he was tazing the guy than.

[orion::S14]

Looked like an accident to me....and I'm a cop hater extraordinaire.

I agree...and I thought so when I first saw the video.

Guy made a bad/weird decision, and it had horrible consequences.

You guys are acting like they had a continual feud, and the cop finally got the guy by shooting him.

To me, "involuntary manslaughter" seems pretty appropriate for a accidental shooting.

No one got "murdered"...a guy died at the hands of another guy, on accident. A stupid, bad decision...that was an accident. You REALLY think that cop wanted to just kill someone? If so, you're a moron.

- Brian

[!Zar!]

Pretty much the question have is, how much time is accidental murder worth?

[TheWolf]

ok group of black guys, "hammered and stoned" on the subway @2am on new years, then started a fight with other passengers on the train. Then when the train stopped he ran from the cops and got back on the train. Then tried to knee one of the cops. Then he started giving white cops some shit when he heard he was under arrest...

The cops on the other hand had been shot at twice the hour earlier and were in no mood to play.

Oscar Grant informed the officer of his intent to "fuck his bitch ass wife in the ass till she bled" because he was a "dumb ass ignorant mother fucker".

The officer then responded with this "bitch ass nigger" was definitely going to jail.

Hand cuffs came out and he got up to confront the officers. While resisting 2 officers on the hand cuffs, one thought he was going to taze him. Verbally said "I'm going to taze him" 3x. Then pulled out his gun and shot him

he was gonna get an ass whoopin or shot.. there was multiple times during this previous description to back down and would have probably resulted in him not getting shot. Personally though I'm glad he got shot.

He was a high school drop out that was a 2x convicted drug dealing felon. Punched and shot at officers before. Was high on pain killers and alcohol when confronted that night.

Lets just face it people. He was a ghetto thug piece of shit. We should be happy that he'll no longer be a leech on the tit of america. Good riddance to people like that. That cop should be praised. Think of all the welfare money and health care costs america won't have to pay now so a degenerate societal member can exist.
No longer will any of my tax dollars go towards enabling that piece of shit.

It's a shame the cop actually got convicted. He was a good cop with a flawless record and a family man.

How does the community react? Lets break some shit. Riot and break more shit. Then the family wants to sue the state and get rich off their dead brother. Absolute ridiculous.

[Omarius Maximus]

Would you like to explain to us why he was tazing the guy than.

I feel that tazing someone would be absolutely appropriate in that situation. He's obviously resisting arrest.

I'll go off on a tangent here; I was a bouncer for a little while in downtown SD. The belligerent drunks that we kicked out of the club and were subsequently arrested would almost always resist arrest. What did they get for their troubles? Broken noses. Bruises. Lacerations. Some were sleeper held to unconsciousness. All by SD's finest.

A tazer truly is the most HUMANE thing you can do to stop someone resisting arrest. The only physical damage will be the two little pricks from the tazer's prongs. That's it.

If I'm vastly outnumbered by a group of unruly punks, I'd want to subdue the most troublesome ones until backup showed up.

[I LUV MY S13]

ok group of black guys, "hammered and stoned" on the subway @2am on new years, then started a fight with other passengers on the train. Then when the train stopped he ran from the cops and got back on the train. Then tried to knee one of the cops. Then he started giving white cops some shit when he heard he was under arrest...

The cops on the other hand had been shot at twice the hour earlier and were in no mood to play.

Oscar Grant informed the officer of his intent to "fuck his bitch ass wife in the ass till she bled" because he was a "dumb ass ignorant mother fucker".

The officer then responded with this "bitch ass nigger" was definitely going to jail.

Hand cuffs came out and he got up to confront the officers. While resisting 2 officers on the hand cuffs, one thought he was going to taze him. Verbally said "I'm going to taze him" 3x. Then pulled out his gun and shot him

he was gonna get an ass whoopin or shot.. there was multiple times during this previous description to back down and would have probably resulted in him not getting shot. Personally though I'm glad he got shot.

He was a high school drop out that was a 2x convicted drug dealing felon. Punched and shot at officers before. Was high on pain killers and alcohol when confronted that night.

Lets just face it people. He was a ghetto thug piece of shit. We should be happy that he'll no longer be a leech on the tit of america. Good riddance to people like that. That cop should be praised. Think of all the welfare money and health care costs america won't have to pay now so a degenerate societal member can exist.
No longer will any of my tax dollars go towards enabling that piece of shit.

It's a shame the cop actually got convicted. He was a good cop with a flawless record and a family man.

How does the community react? Lets break some shit. Riot and break more shit. Then the family wants to sue the state and get rich off their dead brother. Absolute ridiculous.

He shot someone without probable cause, thats illegal period. Doesnt matter who, doesnt matter when, its never right to shoot an unarmed man like that. Oh and this criminal conviction was 2yrs prior, are people not allowed to change? He had a 4yr old daughter who will now grow up fatherless, how do we know he didnt become a family man after prison?

Your story is a little twisted too, they indeed did pat him down before shooting him, he had a knee to the neck,in handcuffs, and 2 officers on him already. SOO, lets praise an officer for that?

Cop didnt have a flawless record either

I agree...and I thought so when I first saw the video.

Guy made a bad/weird decision, and it had horrible consequences.

You guys are acting like they had a continual feud, and the cop finally got the guy by shooting him.

To me, "involuntary manslaughter" seems pretty appropriate for a accidental shooting.

No one got "murdered"...a guy died at the hands of another guy, on accident. A stupid, bad decision...that was an accident. You REALLY think that cop wanted to just kill someone? If so, you're a moron.

- Brian

this is pretty much where i stand.

[bb4_96]

He had a 4yr old daughter who will now grow up fatherless, how do we know he didnt become a family man after prison?


stereotypes.

And I don't whether the comment about the officers wife was really made or not but if it had been said to me in that situation I'd have probably shot him too.

[mrsuave]

maybe i have misread an article, but i remember reading that the cop was sentenced 5 to 14 years?

[fliprayzin240sx]

No...sentencing is not till August...

[!Zar!]

If dude wasn't doing shit to get police attention in the first place, none of this would have happened.

[kingkilburn]

The background of the guy who got shot is entirely irrelevant to the cop. His job is to detain an alleged criminal in the best possible health. He has no right or prerogative to judge.

[SochBAT]

http://koti.mbnet.fi/wiitanen/I-am-the-law.jpg

Hug me, love me, judge me, the only Man that helps is above me, holler!

[drift freaq]

The background of the guy who got shot is entirely irrelevant to the cop. His job is to detain an alleged criminal in the best possible health. He has no right or prerogative to judge.

I am not defending the cop but seriously, I do not think any of us can accurately speak about what the cop was thinking or reacting to at the time. Unless we ourselves have gone through a similar situation.

Kingkilburn how the fuck do you know the cop was judging the guy. LOL Seriously I bet if you were in a similar situation had a gun and felt threatened you might use it.

You would criticize a cop for shooting the guy . Yet if the guy went on a rampage and the cop did not shoot him ? You would probably criticize the cop for not shooting him.

I honestly think that you would judge the cop either way and you're talking about not judging people? That's exactly what your doing by your own statements.




Truth be told people are human and when pushed sometimes make bad decisions or rash decisions and actions.

fact is the cop did not get off he got a manslaughter charge which means he will do some time. Justice has been served.

[kingkilburn]

Cops don't get to live to the same standards as the rest of us. They have to be above it all and do their jobs the same for whoever they may be arresting or questioning.

[510-SR20DET]

Oscar spooked the cop by fought back. If he was laying low like his friends, nothing would had happened.
Lesson #1: NEVER spook cops, you will be the one who fucked and they probably will walk away.

[bb4_96]

Cops don't get to live to the same standards as the rest of us. They have to be above it all and do their jobs the same for whoever they may be arresting or questioning.

I don't think it fair or reasonable to assume that police officers on average or as a whole should be "above it all" (i think you meant with respect to withholding personal convictions in decision making on duty). I just don't think thats practical or to be expected. Cops are just regular people with badges(less training). Your logic paints a very rigid picture of the law and how it ought to work. I'm sure under that logic OJ would be in jail right now,but thats not the way reality is by any stretch of the imagination. Lets not confuse the way it should be with reality.

[Daniel.]

I don't think it fair or reasonable to assume that police officers on average or as a whole should be "above it all" (i think you meant with respect to withholding personal convictions in decision making on duty). I just don't think thats practical or to be expected. Cops are just regular people with badges(less training). Your logic paints a very rigid picture of the law and how it ought to work. I'm sure under that logic OJ would be in jail right now,but thats not the way reality is by any stretch of the imagination. Lets not confuse the way it should be with reality.

If we don't strive to assure our law enforcement is held to a higher standard of accountability then there would be anarchy.

You're one of those people who do something half assed and say "oh that looks good enough" and let it be.

[kingkilburn]

I don't think it fair or reasonable to assume that police officers on average or as a whole should be "above it all" (i think you meant with respect to withholding personal convictions in decision making on duty). I just don't think thats practical or to be expected. Cops are just regular people with badges(less training). Your logic paints a very rigid picture of the law and how it ought to work. I'm sure under that logic OJ would be in jail right now,but thats not the way reality is by any stretch of the imagination. Lets not confuse the way it should be with reality.

OJ is in jail right now but that's besides the point.

He would have been convicted the first time if the cops had properly done their jobs. Instead they were trying go beyond their jobs and do the prosecutors jobs as well. Planting evidence and falsifying reports in what should have been an open and shut case proves to me why the must strive to stay above it all.

[bb4_96]

I think both of you greatly misunderstood what I said. You said officers have to be above it all(that's hugely unrealistic). Now you say they should strive to be above it all. I entirely agree that they should strive to hold themselves to higher accountability but I acknowledge that overall cops are still just as flawed as everyone else.

And Daniel I imagine your one of those guys that sits all day trying to perfect something and at the end of day have accomplished nothing in the pursuit. Since we are attacking eachother personally now.

[vvtisupra]

you got 3 cops detaining him, 1 cop literally ontop of him with a knee in his back and he is face down. 1 there is no reason to taze him 2 shot him in the back.

Whoever believes what media has hyped up you have to wake up.

Watch the video.
YouTube - Court releases dramatic video of BART shooting (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2LDw5l_yMI)

Cop stands up for a second aims the gun and shoots. while the other cop is still on top of him.

YouTube - BART Shooting - UPDATED!!! NEW angle of the shooting!!!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKKQ-gzc_Yw)

[kingkilburn]

I think both of you greatly misunderstood what I said. You said officers have to be above it all(that's hugely unrealistic). Now you say they should strive to be above it all. I entirely agree that they should strive to hold themselves to higher accountability but I acknowledge that overall cops are still just as flawed as everyone else.

I still say they must be held to a higher standard no matter how unrealistic that standard may be. If I have no choice in giving up my own power to some authority figure that figure damn well better be doing his job right or I am taking my power back, and by force if necessary.

[ronmcdon]

Hey theoretically I agree they ought to be held to a higher standard as well.
If not them, then at least their superiors to whom they answer to (judges, police cheif, da, etc).
It's not unreasonable to ask that most (if not all) police set a good example.

However, in reality, typically we all know how well that goes.
It's no coincidence that there's the level of distrust many have for cops.
My biggest complaint are that cops/superiors covering up for the bad cops.
shouldnt be that way at all.

On the same token, it's unfair to write them off entirely.
You don't often hear the media praise when they get it right, only when its controversial.

[kingkilburn]

Which is why authority needs constant over site by those it holds authority over.

[Ghost240]

It is not unfair to expect a higher standard from those who are in charge of maintaining peace and justice. It is not unrealistic and too much to ask for. How can you be entrusted with powers and authority above a normal citizen and not expected to have a higher level of judgement and clairvoyance?

The officer fucked up, and he didn't do it intentionally, however, that doesn't mean that he shouldn't be appropriately charged and sentenced. By appropriately I mean the system should be harder on officers that have a clear sign of negligence in their application of force, and usage of authority. And in this case it would be force due to not knowing the difference between a handgun and a taser. If an officer, REGARDLESS of extenuating conditions i.e. the situation they are in or environment, should clearly know the difference between a handgun and a taser. If they can not they should not be out in the field and require extensive training.

To expect anything short of higher ethics, judgement and ability from the people that are entrusted with our safety is just naive and foolish.

[Daniel.]

I think both of you greatly misunderstood what I said.

I don't think it fair or reasonable to assume that police officers on average or as a whole should be "above it all" (i think you meant with respect to withholding personal convictions in decision making on duty). I just don't think thats practical or to be expected. Cops are just regular people with badges(less training). Your logic paints a very rigid picture of the law and how it ought to work. I'm sure under that logic OJ would be in jail right now,but thats not the way reality is by any stretch of the imagination. Lets not confuse the way it should be with reality.

There's no misunderstanding. What you said seems to be very clearly written. Now you want to back track.





It is not unfair to expect a higher standard from those who are in charge of maintaining peace and justice. It is not unrealistic and too much to ask for. How can you be entrusted with powers and authority above a normal citizen and not expected to have a higher level of judgement and clairvoyance?

The officer fucked up, and he didn't do it intentionally, however, that doesn't mean that he shouldn't be appropriately charged and sentenced. By appropriately I mean the system should be harder on officers that have a clear sign of negligence in their application of force, and usage of authority. And in this case it would be force due to not knowing the difference between a handgun and a taser. If an officer, REGARDLESS of extenuating conditions i.e. the situation they are in or environment, should clearly know the difference between a handgun and a taser. If they can not they should not be out in the field and require extensive training.

To expect anything short of higher ethics, judgement and ability from the people that are entrusted with our safety is just naive and foolish.

I completely agree.

[!Zar!]

I think people need to learn how to act.

Both Oscar Grant and Johannes Mehserle messed up due to their action. Just one lost their life because of it.

If Grant took a moment to think about his actions, he wouldn't be in handcuffs.

If Mehserle took a moment to think about his actions, he wouldn't have fired his gun.

Maybe this will teach people to rationalize what is going on next time they encounter a similar situation.

Not to mention, why didn't the cop just use pepper spray?

[singlecamslam]

I like how people are rioting and stealing shit because of this. But when an innocent child dies because of one of these stupid gangster drive by's nothing happens.

[Daniel.]

I like how people are rioting and stealing shit because of this. But when an innocent child dies because of one of these stupid gangster drive by's nothing happens.

You act like rioting in Oakland for any reason is a new development.

People in Oakland riot for no damn reason at all sometimes.

[I LUV MY S13]

I think people need to learn how to act.

Both Oscar Grant and Johannes Mehserle messed up due to their action. Just one lost their life because of it.

If Grant took a moment to think about his actions, he wouldn't be in handcuffs.

If Mehserle took a moment to think about his actions, he wouldn't have fired his gun.

Maybe this will teach people to rationalize what is going on next time they encounter a similar situation.

Not to mention, why didn't the cop just use pepper spray?


well said right here.

And on the pepper spray note, shit spreads. it would affect all officers aswell

[bb4_96]

There's no misunderstanding. What you said seems to be very clearly written. Now you want to back track.


Backtrack? Your right about it being clearly written. But you seem to believe I stand for anarchy and not striving for better from law enforcement. From how you replied you completely misunderstood what i wrote. I agree completely with what you said about striving for the best. All i was say to begin with was that people should distinguish between striving for the best and the reality.

Lets not confuse the way it should be with reality.

I retain that cops are people and yes by all means they must strive for the best.

[ericcastro]

...cops need to stop getting treated differently than anybody else.

Yes there were riots all last night in Oakland...
Thank god.
This shit is so under the rug, its frustraiting.

There was no reason for him to grab any weapon weither it be a baton, gun or a taser. MF'er was sitting on the ground with his hands behind his back with his head down



someone is already on a cuff. laying on his belly and got shot from behind? and involuntary manslaughter? thats a fucking execution!


But when an innocent child dies because of one of these stupid gangster drive by's nothing happens.
Actually, they neighbor hood gets together and retaliates by killing members that performed the first drive by.




whole thing is just really sad.
Hopefully Karma takes care of this in prison.

[OptionZero]

The BART officer had just had a kid and had not slept much in several days.

The victim had been recently released from prison (perhaps jail, i forget) and was already causing trouble on the bus.

Tragic outcome, but an accident. Not murder.

Oh yeah, most agencies keep firearm on one side and taser on the other, but it depends what-handed you are.

The videos do not show how the victim was acting prior to arrest. We are seduced by the prevalence of video into thinking that what we have to see is all there is to see.


As for the rioting. . . people are stupid. I assure you that 75% or mroe of the people "rioting" are simply looking for an excuse to go out and wreck mayhem. Whether you agree with the verdict or not, there's no reason to smash in other people's residences or businesses or set fire to public garbage cans.

If you wanted to make a difference, you'd join the police academy and be a good officer; you'd go to law school and be a criminal attorney; you'd join a community group and keep kids from growing up like the victim and finding himself in such a position.

No one that wants to make a difference thinks that difference will be made on the streets during a riot.

[kingkilburn]

NOTHING HE COULD HAVE DONE WOULD JUSTIFY THE OFFICERS ACTIONS!

The guy was already cuffed and being held down. There wasn't even a necessity to taze him.

[kingkilburn]

NOTHING HE COULD HAVE DONE WOULD JUSTIFY THE OFFICERS ACTIONS!

The guy was already cuffed and being held down. There wasn't even a necessity to taze him.

[cc4usmc]

If dude wasn't doing shit to get police attention in the first place, none of this would have happened.

Bingo.

I chuckled when I saw the vid of the crowd of people stealing shoes from the Foot Locker. I wonder how many people "rioting" were doing it for the right reason.

[OptionZero]

I like how people are rioting and stealing shit because of this. But when an innocent child dies because of one of these stupid gangster drive by's nothing happens.

Yeah, it's a genius idea. Let's protest the death of a trouble maker by causing a riot where law abiding citizens might get hurt.

[singlecamslam]

What i meant by my post was is that this rioting bullshit is retarded. People die everyfucking day, just because this fool got shot by a cop which totally looked like an accident just gives idiots an excuse to do stupid shit, not like they have a job or something. Fuck.

[cc4usmc]

What i meant by my post was is that this rioting bullshit is retarded. People die everyfucking day, just because this fool got shot by a cop which totally looked like an accident just gives idiots an excuse to do stupid shit, not like they have a job or something. Fuck.

They have to keep dragging the race issue out.

[OptionZero]

NOTHING HE COULD HAVE DONE WOULD JUSTIFY THE OFFICERS ACTIONS!

The guy was already cuffed and being held down. There wasn't even a necessity to taze him.

Nobody's arguing about "justification." The question is "explanation" - specifically, examining the state of mind of the BART officer at the time of his actions. What were his intentions and what was his mental capacity?


Murder is a killing done with malice. Malice is the general intent to kill or an actions taken in conscious disregard for human life. An example of conscious disregard for human life might be driving under the influence and killing someone after previously being convicted of driving under the influence.

Murder is in the first degree when done:
1) with deliberation, premeditation, or the specific intent to kill
or
2) lying in wait
or
3) certain other statutory triggers

Voluntary Manslaughter is a killing done without the intent to kill or the conscious disregard for human life.

I did not hear how the evidence came out at trial, but I could certainly see how a jury could believe that a sleep deprived officer could reach for the wrong weapon in the middle of dealing with unruly passengers.

[cc4usmc]

I heart you Option.

[TougeLove]

being an officer is a tough job too. if you've gone on a ride a long you realize that the next person you pull over could have two strikes and use deadly force on you. granted the guy was on his back but damn im sure the cop HONESTLY didnt shoot him with intent to kill on purpose or shoot him at all.

if you haven't rode with an officer, even if you hate the police, i suggest it. it really gives you both sides of the spectrum to think from. if you havent your opinion is like 90% of the uneducated, regurgitated b.s. being thrown around.

[kingkilburn]

It bugs me that there has been so much talk about how he was having a bad day and the other guy got what he had coming.

None of that is relevant.

His intent is relevant. The soul fact that he was reaching for his tazer(so he claims) shows intent to harm. Why did he need to harm the guy any further.

When tazing the guy would have been excessive force why is it only a slap on the wrist when he SHOOTS AND KILLS the guy?

[cc4usmc]

Since when is shooting an uncooperative individual with a taser considered deadly force?

[kingkilburn]

I said intent to harm.



I think tazer should be considered deadly force though. Enough people have been seriously injured or killed by them and you never know the health of the person you are tazing.

[cc4usmc]

I know, I was just making sure that you didn't consider the two the same.

Haha at that last bit of your post.

http://cbs13.com/local/oakland.arrest.traffic.2.1798944.html

Tasers work just fine. Don't be a jackass and put yourself in a position to get hit with one.

[OptionZero]

I said intent to harm.



I think tazer should be considered deadly force though. Enough people have been seriously injured or killed by them and you never know the health of the person you are tazing.

People aren't guilty of murder based on "intent to harm."

A taser is not deadly force.

The actions of the victim prior to arrest are most certainly relevant, as it enters the calculus of the officer's "intent."

This is not an officer that woke up, decided to walk to the park and shoot the first person he saw. Nor is this the result of an assassin's elaborate plan to poison his prey.

This is far less. This is a man who's psyche was tested by his family's affairs, then tested still further by a kid causing a ruckus in a crowded environment.

The officer has lost his job and will never work in law enforcement again.

Did he make a mistake? Yep.

Did he mean to make that mistake? Nope.

Did Oscar Grant deserve to be killed? Nope, probably not like that if he were.

Put yourself in an officers' position: New Years' Day, a raucus crowd on a BART station, subject is yellin' at you. If the dude makes one furtive movement, you are trained to react.

Go to police academy; after a year come back and tell us how right you were today in this thread.


Where's the sympathy for Johannes Mehserle's kid? Dad just lost his job because of the situation Grant put him in.

[TougeLove]

Where's the sympathy for Johannes Mehserle's kid? Dad just lost his job because of the situation Grant put him in.

If i owned a gun store i would hire him in a second!

[kingkilburn]

Go to police academy; after a year come back and tell us how right you were today in this thread.


I don't need to go to the academy to know that I am right. I know what the police academy entails and it wont sway my decision.


Where's the sympathy for Johannes Mehserle's kid? Dad just lost his job because of the situation Grant put him in.

Their dad lost his job because of his own actions. He made himself a cop and he is the one that pulled the trigger. I do feel bad for the kid but it's no one's fault but his fathers.

[cc4usmc]

I don't need to go to the academy to know that I am right. I know what the police academy entails and it wont sway my decision.


1: I hope for the sake of others that you're not a member of law enforcement.


Their dad lost his job because of his own actions. He made himself a cop and he is the one that pulled the trigger. I do feel bad for the kid but it's no one's fault but his fathers.


2: Oscar Grant ended up in a confrontation with BART due to his own actions.

[kingkilburn]

Oscar Grant ended up in a confrontation with BART due to his own actions.

I don't contest that but he should have ended up in jail not the morgue.

[cc4usmc]

I don't contest that but he should have ended up in jail not the morgue.

And I don't contest that. But to go as far as to say the BART officer meant to kill him or should be charged as if he meant to kill him isn't fair. You can't make it murder just because it was such a public incident and just because people can make a big fit out of it.

Edit: I really hate how this was turned into another white cops are racists incident. I think the family is handling this very poorly and a lot of people are taking advantage of the situation for their own cause. I'd like to see some of that $20 million dollars go to a group that teaches "targeted" people how to handle situations they might not think are fair. So far I haven't seen any good come out of this, and if it was me that was shot and killed, I'd not want to die for nothing.

[vvtisupra]

you can't justify what he did prior to being shot as a reason for him being shot. If those actions were justifiable to being shot he would have been shot earlier than when he was being subdue. The fact that he was subdued and then shot is the case. Not vise versa...so throw out your speculations because they would do the same in court.

[cc4usmc]

He didn't do anything that justified him being shot with a gun..with a tazer.. possibly. Dunno if your post is directed at me though.

[vvtisupra]

nah it was a general post. Because people were talking about him being high and drunk...

which is very subjective because it doesn't say his blood alcohol. And if he was drunk and high it would be very easy to subdue him. Just offer him some carne asada nachos

[510-SR20DET]

Who's on zilvia really care for Oscar? NONE
Who's on Zilvia mad at the cops because they have been giving them tickets, towed their cars or made them went through all kind of bs? ALL OF US.
Do you really want justice? Quit Zilvia and be a lawyer.

[DALAZ_68]

Who's on Zilvia mad at the cops because they have been giving them tickets, towed their cars or made them went through all kind of bs? ALL OF US.


um, im not, if i fuck up i fuck up, but i dont hate cops...little kids running around with there modded cars on the streets doing stupid shit or just driving around normally getting caught by the cops hate cops...

i dont wish to sound heartless here, but is there an actual video release

i keep hearing the argument that the cops himself had the WTF did i do face right after...is it true?

heaven forbid he made a mistake/error during a confrontation, did it cost someone his life? yes

could it have been a legitimate accident? yes...

[bb4_96]

There are several distinct trains of thought and arguments going on here:
Whether it was right by U.S. law for Oscar to die - no.
Whether "in the grand scheme of things" oscar deserved to be harmed(truly irrelevant) - imo yes(also irrelevant).
Whether the officers acted properly - IA is chomping at the bit to tear cops apart, and i'm not a cop so my opinion is useless. I can't comment because I wasn't there.
Whether the officer intended to harm oscar - Oh yeah
Whether the officer intended to kill Oscar - In front of the entire station with all his friends as witnesses, not likely.
Whether or not he should be held accountable for full magnitude of his actions - Yes.
Whether being a cop should buy lenience in sentencing - Yes, you can't hang the people charged with your protection out to dry(if you did no one would be a cop imo), UNLESS they are intending harm. I think intent(in eyes of jury) should always determine leniency in this type of situation. I say this because none of us are perfect. We all make mistakes(even at work) and the intent is what matters. If i make mistakes in my designs write it up in my performance report. But if I sabotage designs fire me. Intent is the difference and ought to dictate severity of sentencing.

[bb4_96]

i keep hearing the argument that the cops himself had the WTF did i do face right after...is it true?

heaven forbid he made a mistake/error during a confrontation, did it cost someone his life? yes

could it have been a legitimate accident? yes...

^Agreed. Mistakes will always happen. It was just a really horrible mistake and should be treated as a horrible mistake instead of an intentional homicide.

[!Zar!]

you can't justify what he did prior to being shot as a reason for him being shot. If those actions were justifiable to being shot he would have been shot earlier than when he was being subdue. The fact that he was subdued and then shot is the case. Not vise versa...so throw out your speculations because they would do the same in court.
Cause
Action

I've been in handcuffs before and managed not to get my ass shot. I just stayed calm and did what the officers told me to; keep in mind I was in handcuffs for doing nothing wrong.

I had the chance to act out and try to do stupid things because I knew I had no reason to be treated like that.

Did I carry those actions out? No. I didn't because I knew I would get my ass beat, and there was no need.

Maybe if people took better care of themselves and their own wellbeing, situations like that wouldn't need to come about.

It is a proven fact, that having low sleep affects mental capacity, as well as having something weighing on your mind affects your mental capacity too.

Add those things together with someone acting out, and that is what you get.

That definitely isn't an excuse. That's why he is going to pay for his actions. There are plenty of other officers that are and do go through the same things without getting themselves in the same situation.

[vvtisupra]

ass beating while acting out in handcuffs is okay. I watched a cop punch some dood cuz he wouldn't shut up and i cheered for the cop. Thats fine with me. Just don't shoot him.


Once the person is in cuffs there is no reason to shoot a person.

The cop had time to pull his gun out, aim and stand up prior to shooting the guy. who knows maybe he even had a safety on.

If i couldn't decided whether i had a taser in my hand or a pistol in my hand, i'd have my safety on

[!Zar!]

Ok, that's all fine and well.

But it doesn't change the fact about what happened.

The question is, was it on purpose or accident.

[kingkilburn]

It was an inexcusable accident that stemmed from his unnecessary brutal actions.

[ronmcdon]

I don't buy that it's an accident.
(if you did, then you ought agree with the INVOLUNTARY manslaughter charge)

I also don't think there was any planning/premeditation either.
More likely than not, I'm convinced the cop lost his temper at the moment & did something regrettable.
of course, the sleepless nights & stress of the job doesn't help.
lord knows my own lack of patience has gotten the better of me at times.
then again, I've never gone so far as to shoot ppl either.
Either way, it's inexcusable imo.

[OptionZero]

It was an inexcusable accident that stemmed from his unnecessary brutal actions.

That's pretty funny.

You know what we call an inexcusable accident resulting in death in legal terms?

Involuntary manslaughter.


Your bit about "unnecessary brutal actions" is nice filler.


You and many others are reacting based on emotion - how you feel based on what you think happened.

The law is not concerned with that - the verdict was a proper application of the law (defining voluntary manslaughter) to the facts (BART officer making a mistake with no intent to kill).

It's easy to react; it's hard to step back, listen and analyze, but that is what our system of justice requires, and that is why we get results that people think are improper. . .

But it's also why we don't decide guilt or innocent through internet comments.

[kingkilburn]

It's not like he accidentally hit some one with his car. He was brutalizing him when it wasn't necessary.

To me, his malicious intent is a game changer.

[singlecamslam]

Looked like he was resisting arrest and mouthing off. Cops deal with crack heads and all kinds of assholes, they should have the right to use a little force. The Involuntary manslaughter charge is just right, it was an accident, the family at least gets some money (Although it wont bring their son back).

[kingkilburn]

A little force, yes. Tazeing a man who is face down in hand cuffs while other cops are holding him down, no.

With the number of cops there they could have just carried the guy away no matter how unruly he was.

[ronmcdon]

That's pretty funny.

You know what we call an inexcusable accident resulting in death in legal terms?

Involuntary manslaughter.


Your bit about "unnecessary brutal actions" is nice filler.


You and many others are reacting based on emotion - how you feel based on what you think happened.

The law is not concerned with that - the verdict was a proper application of the law (defining voluntary manslaughter) to the facts (BART officer making a mistake with no intent to kill).

It's easy to react; it's hard to step back, listen and analyze, but that is what our system of justice requires, and that is why we get results that people think are improper. . .

But it's also why we don't decide guilt or innocent through internet comments.

Well it is important to separate discussion from a purely legal perspective,
vs. that of general ethics/after-thoughts.
Maybe the discussion fails to take that into account & comes across as a little disorganized,
but it's not bad considering we're not industry professionals.

realistically you can only expect so much out of a layman's discussion (including myself).
Don't see the harm though, as you say cases aren't determined by 'internet comments'

[OptionZero]

It's not like he accidentally hit some one with his car. He was brutalizing him when it wasn't necessary.

To me, his malicious intent is a game changer.

First you call it an accident.

Now you say there's malicious intent.

You sound pretty angry, but you also sound like a guy who has part of the story, filled in the gaps, and are justifying your anger. Which is fine, you can do whatever you want, this is the internet.

Officer wasn't acquitted. He was convicted. He will be suffering consequences.

But you're still angry at him.

You weren't at the trial. You aren't an officer. You aren't an attorney. You're not a witness. You said you don't need to go to police academy.

Yet you're convinced of . . . something, I guess.

Sorry if I sound patronizing, but it's frustrating to see people like you all worked up when they don't have the whole story and aren't particularly interested in being objective.

[kingkilburn]

Who's angry? lol




He did have malicious intent in my opinion.

The killing part is the accident but he did intend to hurt him beyond what was necessary to do his job.

EDIT:

I watched a few of the different eye witness videos when it happened. I know what occurred that night. What new information came out in the trial that might change what I saw in those videos?

[OptionZero]

Who's angry? lol

He did have malicious intent in my opinion.

The killing part is the accident but he did intend to hurt him beyond what was necessary to do his job.

Thank you for expressing your opinion as to the officer's state of mind and job performance.

[kingkilburn]

Thank you for expressing your opinion as to the officer's state of mind and job performance.

Why don't you tell me why he was tazeing the guy. Is it his job to electrocute detained suspects?



I feel like you want me to not be mad at the guy or maybe you think he should have gotten off. IDK. Your emotional response to this discussion baffles me.

[!Zar!]

Why don't you tell me why he was tazeing the guy. Is it his job to electrocute detained suspects?

Was Mr Grant acting in an orderly manner while he was in handcuffs, yes or no?

[kingkilburn]

He wasn't running away or attacking anybody. All they had to do was pick him up and take him to the paddy wagon. I would say that that is pretty routine police procedure.

EDIT:
In watching the video again it looks like every one was calm until they pulled him off the wall and started hitting him. So yes he was acting in an orderly manner.

[OptionZero]

He wasn't running away or attacking anybody. All they had to do was pick him up and take him to the paddy wagon. I would say that that is pretty routine police procedure.

EDIT:
In watching the video again it looks like every one was calm until they pulled him off the wall and started hitting him. So yes he was acting in an orderly manner.

If the officer believed that the suspect was reaching for a weapon or otherwise posing a threat, he is trained to react.

Whether the suspect was actually doing so is irrelevant. All that matters is how reasonable was the officer's belief that there was a threat.

You make it sound like people in the field have the benefit of re-watching a video; the reality couldn't be further. Snap decisions have to be made.

And again . . . the dude wasn't acquitted. He was convicted. You're still bitching about it.

[kingkilburn]

I'm very annoyed at the attitudes some people are having about it, and I'm not bitching you are.

How can someone who is already cuffed and patted down reach for a weapon when he is being held down by police officers?



Have you even watched the videos?

There is ZERO question as to what happened. No one thinks he was reaching for a weapon. He didn't resist until they started beating him.




Are you upset that he was convicted or what? You keep trying to show why he justified. I really don't get your position.

Maybe you should stop bitching and trying to have the last word in an argument you've already lost.

[!Zar!]

Who needs more evidence when there is youtube.com

[kingkilburn]

What evidence is there beyond the videos? All the eye witnesses are just telling you what is there for you to see for yourself.

If not for the videos the guy would never have been convicted.

[!Zar!]

You're right. You're the judge, the jury, and you have a youtube vid as evidence.

You win. The Grant's should've hired you.

[cc4usmc]

Now that this is settled, will you please cure cancer king?

[ronmcdon]

Who's angry? lol




He did have malicious intent in my opinion.

The killing part is the accident but he did intend to hurt him beyond what was necessary to do his job.

EDIT:

I watched a few of the different eye witness videos when it happened. I know what occurred that night. What new information came out in the trial that might change what I saw in those videos?

As I understand it, if malice is present, it makes the killing makes the act VOLUNTARY manslaughter.
It therefore cannot be an accident.
An accident means there likely isn't malice involved.
An accident means the killing was unintentional, and therefore the charge would be INVOLUNTARY manslaughter.

In legal terms, accidents and malice are mutually exclusive.
It's contradictory to mention that 'it was a malicious accident' or something like that.

Whether or not the cop thought the dude was an asshole and wanted to kick his ass, is entirely irrelevant from a legal perspective.

[kingkilburn]

While preforming a malicious act he accidentally killed him.

Doesn't the willful act of malice make it voluntary?

In my mind of varying degrees of right and wrong(not the US legal system) I see it as very near to murder as apposed to an accidental death like a car wreck.

[kingkilburn]

Now that this is settled, will you please cure cancer king?

I'll get right on that :tardrim:

[!Zar!]

It's funny how people choose key words to sway people towards their meaning.

[DALAZ_68]

It's funny how people choose key words to sway people towards their meaning.
yay politics...:hug: