So, who has the power?

[Brian]

I didn't see this yet. If it's already got a thread, sorry. Please delete this one.

The whole thing in Arizona. People that are here illegally. Questioning of them. etc. etc. etc.


What's the opinion of Zilvia folk on this whole thing?

Is it total bullshit to ask somebody about their citizenship? They must be racist, right? ... asking something like that.

Is it perfectly fine to ask somebody if they are allowed to be here? You might be here illegally. Why in the hell should I NOT be able to find this out?




How do you feel?

[oscarmagana]

well i think its a good thing that should be passed here in cali idk maybe its because of my personal background.. its not fair for those who wait patiently in their country until they receive there documents to come to the country legally. im all for it

[Brian]

I kind of wanted to add more to this, but I think it would be a great topic on it's own.

Basically it would be "The Politically Correct disaster."
A whole discussion on how the huge PC thing is going to lead to the downfall of the US.

[shiftdrift]

i think it's fair for sure. people shouldn't get into our country illegally. if you are here legally, then it shouldn't be a big deal to you to show proof to someone. anyways, illegal immigrants take our jobs, and just really don't help out our country at all.

[Flicktitty]

my buddy posted this on FB. thought it's pretty appropriate.

JUST SO I UNDERSTAND THIS... YOU PASS THE NORTH KOREAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET 12 YRS HARD LABOR, YOU PASS THE AFGHAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET SHOT. YOU PASS THE AMERICAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET A JOB, DRIVER'S LICENSE, ALLOWANCE FOR A PLACE TO LIVE, HEALTH CARE, EDUCATION, BILLIONS OF DOLLARS SPENT SO YOU CAN READ.........A DOCUMENT. WE CARRY PASSPORTS IN OTHER COUNTRIES OR FACE JAILTIME.



i think it is COMPLETE BULLSHIT. people are fighting against this. i think it should be like that in EVERY state.

[Otto347]

^^ Ditto....

[Touge Noob S13]

my buddy posted this on FB. thought it's pretty appropriate.

JUST SO I UNDERSTAND THIS... YOU PASS THE NORTH KOREAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET 12 YRS HARD LABOR, YOU PASS THE AFGHAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET SHOT. YOU PASS THE AMERICAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET A JOB, DRIVER'S LICENSE, ALLOWANCE FOR A PLACE TO LIVE, HEALTH CARE, EDUCATION, BILLIONS OF DOLLARS SPENT SO YOU CAN READ.........A DOCUMENT. WE CARRY PASSPORTS IN OTHER COUNTRIES OR FACE JAILTIME.



i think it is COMPLETE BULLSHIT. people are fighting against this. i think it should be like that in EVERY state.


You cross Mexico's southern border illegaly you will get shot as well.

[nismo619]

im all for it!

look at home depot at 7am in the morning. there are a grip of illegals waiting for work and the cops cant do anything about it cuz they cant prove that they are illegal. im not racist or anything my best friend is mexican but im tired of all the illegals taking work from american citizens, and talking shit on american, and how much better mexico is. if its so much better GET THE FUCK OUT ! sorry i got going but yeah i think cali should do it too but we have our head stuck so far up our ass i dont hink we will

[Brian]

It's early, but I'd have to imagine people's location will play a big part in their answer.



anyways, something I keep thinking about in relation to this topic is driving. All of us have to have a driver's license to drive, right? When we get pulled over, do you think twice about showing the officer your license to drive?

So, what if officers asked you for a license to be here? Same thing? Different?

[SUPERSTAR]

So many thoughts in my head on this topic.

But, I agree with the law. This law should have been in affect since day one right?

[Brian]

I think it's really easy to throw out a YES or NO answer... but when you really think about it, it may become more difficult.


Joto. lol

[Mister.E]

I'm honestly surprised to see all of these responses that are in agreement with the law. i thought a bunch of people here would be more on the side against it.

[Brian]

Give it time.
* I'm also surprised so far.

[Agamemnon]

I'm 50/50 on this.

I dont like the increase of power to law officals and I hate the violation of the 4th Amendment.

However, I have read some really scary stories about how bad it has gotten down there and the majority of citzens are infavor of this bill. They're are tired of the federal government sitting on their thumbs and not doing anything about the problem. It's a desperate bill mad by a desperate state.

[Brian]

What I found to be pretty annoying was on the news last night, they were in Phoenix (I think). They made sure to show footage of only one person FOR it who was.......... guess it........................ WHITE.
They made sure to show a bunch of people AGAINST it who were....................... guess this oneee........................ MEXICAN. The reporter was Mexican also.


damn Media. Using their power to show stories in a specific light. I'm sure there are plenty of white people against it and plenty of mexican people for it.

[shiftdrift]

I'm 50/50 on this.

I dont like the increase of power to law officals and I hate the violation of the 4th Amendment.

However, I have read some really scary stories about how bad it has gotten down there and the majority of citzens are infavor of this bill. They're are tired of the federal government sitting on their thumbs and not doing anything about the problem. It's a desperate bill mad by a desperate state.
the amendments are for AMERICANS. LEGAL AMERICANS

[roboticnissan]

I think its kinda crazy. But I really doubt cops are going to walk around the city and just ask random ppl if they are legal or not. It will most likly be if you get in trouble and have no license then you need to have a green card or whatever. But id say pass the bill. You can really tell at least where I live whether or not theses ppl are legal or not.

[Charles240]

I agree there is a huge problem with these illegals...the only HUGE problem is when they pass one thing whose to stop them passing the next...when the true balance of power shifts....

[yokotas13]

im down
illegals are a liability.
if they want to be here, they should do it legally like the others that have
and learn goddamn american too!

[SUPERSTAR]

I think it's really easy to throw out a YES or NO answer... but when you really think about it, it may become more difficult.


Joto. lol

Not so difficult, really.

If this law was in affect from day one, then things would be a lot different.

If the border patrol is not able to keep up. Then this law would have helped all along.

But to implement it officers now?? Hmmm.

Maybe they should just give Citizens the right to arrest anyone elegal here and see where that goes. :cops:

[drift freaq]

Mexico itself is a larger part of the problem. The country can't effectively police itself due to corruption. The system exploits the public for its own gain.

The country encourages illegals to cross the border so they can send American dollars back.

Its a Fact a big part of Mexico's GNP is American dollars sent back from relatives in the states.

Seriously my Grandparents had to come here legally through Ellis Island they had to earn and their citizenship and take tests for it. They did not just cross into the country and then demand to be allowed to stay because they were already here.

The mistake was made during the Clinton Administration. When Clinton gave amnesty and the right of citizenship to some 3 million illegals. We have been on a slippery slope ever since.

In the end it should be simple if you want to come here you follow the regular channels.

What they should do, is give the people that come to work in the fields and whatnot, a temporary seasonal work permit with the option to apply for citizenship.

The rest , well if your not coming to work seasonally and going back and your crossing illegally ? Go home.
Do it right or don't do it.

Oh and like someone else the Drug Cartels in Mexico are out of control and killing people in some states like it is going out of style. That has spread across the border into Arizona and Texas.

I just get tired of the valets that are Mexican telling me we should just give all the illegals amnesty because guess what? They are probably illegal themselves. LOL

[SUPERSTAR]

Oh great, information that has been talked about in 30 different threads already. ^^









The OP should be read again for those not posting what Brian is asking.

If you do not understand the questions, read again.

Quote them if you must so you can understand it and answer the questions.

For once it would be nice to stay on topic.

[aznpoopy]

not really a one or the other black and white question.

traditional US culture shuns this kind of "papers please" shit because its very much nazi-regime-ish and un-american. nobody likes the idea of a police state. small changes like this take us one step closer incrementally over time.

unfortunately traditional US political and social institutions may not be equipped to handle the illegal immigration problem. i am not blind... something like the AZ law may be 100% absolutely necessary. but i am a little worried about where it will lead in the long run.

[SUPERSTAR]

unfortunately traditional US political and social institutions may not be equipped to handle the illegal immigration problem. i am not blind... something like the AZ law may be 100% absolutely necessary. but i am a little worried about where it will lead in the long run.

These are my thoughts as well, it will have several positive and negative outcomes. But, I guess we will see them real soon and in a year or so.

If they did this to California, it would set us back even further financially.

[Agamemnon]

the amendments are for AMERICANS. LEGAL AMERICANS

Correct. However, you are innocent until proven guilty in this country. In order for law enforcement to ask for your ID, there had to be probable cause.

This new AZ bill makes it so state(not just federal) enfocement can ask for ID soley based on the fact that if you fit a profile of an illegal immegrant. Brown skin, not speaking english, hanging out in front of a Home Depot, etc... Thats the new probable cause.

[Brian]

And where is the problem? I don't get pissed when the police officer asks for my Drivers License.


Here it is sir. Thank you.

[theicecreamdan]

the amendments are for AMERICANS. LEGAL AMERICANS

I'm looking through the Constitution. I don't see anything about "AMERICANS," "LEGAL AMERICANS" or citizen or etc...

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

I don't believe that having brown skin gives probable cause to being an illegal.

Who here has lost a job to an illegal immigrant? If employers were held responsible and forced to pay anybody, even an illegal, then you aren't going to be losing any jobs to illegals.

[Z33dori]

that thing that pisses me off about illegals is that they still get medical .... but this can go far further than just Illegals to be honest

I dont think its fair for them to be protected by the laws that are for legal citizens, i dont think they should get all the bypasses that they get. The government needs to stop protecting them, they dont belong here. If they really wanted it then they would file for citizenship.

[Agamemnon]

I don't believe that having brown skin gives probable cause to being an illegal.
It does now.

[nismo619]

they arent going to ask for your papers just because your mexican or canadian. im sure the officers have a good enough educated guess to tell who is illegal. they most likely wont ask for your papers say if you were mexican and got pulled over an had your drivers license on you and spoke english apose to the guy who got pulled over for having too many people in the car and cant find his DL. or the guy in front of home depot of walks/jogs/runs when the officer sees him. those are the people who will be asked. this is a great law and its about fucking time, im tired of going to job sites full of illegals its bullshit

[ronmcdon]

I have no problem with this law.
(not endorsing or condemning)

Every time I visited Mexico in the past (when passports weren't required) & returned back to the US,
customs would ask me the same.
having grown up overseas & having an accent,
there are often presumptions but none that can't be cleared.
It's not a big deal at all to me & I can appreciate the caution.

they are just taking extra steps to enforce law that's probably already there.
(don't know the specifics in immigration & AZ state law so I'm speculating here).

For better or worse,
I'm also all for respecting the fact that diff states (and counties, cities, etc) are entitled to some degree of legal automony.
As long as the ppl vote it in, it isnt ruled unconsititutional by courts, then it should hold imo.
States shouldn't have to change their laws b/c ppl outside don't like it.

I think ppl are going to be split here not so much by heritage than by political outlook.
You will always get ppl who are generally pro illegal immigrants & those who are not.
Let's not make this into something childish please.

[BustedS13]

shit's fucked, brah. shit's fucked.

[revat619]

I don't have a problem with it. The fact is, if you're here legally, this shit shouldn't even bother you.

And as far as the whole "Well i dont wanna be hassled just because i'm mexican." thing, ummmm yeah.....as a black male in America, i have a hard time feeling sympathetic toward your plight. I've got "probable cause" as soon as i walk out my front door and or operate a motor vehicle....

[ESmorz]

Can't believe it's taken this long...

http://slackdog.happysumo.com/blogcrap/he-man038.jpg

[J3123MY]

Just great.... giving more power to the police.

[Aki180sx]

Just great.... giving more power to the police.


For a really good cause

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/23/us/23border.html
FOXNews.com - Illegal Immigrant Suspected in Murder of Arizona Rancher (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/03/30/illegal-immigrant-suspected-murder-arizona-rancher/)

this law is long overdue and I hope after this one passes others will follow.

My girlfriends parents came from Mexico legally and we were having a conversation about this a few days ago both her parents said they would gladly carry documentation proving they were now legal tax paying proud Americans if that's what it takes.

[imotion s14]

I'm against it on the grounds that it violates the 4A.

[rb25_s13*CHUKI]

Funny thing Is I see a bunch of mexico mexico. Did you guys not know that there Is ALOT of illegal Asian people here as well! Ooops did I say that! Please don't be offended ASian people! Lol Please be offended!

Probly some of them popping outta front clips n shit. Hide them Inside sr20's n rb's

I don't care about any of this just be EQUAL and not only talk about mexico. There Is plenty of other Illegals here as well.

I can only target asian people as well. just like all of you are targeting hispanic people.

If you REALLY want to get Into being in the wrong land. Then white people please leave. This land belonged to Native americans and three states were mexico. So um yea. Don't even get me started. This Is the last post I'll be posting In here.

[5pecialist]

Interesting that this thread is titled "who has the power", instead of asking who is right or wrong. Is this how people see things today, as getting their way rather than doing the right thing? I hope not :(

[HalveBlue]

Who has the power?

z33tH-JdPDg

I think America is the land of illusion. You're fooling yourself if you think this country can function without illegals.

This is a complex issue and knee jerk reactions like Arizona's Support Our Law Enforcement and Safe Neighborhoods Act do nothing to address the underlying fundamentals there of.

Honestly, I just believe there's a lot of (thinly veiled) xenophobia in America against (non-English speaking) brown people.

But their food sure tastes great though!

[Geno750]

I'm looking through the Constitution. I don't see anything about "AMERICANS," "LEGAL AMERICANS" or citizen or etc...

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

I don't believe that having brown skin gives probable cause to being an illegal.

Who here has lost a job to an illegal immigrant? If employers were held responsible and forced to pay anybody, even an illegal, then you aren't going to be losing any jobs to illegals.

Sounds like you haven't made it to the 14th amendment. "The people" as used in the constitution refers to citizens of the United States. Otherwise it would read "everyone" now wouldn't it?

I don't want to see amnesty given to these kinds of people, make them go through the legal channels. I'd even say recreate the DMZ between North and South Korea between Mexico and the US. That would at least slow the inflow down.
http://airepoweraviation.com/Files/image001.jpg

[BustedS13]

sNwPCrFKXBk

[rb25_s13*CHUKI]

YouTube - Public Enemy - Fight The Power (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PaoLy7PHwk)

[payne219]

white people are now a minority... im sitting in college class right now, everyone around me is speaking a language other than english.

WTF! every border state should have some sort of law like this

[Brian]

Interesting that this thread is titled "who has the power", instead of asking who is right or wrong. Is this how people see things today, as getting their way rather than doing the right thing? I hope not :(



Yes, who has the power? (also, come on.... people sue over the dumbest shit these days. Of course people do whatever they want, rather than doing the right thing. It's sad, but that's what happened.)

Does the US Law Enforcement have the power to ask the question, "Are you here legally"?

Do the people that are here illegally have the power to STOP the US Law Enforcement from asking such an ...... "insane" question?





Some of the arguments here are nothing more than a slippery slope. Slippery slope is not a valid argument. "oh if they do this, there will be no stop to what they do!" nope. false. bullshit.

[SRS BZNS]

This is going to sound really bad cause as I type of it all I can think of is th e nzai regime but why not deny non citizens certain rights. Also to start off with its not just mexicans that are hear illegally, there are people from all over the world here illegally taking oppurtunities away from people who live in the US and pay to do so.

Why not have hospitals deny assistance to people who can not prove they are a US citizen or citizen of another country with a right to be in the US. Sure there would be life or death instances where you wouldnt have time for that but once you found out deport that person.

Deny them the ability to get a drivers license, make stronger rules and punishments for people caught employing them. Deport them to somewhere awful. Stick a gun in their hand and dump them off in afghanastan or something, once word got out that you had to go to war for the country you snuck into in order to stay I bet they would stop

[SRS BZNS]

Yes, who has the power?

Does the US Law Enforcement have the power to ask the question, "Are you here legally"?

Do the people that are here illegally have the power to STOP the US Law Enforcement from asking such an ...... "insane" question?





Some of the arguments here are nothing more than a slippery slope. Slippery slope is not a valid argument.


From situations I have been and and witnessed the US law enforcement has the power to ask anything they want.

I comes down to you have the right to not answer them, at which point they can legally detain you under suspicion of BLAH BLAH BLAH until they get their answer.

As always you are innocent till proven guilty

[Brian]

Also, I completely understand that many different illegal people are here. I made this thread hoping people would understand that also.

It may be your mom, cousin, friend, mechanic, etc. that is here illegally. So, I hope people think about that in their answers.

[sirfallsalot243]

I think there should be a penalty to non-citizens who have a kid on American soil.

Yeah yeah, c'mon over and pop one out- they cant send you home then!

[IIIXziuR]

(I think Smorz bro's pic isn't working?)
BUT>>>>

7yeA7a0uS3A


But seriously I am going to have to agree with BustedS13 on this one.

[drift freaq]

I completely see that its not just Mexican. Though one cannot deny the problem with Mexico is larger than other countries because they share a border with us.

To ignore that fact or pay no attention to it is to be ignorant.

People can cry about the focus being on Mexicans/hispanics all they want. Fact is that is the easiest way to get in and its a lot harder for Asians to get in illegally, let alone get away with staying.

I am sorry but like a member above said being of a culture that has seen discrimination far worse than this. I have no sympathy for people who insist on not playing by the rules.

For the people that say we cannot run without illegals. Its plain and simple and I already pointed it out earlier. Give the illegals that come here to work i.e. field hands, food service workers etc.. they right to apply for a seasonal work permit. Have them adhere to requirements to stay and possibly gain resident alien status and then through proper channels citizenship.

Blanket amnesty is bullshit. Oh and for the people crying, I have Japanese friends who have lived here and want to stay and are willing to work. Though without a degree in a highly specialized field they have to go home. Japan is supposed to be on favored nation status and its easier for hispanics to come here and stay.

So anyone crying about Asians LOL . You have no idea how hard it is for them to come here and stay compared to hispanics.

As for who has the power question, it all depends on the states, Liberal democrats seem to have the power here in California and they actively seek out the hispanic vote to bolster that power. So the people who shout the loudest and have numbers in a particular state are more likely to have the power to influence law.

People who cry about Nazi style regime with paper checks and stringent stuff have no idea how bad that shit can be. We are far from it. Just talk to anyone who lived in the Eastern block under the Soviet regime to get an idea.

It is good to be diligent about rights. Though it also good to diligent about proper immigration.

60-70 years ago people of my heritage were considered a minority and suffered, indignity, discrimination, etc.....
They came in legally, they worked hard and today they are throughout corporate and political America and are considered white people. They were not when they came here.

Its plain and simple do the things the right way, become an American and be proud of it and things will change over time.
Crying about it not being fair now. Shit that has happened to every immigrant culture that has come to this country. Get in line.

[HalveBlue]

60-70 years ago people of my heritage were considered a minority and suffered, indignity, discrimination, etc.....
They came in legally, they worked hard and today they are throughout corporate and political America and are considered white people. They were not when they came here.

Its plain and simple do the things the right way, become an American and be proud of it and things will change over time.
Crying about it not being fair now. Shit that has happened to every immigrant culture that has come to this country. Get in line.

With all due respect, but I think you're leaving out some important information regarding your personal example.

If I remember correctly, your ancestors hailed from Italy. While it may not apply to specifically to your family's immigration history, most Italians that immigrated to the United States did so before there was any sort of quota system in place.

Basically, prior to the 1920's, with the exception of a small group of people ( criminals, the sick, the Chinese) anyone could immigrate to the United States.

In fact, there are a number of parallels between immigration patterns of Italians (and other ethnicities) and that of the current wave of immigrants, most of whom stem from Latin America (Mexico in particular). Most Italians that migrated to America did not speak English, weren't particularly educated, worked as manual labors, and tended to settle into ethnically homogeneous communities.

Fully 1/3 of Italians who immigrated to the United States returned to Italy. Many came specifically for a certain period of time to earn money to send/take back to Italy.

Chances are that, if the same laws that are in place today were in effect when your ancestors came to the US, you wouldn't be here today.

[ronmcdon]

Interesting that this thread is titled "who has the power", instead of asking who is right or wrong.:(

this is what came to mind before I clicked on the tread
(good subject, but thread title isn't very informative)

http://www.vam.ac.uk/images/image/24462-large.jpg

Lol, right or wrong is subject to interpretation.
Can say whatever you want really.

[I LUV MY S13]

im all for it!

look at home depot at 7am in the morning. there are a grip of illegals waiting for work and the cops cant do anything about it cuz they cant prove that they are illegal. im not racist or anything my best friend is mexican but im tired of all the illegals taking work from american citizens, and talking shit on american, and how much better mexico is. if its so much better GET THE FUCK OUT ! sorry i got going but yeah i think cali should do it too but we have our head stuck so far up our ass i dont hink we will


can you prove they're illegal?

[Brian]

Yeah, really....

[I LUV MY S13]

just askin cuz ive stood there before...

[ronmcdon]

With all due respect, but I think you're leaving out some important information regarding your personal example.

If I remember correctly, your ancestors hailed from Italy. While it may not apply to specifically to your family's immigration history, most Italians that immigrated to the United States did so before there was any sort of quota system in place.

Basically, prior to the 1920's, with the exception of a small group of people ( criminals, the sick, the Chinese) anyone could immigrate to the United States.

In fact, there are a number of parallels between immigration patterns of Italians (and other ethnicities) and that of the current wave of immigrants, most of whom stem from Latin America (Mexico in particular). Most Italians that migrated to America did not speak English, weren't particularly educated, worked as manual labors, and tended to settle into ethnically homogeneous communities.

Fully 1/3 of Italians who immigrated to the United States returned to Italy. Many came specifically for a certain period of time to earn money to send/take back to Italy.

Chances are that, if the same laws that are in place today were in effect when your ancestors came to the US, you wouldn't be here today.

Idk, I think US Immigration has always has it's preferences.
Like you mentioned, at the time the Chinese could not immigrate as easily.
One could argue the Chinese (bar perhaps Taiwanese) were always discrimated against in US immigration.
Even today, some groups have it much easier than others.
US immigration has never been fair.

I see no reason why ppl wouldn't make the best of situations to their advantage.
Likewise, if the US sets things up such as it is much easier to come here illegally than legally, they probably will.
(I would do the same if I were in their shoes)

It's probably not all that different with other countries' immigration policies.

[Gnnr]

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -Benjamin Franklin

I am AGAINST giving up our Freedom and Civil Liberties.

I am AGAINST more government control

I am AGAINST big brother monitoring everything we do.

I am AGAINST losing our privacy for security. (Hello Patriot Act)

I am AGAINST profiling for any reason.

I don't agree with cops pulling over black people because they think they'll be able to get them for drug charges.

I don't agree with stopping people of Middle-Eastern decent at Airports because of their ethnicity.

I don't agree with stopping Hispanics because you think they are Illegal.

I don't agree with stopping a young college student because he looks like he might be drinking alcohol even though its covered in a brown paper bag.

Probable cause is the biggest fucking loophole cops use for doing wrong.

I dont think its fair for them to be protected by the laws that are for legal citizens

THE LAWS ARE FOR EVERYONE. If an illegal immigrant gets raped, the law will protect them. We shouldn't have exclusive laws for specific races of the population, we did away with Jim Crowe (and other such laws) a long time ago.

Its Amazing how much History repeats itself. It happened against the Native Americans in this country, Blacks, Japanese, Germans, Chinese...it goes on and on. When will the Government learn? Politicians need to stop trying to veil their racism through carefully worded laws.

they arent going to ask for your papers just because your mexican or canadian. im sure the officers have a good enough educated guess to tell who is illegal. they most likely wont ask for your papers say if you were mexican and got pulled over an had your drivers license on you and spoke english apose to the guy who got pulled over for having too many people in the car and cant find his DL. or the guy in front of home depot of walks/jogs/runs when the officer sees him. those are the people who will be asked. this is a great law and its about fucking time, im tired of going to job sites full of illegals its bullshit

Everything you mentioned are STEREOTYPES and RACIAL PROFILING.

Its funny that the United States fucked Mexico over many times throughout History to put their country in the miserable state it is in, and then we complain about how their citizens are leaving their shitty country that the US helped make a shitty place. DUH. If we wouldn't have done those things Mexico would be like Canada and there wouldn't not be mass illegal border crossings.

[drift freaq]

With all due respect, but I think you're leaving out some important information regarding your personal example.

If I remember correctly, your ancestors hailed from Italy. While it may not apply to specifically to your family's immigration history, most Italians that immigrated to the United States did so before there was any sort of quota system in place.

Basically, prior to the 1920's, with the exception of a small group of people ( criminals, the sick, the Chinese) anyone could immigrate to the United States.

In fact, there are a number of parallels between immigration patterns of Italians (and other ethnicities) and that of the current wave of immigrants, most of whom stem from Latin America (Mexico in particular). Most Italians that migrated to America did not speak English, weren't particularly educated, worked as manual labors, and tended to settle into ethnically homogeneous communities.

Fully 1/3 of Italians who immigrated to the United States returned to Italy. Many came specifically for a certain period of time to earn money to send/take back to Italy.

Chances are that, if the same laws that are in place today were in effect when your ancestors came to the US, you wouldn't be here today.


ah excuse me there was a quota system, it was in fact instigated in 1924 and was responsible for sending Italians back to Italy. It instigated a situation of where there were only 4,000 per year allowed.

Oh and yes during the 1880's Italians did emigrate in large numbers and some did go back and some did send money back. Though in the end a majority came and stayed. during WW1 there was very little immigration and after it the quota system was put into place.

Though in the 1880's the population of the U.S. and labor situation was quite different than it is today.

They also taught their children English not Italian as English was the language of their adopted country. They also loved their adopted country and stood behind it in WWII.

Indeed we did have our own neighborhoods due to discrimination and such but we did assimilate into American Society. In fact many areas that were formally Italian are not today because of that assimilation.
I do not speak Italian because it was not the language of the country I was born in. Does it take away from my heritage or celebrating it? No. Though I am American first of Italian heritage second.



That pretty much throws a blanket on your claim I would not have been here. You have no idea of my own family history or when my Grandparents migrated.

For you to claim that if today's current practically open door policy with hispanic immigrants is worse than in the turn of the century 1900's begs to ask if you really studied the situation back then.

I

[Brian]

Gnnr - So do you think it's perfectly fine for illegal immigrants to be living here and taking advantage of our country? If so, end of discussion.

If not, what do we do?


Also, you said we shouldn't have laws for specific races of people here. Why did this come up? Did somebody here say that we should?

[HalveBlue]

No offense, but your reading comprehension sucks.

ah excuse me there was a quota system, it was in fact instigated in 1924 and was responsible for sending Italians back to Italy. It instigated a situation of where there were only 4,000 per year allowed.

"Basically, prior to the 1920's, with the exception of a small group of people ( criminals, the sick, the Chinese) anyone could immigrate to the United States."

The majority of Italians immigrated between 1880 and 1920, and thus were not subject to quotas.

Oh and yes during the 1880's Italians did emigrate in large numbers and some did go back and some did send money back. Though in the end a majority came and stayed. during WW1 there was very little immigration and after it the quota system was put into place.

Though in the 1880's the population of the U.S. and labor situation was quite different than it is today. For you to draw parallels between then and today shows you need to study more of your American History.

Yeah, obviously America and the world are different today than they were over a hundred years ago. Couldn't agree more with you there.

Nevertheless, there are parallels between what's happening with immigrants from Latin America today and what was happening with Italian immigrants then.

They also taught their children English not Italian as English was the language of their adopted country. They also loved their adopted country and stood behind it in WWII.

Again, I'm not denying that. But, I find it interesting, in juxtaposition to your earlier denial of parallels between these two waves of immigration, that applies to the children of most (il)legal immigrants today. I served with plenty of illegal immigrants, or children of illegal immigrants when I was in the Army.

Also, the number of second generation immigrants that don't speak English is minuscule. This is a result of the integration and public education system.

Indeed we did have our own neighborhoods due to discrimination and such but we did assimilate into American Society. In fact many areas that were formally Italian are not today because of that assimilation.
I do not speak Italian because it was not the language of the country I was born in. Does it take away from my heritage or celebrating it? No. Though I am American first of Italian heritage second.

I don't see how any of that does not apply to today's immigrants and their children.


That pretty much throws a blanket on your claim I would not have been here. You have no idea of my own family history or when my Grandparents migrated.

I

Actually, no, it doesn't.

Again, learn to read better:

"If I remember correctly, your ancestors hailed from Italy. While it may not apply to specifically to your family's immigration history, most Italians that immigrated to the United States did so before there was any sort of quota system in place."


For you to claim that if today's current practically open door policy with hispanic immigrants is worse than in the turn of the century 1900's is shear ignorance of facts on your part.

What?

I never claimed that. Any of that.

[Gnnr]

Gnnr - So do you think it's perfectly fine for illegal immigrants to be living here and taking advantage of our country? If so, end of discussion.

I don't agree with this country's double standard. Its perfectly fine for us to screw their country and not expect to have this illegal immigration problem. Its perfectly fine for us to force ourselves into existence on the Native Americans that lived here and then again by taking up what belonged to the Mexicans that lived here and we expect not to have the problems we are having. Look into the US/Mexican history, this "recent" problem is not so recent.

Lets not act like America is the victim here.

[Brian]

I don't agree with this country's double standard. Its perfectly fine for us to screw their country and not expect to have this illegal immigration problem. Its perfectly fine for us to force ourselves into existence on the Native Americans that lived here and then again by taking up what belonged to the Mexicans that lived here and we expect not to have the problems we are having. Look into the US/Mexican history, this "recent" problem is not so recent.

Lets not act like America is the victim here.


Oh cool cool. Not even an answer to the question AT ALL.

Good work out there.

[Gnnr]

Oh cool cool. Not even an answer to the question AT ALL.

Good work out there.


The answer is NO.

But it does not mean that the ends justify the means. When a better solution is proposed I will vote for it.

And to be sure, in what ways do you feel America is being taken advantage of? How is it different from America's past where it took advantage of Mexico?

[Brian]

Hello this is America. Would you like to become a citizen?
Yes / No
*please circle one.

[Gnnr]

Hello this is America. Would you like to become a citizen?
Yes / No
*please circle one.

Hello I am America. I will be taking half your house, and what remains of your house I will pillage and plunder of its resources. Oh? You want to come back to this half of what was your house? Sorry, that's gonna cost you. America. Fuck Yeah.

[ronmcdon]

If you're so absorbed in ethics (which I am not), two wrongs don't make a right.

I applaud Brian for ignoring the irrelevant & staying on topic.

[I LUV MY S13]

Hello this is America. Would you like to become a citizen?
Yes / No
*please circle one.


cuz its that easy right..?

[Brian]

cuz its that easy right..?

No, it's not that easy, but it's a start.

[Brian]

If you're so absorbed in ethics (which I am not), two wrongs don't make a right.

I applaud Brian for ignoring the irrelevant & staying on topic.

Yeah, I'm trying. :fruit:

[theicecreamdan]

And where is the problem? I don't get pissed when the police officer asks for my Drivers License.


Here it is sir. Thank you.

Driving isn't a right.

I don't care much about the illegals that get caught and sent back as a consequence of this law. But its not right that people here legally have to live here under the suspicion of being criminals all the time.

[revat619]

But its not right that people here legally have to live here under the suspicion of being criminals all the time.

Welcome to Black America since forever.

But yes, you do have a point.

[drift freaq]

No offense, but your reading comprehension sucks.



"Basically, prior to the 1920's, with the exception of a small group of people ( criminals, the sick, the Chinese) anyone could immigrate to the United States."

The majority of Italians immigrated between 1880 and 1920, and thus were not subject to quotas.



Yeah, obviously America and the world are different today than they were over a hundred years ago. Couldn't agree more with you there.

Nevertheless, there are parallels between what's happening with immigrants from Latin America today and what was happening with Italian immigrants then.



Again, I'm not denying that. But, I find it interesting, in juxtaposition to your earlier denial of parallels between these two waves of immigration, that applies to the children of most (il)legal immigrants today. I served with plenty of illegal immigrants, or children of illegal immigrants when I was in the Army.

Also, the number of second generation immigrants that don't speak English is minuscule. This is a result of the integration and public education system.



I don't see how any of that does not apply to today's immigrants and their children.




Actually, no, it doesn't.

Again, learn to read better:

"If I remember correctly, your ancestors hailed from Italy. While it may not apply to specifically to your family's immigration history, most Italians that immigrated to the United States did so before there was any sort of quota system in place."




What?

I never claimed that. Any of that.

I brushed over your original statement after first reading it and formulating my response. Why because it bothered me. It bothered me because you had stated supposed facts that were not exactly correct.

So I made mistake brushing over one of your statements in the heat of the moment.

Oh and stating "no offense" but then telling me my reading comprehension sucks. That was offensive couched by your own statement of no offense. If you did intend to offend you would not have made the statement to begin with.

Maybe you should get to know me as a person before making a statement like that as I am quite adept at reading comprehension. LOL

As far as your claim to parallels,

they are not quite the same like I stated. I think you are trying to find reasons to justify a position opposite of mine.

Fact is we are talking about illegal immigration not legal immigration.

I stated what I did as an example of the attitude of the Italian immigrants based off your own statements.

I do not recall making earlier denials of parallels. In fact I never made a statement about until you brought it up. Stop trying to say I did.

I made statements about Italians immigrating here legally and nothing more. That is truth. Though there were no quota's for a certain period, you still could not enter the country illegally.
That has not changed. While there may have been some illegals in fact the numbers were not nearly the number we are talking of today.

You came out and tried to draw the parallels. Not I.

You seem to be trying to direct something at me as to call me a hypocrite or to say I am ignoring past. Past is past. Today things are not the same.


If you think they are I say you have possibly not studied up on the U.S. in those times. Things were vastly different.

As for DTC trying to claim I was going off topic to begin with?

All of this pertains to who has the power because the illegals do go out and protest and protest draws attention. Thereby influencing politics which can influence power.

If you think they are I say you have possibly not studied up on the U.S. in those times. Things were vastly different.

As for DTC trying to claim I was going off topic to begin with?

All of this pertains to who has the power because the illegals do go out and protest and protest draws attention. Thereby influencing politics which can influence power.




Mexico's policies affect that power indirectly as well.

So basically my original statement did have bearing on the OP.

I really have nothing more to say on this part of the subject because you will hold your opinion and I will hold mine.

[Brian]

Driving isn't a right.

I don't care much about the illegals that get caught and sent back as a consequence of this law. But its not right that people here legally have to live here under the suspicion of being criminals all the time.

Nor is living in the USA a right. :rimshot:



Of course it isn't right that legal citizens have to live under suspicion of being criminals all the time. I don't think anybody would disagree with you. Criminals can be any color, by the way. So, are you thinking that all Mexican people will be under suspicion of being here illegally and will be treated differently?

[drift freaq]

Nor is living in the USA a right. :rimshot:



Of course it isn't right that legal citizens have to live under suspicion of being criminals all the time. I don't think anybody would disagree with you. Criminals can be any color, by the way. So, are you thinking that all Mexican people will be under suspicion of being here illegally and will be treated differently?

Actually Brian, it is a right for Citizens who obey the law.

I do not think all people of Mexican heritage would be under suspicion.

Unfortunately there are bad Apples in all organizations who might fall on profiling.

The matter is not easy to define.As to who has the power the vast amounts of possible illegals? Or the Government installing laws to control it? It remains to be seen.

Honestly Brian did you not start this topic knowing full well, it would probably cause a shit storm? LOL

[Brian]

Dave, in your first sentence, what are you referring to?


And yes, I knew it would cause a shit storm. It's a shit storm topic in the real world, it's going to be a REAL shit storm on Zilvia.

[Agamemnon]

Hello I am America. I will be taking half your house, and what remains of your house I will pillage and plunder of its resources. Oh? You want to come back to this half of what was your house? Sorry, that's gonna cost you. America. Fuck Yeah.

Examples please.

[J3123MY]

http://airepoweraviation.com/Files/image001.jpg

LOL. Is this guy really serious? Is this shit photo shopped?

I like your stands Gnnr.

[ncbox]

^ That guy holding the sign best be trollin'.

[I LUV MY S13]

people like that need to get thrown back in mexico....

[SUPERSTAR]

New Machete Red Band Trailer for Cinco de Mayo - MovieWeb (http://www.movieweb.com/news/NEKmlPKPphvjOL)

Here ya go.

[Walperstyle]

I'm all for helping out people in Distress, but up here in Canada its the same thing. Nobody should be here if they don't pay taxes. If more people paid taxes, there would be better schools and services for the public.

I know a woman from Uganda whom came to Canada. After getting her paperwork and fighting for her family to come over, she now wants to do military service to 'pay Canada back for helping her get out of Uganda'.

We need more people like that.


I think what some people here are trying to say is it would be nice to see people 'earn' their way in society rather then 'expecting' it. America Ows its war vets first. Starting with those old guys from Nam that can't afford medical. Just watch the de-pussification video in this forum.

[SHINCHU]

I think it's really easy to throw out a YES or NO answer... but when you really think about it, it may become more difficult.


yeah pretty much where i am right now.
generations ago my family did it the right way. now loads of people (not just mexicans) are coming here the wrong way. maybe because their lives depended on it (refugees? famine? etc.). would i rather see people dead than here illegally? no that's not right. but damn they have to understand they cant keep getting a free lunch here. how do we enforce that? hell if i know.

this country really is getting itself in a jam. nobody said being awesome was easy?
:rolleyes:

[shiftdrift]

New Machete Red Band Trailer for Cinco de Mayo - MovieWeb (http://www.movieweb.com/news/NEKmlPKPphvjOL)

Here ya go.

damn, that's quite a line up, looks to be entertaining in the dumbest way.

[theicecreamdan]

Criminals can be any color, by the way. So, are you thinking that all Mexican people will be under suspicion of being here illegally and will be treated differently?

What are the standards for whether or not its ok to ask people to prove that they are here legally?

[Brian]

Are you asking me for a fact or are you asking me my opinion on it?

I would have ZERO problems being asked if I was here legally. Give me a paper, card, whatever to prove it. I'll carry it at all times.

Again, I'll compare it to the Driver's License. I'm pretty sure I am required to keep that little card on me when I drive my car. Does it make me sad? mad? Nope. Why the F would it? If I get pulled over, I give them my license to drive. Is that too difficult?

People get profiled. I've got profiled by the car I drive. Guess what? Deal with it.

[Karlitos]

Being part of an immigrant family, most of my family works in some sort of physical labor type job, and I will be the first in my family to go to a four year university. I can say this law has a good objective to fix the immigration problem- cause lets face it, its a problem- but it's not the right way to fix it. Racial profiling is not a solution and thats what this law is. Being from San Diego I've seen and been in the Home Depot in the mornings and some are illegals others aren't. The police doesn't do anything 'cause in CA they can't, but I've always wondered why the BP doesn't go to Home Depot's. That has some sort of probable cause for the fed but they don't do crap. It's not right for people to get pulled over because they're mexican, black or any other race, and it's been in the news that the police have a 'plan' to know whose mexican. I don't remember exactly but it went something like this "They wear sandals (chanclas), don't talk english, wear straw hats to protect from the sun in labor jobs and look dirty" Please don't tell me thats not racial profiling. Yes its the same for black people and do they like it, no. Its the same for middle eastern's and do they like it? No. Why should we? We just stand up for whats right, not saying african americans haven't done anything 'cause they have, but its just in a bigger scale now and blacks aren't as profiled nowadays as they were before.

There have been many misconceptions posted, i agree people here illegally should not, but there's people to do that job and the state police isn't them. People should stop coming here illegally but they come here for a reason. Most come to live a better life and do make money for their families back home(any country) There's just a few bad people that make a wrong decision and make headlines everywhere when the media finds out they are illegals. Most of the massacres in the US have been by citizens, most crimes nowadays are by citizens of a different nationality, but they are american, legally.

And the case of jobs, mexicans do create a large part of the economy, legal or not. How many white people are gonna burn themselves out in the sun by picking fruits or working in construction? Not even legal mexicans will because they're legalilty already puts them at a better position for a better job.

Lets compare the situation to cars and licenses like many of you have. This law is like saying just because you have a 240 you have an SR20. But what if you dont? You're trying to get to work and a cop pulls you over to pop your hood. They check that you dont have an SR, now your late to work and loose your job. All because the probable cause was owning a 240. Being mexican shouldn't be a "probable cause" and thats what this law is doing. I haven't read the law but I've done my research trying to stay away from yellow journalism .

well i think its a good thing that should be passed here in cali idk maybe its because of my personal background.. its not fair for those who wait patiently in their country until they receive there documents to come to the country legally. im all for it
Yea its not. but the US is not giving out any visas as of now.

i think it's fair for sure. people shouldn't get into our country illegally. if you are here legally, then it shouldn't be a big deal to you to show proof to someone. anyways, illegal immigrants take our jobs, and just really don't help out our country at all.
like i said before, now its not a big deal until it causes you to continually miss out because of time wasted by being mexican.

my buddy posted this on FB. thought it's pretty appropriate.

JUST SO I UNDERSTAND THIS... YOU PASS THE NORTH KOREAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET 12 YRS HARD LABOR, YOU PASS THE AFGHAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET SHOT. YOU PASS THE AMERICAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET A JOB, DRIVER'S LICENSE, ALLOWANCE FOR A PLACE TO LIVE, HEALTH CARE, EDUCATION, BILLIONS OF DOLLARS SPENT SO YOU CAN READ.........A DOCUMENT. WE CARRY PASSPORTS IN OTHER COUNTRIES OR FACE JAILTIME.



i think it is COMPLETE BULLSHIT. people are fighting against this. i think it should be like that in EVERY state.
This is a modern country where everyone try's to act civilized. Those other countries aren't to well of are they?? Nor are they first world countries with a well organized government. That only applies to when you get caught.
And what happens if you don't get caught cause the people living theyre life here illegaly and they cant get that. Yes you get up to a HS education and pay for the rest 'cause you dont qualify for fafsa. As far i know you cant get a license if your illegal. And its not billions into going to read but it is money going to schools that would be getting money anyways.

im all for it!

look at home depot at 7am in the morning. there are a grip of illegals waiting for work and the cops cant do anything about it cuz they cant prove that they are illegal. im not racist or anything my best friend is mexican but im tired of all the illegals taking work from american citizens, and talking shit on american, and how much better mexico is. if its so much better GET THE FUCK OUT ! sorry i got going but yeah i think cali should do it too but we have our head stuck so far up our ass i dont hink we will
like stated earlier how do you know they're all illegal? Im guessing your best friend doesn't speak spanish or has no idea whats going on in mexico, and i dont mean just the murders and stuff but whats going on politically and more in depth. None of the mexicans i know say mexico is better and if they do they dont mean its better to be living there just they like the more freedom there is towards certain things.

It's early, but I'd have to imagine people's location will play a big part in their answer.



anyways, something I keep thinking about in relation to this topic is driving. All of us have to have a driver's license to drive, right? When we get pulled over, do you think twice about showing the officer your license to drive?

So, what if officers asked you for a license to be here? Same thing? Different? What if you got pulled over JUST to check if you had a license. If you weren't doing anything wrong and don't have a license then your screwed if you did have a license you would feel harassed and as if that was just a waste of time of the police.

I think its kinda crazy. But I really doubt cops are going to walk around the city and just ask random ppl if they are legal or not. It will most likly be if you get in trouble and have no license then you need to have a green card or whatever. But id say pass the bill. You can really tell at least where I live whether or not theses ppl are legal or not.
they might or they might not, but this law gives them the power to do so. can you really tell whose legal? how??

im down
illegals are a liability.
if they want to be here, they should do it legally like the others that have
and learn goddamn american too!
they are but this law isnt a solution. Now taxes will have to be spent in lawyers for court, because they are tried in a short session since they are proven guilty and can ask for a lawyer which dont. Taxes will go to maintaing them in jail since they stay there for a couple of days till deported for which tax payers pay for they're gas. At least before they payed for their own gas. And if a legal gets arrested and sues that will be a BIG cause and MUCH more money being spent.

I'll contribute more later on.

[240XTC]

My friends and I had a discussion about this a couple days ago... It then re-routed into the topic of the Alien parents whos children are born in the states......

To the subject at hand. Its a simple case of abuse on a good thing. Now regulations will be put into effect. All in hopes to scrounge up every penny. In this case, couple billions of tax payer dollar that are used to educate, medicate, and incarcerate these illegal individuals.

The power is in the common sense end result of saving the state money.

[I LUV MY S13]

New Machete Red Band Trailer for Cinco de Mayo - MovieWeb (http://www.movieweb.com/news/NEKmlPKPphvjOL)

Here ya go.

horrible trailer, good list of actors though

yeah pretty much where i am right now.
generations ago my family did it the right way. now loads of people (not just mexicans) are coming here the wrong way. maybe because their lives depended on it (refugees? famine? etc.). would i rather see people dead than here illegally? no that's not right. but damn they have to understand they cant keep getting a free lunch here. how do we enforce that? hell if i know.

this country really is getting itself in a jam. nobody said being awesome was easy?
:rolleyes:


i think legalization needs to be a bit easier...or atleast a faster process

[Matej]

The whole immigration process in the US is pretty silly.

Educated people from first and second world countries do not move here anymore because they have better opportunities in their home countries. Even if they wanted to move here, they would have to jump through so many bureaucratic hoops that is is nowhere near worth it to them. And coming here illegally is definitely not worth it to them at all, that is not even an option. So they stay living happily in their home countries. America is not luring in engineers, scientists, and other great minds from all over the world as it once used to.

Yet 'refugees' seem to be welcomed with open arms. Pretty much all it takes to be let into the US is to be from some country that Americans assume evil/poor/crappy, and to make up some story about how your native government is tyrannical or whatever, and make sure to make it sound a lot worse than it really is. Middle Easterners are pouring in. Indians are coming. And America loves to turn a blind eye to illegal immigrants. Thanks to sophisticated networks and connections, most illegal immigrants have it easier here than legal immigrants, easier even than many regular citizens. Plus the government itself seems to be lending a helping hand.

And the entire US citizenship process is a joke. Especially compared to other countries. I do not even want to get into that.

[theicecreamdan]

Arizona bill targeting ethnic studies signed into law - latimes.com (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-ethnic-studies-20100512,0,5313151.story?track=rss)

Maybe the slippery slope arguments have some validity in this case.

[ronmcdon]

That's another can worms.
They are talking about cancelling ethnic studies classes.
(Chicano studies specifically?)

I won't disagree with AZ policy there specifically.
I'm skeptical any Liberal Arts classes have any practical value whatsoever.

[Brian]

I think they decided to only mention Chicano classes to add more fuel to the fire. (***LA Times, by the way, see me following thought down below.)

I don't necessarily agree with that new decision, but I kind of see why they did it... sort of. We're supposed to be moving away from racism... but I feel like this country is making racism more popular quite frankly.





Anyways, what is the shit about Los Angeles not doing any business with Arizona? Boycotting Arizona businss? I really hate a lot of people right now for being so stupid. It's unreal.

I am truly amazed at how much shit there is right now to SUPPORT illegal immigrants.
It's like upside down world right now. WTF???


Do people even think at all anymore? It's no wonder the rest of the world is laughing their asses off at the USA right now.

[revat619]

^^^^

EXACTLY.

This country is so retarded sometimes. The bottom line is, as a legal and tax paying citizen, i shouldn't have to pay for an illegal's shit. PERIOD. No matter how "deserving" they feel they are.

[Brian]

I've been thinking about this a lot and I just cannot figure out WHY there seems to be so much support. I can't figure it out.

[ronmcdon]

Why do you think the US is making racism more popular?

About the forementioned classes
My co-worker, who is 3rd gen Mexican, actually took a Chicano studies class recently @ the local city college.
Most of the stuff they taught was more or less was just bashing the US.
It was just really one sided, bias arguments.
It was all criticism and pretty much no praise.
Garbage arguments like they stole from the Mexican government and did terrible things.
No doubt the US did a lot of wrong, but what nation's government did not?

I don't see any value in a class like that.
It just encourages resentment, imo.
My co-worker is kinda pissed that he feels the curriculum is fostering such hostility & being so ungrateful.
I would have to agree, esp given how kids can be so impressionable.

It probably is just an isolated incident.
However, I can appreciate what AZ is trying to do, if they're having the same situation.

Even if you're interested in rediscovering your cultural identity,
I don't see how you need to take a formal college class for that.
Seems like a waste of funding to me (in a time where it's arguably scarce).

[ronmcdon]

I've been thinking about this a lot and I just cannot figure out WHY there seems to be so much support. I can't figure it out.

I think a lot of it has to do with the fact there is racial profiling going on.
The bill, or so I get the impression, is targeting Hispanics.

Also, maybe a lot of ppl have relatives/friends who they want to bring over illegally.
As far as I know, a lot of coyotes go through AZ.
Maybe going through other states makes it more dangerous and/or expensive.
Not saying it's right or wrong, just contemplating the practical concerns.

[Gnnr]

The bottom line is, as a legal and tax paying citizen

That's it right there. The bottom line. That's why I think the US is going to find a "path to citizenship" solution. 10+ million illegal immigrants. Cost of deporting all of them vs. profit from taxing them. Just my late night conspiracy theory though...

[Brian]

[QUOTE=ronmcdon;3446014]Why do you think the US is making racism more popular?
QUOTE]

How or why?

Why? not sure why.

How?

Well, I don't know but I feel like I see so much these days about race. I thought we were supposed to become more raceless. I feel like more than ever, things are created BASED on race. Channels ,award shows, clothing companies, etc.

:smash:

I just feel like we're going backwards in some ways.


That's sort of off topic I guess.


Anyways, I want to see The United States of America. I want United States citizens. I want people to be here because they should be. I want them to work and pay taxes (well, it would ben ice not to, lol). Let's be Americans!

I don't want to see "The States of America...somewhat".

This is America. We should make the rules. I'm tired of other people making the rules. It's bullshit.

[Gnnr]

How or why?

Why? not sure why.

How?

Well, I don't know but I feel like I see so much these days about race. I thought we were supposed to become more raceless. I feel like more than ever, things are created BASED on race. Channels ,award shows, clothing companies, etc.

:smash:

I just feel like we're going backwards in some ways.

Ehh. Its the media. They blow everything out of proportion to get ratings. Its sensationalist reporting. Now they use facebook and twitter as "reliable sources" of information, lol. Thats what TV is filled with now, shit news and reality tv shows. Its so ass backwards.

[ronmcdon]

I don't think it'll be a color-blind society anytime soon.
maybe government has the power to enforce this (although I doubt it).

Lot of it is just that ppl identify with those who are similiar.
Race is a divider isn't always the most important, but it is often enough.

Even in the hypothetical situation where we do become "raceless".
Ppl will still be divided by other things like $$$, politics, religion, taste in stuff, and who knows what.
I actually don't think race is as big a deal as a source of resentment as ppl make it out to be.

The media fuels division,
but the media also gives ppl what they want.

[kingkilburn]

I didn't read the thread and I don't intend to.

The problem with the law is that it gives the police the power to ILLEGALLY search seize and detain ANYONE they deem suspicious. What "suspicious" is to broadly defined.

This law is unconstitutional.

What ever your stance on immigration, illegal or otherwise is irrelevant.

Laws like this and Lieberman's proposed new powers for the SecState spell the end of Freedom and Liberty.

[lou's40sx]

sSchools and colleges have created a lot of useless courses that most people will never use. For those of you dumbasses who took French, Latin, and German in high school, I hope your 240sx breaks down in Downtown L.A. and use that shit. I took Spanish in high school and educational classes such as "Los Angeles daily life" as my cultural course.

1. Courses in diversity and ethnic studies are great and all but it just becomes segregation and the formation of clicks, and crews, and gangs will develop. The educational system in the United States should only have 1 history and or diversity course called American History or American Studies because once you're a citizen of the USA, you're American. You shouldn't give a damn about what country you WERE from, you should care about who you are NOW and what you are now, an American. If the country to fled out of was so good, you should stay there and study Chinese history, Mexican history, Zimbabwe~ history (Woot, finally fit in this cool country in a sentence).


2. In addition why would you even take "Chicano course" or anything that relates to "Education" course?
And according to Yahoo article, Worst paying Degrees:

#7 Education Degree: $36,000k
#5 Spanish Degree: $35,000k

With these two premises, I say that fighting for these courses are fail anyway. (Tell your conselor to Substitute Ethnic studies with Logics/Arguementative Philosophy).

[CO240]

To the subject at hand. Its a simple case of abuse on a good thing. Now regulations will be put into effect. All in hopes to scrounge up every penny. In this case, couple billions of tax payer dollar that are used to educate, medicate, and incarcerate these illegal individuals..

Quote for truth!!


This pretty much sums up where I'm at. I dont understand why it is okay for legal American tax payers to pay the way for people that are breaking the law by being here.

I agree with Brain, how difficult is it to carry a form of identification on you... I'm almost positive EVERYONE on here has been doing just that. I understand it sucks for some people that may be bothered by it. People call it racism, and are concerned for those people's feeling... but in my opinion, the people feelings you SHOULD be concerned for is the people that have become citizens the RIGHT way. How do you think all of this makes them feel? Having to jump through hoops and wait and all that. Then, they finally make it, they are citizens... now you have to pay taxes, pay the way for the other folks that decided to take the short cut, the lazy way, the ILLEGAL WAY. I know I would be pissed.

I havent read through this whole thread, maybe this has been mentioned, but maybe some of you, that live in the area, could shed some light on this story... Michelle Malkin THE AMERICAN FLAG COMES SECOND (http://michellemalkin.com/2006/03/29/the-american-flag-comes-second/)

...wow

[kingkilburn]

Every one participating in the action shown in the link should be tried for treason but that doesn't make the law in Arizona Constitutional in any manor.

[jspaeth]

Every one participating in the action shown in the link should be tried for treason but that doesn't make the law in Arizona Constitutional in any manor.


WRONG!!!!!!!!

I am watching TV right now, and a lawyer just cited a RECENT case that went to the SUPREME COURT.

In an 8-0 unanimous decision, the SUPREME COURT ruled that police can stop someone to ask for identification WITHOUT ANY REASON WHATSOEVER.

The new law is actually STRICTER (requiring probable cause or other reason for being questioned) than the federal law which is ALREADY IN PLACE BUT NOT BEING INFORCED AT ALL

[ronmcdon]

Well you can certainly expect this deal to go to court.
A precedent case might increase the liklihood that a similar case will go the same way,
but it's no means a guarantee.

I could care less if ppl think this AZ is Constitutional or not.
Anything remotely controversial has a good chance of going to court.
In the end, it's the Supreme Courts interpretation that really stands.

Ppl were fussing about CA Prop 8 being 'Un-Constitional'.
That went to court & held just the same.

[kingkilburn]

The constitution protects against unwarranted and unlawful search and seizure. Based on that the Arizona law is unconstitutional on the grounds that they need no proof in order to detain and search you.

Prop 8 IS unconstitutional.

[ronmcdon]

Lol, tell that to the judge.

Constitution can always be amended, so it's all for nought.

[kingkilburn]

Well when they amended it it will be lawful. Until then it's garbage.

[amdnivram]

sSchools and colleges have created a lot of useless courses that most people will never use. For those of you dumbasses who took French, Latin, and German in high school, I hope your 240sx breaks down in Downtown L.A. and use that shit. I took Spanish in high school and educational classes such as "Los Angeles daily life" as my cultural course.

1. Courses in diversity and ethnic studies are great and all but it just becomes segregation and the formation of clicks, and crews, and gangs will develop. The educational system in the United States should only have 1 history and or diversity course called American History or American Studies because once you're a citizen of the USA, you're American. You shouldn't give a damn about what country you WERE from, you should care about who you are NOW and what you are now, an American. If the country to fled out of was so good, you should stay there and study Chinese history, Mexican history, Zimbabwe~ history (Woot, finally fit in this cool country in a sentence).


2. In addition why would you even take "Chicano course" or anything that relates to "Education" course?
And according to Yahoo article, Worst paying Degrees:

#7 Education Degree: $36,000k
#5 Spanish Degree: $35,000k

With these two premises, I say that fighting for these courses are fail anyway. (Tell your conselor to Substitute Ethnic studies with Logics/Arguementative Philosophy).
I'm just going to have to say that the answer to you question is he-man

Anyway, unless your talking about high school, everything education wise that you just said is just wrong. College is to educate and enlighten, meaning you learn what your interested in. If your interested in learning about other cultures why the fuck not? I mean any class that focuses on a group of people will be bias. Saying that fighting for these courses is stupid because it restricts education and its opportunities. College is a place where you expand your knowledge, its not some restrictive bs map laid out for you that tells you what your going to learn. I didnt take the Chicano class because im just not interested but some might be. Hell with arguments like that they might was well take out any courses that involve non American history/subject.

[Gnnr]

Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution )

Good wiki read. We're turning into a police sate, bye bye freedom. :(

[kingkilburn]

That is no joke. That is why I'm against prop 8 and this law in Arizona. When you can justify taking one man's rights you can justify taking any rights from any man.

The flood gates are open and it is left to the citizen to stop the hemorrhaging.

[shiftdrift]

yeah, the rights of LEGAL AMERICANS, NOT ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS/ALIENS.

[kingkilburn]

The law is for all people within Arizona. They only find out if you are legal or not after you are illegally detained and searched.

[jspaeth]

The law is for all people within Arizona. They only find out if you are legal or not after you are illegally detained and searched.

You are a wack-job man.

How is asking someone to show you proof of ID or citizenship DETAINING AND SEARCHING?

I am not okay with cops going into someones house or just cuffing people and throwing them in a car.

I AM okay with them simply asking someone, "May I please see some identification?".

[kingkilburn]

Have you not read the actual law?

They don't have to ask. They can detain on pure suspicion.

[aznpoopy]

*nervous tick

They only find out if you are legal or not after you are illegally detained and searched.

legally detained. the problem is pretextual traffic stops are legal (thereby giving officers a blank check on racial profiling, etc.). see: Whren v. United States


How is asking someone to show you proof of ID or citizenship DETAINING AND SEARCHING?

since Terry v. Ohio, 1968.
counts as a terry stop


They can detain on pure suspicion.

on reasonable suspicion, which is a legal standard, not just a cute selection of wording. the problem is that in practice, the cops can pretty much do whatever they want and justify it with made up shit later (similar to pretextual traffic stops)

[kingkilburn]

Detaining some one based solely on the color of their skin IS unreasonable.

[jspaeth]

Detaining some one based solely on the color of their skin IS unreasonable.


I think there is something wrong with your wiring.

The idea is not to DETAIN someone BECAUSE of the color of their skin. It is that if you are not carrying proof of citizenship, you could be detained, because

THE LAW ALREADY STATES THAT IF YOU ARE NOT A CITIZEN, YOU HAVE TO CARRY PAPERS.


What is the point of carrying the citizenship or green card if no one can ever check it?

You literally have no common sense.

[kingkilburn]

And you literally are an ass.

The law gives police the right to detain ANYONE who is suspicious. They all ready had the right to detain noncitizens but they had to prove they weren't citizens before they cuold detain them. That is not the case now.

You absolutely fail to comprehend what I am saying.

[aznpoopy]

double post

[aznpoopy]

Detaining some one based solely on the color of their skin IS unreasonable.

of course it is. the point is that it's racial profiling as wrong per se, but racial profiling stops are pseudo-legitimized under the the pretextual stop rationale delineated under whren v. US.

Whren v. United States (http://www.4lawschool.com/whren.htm)

in other words, i didn't pull you over b/c you were hispanic, but i targeted you because you were hispanic (not that i would admit it) and then followed you around until you made a technical infraction (e.g. 1mph over speed limit) and then pulled you over for it, or something similarly retarded, which is 100% legal under whren.


It is that if you are not carrying proof of citizenship, you could be detained

"detain" is the initial stop. you have that backwards. you can be detained for any reason (e.g. 1mph over the limit - pretextual stop based in reality on racial profiling). upon such detainment, if reasonable suspicion exists, they can then inquire as to your immigration status.

[ronmcdon]

Well when they amended it it will be lawful. Until then it's garbage.

Prop 8 has been law after it was voted in Nov 08, so it is infact currently lawful.
It will remain so, until it's challenged in court & gets overturned.
It's been challenged in court once already but held.

If you look at Prop 22 a few years prior, it was more or less the same deal.
Courts INTERPRETED it as un-constitutional.

Imo, the constitution is important as far it's judicial interpretation.
The most you can complain about really is that the courts may be inconsistent and the constitution vague.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_8_(2008)

California's State Constitution put Proposition 8 into immediate effect the day after the election.[4] The proposition did not affect domestic partnerships in California [5] or same-sex marriages performed before November 5, 2008.[6][7][8]

These protests led to several lawsuits being filed in the State Supreme Court and the Federal District Court. On November 13, 2008, the California Supreme Court asked California Attorney General Jerry Brown for an opinion on whether the Court should accept these cases for review and whether the measure should be suspended while they decide the case. On November 19, the Court accepted three lawsuits challenging Proposition 8, which consolidated into Strauss v. Horton.[158] When the Supreme Court upheld the voter initiative, a suit, Perry v. Schwarzenegger was filed in a Federal District Court in San Francisco. A trial as of January 11, 2010 is currently being held.[159]

[g6civcx]

the point is that it's racial profiling as wrong per se

Careful how you use "per se". It's a pet peeve of mine.

"detain" is the initial stop. you have that backwards. you can be detained for any reason (e.g. 1mph over the limit - pretextual stop based in reality on racial profiling). upon such detainment, if reasonable suspicion exists, they can then inquire as to your immigration status.

The officer on the scene has the right to "detain" anyone for any reason to control the scene.

Detention can include subduing, handcuff, and imprisonment.

You are not required to be given any rights while under detention as compared with being under "arrest".

[kingkilburn]

Prop 8 may be "law" but it is still extremely unconstitutional.

I'll say it again.
When you can justify taking one man's rights you can justify taking any rights from any man.

[jspaeth]

Prop 8 may be "law" but it is still extremely unconstitutional.

I'll say it again.
When you can justify taking one man's rights you can justify taking any rights from any man.


Answer this question. A person is in the country ILLEGAL...they are breaking a law.


How is anyone supposed to find out that the person is here illegally if NO ONE IS EVER ALLOWED TO QUESTION THEM UNLESS THEY ARE BREAKING ANOTHER LAW?


So you are breaking a law by being here illegally, but you can't ever possibly get caught for doing that unless you do something ELSE illegal?

That literally makes no sense.


Just like the democrats, you provide no rational, common-sense way for determining who is legal and who is not.


I am not racist, if you are black, yellow, green, red or brown but are here legally, WELCOME!

If you are black, yellow, green, WHITE, red, or brown and are here ILLEGALLY, get the fuck out!


I am so sick of this bullshit. I have friends that have had to leave the country (EDUCATED people with PhDs studying and actually contributing in a MAJOR way).

Yet YOU are okay with them being kicked out bc they FOLLOW THE RULES, but people who knowingly break them are allowed to stay.


Fuck that, you make no sense.

[jspaeth]

Prop 8 may be "law" but it is still extremely unconstitutional.

I'll say it again.
When you can justify taking one man's rights you can justify taking any rights from any man.


Also, nowhere does it say that a NON-CITIZEN has the right to evade being asked to show proof of citizenship.


It's like there is a loophole, you KNOW there is a loophole, and you just don't care.

[kingkilburn]

They are taking my rights away under the guise that they are protecting me from some outside threat. That is what is wrong.

I made no comment on the issue of how to determine some one's citizenship. I'm sure I could come up with some kind of solution though.
I'm sorry your friends were deported but I have nothing to do with that and you shouldn't take it out on me for simply disagreeing with you.

As an answer to your question I would say do a proper investigation. That means you do not punish some one through imprisonment before you know if they are legal or not. It also means you do not take a citizens rights away under suspicion that they are not citizens.

Personally when it comes to immigration I am in favor of letting pretty much every one in. Unless there is a documented reason you should not be here why not? They should give'm all amnesty and citizenship.





I'm sorry if that seems disjointed. My thoughts are going a mile a minute in all different directions.





Edit

Why does any one have to show proof of citizenship on request? This is the land of the free not some fascist police sate.

You assume who ever you are talking to is a law abiding citizen until they prove otherwise. You don't go around arresting every "suspicious" person you come across.


Edit #2

Shouldn't the burden of proof lie with the court not the accused. Let them prove that I am not a citizen before arresting me. What would I do, leave the country?

[ronmcdon]

Prop 8 may be "law" but it is still extremely unconstitutional.

I'll say it again.
When you can justify taking one man's rights you can justify taking any rights from any man.

well hey, you're perfectly entitled to your opinion.
what you consider constitutional, rights, may not be universally accepted.
One need not look past politics to acknowlege this.
I don't always agree either, but the law is what it is.

Want something legally changed?
Vote, take it to court, and/or deal with it.
It's about all that can be done, as far as what's practical.

[jspaeth]

Personally when it comes to immigration I am in favor of letting pretty much every one in. Unless there is a documented reason you should not be here why not? They should give'm all amnesty and citizenship.


This statement is enough for me to realize that you are not worth even arguing with. Have fun.

Our country alread has enough trouble with our OWN poor. We don't need an influx of more and more poor, uneductated, unskilled people coming in.

Literally done responding to you after the above statement, as your intentions are clear.

[kingkilburn]

ron - I would not belly ache if I didn't participate. I feel that those that do not participate have no valid opinion and have no right speak on the matter.

jspaeth - If you can't handle disagreement why did you even post? Please tell the world what my intentions are. Also I am debating. If you have taken this to the level of an argument please do go cool down before you get to emotional and make another personal attack.

[g6civcx]

Okay, I have gone through the legal process for immigration to get my citizenship. It took me over 17 years and more than $35,000 in legal fees.

From my personal and legal experience, the US immigration system is fuct. The law is obscure. The courts are underfunded and overworked.

I would like to put any of you through the process and see what your experience would be.

And it's not like I came here for economic prosperity. I am here as the direct result of American foreign policy. My family was forced to serve for the US military. When the US pulled out, it was stay/go to jail/die or leave. No other country would take us because we are political refugees.

I stay out of jail. I work hard. I pay my taxes. I volunteer. I spent most of professional career serving veterans and the public.

The laws don't bother me. The public mentality that illegal immigrants are criminals and a strain public resources bother me.

In my personal experience, 95% of undocumented immigrants just want to work and pay taxes.

It's easy to blame someone/something for our problems. If an illegal immigrant who doesn't speak the language and have no education steals your job, why can't you get a better job?

99% of the general population can't steal my job. I worked hard to get my job. Why can't you?

If you look at tax filings, some undocumented immigrants actually pay taxes. How many naturalized people evade taxes, or do other crimes?

If you want to take out 95% of the good people to target the 5% criminal population, this will not even make a small dent in the current problems in the US. It's not even a drop in the bucket.

I've worked on the US Congressonal budget. The US wastes hundreds and thousands of trillions of dollars on non-defense spending. Nobody can do anything because the people who are sucking the money are very powerful and entrenched.

[g6civcx]

My solution:

Grant amnesty to everyone here or wants to come here. Create a national registry of immigrants. Put them on probationary status. Do not give them welfare. If they commit a crime, deport them forever. Require them to purchase health insurance.

Tax them double the rate of citizens.

Make them pass a 12-grade English proficiency exam and deport if failed, but then you'd have to also deport like half of the citizens as well.

That should take care of most of your concerns.

[LimeLite Racing]

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:5rfFaz66L0UzIM:http://miladworld.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/snap-the-power-best-of-snap-2003-front.jpg (http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://miladworld.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/snap-the-power-best-of-snap-2003-front.jpg&imgrefurl=http://wordsareunnecesary.blogspot.com/2008/09/los-elegidos-de-bruno-va-snap.html&usg=__tEM4DVuRgsx8F5XWQpQaZdj1rA4=&h=953&w=953&sz=72&hl=en&start=1&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=5rfFaz66L0UzIM:&tbnh=148&tbnw=148&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dsnap!%2Bthe%2Bpower%26um%3D1%26hl%3De n%26safe%3Doff%26gbv%3D2%26tbs%3Disch:1)

[amdnivram]

I think there is something wrong with your wiring.

The idea is not to DETAIN someone BECAUSE of the color of their skin. It is that if you are not carrying proof of citizenship, you could be detained, because

THE LAW ALREADY STATES THAT IF YOU ARE NOT A CITIZEN, YOU HAVE TO CARRY PAPERS.


What is the point of carrying the citizenship or green card if no one can ever check it?

You literally have no common sense.
Well it may be the idea, but how do you think people will get chosen to dhow their identification. I would rather not live here than having to constantly prove my residency. Not because its such a hassle but because its an obvious invasion of privacy. We might as well wear armbands.

[ronmcdon]

My solution isn't all that different.

Reorganize immigration.
Allow those who want to come, with conditions.
They need to demonstrate they can speak the language with some degree of proficiency.
They need to prove they're productive members of society.
(proof of employment, credit score, no criminal record, etc).
Give positive preferential treatment to established/educated proffesionals in demand in our country.

Offer this at a reasonable cost, maybe $5k/head.
Better the needed money goes into our government's pocket than human traffickers.

Do not offer citizenship outright.
Offer a probabtionary work permit that monitors them for whatever duration deemed neccesary.
Tax them as would any other citizen.
Double taxes would just encourage tax evasion and/or illegal immigration, so I am not really for this.

What I'm not really comfortable about is immigrants sending a good portion of their income back to family/friends in their home country.
That simply can't be good for our economy.
(Would encourage inflation perhaps?)
Their finances should probably be more tightly regulated.

Agreed with health insurance.
Give them drivers licences if needed be and make damn well sure they get legit auto insurance.

[kingkilburn]

The problems with gaining citizenship are why I say give everyone instant citizenship. My only requirement would be that you speak or are actively learning to speak English(I know that part is controversial so save it for it's own thread).

It would be as simple as going to the DMV and signing the paperwork.

[g6civcx]

They need to demonstrate they can speak the language with some degree of proficiency

Before we can do that we need to establish English as the official language. Right the US does not have an official language. We just happen to speak English because it's convenient.

They need to prove they're productive members of society.
(proof of employment, credit score, no criminal record, etc)

I disagree with the credit score. This mechanism is meant to measure how good you are as a consumer, not how good you are as a citizen. Maybe they are the same? But the credit score was developed by private companies to measure who would be good candidates to take money from.

Give positive preferential treatment to established/educated proffesionals in demand in our country.

We already have this in the visa program so it's no different than what we have now.

Offer this at a reasonable cost, maybe $5k/head.
Better the needed money goes into our government's pocket than human traffickers.

It already costs almost this much in fees. The problem is nobody knows what the fuck paperwork to file so lawyers make like $50k/head.

Do not offer citizenship outright.
Offer a probabtionary work permit that monitors them for whatever duration deemed neccesary.
Tax them as would any other citizen.
Double taxes would just encourage tax evasion and/or illegal immigration, so I am not really for this.


Tax evaders already evade no matter what the tax rate is. Make them earn their keep.

What I'm not really comfortable about is immigrants sending a good portion of their income back to family/friends in their home country.
That simply can't be good for our economy.
(Would encourage inflation perhaps?)

It would be good if those countries are buying US exports. We have to start making stuff people want to buy first though.

Their finances should probably be more tightly regulated.

We already have tax laws. This is not different from what we have now.


Most of the stuff you suggest we already have. It's just that the system is so fuct nobody knows that these things exist.

[g6civcx]

My only requirement would be that you speak or are actively learning to speak English(I know that part is controversial so save it for it's own thread).

99% of the general population do not speak proper English. "Proper" English is defined by English textbooks published in ENGland.

We speak a slightly different dialect called American English.

[LimeLite Racing]

99% of the general population do not speak proper English. "Proper" English is defined by English textbooks published in ENGland.

We speak a slightly different dialect called American English.

Bullshit. English is the same language throughout the "English" speaking countries. The "King's English" blah blah blah... it's all the same shit. In America, we speak English. If I go to Mexico, and speak English I would not be understood. Fortunately I don't live in fucking Mexico. I live in AMERICA. IN AMERICA, WE SPEAK FUCKING ENGLISH.

I would be able to understand a person in England as much as I would be able to understand my next door neighbor.. (that is if he isn't a mexican who doesn't speak English)

[ronmcdon]

no its not the same.

differences are subtle but nonethless there.
I.E. Color spelt Colour, paycheck spelt paycheque.

It's not like an Englishment won't be able to function in the US, or vice-versa,
but the differences are nonetheless there.

[kingkilburn]

American English - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_English)

[theicecreamdan]

I would be able to understand a person in England as much as I would be able to understand my next door neighbor.. (that is if he isn't a mexican who doesn't speak English)

Have you tested this? It would be easy, but there will be some adjustment necessary. Easier than going from spanish to english. I have met ZERO mexicans, mexican americans, french, german, etc tourists who I couldn't communicate with.

Language isn't the barrier to your communication issues.


It's easy to blame someone/something for our problems. If an illegal immigrant who doesn't speak the language and have no education steals your job, why can't you get a better job?


Because this deserves to be repeated.

[jspaeth]

Have you tested this? It would be easy, but there will be some adjustment necessary. Easier than going from spanish to english. I have met ZERO mexicans, mexican americans, french, german, etc tourists who I couldn't communicate with.

Language isn't the barrier to your communication issues.



Because this deserves to be repeated.


I will come back into the discussion.

I have 2 problems with illegal immigrants, NEITHER OF WHICH is "they take our jobs".


1) Use many of the publicly funding things in this country without paying taxes (they are literally breaking the backs of the healthcare facilities in the Southwest).

2) Letting in $20 million+ Mexicans become citizens overnight does NOT provide any incentive for them to assimiliate. Like we have seen over and over again.


I have a problem with Mexicans who want to BRING MEXICO here. If you want to come here and be an American fine.


Do you see millions of Swedish immigrants coming to the US and having rallies and waving Swedish flags and speaking only Swedish?

No, I thought not.

How can we grant citizenship to another $25 million (mostly) poor people, when we can't even take care of the poor that are currently here (without stealing money from those who are successful)?

The Democratic Party wants these people legalized PURELY because they know that it generates enough votes to give them an absolute majority.

Solution:

If you are here, you can be a "guest worker" or whatever, but you MUST pay taxes.

If no taxes paid, NO (ZERO) access to any public benefits (healthcare, etc.).

Build a fence to stop people from coming in illegally. In the future, anyone caught coming in illegally is immediately deported.

EVERY PERSON (including current US citizens) must AT ALL TIME (not jsut while driving) carry either a US Driver's License or other proof of citizenship.

[kingkilburn]

#1 They pay taxes on the things they buy and on the legitimate jobs most of them do have. Really what the problem is here is a flawed healthcare system.

#2 Society is who dictates assimilation. The government can do nothing to further this goal. We should be outraged at the reconquesta BS but most people(read politically correct scared white people) want to roll over and let them be. We should also be outraged at the Arab Muslims who bring their archaic chauvinistic customs here and KILL their own daughters for not doing what they are told.

Welcome back to the discussion.

[Karlitos]

This thread seemed to turn away from the original topic of SB1070 and now just a general immigration discussion. I will now post MY POV in replies to post after my first post.

The whole immigration process in the US is pretty silly.

Educated people from first and second world countries do not move here anymore because they have better opportunities in their home countries. Even if they wanted to move here, they would have to jump through so many bureaucratic hoops that is is nowhere near worth it to them. And coming here illegally is definitely not worth it to them at all, that is not even an option. So they stay living happily in their home countries. America is not luring in engineers, scientists, and other great minds from all over the world as it once used to.

Yet 'refugees' seem to be welcomed with open arms. Pretty much all it takes to be let into the US is to be from some country that Americans assume evil/poor/crappy, and to make up some story about how your native government is tyrannical or whatever, and make sure to make it sound a lot worse than it really is. Middle Easterners are pouring in. Indians are coming. And America loves to turn a blind eye to illegal immigrants. Thanks to sophisticated networks and connections, most illegal immigrants have it easier here than legal immigrants, easier even than many regular citizens. Plus the government itself seems to be lending a helping hand.

And the entire US citizenship process is a joke. Especially compared to other countries. I do not even want to get into that.
Yes the process is silly, expensive, a joke, and mostly impossible if you don't know what your doing. So you hire a broker who takes half your money. Not fair but will get you citizenship EVENTUALLY. Which is what we want, right? Legals and not illegals.

Why else would they come for if not for opportunities? Most are not here to commit crimes, they are here to work their asses off and support their families here or in their home country.

Refugees are a different story, and must actually meet certain requirements before they are accepted as a refugee. Middle Eastern' and Indians aren't coming by way of refuge, but of normal legal or illegal immigration. Yes illegals are other races besides mexican. The U.S. is too busy to worry about immigration when they have bigger issues such as the economy, where illegals are trying to help. And no illegals don't have it easier. Most lived paranoid trying to stay away from trouble and wondering if their job will get raided by the BP.

Arizona bill targeting ethnic studies signed into law - latimes.com (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-ethnic-studies-20100512,0,5313151.story?track=rss)

Maybe the slippery slope arguments have some validity in this case.
Thats just wrong. Its like saying it's wrong to learn about a different culture where the students taking the classes are Mexican that have been white-washed and trying to grow back to their roots. Kids in Mexico enjoy and love to take english/US History classes why does the US deny that kids here. Its an elective you choose to take it and should have be conscious of the course material, if taking in Junior or Senior High.

That's another can worms.
They are talking about cancelling ethnic studies classes.
(Chicano studies specifically?)

I won't disagree with AZ policy there specifically.
I'm skeptical any Liberal Arts classes have any practical value whatsoever.
They do have value, to learn about the history of a culture weather it be asian, mexican european. If this were to be fair it should end classes of Euro history since they too controlled US soil once. But its not practical to take away them because they were white. Thats not fair.

I think they decided to only mention Chicano classes to add more fuel to the fire. (***LA Times, by the way, see me following thought down below.)

I don't necessarily agree with that new decision, but I kind of see why they did it... sort of. We're supposed to be moving away from racism... but I feel like this country is making racism more popular quite frankly.





Anyways, what is the shit about Los Angeles not doing any business with Arizona? Boycotting Arizona businss? I really hate a lot of people right now for being so stupid. It's unreal.

I am truly amazed at how much shit there is right now to SUPPORT illegal immigrants.
It's like upside down world right now. WTF???


Do people even think at all anymore? It's no wonder the rest of the world is laughing their asses off at the USA right now.
It does feel like we are moving toward racism and its not right. Its happening in San Diego as well. It's not dumb it's called winning votes. Population in these cities in Hispanic, you do something that they support and you win votes. They're against something thats wrong in the first place so stand up to get what's right. Like when the SUNS used the "Los Suns" Shirts they showed support but now for boycotting they hardly sold tickets because people are afraid to leave and that must be fixed. People are just trying to do the right thing, their not supporting illegal immigration but demanding for the system to be fixed.

^^^^

EXACTLY.

This country is so retarded sometimes. The bottom line is, as a legal and tax paying citizen, i shouldn't have to pay for an illegal's shit. PERIOD. No matter how "deserving" they feel they are.
Most illegals don't receive any benefits, and most also pay taxes, making them tax payers. They don't feel deserving they are equal and demand equality to a certain point and full equality if they are legal.

Why do you think the US is making racism more popular?

About the forementioned classes
My co-worker, who is 3rd gen Mexican, actually took a Chicano studies class recently @ the local city college.
Most of the stuff they taught was more or less was just bashing the US.
It was just really one sided, bias arguments.
It was all criticism and pretty much no praise.
Garbage arguments like they stole from the Mexican government and did terrible things.
No doubt the US did a lot of wrong, but what nation's government did not?

I don't see any value in a class like that.
It just encourages resentment, imo.
My co-worker is kinda pissed that he feels the curriculum is fostering such hostility & being so ungrateful.
I would have to agree, esp given how kids can be so impressionable.

It probably is just an isolated incident.
However, I can appreciate what AZ is trying to do, if they're having the same situation.

Even if you're interested in rediscovering your cultural identity,
I don't see how you need to take a formal college class for that.
Seems like a waste of funding to me (in a time where it's arguably scarce).
I don't know what college but chicano studies usually means culture, mexican history would be the war with the US and the loss of land because of Santa Ana and his greedy personality. And yes all governments have done something wrong but the new law is worse then wrong.
Its called being informed and mature about the topic. Take it how you like it but most are just stated facts of what happened. Books are usually written by white people or white-washed mexicans and are show bias to america. Books in mexico are worse towards Santa Ana since he is the one that messed up. Where else can you learn? College is usually accredited by an organization that approves their curriculum what better source to learn from?

I think a lot of it has to do with the fact there is racial profiling going on.
The bill, or so I get the impression, is targeting Hispanics.

Also, maybe a lot of ppl have relatives/friends who they want to bring over illegally.
As far as I know, a lot of coyotes go through AZ.
Maybe going through other states makes it more dangerous and/or expensive.
Not saying it's right or wrong, just contemplating the practical concerns.
It is, and thats the wrong part, it should target general illegals not hispanics. Coyotes go through anywhere they can with no guarantees. The best way is to pay off an agent in a booth like they did in San Ysidro a couple of weeks ago.

That's it right there. The bottom line. That's why I think the US is going to find a "path to citizenship" solution. 10+ million illegal immigrants. Cost of deporting all of them vs. profit from taxing them. Just my late night conspiracy theory though...
except most already pay taxes. and the way things are going not much is going to get done with current political leaders.


Well, I don't know but I feel like I see so much these days about race. I thought we were supposed to become more raceless. I feel like more than ever, things are created BASED on race. Channels ,award shows, clothing companies, etc.


I just feel like we're going backwards in some ways.


That's sort of off topic I guess.


Anyways, I want to see The United States of America. I want United States citizens. I want people to be here because they should be. I want them to work and pay taxes (well, it would ben ice not to, lol). Let's be Americans!

I don't want to see "The States of America...somewhat".

This is America. We should make the rules. I'm tired of other people making the rules. It's bullshit.
It's called stereotypes. People get mad when mentioned but most likely fill them. It's life get use to it, thats on the people not the government and will most likely not change.
People are here because they see opportunities to live better. If you want to get rid of people their are some undeserving legals as well. And americans make the rules that others don't like.


its late I'm tired ill add more later. They're is just so many things wrong in this thread most people have no clue. read my first post as i think its more informational as to why. I'm just trying to fix the people that have no clue what they're saying.

[Touge Noob S13]

Hey karlitos, I've taken a "Chicano studies" class and I didn't learn shit about my peoples history. All they talked about is "the white man is putting us down" and that we are "Aztecs". If I disgreed with what they said I apperntly was "white washed".

[amdnivram]

I think the classes really vary depending on the school. Education is not equal and "lower colleges" will have a greater amount of bias or atleast less rationality when it comes to solutions/reactions. Its the same for class like women studies and african studies in which men or white men are the oppressors and still to blame.

[kingkilburn]

Most mexicans are not aztec but one of the many tribes that they themselves took over. The aztecs were from the US southwest not mexico.

sounds to me like chicano studies is the same as womens studies or black history, just about a different people the white man has kept down.

[LimeLite Racing]

#1 They pay taxes on the things they buy and on the legitimate jobs most of them do have. Really what the problem is here is a flawed healthcare system.

#2 Society is who dictates assimilation. The government can do nothing to further this goal. We should be outraged at the reconquesta BS but most people(read politically correct scared white people) want to roll over and let them be. We should also be outraged at the Arab Muslims who bring their archaic chauvinistic customs here and KILL their own daughters for not doing what they are told.

Welcome back to the discussion.

We don't have sales tax here in Oregon. How do the illegals pay taxes for what they buy up here?

[kingkilburn]

For the 45 states with sales tax they pay a good deal of taxes.

For the five backwards states that don't, you guys are just missing out.



If I could change tax law I would go for a "Fair Tax". The issue of illegals not paying taxes would be nonexistent. With a "Fair Tax" tourism would pay more in tax revenue in many places than the current income taxes do.

[theicecreamdan]

Build a fence to stop people from coming in illegally. In the future, anyone caught coming in illegally is immediately deported.

EVERY PERSON (including current US citizens) must AT ALL TIME (not jsut while driving) carry either a US Driver's License or other proof of citizenship.

A fence isn't going to do anything. Even poor people are smarter than a fence.

and under what circumstances is anybody allowed to ask me to show my proof of citizenship?

[g6civcx]

sounds to me like chicano studies is the same as womens studies or black history, just about a different people the white man has kept down.

I am writing my master's thesis in women's study.

It's unfair to say that the oppressor is "white" and "man".

It's the oppressor mentality. Not the person doing the oppressing. You can have black/asian/hispanic/female people employing the same mentality.

You're not fighting a particular sex/gender or skin colour; you're fighting a mentality.

[jspaeth]

For the 45 states with sales tax they pay a good deal of taxes.

For the five backwards states that don't, you guys are just missing out.


If I could change tax law I would go for a "Fair Tax". The issue of illegals not paying taxes would be nonexistent. With a "Fair Tax" tourism would pay more in tax revenue in many places than the current income taxes do.

This is the dumbest excuse ever. So big whoop, poor people and illegal immigrants pay 5-7% on sales tax.

Still bullshit, considering even the lowest tax bracket pays 15% or so in income tax.

So to say that "paying sales tax is still paying taxes" is a load of shit.

A fence isn't going to do anything. Even poor people are smarter than a fence.

and under what circumstances is anybody allowed to ask me to show my proof of citizenship?


You didn't read that in context. I was saying that's how I would have it to shut up all these stupid politically correct pains in the asses.

Make it so that everyone has to carry proof of citizenship.

The only people who think that having to show ID is a problem are people who don't have one.

[g6civcx]

1) Use many of the publicly funding things in this country without paying taxes (they are literally breaking the backs of the healthcare facilities in the Southwest).

As I've said earlier, you need to audit the IRS filings. I do not know the exact figure because it's been a while since I've been in the IRS system, but there exists tax filings from people with no Social Security Number.

That means that there is a portion that don't have US citizenship but they still pay taxes.

I have prepared the federal health care budget. A very small percentage of the national budget actually goes into patient care.

The vast majority of the US health care spending (I estimate about 65%) goes into non-patient care or gets wasted.

If anyone actually followed the federal budget debate and understood what the hell is going on, they will recognize this.

2) Letting in $20 million+ Mexicans become citizens overnight does NOT provide any incentive for them to assimiliate. Like we have seen over and over again.

Assimilate or conform? If you don't recognize that every culture has good things and bad things, then just say so.

Take the good leave the bad. Goes for all cultures. Very simple.

I have a problem with Mexicans who want to BRING MEXICO here. If you want to come here and be an American fine.

Please define for me what it means to be an "American".

Would I meet your criteria? If not, does that make me a bad person? How many people living in the US would actually meet your criteria?

Do you see millions of Swedish immigrants coming to the US and having rallies and waving Swedish flags and speaking only Swedish?

No, I thought not.

I think you have issues with courtesy more than ethnicity.

If there were a gay pride parade, how would you feel? How about a military parade that's loud as hell and all the soldiers get drunk and burned down the whole town?


How can we grant citizenship to another $25 million (mostly) poor people, when we can't even take care of the poor that are currently here (without stealing money from those who are successful)?

I have worked with a lot of homeless and/or economically disadvantaged people that you would call "poor".

Many of these people have underlying mental and physical health problems that need to be addressed. There is no money and staff to help all these people for free.

It's nobody's fault. Some people are just crazy and beyond help.

The Democratic Party wants these people legalized PURELY because they know that it generates enough votes to give them an absolute majority.

Actually the Hispanic population is hugely Catholic, and the vast majority tend to be Republican. Hispanics share a lot of values proclaimed by the Republican Party, like abortion, gay, gun, spending, defense, etc.

I find it ironic that the Republican Party is shunning its own potential support base.

Did you actually get to know any Hispanic people other than just seeing them around town?

Solution:

If you are here, you can be a "guest worker" or whatever, but you MUST pay taxes.

If no taxes paid, NO (ZERO) access to any public benefits (healthcare, etc.).

Build a fence to stop people from coming in illegally. In the future, anyone caught coming in illegally is immediately deported.

EVERY PERSON (including current US citizens) must AT ALL TIME (not jsut while driving) carry either a US Driver's License or other proof of citizenship.

I have no problems at all with this, except that you know the fence is absolutely useless and it's a huge waste of money.

The money and manpower could be better spent elsewhere.

[g6civcx]

poor people and illegal immigrants pay 5-7% on sales tax.

Still bullshit, considering even the lowest tax bracket pays 15% or so in income tax.

So to say that "paying sales tax is still paying taxes" is a load of shit.


Your statements are not logical. Paying $0.01 in taxes is still paying taxes.

You may want to rephrase your statement to state that immigrants do not pay enough taxes under your standards.

How much is enough? 30%? 50%? Pay-per-use?

[kingkilburn]

g6civcx

I wasn't bashing Woman's studies or any of the other related classes. I have just found that most of the people teaching these classes have their heads up their asses. They blame the ills of the world on the white man or men in general. Usually the point of the class is to show why the subject of the class is superior to every one else.

I have had a class or two and know of a few people who took classes that broke that mold.



jspaeth

It would seem your entire argument is based on your own opinion and devoid of any kind of facts.

[zeitgeist]

if i was hispanic id move the fuck outta that state. It pretty much gives any kind of authority an excuse to profile and harass you.

Yes illegal immigration is a big ass problem but there are ways to go about preventing illegals in the country and this is a horrible way.

And what is showing a drivers license good for? Hell every illegal immigrant has one. Sooooo unless cops start asking for a birth certificate, SS card, and a bunch of other shit it makes this act worthless. Oh wait, they can get all that stuff too.....

This act is just political hoorah

And real talk, if u were in the situation many of these illegals were in, youd do the exact same shit they are doing

[HyperTek]

i doubt you will get profiled if you drive a nice/clean car with good plates/tags... if your driving a piece of shit, expect to get pulled over regardless of your ethnicity, i know so many non-minorities who drive jalopies and have no insurance.. sure thats unrelated, but still driving illegally.

[upsdude]

if someone came into your house and started demanding food and shelter, would you like it?

we share a geographic border with mexico, so of course the majority of illegals are going to be mexican/south american. the reason we don't have the same problem with illegals come in from our northern borders (canada) is because they're not a 3rd world country. mexico benefits from this because they don't have to deal with the poor people, and america becomes the welfare safety net.

[drift213]

correct me if im wrong but illegal people taking American jobs?? NO i don't thinks so if you don't have a job you are nothing but a lazy ass mother fuck3r that don't have what it takes to keep one and do sh!t right so you wont lose it!!! just answer this WHO ARE THE ONES ASKING FOR CHANGE OUT THE FREEWAY EXITS?? if you see a Illegal person out on freeway exits they are always selling flowers, or oranges or whatever but they are not lazy to just ask for change. I was born in this country but IM PROUD OF HAVING LATINO ROUTES IF YOU GO BACK ON YOUR FAMILY NOBODY IS FROM THIS COUNTRY ONLY NATIVE AMERICANS.. so if you call yourself AMERICAN LOOK BACK ON YOUR FAMILY BACKGROUND SEE WHERE YOU ARE FROM..MOST LIKELY YOU ARE NOT AMERICAN SORRY TO DISAPPOINT YOUR BUTT WHOLE MAYBE NEXT TIME IT WONT QUIFF HAHAHA

[HyperTek]

correct me if im wrong but illegal people taking American jobs?? NO i don't thinks so if you don't have a job you are nothing but a lazy ass mother fuck3r that don't have what it takes to keep one and do sh!t right so you wont lose it!!! just answer this WHO ARE THE ONES ASKING FOR CHANGE OUT THE FREEWAY EXITS?? if you see a Illegal person out on freeway exits they are always selling flowers, or oranges or whatever but they are not lazy to just ask for change. I was born in this country but IM PROUD OF HAVING LATINO ROUTES IF YOU GO BACK ON YOUR FAMILY NOBODY IS FROM THIS COUNTRY ONLY NATIVE AMERICANS.. so if you call yourself AMERICAN LOOK BACK ON YOUR FAMILY BACKGROUND SEE WHERE YOU ARE FROM..MOST LIKELY YOU ARE NOT AMERICAN SORRY TO DISAPPOINT YOUR BUTT WHOLE MAYBE NEXT TIME IT WONT QUIFF HAHAHA


this is the problem.. illegals taking low paying jobs, employers who rather pay em chips rather then pay a legit person minimum wage. Try being a legit person living off minimum wage, its harder now due to all the living expenses without going insane.

Its bad enough there is soo many labor jobs that pay soo little, employers take advantage of the fact that people will work for so little, really fucks it up.

[ronmcdon]

Keep this civil now, let's not stoop to uncivil presumptions here.

[ranger240]

Correct. However, you are innocent until proven guilty in this country. In order for law enforcement to ask for your ID, there had to be probable cause.

This new AZ bill makes it so state(not just federal) enfocement can ask for ID soley based on the fact that if you fit a profile of an illegal immegrant. Brown skin, not speaking english, hanging out in front of a Home Depot, etc... Thats the new probable cause.

exactly, you're innocent until proven guilty. guilty people have been running around for years, now they're going to be proven so and they're pissed claiming all this whoopla about it being racist/anti-mexican

guess what? IT IS. Its against mexican citizens hanging out in AZ when they arnt supposed to. If i wanted to move to europe i couldnt just show up and say, "i'm here, deal with it, i'm not leaving."

anytime you talk to a cop they want to see an ID, how is this scenario any different?

[kingkilburn]

The probable cause is based on the "suspicion" of the citizenship.

Now you tell me who appears suspicious.

[zeitgeist]

well one point id like to make on the low paying jobs is that if these mexican workers were replaced with higher paid employees then the cost of all the goods we buy will also go up ALOT. And that would greatly affect all those who are legal but are still poor
Not saying whats right or wrong, just throwing this into the fire

[kingkilburn]

So you aren't willing to pay more knowing that others will get payed?

The more money we put into the economy the more we get back out. That means higher wages and stronger currency.

[ranger240]

well one point id like to make on the low paying jobs is that if these mexican workers were replaced with higher paid employees then the cost of all the goods we buy will also go up ALOT. And that would greatly affect all those who are legal but are still poor
Not saying whats right or wrong, just throwing this into the fire

this argument ignores one distinct variable that always occurs when wages go up

mechanization i.e. capital equipment (and new technology) is developed to perform tasks previously done by labor which has become too expense. that innovation is great for the efficencey of the economy and country. it develops new high paying jobs, yes it eliminates some low paying jobs. but if we never innovated and embraced technology a majority of our economy would still be slugging away in the fields growing corn wishing someone would develop a john deere tractor


look up whats happening in florida, labor to harvest oranges is getting expensive so they're developing new agricultural equipment to do so. why is this important? it helps florida stay competitive with their foreign competitors in south america where labor will always be cheaper than the US (for the near future). i know what the obvious flippant counter to this reality is going to be, but hey like i said, new technology allowed us to get out of the fields and into the classrooms.


one final nail in this coffin. look back to the mid 19th century, labor was CHEAP, dirt cheap. labor was slavery and cost next to nothing to employ. Imagine this scenario, slaves are made free, costs will surely rise right? wrong it didnt happen. yes there were a ton of residual issues for decades of underpaying blacks, but guess what it helped stimulate? the great migration to northern cities. it didnt topple the US economy, we innovated and moved on.

technology can supplement workers, if people out there really want to argue that we need thousands of people to pick strawberries because nobody in america can develop a better way, well then your opinion of america is so messed up theres no point arguing with you, go read a book

[g6civcx]

I wasn't bashing Woman's studies or any of the other related classes. I have just found that most of the people teaching these classes have their heads up their asses. They blame the ills of the world on the white man or men in general. Usually the point of the class is to show why the subject of the class is superior to every one else.

I have had a class or two and know of a few people who took classes that broke that mold.

I strongly, strongly disagree. I've taken more than 2 classes. I've actually spent many years in the department so I know what's going on.

If you wanted to talk about it, we can. Most feminist theory text uses a very specific language. If you haven't had 2 years of basic sociology, you will most likely misinterpret what the text is saying.

For example, if you read feminist text that says "men are evil", you have to understand that "men" refers to a way that people act, not what people are. Anyone can act like a "man", and it is this act that is evil.

There is actually no definition for "man" or "male" in science, politics, or law. We don't actually have a requisite standard for determining if a person is "male" or "female".

The closest we have is people claiming to be one or the other, or none at all. Or sometimes we'll have society determining what is and isn't manly, but usually this standard is not unanimous or uniform.

Like most of us would normally consider that if you have a penis, you would be male. But if you spent years studying biogenetics like I have, you'll find that it's not as simple. There are so many cases where it's not clear if a person has a penis or not. There is actually a whole medical specialty dedicated to determining the sex of a person, and most times they can't tell.

Most people in gender study understands this. So when they say "men are evil", we know that they're talking about the act, not the people.

Confused yet?

The people you're talking about are probably just immature and haven't learned enough to understand. If I met any of them I would definitely love to school them.

[kingkilburn]

The statement "men are evil" is why that field of study is bs. Individuals CAN be evil but to say an entire group is evil is wrong and unscientific. I don't care how you identify "men" it is still flawed.

I am a man. I am not evil. Therefor "men" are not evil.
Hitler was a man. He was evil. Therefor a man can be evil.





Maybe we should start a new thread or take this to PM. I don't see this discussion being resolved in a short number of posts and we shouldn't totally thread jack.

[upsdude]

lol did this thread take a turn towards discussing women's studies?

[zeitgeist]

this argument ignores one distinct variable that always occurs when wages go up

mechanization i.e. capital equipment (and new technology) is developed to perform tasks previously done by labor which has become too expense. that innovation is great for the efficencey of the economy and country. it develops new high paying jobs, yes it eliminates some low paying jobs. but if we never innovated and embraced technology a majority of our economy would still be slugging away in the fields growing corn wishing someone would develop a john deere tractor


look up whats happening in florida, labor to harvest oranges is getting expensive so they're developing new agricultural equipment to do so. why is this important? it helps florida stay competitive with their foreign competitors in south america where labor will always be cheaper than the US (for the near future). i know what the obvious flippant counter to this reality is going to be, but hey like i said, new technology allowed us to get out of the fields and into the classrooms.


one final nail in this coffin. look back to the mid 19th century, labor was CHEAP, dirt cheap. labor was slavery and cost next to nothing to employ. Imagine this scenario, slaves are made free, costs will surely rise right? wrong it didnt happen. yes there were a ton of residual issues for decades of underpaying blacks, but guess what it helped stimulate? the great migration to northern cities. it didnt topple the US economy, we innovated and moved on.

technology can supplement workers, if people out there really want to argue that we need thousands of people to pick strawberries because nobody in america can develop a better way, well then your opinion of america is so messed up theres no point arguing with you, go read a book

good point. But technology cant replace everything. Some things are still going to require hands on works

[kingkilburn]

In the past the jobs lost due to mechanization were gained in the manufacture and maintenance of the said equipment.

For the most part these days the manufacturing is done overseas so there are a significant number of jobs lost.

[g6civcx]

The statement "men are evil" is why that field of study is bs. Individuals CAN be evil but to say an entire group is evil is wrong and unscientific. I don't care how you identify "men" it is still flawed.

I am a man. I am not evil. Therefor "men" are not evil.
Hitler was a man. He was evil. Therefor a man can be evil.





Maybe we should start a new thread or take this to PM. I don't see this discussion being resolved in a short number of posts and we shouldn't totally thread jack.

I'll take it a bit more and see if the mods have issues.

The fundamental issue rests with how you define "man". You are using the word but you are not defining what it is.

I need a specific checklist of what you need in order to be a "man".

I guarantee you 100% that if I took your list to some of the top biogeneticists in the country, all of them would disagree with your list. I will and I have. They all disagree with each other as well. There is no consensus on which genetic marker makes you a "man" or not.


You can say you don't care how the word is defined, but the way you're using the word is different than how other people define the word. If we don't have a consensus on what different words mean, then we can't communicate and we have misunderstandings.

"men" is used to describe a role. Anyone can step up into this role. The "Man" can actually be any race and any sex. You ever seen black people get pissed at other blacks that sell out? A black person can, and often do, assume the role of the white oppressor.

"Fuck Tha Police" by N.W.A.? Black police showing out for the white cop? Sound familiar?

The premise of gender study is that we all aspire to be better than who we are by what we do.

Like Dr. King said. We shouldn't judge peopleby the colour of their skin, but instead by the contents of their character as illustrated by how they help their fellow human beings.

We don't judge people by who they are, but what they do. Everyone can make themselves better than what history has shown us. Just because your skin is white and you have a penis doesn't mean you're doomed for life. You have the same opportunity to treat human beings with decency and respect as everyone else.

Just because you're not a white male doesn't mean you have some kind of debt owed to you by society. You have to work just as hard as everyone else.


Being a "man" is not what you are, but what you do.

"Step up, son. Be a man. Face your responsibilities".

You never hear: "Run away from your responsibilities. You're still a man because you have a penis".

You would never hear your respectable elders say this.


Of course you'll hear things like: "One man is a dog. Therefore, all men are dogs. Men are all the same." Instead of walking away, this is an opportunity for you to step up to show those stupid people that you can be better than what they expect you to be.

If you are a true alpha-male, you would dominate this situation and show them what's up instead of running away. It's pretty much your cue that some stupid people need schooling.


Gender study is about social progress. We need to get over social stereotypes and see each person as an individual capable of being good or bad.

It's exactly like you said. One bad apple doesn't spoil the barrel.

Any question?

[g6civcx]

good point. But technology cant replace everything. Some things are still going to require hands on works

In the Louisiana bayou, there is a small fishing village consisting of several hundred mostly Southeast Asian immigrants. This hundreds or so people supply the US with most of the 30% of our seafood that come from this area.

Now I know these people personally through their relatives.

These guys are hardcore. They're ultra old school. They don't use any modern technology.

They find fish the way they have done so for hundreds of not thousands of years.

It's crazy. They tell me stuff like they'll listen to the wind current and know where the big schools of fish are. No sonar fishfinders.


Most of their competitors use ultra-high tech fishing vessels, but they still outfish their competition using old school techniques.


Technology only solves some of our problems. Not all our problems. Only some.

[kingkilburn]

The problem with woman's studies is that they are trying to use science to back up their opinion(generally hardcore feminism) rather than using science to explain a specific behavior. It is not proper sociology or anthropology and usually if you say this you are called chauvinistic.

We all instinctively know what a man is. There are gray areas but generally you know. It's the same as some men saying they have "gaydar". You believe with a good level of certainty that this guy is gay but when asked what the criteria is it is very hard to explain. The fact that you can't fully explain the feeling doesn't negate it.


I do not refute that male chauvinism exists but the idea that the same behavior is not possible in a "woman" is offensive to me.

[ripnbst]

Legal citizens should just start going around killing illegals. Law enforcement would probably not be real inclined to do a very thorough investigation. If we made America more dangerous for them than Mexico they would think twice about coming here.

The hardest part about this is determining their immigration status. If you havent figured it out yet I am for the laws.

[zeitgeist]

Ripnbust stfu. People with your mindset are the problem with the world

In the Louisiana bayou, there is a small fishing village consisting of several hundred mostly Southeast Asian immigrants. This hundreds or so people supply the US with most of the 30% of our seafood that come from this area.

Now I know these people personally through their relatives.

These guys are hardcore. They're ultra old school. They don't use any modern technology.

They find fish the way they have done so for hundreds of not thousands of years.

It's crazy. They tell me stuff like they'll listen to the wind current and know where the big schools of fish are. No sonar fishfinders.

Exactly. Great example

[g6civcx]

The problem with woman's studies is that they are trying to use science to back up their opinion(generally hardcore feminism) rather than using science to explain a specific behavior. It is not proper sociology or anthropology and usually if you say this you are called chauvinistic.

I would not call you chauvinistic; I would call you ignorant. Spend time and understand the people you criticise. If gives your argument more credibility.

We all instinctively know what a man is. There are gray areas but generally you know.

No, it is not instinctive. The "gray" area is HUGE. As high as 30 or even 40% of the population have sex discrepancy issues.

How do I know? I worked 5 years in a major hospital documenting abnormal births. Seen the baby with the penis in the back? That came from the ward I worked at.

It's the same as some men saying they have "gaydar". You believe with a good level of certainty that this guy is gay but when asked what the criteria is it is very hard to explain. The fact that you can't fully explain the feeling doesn't negate it.

There are two types of "gay" people: 1) people who want to conform to society's standards, and 2) people who just want to be left alone.

Most of what you're talking about is #1. These people are stupid. I'll tell it to their face. They're making the gay discrimination worse when they talk bullshit like this.


I do not refute that male chauvinism exists but the idea that the same behavior is not possible in a "woman" is offensive to me.

Did you read anything I wrote?

You either didn't read or didn't understand. So you're either lazy or stupid. Stop being lazy!

You said the same thing I said. There's nothing to argue or refute.

[kingkilburn]

I'm just giving you my reaction to what my experience was. I tried twice to take a Woman's studies class and had to drop because of the ridiculous rhetoric from the instructors. I had a similar experience with a black studies teacher so I didn't even sign up for that one.

The physical gray area is larger than people think but socially I have only had a few occasions where I couldn't figure out what the situation was at a glance but I do see your point here.

[g6civcx]

I'm just giving you my reaction to what my experience was. I tried twice to take a Woman's studies class and had to drop because of the ridiculous rhetoric from the instructors. I had a similar experience with a black studies teacher so I didn't even sign up for that one.

I give you credit for at least trying. I am sorry that you feel that way in your experience.

For an introductory course the instructor should focus more on helping each student recognise the student's perspective. You have to know where you're coming from first. Then in the later courses you can start dissecting and analyzing why you perceive things the way you do. Then we can start having a true discussion.

I know what you're talking about. I take issues with these self-proclaimed feminists whose purpose is to only alienate everyone else. I take them on every opportunity I get.

Feminism is all-inclusive and welcomes everyone regardless of background. People who persecute you for who you are are not true feminists.

We need more people like you to participate to fix the problem you're talking about.

[dsastr_clan]

I'm totally against illegal immigration, but i dont think that the SB 1070 is the solution to this issue due to the fact that promotes, enables racial profiling and stereotyping. The SB 1070 enable all police agencies in AZ and State clerks to pretty much become immigration agents and enables also the state to take legal action against them if they dont follow the bill.

After reading your posts and comments i can tell that some of you may be under the wrong assumption, it would be ideal if a police officer check your legal status after being pulled over cuz u have infringed a law. But thats not the case on the SB 1070 states that anybody that "looks suspicious" would have to be requested to provide proof of legal status, " LOOKS SUSPICIOUS " how are they gonna base their facts on the individual that "looks suspicious"?? well they have been instructed to detained all non majority look alike individuals. This is very unconstitutional and illegal.

i believe this great nation is hurting now because of all is going on around i dont argue the fact that we are wanting to eradicate one of our issues, but when you start violating, and bending the constitution that makes you no different than the people the violates our laws to stay here illegally.

I dont wanna be pulled over multiple times because i look different that you do when i have not done anything illegal, i dont wanna be force to provide multiple forms of documents to show that im here legally ( passports etc and all that crap is super expensive if i loose it and it would be awful if those documents get lost and somebody steals my identity) and i dont wanna be taken to jail just cuz i dont have all those documents at once. ( it has happened already, US citizens that look latino have been taken to jail cuz they didnt have 2 or more than 2 forms of documents) i have family that comes to visit me in the US as tourists i dont want my family to be targeted as possible illegal immigrant suspects just because they dont speak English.

[ranger240]

Ripnbust stfu. People with your mindset are the problem with the world



Exactly. Great example

sure, but i'm taking about people being paid next to nothing to pick strawberries. simple tasks that can easily be mechanized. Cotton picking used to be done under terrible labor conditions, now one guy in an A/C'd cab does the work that countless slaves were forced to do. thats PROGRESSSsssss, not having illegal labor in our economy is also PROGRRRREEEESsssSSss

besides i was never talking about guys who do Deadliest Catch stuff..

http://davebrendon.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/terminator_robot.jpg

could never replace guys like this

http://nickinasia.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/forrest-gump-shrimping1.jpg

[g6civcx]

I'm not attacking you so don't take this personal.

You first said this:

technology can supplement workers, if people out there really want to argue that we need thousands of people to pick strawberries because nobody in america can develop a better way, well then your opinion of america is so messed up theres no point arguing with you, go read a book

Then you said this:

sure, but i'm taking about people being paid next to nothing to pick strawberries. simple tasks that can easily be mechanized.

besides i was never talking about guys who do Deadliest Catch stuff..


I am having problems following your argument.

Are you commenting about simple tasks in general? strawberry picking in particular? all tasks?

It seems like your first statement was talking about strawberry and orange. Your statement was also very open ended because you didn't say that there are tasks that cannot be mechanized.

At best, you said that jobs would be eliminated to be replaced with other jobs. You never actually said that some jobs cannot be eliminated.

Now you say that you're not talking about deadliest catch guys.


I'm having trouble following your logic.


1. What task(s) do you think can be mechanised?

2. What task(s) do you think canNOT be mechanised?

3. If you gave an answer for #2, does this answer contradict with your original statement:

if people out there really want to argue that we need thousands of people to pick strawberries because nobody in america can develop a better way, well then your opinion of america is so messed up theres no point arguing with you, go read a book

[ranger240]

i respect the fact that you presented sound counters to my last point. you without question put more intelligent thought into your statement than i did in mine. it had the terminator and forest gump quoted in it after all.

my ''deadliest catch'' stuff was reference to the points made about those Louisiana fisherman who use instinct to fish, though thats really different philosophizing about intelligence/whatever/blah blah blah


my core point is... people mistakenly argue that we need this cheap illegal labor or else prices will skyrocket and everything will turn into mayhem. all i really want to submit to this discussion is the notion that "capital investment" (i.e. guys buying or developing new mechanical equipment) serves as a substitute for labor.


from an economic perspective the argument that we need deflated-wage'd jobs outside of labor laws to be an efficient country makes me upset with such ignorance, hence why i mirrored that argument to a hypothetical mid 19th century one on slavery. (obviously that isnt considering varying magnitudes between 'voluntary' illegal labor and slavery).


anyway, off to bed... hope this response is sufficient to present my stance in a moderate and quazi-rational light


basically, we dont need this illegal labor, its presence via lack of law enforcement is what has enabled and forced it to become industry standards.

when that cheap labor no longer exists and every employee is protected by minimum wage laws, then mechanization will compensate for increased labor costs supplementing workers


enough of beating a dead horse, i gotta get to bed and its just diluting my argument

I'm not attacking you so don't take this personal.

You first said this:



Then you said this:



I am having problems following your argument.

Are you commenting about simple tasks in general? strawberry picking in particular? all tasks?

It seems like your first statement was talking about strawberry and orange. Your statement was also very open ended because you didn't say that there are tasks that cannot be mechanized.

At best, you said that jobs would be eliminated to be replaced with other jobs. You never actually said that some jobs cannot be eliminated.

Now you say that you're not talking about deadliest catch guys.


I'm having trouble following your logic.


1. What task(s) do you think can be mechanised?

2. What task(s) do you think canNOT be mechanised?

3. If you gave an answer for #2, does this answer contradict with your original statement:

[iamtheyi]

I'm fine with illegals being here. I just don't want to get anything that we pay tax for. So don't pass that AZ but make a new law stating people who do not have proper citizenship don't get medical care or anything of that sort that tax money goes towards. Unless they can pay for it..

[high boost hero]

Make's me feel welcome to move to the states...... suit is black .....pause ...NOT

[VNG704]

Shouldn't it be the employer's job to make sure illegals are legal citizens like any other lie on the job application? Just to be clear, illegals don't take jobs from us, employers give them jobs.

I'm all for making it harder for illegal immigrants to enter the country but the stricter you try to be, the harder it is to not be racist.... it seems.

[Walperstyle]

The reason why nobody cared in the first place is because nobody wanted to do the low end jobs. So they allowed anyone to come in when times were good to work the service jobs.

..and now that whitey wants his job back, they are wanting to kick out everyone that is working for the past 10 years or so.

I totally agree that if you don't have a passport, you really shouldn't be working in the country, and should gtfo. Spoken from a Canadian Perspective. We have similar problems.

http://i.imgur.com/D7572.jpg

[iamtheyi]

^ lol... nice..