For all you Megan Racing Coilover Users... Read this

[slider2828]

This is a side by side comparison of the differences in just changing springs.... Swift Springs ARE basically the best springs on the market and this is why just upgrading the springs will REALLY help those MR coilovers....

Although this is for mini's they use the same diameter shock tubes....

In the end....

MR Coilver Springs are:
ID = 62mm
height =
180mm front
200mm rear
8/6 for street coilover series
12/10 for track coilover series

Replacement's use ID 65mm (Confirmation from Swift themselves) and retain same specs, but from all the research I have done, S13's weights are lighter, so I would go 10/8's...

MINI COOPER :: North American Motoring - Swift Springs dynoed (http://www.northamericanmotoring.com/forums/suspension/157535-swift-springs-dynoed.html)

Well I posted on another thread that I would in detail explain the substantial difference between Swift springs, and all other springs. So here it is.

I really don't know where to start with this but Ill just jump into it.
I have tested out many different types of suspension systems. One of the biggest factors in the entire suspension system is of course the Spring.

There are a few factors to look into when it comes to springs.
-stroke
-accuracy of spring rate
-weight

Now I'm sure most of you are aware of the spring binding problem with megan and the BC coilover system. Well that is completely a spring issue, most companies totally cheap out on the springs of the suspension systems especially the more inexpensive ones.

I have dynoed pretty much every springs I can get my hands on. So I can show you the differences of them. ......

[R_G]

cool info, thanks

[slider2828]

Lol took me 2 years to find the right ID.... going to be ordering 10/8's next month and slap them on....

[ALEXTHESUS*PECT]

you have to contact megan first and see if they are dampened correctly for a 12 springs. on average a spring difference of 2 is ok and no more. so if it's 8 then 6 or 10 but not 12.

[Matej]

My front springs are Stance.
They are a wrong diamater; 65mm I believe; but they were cheap. :)

However, I have never heard of spring binding issues with Megan coilovers.

[slider2828]

Anything that approachs binding will reduce stroke.... Stroke is super important when in any surface. Because swift reduces the amount of coils but still retain linear spring rates, they can increase stroke without changing length of spring or spring rates....

Trust me megan coils suck.... ever lift a car with megans of them and they have no droop or go up a curb and you go 3 wheeling, its because there is no stroke....

All megans can go +/- 2kg/mm as per their site.....

Hence I am going with 10/8 or maybe 11/9 on MR Tracks which shipped 12/10.....

Also way less unsprung weight for all the springs so it rebounds and compresses during weight transitions much faster. It makes wheels stick to the ground longer....

[santosspl]

Where can we buy these cheap???




Help some people out from the swift manual.. PART #'s




180 millimeters = 7.08661417 inch
200 millimeters = 7.87401575 inch
7" LENGTH
Z65-178-080 8.0 4 48 93 3.7 117 4.6 936 2,064 0.99 2.18
Z65-178-090 9.0 5 04 89 3.5 117 4.6 1,049 2,314 1.05 2.32
Z65-178-100 10.0 5 60 86 3.4 116 4.6 1,157 2,551 1.10 2.43
8" LENGTH
Z65-203-080 8.0 4 48 107 4.2 128 5.0 1,025 2,259 1.31 2.89
Z65-203-090 9.0 5 04 102 4.0 128 5.0 1,152 2,540 1.35 2.98
Z65-203-100 10.0 5 60 100 3.9 125 4.9 1,250 2,756 1.47 3.24
Z65-203-110 11.0 6 16 92 3.6 126 5.0 1,389 3,063 1.48 3.26
Z65-203-120 12.0 6 72 92 3.6 125 4.9 1,496 3,299 1.51 3.33

[slider2828]

The best place I have found is evasivemotorsports.com. 360+ cali tax + shipping....

[d0pe240]

My front springs are Stance.
They are a wrong diamater; 65mm I believe; but they were cheap. :)

However, I have never heard of spring binding issues with Megan coilovers.

have stances front and rear, with shorter springs in the front. indeed they are 65 mm. ride is great, i have the track versions.

[!Zar!]

Why Swift springs?

Why not go Hypercoil? Cheaper and still great quality stuff.

[Fatboy Garage]

All Pm Sent!!!!

[SoSideways]

Why Swift springs?

Why not go Hypercoil? Cheaper and still great quality stuff.

Because Swift is JDM and Hypercoil isn't?

Much like how Eibach isn't JDM, thus no street cred.

[240sxvaj]

Because Swift is JDM and Hypercoil isn't?

Much like how Eibach isn't JDM, thus no street cred.


lol! :bigok::Ownedd:

[[email protected]]

Its funny that you mention that megan racing told me the same thing. Get swift springs for best suspension set-up

[PoorMans180SX]

Why Swift springs?

Why not go Hypercoil? Cheaper and still great quality stuff.

Did you read the article?

Swift springs were off by 5lbs.

Hypercoils were off by 15lbs. (Yes I know that's not a lot, but still)

Swift springs have way less coils, so more suspension stroke.

You get what you pay for. Swift Springs are the best you can buy, therefore they are more expensive.

[slider2828]

I mean seriously... do people even know the differences on the street.... Like the premie rant said... paraphrase from CodyAce...

Roll in to a meet with his rocket ship and another S14 guy told him nice car. Then the kid asked Cody, what suspension you running, Cody said I built it with Koni's and GC's... The kid said why not put in some nice suspension and look into HKS....

Really.... General Pop wouldn't know the difference.... But its just I thought it was a great article and independent tested via grassroots....

I mean like said, Track vs. General Pop.... I don't dislike megans, but their suspension stroke sucks cause even at 12/10 the suspension really doesn't move and if you look at FEED Rx7, they are using 14/14 and still no complaints about suspension stroke and it settled really nice in the videos I watch of it.... Personally I doubt the shocks are blown and I am sure they still move so it lead me to believe something is wrong with the spring...

Lone and Behold this Mini thread which I thought was AWESOME.... and it is....

[slider2828]

Also if anyone has any doubts, here is exactly why they are better than others.

Swift Springs USA (http://www.swiftsprings.net/advantage.html)

Videos of on car suspension stroke tests, not just a dyno.......

H5S.TW
Motorsport's most advanced spring material


Swift made a name for itself on the tracks of Asia, Europe, and U.S. by defying all accepted concepts and speculations about the future, if any, in coil spring science.
When many other company were looking at expensive and brittle titanium composites to create the next evolution of springs, Swift was looking at reinventing the entire science of coil spring dynamics. Swift saw that most others are using the old regular silicone chrome material, which was not strong enough. It used a heat tempering method that damaged the strength of the material that requiring more coils, in turn, more weight.
The material was also suffering from a short life span. With springs like this leading the industries, Swift saw room for improvement.

Swift's R & D team created material, called H5S.TW, which is stronger then regular silicone chrome material. Because of this material, we could make the spring wire thinner, and could wind the springs with fewer coils, which greatly decreased weight while dramatically increasing available stroke.

Barrel Design
Isn't the barrel design heavier? Not on Swift. Still one of the lightest!!

All of Swift Standard 10” and longer Coilover springs are barrel design; the design is to solve all spring bowing problems. With bowing springs, you can expect spring rate inconsistency, and rubbing against shock body that would lead to damages on the shock adjusting perch thread. (Except Swift Drag racing springs)

One approach would be to increase the number of coils on the springs. With more coils on the spring, you will experience less bowing motion. This is the easy and cheaper method to solve the issue. But the downside of this method is a decrease in suspension stroke, increase in un-sprung mass, and will effect the overall movement of other suspension components.

Unlike others, Swift designed barrel springs with one common rule, which is all the barrel springs design have a maximum of 4” OD. Because most other manufacture do not design their barrel springs with this rule. Most of their barrel springs outside diameter will differ from one rate to another. This creates a hard time for racers to test and see which rates will fit and which rate does not. A heavier rate spring tends to interfere with the suspension A-arm or other suspension components.

Generally speaking, the barrel designed springs tend to be heavier in weight than straight shape springs, but Swift coil springs will never have this problem because of our world leading coiling technology .

[!Zar!]

Interesting. I though the test/talk was only towards Megan vs Swift.

But as for the price, I don't think 15lbs is enough for most weekend warriors to notice. So Hypercoil is still for me... I would like to know how consistent each companies springs are.

[slider2828]

Sorry Mel, gotta read the whole thread and I know its long but good info. But by far, swift was able to have the most stroke in the spring, meaning the ability for it to compress the furthest distance because of the shape of the design. Also was the most consistent throughout the stroke....

I think hypercoils are nice too, I LOVE their hydaulic perches too, but springs, I gotta give it to Swift...

One thing I gotta say, springs are like Monitors or LCD's buy once use on different computers, coils buy it and you can use it on all sorts of Dampner... Springs for megans using 65mm, but they fit most of the stances gr+ gr pros, PBMs, I think greddy's, and couple of others too...

So why not spend it.... I like PBM's cause they sell the dampner to swap out when blown.... No rebuild, just through the blown away ahahah...

Also I would love helper springs on the rear... Keep the car more planted... but eh... those are $$$

[icedsole]

cool thread, i will def be buying the SWIFT springs for my megan tracks after reading this!


ps do i get 60mm or 65mm? im not too bright on this shit.

[homeslicej2]

Good info. I've known for some time that Swift springs were good. Also, SPLparts sells them in 60 and 65mm ID in various lengths and spring rates for $170 a pair

[SoSideways]

That's good and dandy that the Swift springs will give you more suspension travel, but really, how many 240s will benefit from them?

Most everyone's car on this forum are like 2" from the ground.

If the Sprint springs will give you 4" of travel versus having only 3" of travel with the stock Stance springs or whatever, you're still hitting the ground with your frame first, or your tires hitting the chassis somewhere.

So yeah, while they are lighter, which is a plus there already since springs can be part of the unsprung weight, are they going to be $170 for a pair better?

For some people that's not an issue, but for some others, that $170 can be spent on something else.

Just saying.

[Def]

Did you read the article?

Swift springs were off by 5lbs.

Hypercoils were off by 15lbs. (Yes I know that's not a lot, but still)

Swift springs have way less coils, so more suspension stroke.

You get what you pay for. Swift Springs are the best you can buy, therefore they are more expensive.

So ironic that you guys are spending nearly $400 on springs for a set of $850ish pair of dampers to fix a problem that *ANY* coil spring will experience when being compressed. BTW - Hypercoils and Eibachs are on $1 mil+ racecars, they are plenty good enough for an S13 on some super cheap Chinese made coilovers.

What you guys need are a set of thrust bearings somewhere between your spherical bearing on the camber plate/shock mount and the lower spring seat to allow the spring to naturally wind and unwind as they compress(all coil springs in the world do this due to their geometry). It does make a difference.

I've got some Vorshlag upper spring seats with thrust bearings up front and torrington bearings in the rear of my setup. Springs rotate freely and compress easily.

[slider2828]

You use 65mm.... Read the thread first...

@Def, I am thinking about those hydraulic perches from hyper coils, but I will look at thrust bearings and torringtons...

But seriously, I think springs will help and will make a difference.... But its worth a try, if not I can always reuse them some where else....

$170 a pair isn't too bad.... But keeping in mind about roll center and ride height is huge too...

[Weedm]

I 3 wheel with my Megan Tracks all the time, and that is with an open diff. Sucks. Swift springs huh? Cool. Something to consider.

[SoSideways]

You use 65mm.... Read the thread first...

@Def, I am thinking about those hydraulic perches from hyper coils, but I will look at thrust bearings and torringtons...

But seriously, I think springs will help and will make a difference.... But its worth a try, if not I can always reuse them some where else....

$170 a pair isn't too bad.... But keeping in mind about roll center and ride height is huge too...

You don't have to worry about roll center with Def, nor his spring/damper setup.

He has the 8611/8610 setup, along with his custom roll center adjusting FLCAs. His setup is money.

[Def]

You use 65mm.... Read the thread first...

@Def, I am thinking about those hydraulic perches from hyper coils, but I will look at thrust bearings and torringtons...

But seriously, I think springs will help and will make a difference.... But its worth a try, if not I can always reuse them some where else....

$170 a pair isn't too bad.... But keeping in mind about roll center and ride height is huge too...

You've got to be kidding me at putting hydraulic spring perches on a set of Megans!!! :rofl:

Those things are about $700 for 4, which is how much your whole set of coilovers cost. Plus they need to rebuilt every 10-20 HOURS of use. That's right, you went to the grocery store and back, you just used up 1 hour of your rebuild window. They are absolutely NOT for street cars. Torrington bearings are hard enough to keep clean with flushing them out every few thousand miles - not hard, but it is maintenance to keep them working well.

Let me save you some trouble since you seem to actually want a decent suspension, save up for something that's worth a crap and get some GOOD dampers on the car and just sell your Megans. Even something like a Koni 8610 front/Koni yellow or Bilstein rear wouldn't be much more expensive than what you're talking about donig and absolutely blow a set of "modded" Megans away.

Please, spend some time at Nissan Road Racing Forums - Powered by vBulletin (http://www.nissanroadracing.com) if you really want to learn about suspension that doesn't suck. Trust me, Megans are absolute junk dampers - there is just no other way to describe them.

[SoSideways]

I was just thinking about this last night Def.

Torrington bearings.... how hard are they to clean and keep clean?

[Def]

They aren't that bad. I just drop my spring perch every couple thousand miles and give them a good spray with WD-40. Seems to get most of the grit out. Then re-oil with a little bit of light machine oil(like All-in-One oil).

My car is not a daily driver though, so it's not a huge issue for me.

If I put over say 5k miles on the car a year I'd probably just get another set of Vorshlag spring hats with a thrust bearing integrated into them that's sealed.

http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/433902222_Rrqfy-L.jpg

That's the spring hats on the bottom, but I have the thinner "race" bearing to reduce the stack height.

[SoSideways]

Yeah I do daily drive my car... as a matter of fact, it's going to pull double duty as a DD and track car, so I guess I will look into the "Vorshlag spring hats with a thrust bearing integrated into them that's sealed" :)

What do you think about these though Def?


Swift spring thrust washers use a composite washer to allow the spring to freely wind/un-wind as the spring is compressed, reducing noise and improving performance. The washers are placed between the spring and the upper and lower spring perch. Order the appropriate ID to match the springs. Consists of 4 metal and 4 composite washers, enough to fit 1 pair (ie.2) of springs.

http://www.splparts.com/main4/parts/Universal/Suspension/Coilovers/SwiftThrustWashers.jpg


I'm guessing the metal washers sandwich the composite washer, and the composite washer is supposed to be teflon lined or made out of teflon like material or something, and thus is naturally slippery?

I'm just guessing, but if these work, they might be a better solution to street cars than the torringtons.

[Def]

Never had experience with them, so I can't say if they really work well or not. My guess is there is enough force on them that they aren't going to really rotate easily. Might stop really bad popping and whatnot, but if you've got a bunch of grit in there anyway, I imagine they just don't work as well as even dirty torrington bearings.

[slider2828]

I do spend a lot of time on NRR... Whatever parts I buy, I think it will be transferrable to any other setup... Granted it takes a 65mm springs... Don't get me wrong I love what you are doing with the setup and all the spherical stuff you have, but I like to drive my car on the street and track.... I almost daily my car and track like once every other month....

Irregardless, its working with what people have... What I am writing here is information for what people bought or already have since this thread is worthy for anyone that can fit a 65mm. Some people didn't piece theirs together and its a forum where people learn. Really there is no need to be high and mighty about 8610 8611's whatever....

Its just for people to learn....

[Def]

I do spend a lot of time on NRR... Whatever parts I buy, I think it will be transferrable to any other setup... Granted it takes a 65mm springs... Don't get me wrong I love what you are doing with the setup and all the spherical stuff you have, but I like to drive my car on the street and track.... I almost daily my car and track like once every other month....

Irregardless, its working with what people have... What I am writing here is information for what people bought or already have since this thread is worthy for anyone that can fit a 65mm. Some people didn't piece theirs together and its a forum where people learn. Really there is no need to be high and mighty about 8610 8611's whatever....

Its just for people to learn....

My car on 500/380 lb/in (9.2/6.6 kg/mm) rates is MUCH more streetable than any Stance/KTS/Megan/K-Sport etc. equipped S chassis I've every ridden in. Good dampers go a LONG way towards making the car ride better. Spending $400 on springs with trash dampers really won't make a difference, so I'm only trying to help you save money.


If you do want to get different spring rates, just get any 2.5" ID
spring in about the same length and whatever rate you want from either Eibach or Hypercoil. Both are super high quality. If you want an easy conversion from lb/in to kg/mm, just divide the lb/in value by 56 to get the approximate kg/mm value.

If you want to spend money on your dampers, put it in a savings account and save up for some that are at least decent. No point in banging your head against a wall when your main "weak link" (bad dampers) will remain.

[slider2828]

Well just came back from a track day and the springs and thrust bearings made a whole helluva difference.... Definitely has a lot better traction through the corner, at high speed corners and cornere exit.... Breaking distance I think was the same....

You can get teh thrust bearings by qa1 on summit for $25 a corner. Top and bottom I bought for all 4 corners. By the way this is in comparison to running megan springs about 3 months ago... I track pretty often and CAN tell the difference.... Dampening settngs this time remained the same... just spring change and alignment....

I have ridden in KW V3 and Stance GR Pros.... This was close to the V3 but definitely felt better than Stance...

Oh wellz.... Only way to compare is to have both cars on the track...

[shinobis13hb]

i just changed my tanabe springs out for eibachs just got 8 k in the rear the over all diffrence is good on street and driving performence.i am impressed with the quality too

[NINJAS14]

Here is another post this guy did comparison between Swift and Vogtland spring.
Anyways in the second little section he talks about the comparison between the Hipercoils and Eibach.

How to Finally Get Performance Out of Your KW Coilovers - E46Fanatics (http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=778203)

I agree though even in my experience the same spring rate Swift feels like much smoother than the Eibach ERS.

[PoorMans180SX]

Huh. Funny how the guy on the bimmer forums says KW is a mediocre budget coil.

[GabeS14]

posi rep for you..it just went up a few green squares!!


haha
flash back..

[slider2828]

Awesome!!! Springs make pretty much all the difference I think... Then you can move to adjusting rebound/compression after that.... Gotta have a good spring first, then all else is preference after that.... Great add!!!

[gijoe69]

where and what part # to buy for megans thanks

[slider2828]

There are no part numbers.... its 65mm swift springs... 10/8 mmkg.... that is it read the first post...

[NINJAS14]

::TF★ - SWIFT Springs / Whiteline / Stoptech / DBA / Hawk / CL Brakes / Energy:: - NASIOC (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2088552&highlight=swift)

Take a look at post number 5.

Touge Factory is having a sale and its super freaking cheap only for this weekend.

I got my set already. But you guys should look into it. 60dollars a spring is insane.

Anyways for the part number all you need is to know the length of the spring if you already know your id and spring rate. The length is in mm

6inch- 152mm
7inch- 178mm
8inch- 203mm

I dont think your going to be going any higher than that.

So lets say you want a 6 inch 10kg spring with a 65mm id.
then the part number is
Z65-152-100

and a 7inch 12kg with a 65mm ID.
Z65-178-120

Anyways just giving you guys a heads up about the sale.

[slider2828]

60 dollars!!! that is INSANE!!! Mine were like 90 each...

Ninja put review on the springs here when you install them.... What spring rate you get?

[gearhead55]

wait so what length spring would i get for an apexi n1 exv coilover?

I'm pretty sure they are made in the same factory as the megans and use the same springs. I think they are roughly equivalent to the megan streets and i'd like slightly softer springs since the spring quality is better.

Thanks for any help!

btw that mini article on sold me on using this spring.

[NINJAS14]

I have been using Swift springs for a while now. These springs even though are linear they are significantly more comfortable than the other springs on the market. I have used to use Hipercoil spring and Eibach ERS. Now I am in the middle of converting all the springs over the Swift. I am running on 12kg front and 10 kg rear. But I want to hold onto a pair of 8k, 9k, and 14k on hand so that is what I purchased.

I know your asking about what spring length to use but what I like to do is get the shortest spring possible that would fit on both front and rear of the shocks and run the same length all around. That way you can swap the front springs over to the rear or vise versa if you want to change up your setup. I run a few different race tracks over here so on the high speed courses I raise up the rates for better high speed stability and for the low speed technical courses I like to run slightly softer springs so that the tires can dig in better and let the suspension do a little more work.

Anyways the biggest differences between these springs and all the other springs out on the market is that apparently these springs are not made of normal silicone steel. In fact I have spoken to the tech guy over there at Swift and he described in detail over there differences between the Swifts and all the other springs on the market. He explained that the ALMS teams that use their springs noticed right off the bat that their tire temperatures were running cooler. And that when circle track teams first use the Swift springs they never want to tell their competitors because it made such a big difference in their track times.

But the biggest difference that we would feel is that the springs feel softer than the springs that were on the car before. In fact its such a big difference that even if you run increased rates they still feel smoother. And thats exactly the advantage to these springs they actually absorb the road surfaces rather than skip over them the way most springs do. That is one of the reasons why I was told of the cooler tire temperatures.

Anyways I run 7inch springs all around. That should be plenty for those of you guys that are confused with what spring length to go with.

[NINJAS14]

wait so what length spring would i get for an apexi n1 exv coilover?

I'm pretty sure they are made in the same factory as the megans and use the same springs. I think they are roughly equivalent to the megan streets and i'd like slightly softer springs since the spring quality is better.

Thanks for any help!

btw that mini article on sold me on using this spring.

Just measure out your coilover spring and see if the 7inch would fit in the front and rear of the coilover. It should! I run Buddyclub Racing Spec Dampers on mine, but I dont think that the shocks are too different. Because I previously had the Megan streets and just swapped the springs over.

Anyways if you are looking for a softer ride. You should look into just getting the same springs rates, you dont even have to run softer rates. It makes a world of a difference. I know its kinda scary to spend that much money on the same rates, but thats what I did on my first megan setup and it made a huge difference in ride quality.

All I know is that you need to hurry if your going to get the springs because the sale ends on Monday. I ordered mine already. Again 60 dollars is a steal from Touge Factory.

[Def]

I have been using Swift springs for a while now. These springs even though are linear they are significantly more comfortable than the other springs on the market. I have used to use Hipercoil spring and Eibach ERS. Now I am in the middle of converting all the springs over the Swift. I am running on 12kg front and 10 kg rear. But I want to hold onto a pair of 8k, 9k, and 14k on hand so that is what I purchased.

I know your asking about what spring length to use but what I like to do is get the shortest spring possible that would fit on both front and rear of the shocks and run the same length all around. That way you can swap the front springs over to the rear or vise versa if you want to change up your setup. I run a few different race tracks over here so on the high speed courses I raise up the rates for better high speed stability and for the low speed technical courses I like to run slightly softer springs so that the tires can dig in better and let the suspension do a little more work.

Anyways the biggest differences between these springs and all the other springs out on the market is that apparently these springs are not made of normal silicone steel. In fact I have spoken to the tech guy over there at Swift and he described in detail over there differences between the Swifts and all the other springs on the market. He explained that the ALMS teams that use their springs noticed right off the bat that their tire temperatures were running cooler. And that when circle track teams first use the Swift springs they never want to tell their competitors because it made such a big difference in their track times.

But the biggest difference that we would feel is that the springs feel softer than the springs that were on the car before. In fact its such a big difference that even if you run increased rates they still feel smoother. And thats exactly the advantage to these springs they actually absorb the road surfaces rather than skip over them the way most springs do. That is one of the reasons why I was told of the cooler tire temperatures.

Anyways I run 7inch springs all around. That should be plenty for those of you guys that are confused with what spring length to go with.

So the same physical spring rate on a spring tester somehow acts "softer" with the Swift spring. That's the biggest load of crap I've ever heard...

If the setup would work better from a softer spring, it just needs a softer spring - end of story. Suspension springs on a car are not very complicated components, there isn't any magic going on inside of them - just basic mechanics of materials.

[NINJAS14]

So the same physical spring rate on a spring tester somehow acts "softer" with the Swift spring. That's the biggest load of crap I've ever heard...

If the setup would work better from a softer spring, it just needs a softer spring - end of story. Suspension springs on a car are not very complicated components, there isn't any magic going on inside of them - just basic mechanics of materials.

LOL.... OK suspension master.

The spring rate is not what gives the softer feel. Its the transient response of the spring. The lag between the shock and spring. And you said it yourself mechanics of material, thats the difference. Read some of the links before you type something stupid.

Also instead of writing "load of crap", buy the spring and test it out for yourself. If you dont feel a difference then swap it back out and sell the Swift spring. If your not willing to do that.... then dont post.

[Def]

LOL.... OK suspension master.

The spring rate is not what gives the softer feel. Its the transient response of the spring. The lag between the shock and spring. And you said it yourself mechanics of material, thats the difference. Read some of the links before you type something stupid.

Also instead of writing "load of crap", buy the spring and test it out for yourself. If you dont feel a difference then swap it back out and sell the Swift spring. If your not willing to do that.... then dont post.

Let me break it down for you since you missed the subtly disguised message in my previous post, YOU ARE TALKING OUT OF YOUR ASS.

You are quick to throw out a bunch of engineering terms with no clue of what you're really saying. It's actually quite amusing for someone that is at least somewhat knowledgable about all this.

So please... tell me how the "transient response of the spring" is different? Or how the "lag between the spring and shock" changes - haha!


To help you out before you furiously google and try to learn WTF you're talking about - the suspension frequencies encountered with a car like ours are so low that it's no where near what the natural frequency of the spring is for something like spring flutter to occur. That's something you typically see in valve springs at VERY high RPM (that's different than valve float BTW). That is the only thing that really changes from a system dynamics perspective when changing spring winding. Steel is all the same stiffness, regardless of the alloy - so there's no change there, only in geometry.

I don't need to buy a spring based on some dumbass on the forum talking about how "the transient response dude... it's like... better... because they like... cost more dude... just throw them on and you'll see..." Right... :ghey:

[codyace]

Also instead of writing "load of crap", buy the spring and test it out for yourself. If you dont feel a difference then swap it back out and sell the Swift spring. If your not willing to do that.... then dont post.

I'm still confused as to how a 'equally rated' item is different from another in regard to their spring rate??

I can't speak for anyone, but I know my dirt track buddies simpply buy the cheapest springs for the desired rate...often times mixing sides so long as they have the desired lb rating on the corner...I've never heard them say 'oh they all need to be Brand A'

It's like saying that a MP3 made by Nero at 192kbps is better than one from Winamp at 192kbps

[Def]

I'm still confused as to how a 'equally rated' item is different from another in regard to their spring rate??

I can't speak for anyone, but I know my dirt track buddies simpply buy the cheapest springs for the desired rate...often times mixing sides so long as they have the desired lb rating on the corner...I've never heard them say 'oh they all need to be Brand A'

It's like saying that a MP3 made by Nero at 192kbps is better than one from Winamp at 192kbps

But it's like... you know... the "transient response" that just makes the bling-bling super marketed spring just work that much better.

[ninjlao]

All of the points you brought up don't pertain to anything in this thread except for the fact that you're talking about springs. You do realize that different metal alloys have different properties which also have different vibration frequencies. Now, if there was only one type of steel, you might have a valid point. But seeing as there are multiple variances and different steel alloys, your argument is completely null. Sorry buddy, but if someone makes a spring out of stainless steel and another makes it out of chromoly steel (which is lighter and stronger, but prone to rusting) can you really say that if they are both rated at 400 lbs/inch, that EVERY inch of compression will be right at +400 lbs/inch and not waver? Or that if you were to fully compress both springs and release them, that one will not expand at a faster rate than the other? Think before you speak. Every metal has different properties that effect how it handles the same condition. This is why many companies choose different materials in terms of manufacturing different automotive components. Race teams use Inconel for their headers, not stainless steel or mild steel, for its high heat tolerance and resistance to heat stress cracks.

In terms of my full compression and expansion analogy, you might be thinking "That's not even worth mentioning because it's milliseconds", but that's exactly why it's worth mentioning. If the roads we drove on were as smooth as glass then there would be no potholes, no pebbles, and smooth sailing regardless of the spring we put on the vehicle. However, because the roads are paved with gravel or asphalt the spring literally reacts in milliseconds to every imperfection in the road.

if you don't know what you're talking about don't bother trying to argue. Kthxbye

[Def]

All of the points you brought up don't pertain to anything in this thread except for the fact that you're talking about springs. You do realize that different metal alloys have different properties which also have different vibration frequencies. Now, if there was only one type of steel, you might have a valid point. But seeing as there are multiple variances and different steel alloys, your argument is completely null. Sorry buddy, but if someone makes a spring out of stainless steel and another makes it out of chromoly steel (which is lighter and stronger, but prone to rusting) can you really say that if they are both rated at 400 lbs/inch, that EVERY inch of compression will be right at +400 lbs/inch and not waver? Or that if you were to fully compress both springs and release them, that one will not expand at a faster rate than the other? Think before you speak. Every metal has different properties that effect how it handles the same condition. This is why many companies choose different materials in terms of manufacturing different automotive components. Race teams use Inconel for their headers, not stainless steel or mild steel, for its high heat tolerance and resistance to heat stress cracks.

In terms of my full compression and expansion analogy, you might be thinking "That's not even worth mentioning because it's milliseconds", but that's exactly why it's worth mentioning. If the roads we drove on were as smooth as glass then there would be no potholes, no pebbles, and smooth sailing regardless of the spring we put on the vehicle. However, because the roads are paved with gravel or asphalt the spring literally reacts in milliseconds to every imperfection in the road.

Like I said before, if you don't know what you're talking about don't bother trying to argue. Kthxbye

I do know what I'm talking about - I'm a degreed engineer (mechanical engineering). I design stuff far more complicated than a simple spring everyday. Are you an engineer?

All steel and steel alloys have the same density for our purposes (a few hundredths of a percent is not significant), they also have the same stiffness (look it up slick, don't worry, we'll wait while you Google it).

Instead of pulling crap out of your ass, why don't you listen to someone that actually knows what they're talking about... which in this thread would be me since I'm 99.99999% sure none of you guys are engineers. If you are, you need to go back to school for a few years and pay attention in machine design and mechanics of materials.

Mechanical properties at elevated temperatures has NOTHING to do with a suspension spring, not sure why you blathered on about it...


Zilvia... home of the :blah::blah::blah: internet "experts" that make stupid analogies

[HS13KLS]

^ Kelso's voice from that 70's show.. "BURN"
haha

Anyways, I hate my megan coils, but my car kinda low, riding on my bump stops.. oh well. fuck it. the car looks cool to me.

[JSimpson]

hypercoil springs are the best. They are made in Indiana and are the highest of quality. I use them on my usac sprint cars and midgets. They are used on every single Indy car and most nascar teams. People can hate on them because they arent JDM but the fact of the matter is what makes the springs the highest quality is the parity between them. If you measure the height of 20 hyperco springs, they will only vary 1mm, if you do the same with eibach or swift they will very as much as 7mm. So if you replace a corner, you know the corner spring will be the exact same height as it was with the previous spring. HYPERCOILS FTWWWW

[codyace]

But it's like... you know... the "transient response" that just makes the bling-bling super marketed spring just work that much better.

That seat of pants feel, always so accurate. Big blocks for life!

hypercoil springs are the best. They are made in Indiana and are the highest of quality. I use them on my usac sprint cars and midgets. They are used on every single Indy car and most nascar teams.

DId you copy paste that from their website?


People can hate on them because they arent JDM but the fact of the matter is what makes the springs the highest quality is the parity between them. If you measure the height of 20 hyperco springs, they will only vary 1mm, if you do the same with eibach or swift they will very as much as 7mm.

Is this something you've personally sat down and measured, or you've read about?

Ultimately, if I'm buying an X" spring at XXX lb rate, I could really care less that one is 1/8" to 1/4" taller...I mean that makes absolutely zero different.


So if you replace a corner, you know the corner spring will be the exact same height as it was with the previous spring. HYPERCOILS FTWWWW

ANy reputable shop or cognisant owner will be re aligning and resetting height after tearing apart a coilover and rebuilding it. Again, 1/4" in total spring height is going to be negliagable at best in determining ride height.

FWIW: No one is doubting the spring manufacture...all we're saying is that a equally rated spring will handle and work the same as any other equally rated spring, this side of Brand A and B being measured by the same scale/machine.

It's amazing to see how confused some are by marketing and flashy wording. Branding..sigh...the true killer of America.

[ninjlao]

I do know what I'm talking about - I'm a degreed engineer (mechanical engineering). I design stuff far more complicated than a simple spring everyday. Are you an engineer?

All steel and steel alloys have the same density for our purposes (a few hundredths of a percent is not significant), they also have the same stiffness (look it up slick, don't worry, we'll wait while you Google it).

Instead of pulling crap out of your ass, why don't you listen to someone that actually knows what they're talking about... which in this thread would be me since I'm 99.99999% sure none of you guys are engineers. If you are, you need to go back to school for a few years and pay attention in machine design and mechanics of materials.

Mechanical properties at elevated temperatures has NOTHING to do with a suspension spring, not sure why you blathered on about it...


Zilvia... home of the :blah::blah::blah: internet "experts" that make stupid analogies

USC, Aerospace and Mechanical engineering (emphasis on metalurgy (Material Science) and your wrong LOL. Unlike yourself I dont use my schooling to backup my data. "I have a ME degree so listen to me" is definitely not the wat we learned in school.

Im done posting here. No point in posting against someone like yourself. Google it yourself and check the different densities of different steels. And that is a good enough simple analogy to see the different uses in metals. Also you should also have the understanding that a spring is not ever composed of one metal.

If people say there is a difference use it for yourself like what NINJA14 said. If your not willing to, throwing up theories does nothing. In fact in suspension tuning itself there is still constant research being done, and even the frequencies of an engine idling can change the spring rates of certain spring. A certain amount of heat can change the reaction of the front spring on a circle track car.

There is more than enough testing I have done to see a difference. Use your ME degree wisely and do your own testing. If not just keep saying a product is bullshit and it sucks, which is really easy to do if you just sit on your ass and do nothing.

I have a lot of experiences in suspension tuning and I am also a suspension consultant for certain ALMS and Grand AM teams, Super late models in the midwest and that is only in the US. I definitely know a little more than most about certain aspects of suspension. The only reason why people come to me about it, is that I will actually go out of my way to test every product out on the market. I provide knowledge in the racefield that people normally don't go into testing. they use what they have. I figure out the best and work with it. I've said this over and over again but I am not a Swift Spring fanboy. I will use other springs if their is better out there. In fact their are companies that are better than Swift, I've tested them. But Renton springs going for about 1500 dollars per spring, does not make it financially feasible for even race teams considering they have about 80 springs per car. If I find a product that is better than Swift at the same price range. I will rave about that instead.

Anyways you can do what you want. It doesn't matter to me. This is a pointless argument that does nothing for me.
Post what you will Im done here.

[SoSideways]

^You have 4 posts.

Where have your contributions to this whole community been, if you have so exhaustively tested out every single spring there is out there to test?

And really, we're driving 240s, not a multimillion dollar race car that changes completely when you didn't tighten a nut fully to 67.432 ft/lbs because your torque wrench was off that day at the track, due to the barometric pressures being different that day.

So yeah, Hypercoil, Eibach, KW, Megan, Stance, Swift, etc. Who cares? It's a spring, is a spring, is a spring, is a spring.

Most people on here should be using a straight pipe welded to the suspension arms anyway for how stiff their springs are and how low their cars are.

[NINJAS14]

MINI COOPER :: North American Motoring - Swift Springs dynoed (http://www.northamericanmotoring.com/forums/suspension/157535-swift-springs-dynoed.html)
How to Finally Get Performance Out of Your KW Coilovers - E46Fanatics (http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=778203)
He made these. That were posted on this thread.

[codyace]

MINI COOPER :: North American Motoring - Swift Springs dynoed (http://www.northamericanmotoring.com/forums/suspension/157535-swift-springs-dynoed.html)
How to Finally Get Performance Out of Your KW Coilovers - E46Fanatics (http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=778203)
He made these. That were posted on this thread.

"FWIW: No one is doubting the spring manufacture...all we're saying is that a equally rated spring will handle and work the same as any other equally rated spring, this side of Brand A and B being measured by the same scale/machine."

So much like we were saying, if the spring is rated and actually 'rated' then it makes almost no difference between the brand.

Now if Brand C is 'rated' and tests out not, then obviously it will be different.

My 'opinion' was based upon the fact that if a spring is truley rated and measured (and the results match the claim), than you will never (at least on our POS cars) know the difference in brand.


I am glad that Ninjlao actually does this sort of testing as it goes to show that the last thing anyone should do is trust what the website of Brand A says. Granted his job certainly helps out with this, but it still goes to show that nothign is out of the box what it says.

[JSimpson]

That seat of pants feel, always so accurate. Big blocks for life!



DId you copy paste that from their website?



Is this something you've personally sat down and measured, or you've read about?

Ultimately, if I'm buying an X" spring at XXX lb rate, I could really care less that one is 1/8" to 1/4" taller...I mean that makes absolutely zero different.



ANy reputable shop or cognisant owner will be re aligning and resetting height after tearing apart a coilover and rebuilding it. Again, 1/4" in total spring height is going to be negliagable at best in determining ride height.

FWIW: No one is doubting the spring manufacture...all we're saying is that a equally rated spring will handle and work the same as any other equally rated spring, this side of Brand A and B being measured by the same scale/machine.

It's amazing to see how confused some are by marketing and flashy wording. Branding..sigh...the true killer of America.

Yes I have measured it, I have lost and won races due to springs being differnt heights or perfect. First off it really doesnt matter the spring rate half as much as the shock. 99% of what you feel is done with the shock. The shock dictates how quickly weight transfers, and where it transfers, the spring simply dictates how much weight goes to that corner. ALSO spring height is by far the most important thing! If you put a 1/4inch taller spring in that corner, the cross weight will be effected massively and that corner will have tons more weight. spring height and corner weights are everything man. In a 240 yeah it is pretty much meaningless because unibody cars are sloppy and flexible anyway, but if you are going to argue a fine tune change to a 240 such as spring manufacturers, scaling your car is the most important thing you can do...

You tune your car in by making changes, if the springs you use (in 25lb increments) are more consistent, so will your changes and ultimately your results

[NINJAS14]

Actually even if you put a spring that is a 1/4 inch taller you can still propperly corner weight the car. It is if your spring sags after you corner weight the car that your corner weights go all over the place.

Also it seems as though your a huge fan of Hiperco, but actually I've seen a hipercoil sag 1/2 an inch on a gale force machine. And continuously get shorter throughout its life.

The thing is with our production vehicles we are nowhere near hard enough on a spring to sag them. So Im sure any spring you run will not sag. I was introduced to the Swift spring by my buddy that runs the West Coast Protruck series in Irwindale. And he told me that his Swift springs he can run on all season but he used to have to swap out springs every 2-3 races on his truck with Hipercos. Sagging is a big issue with the nascar guys, not only because the corner weights gets thrown off, but also becasue they actually measure out the ride height after the race, and if the truck is lower than it originally started then even if they win they are automatically disqualified. Also these Nascar guys are really really hard on the spring. They are coil bound all throughout the corner.



But yes I also agree that on our cars even corner weighting doesn't affect much unless the car is completely stitch welded together. I'm sure there is enough flex in the chassis to throw it off in a corner anyways.

[Def]

USC, Aerospace and Mechanical engineering (emphasis on metalurgy (Material Science) and your wrong LOL. Unlike yourself I dont use my schooling to backup my data. "I have a ME degree so listen to me" is definitely not the wat we learned in school.

Im done posting here. No point in posting against someone like yourself. Google it yourself and check the different densities of different steels. And that is a good enough simple analogy to see the different uses in metals. Also you should also have the understanding that a spring is not ever composed of one metal.

If people say there is a difference use it for yourself like what NINJA14 said. If your not willing to, throwing up theories does nothing. In fact in suspension tuning itself there is still constant research being done, and even the frequencies of an engine idling can change the spring rates of certain spring. A certain amount of heat can change the reaction of the front spring on a circle track car.

There is more than enough testing I have done to see a difference. Use your ME degree wisely and do your own testing. If not just keep saying a product is bullshit and it sucks, which is really easy to do if you just sit on your ass and do nothing.

I have a lot of experiences in suspension tuning and I am also a suspension consultant for certain ALMS and Grand AM teams, Super late models in the midwest and that is only in the US. I definitely know a little more than most about certain aspects of suspension. The only reason why people come to me about it, is that I will actually go out of my way to test every product out on the market. I provide knowledge in the racefield that people normally don't go into testing. they use what they have. I figure out the best and work with it. I've said this over and over again but I am not a Swift Spring fanboy. I will use other springs if their is better out there. In fact their are companies that are better than Swift, I've tested them. But Renton springs going for about 1500 dollars per spring, does not make it financially feasible for even race teams considering they have about 80 springs per car. If I find a product that is better than Swift at the same price range. I will rave about that instead.

Anyways you can do what you want. It doesn't matter to me. This is a pointless argument that does nothing for me.
Post what you will Im done here.

You need to go back to school with all the BS you posted earlier in this thread. I'll leave it at that. :l101:

[JSimpson]

Actually even if you put a spring that is a 1/4 inch taller you can still propperly corner weight the car. It is if your spring sags after you corner weight the car that your corner weights go all over the place.

Also it seems as though your a huge fan of Hiperco, but actually I've seen a hipercoil sag 1/2 an inch on a gale force machine. And continuously get shorter throughout its life.

The thing is with our production vehicles we are nowhere near hard enough on a spring to sag them. So Im sure any spring you run will not sag. I was introduced to the Swift spring by my buddy that runs the West Coast Protruck series in Irwindale. And he told me that his Swift springs he can run on all season but he used to have to swap out springs every 2-3 races on his truck with Hipercos. Sagging is a big issue with the nascar guys, not only because the corner weights gets thrown off, but also becasue they actually measure out the ride height after the race, and if the truck is lower than it originally started then even if they win they are automatically disqualified. Also these Nascar guys are really really hard on the spring. They are coil bound all throughout the corner.



But yes I also agree that on our cars even corner weighting doesn't affect much unless the car is completely stitch welded together. I'm sure there is enough flex in the chassis to throw it off in a corner anyways.

They do not really sag man, Ive used the same exact springs on my sprint cars for years and years and unless you wipe out a corner and bend it, it will never change. The fuel load is far more important in nascar terms of lower ride height plus they have weight jackers which raise and lower the car. Now I have seen some of the ultra soft springs used on the RR of an oval track car get shorter (200lb spring shrunk 1/8inch), but realistically, for our 240s it isnt going to make a bit of difference. Hyperco, Eibach, Swift, there all quality stuff, just preference and availability.

Spring length is probably more important in the case of of a 240 because they roll around alot and require longer springs to avoid coilbind

[slider2828]

I use 7" and 8" inch's... I would go by the coilover spring length provided by the coilover manufacturer.

Please just stop this hate on the board geezus.... There were a couple of elements why I bought the spring:

compression length before coil bind
consistency throughout the entire stroke
and the spring being 1/2 the weight of traditional springs provided by most off the shelf coilover manufacturers....


Those 3 reasons are why I bought them, and am thoroughly ecstatic over them.... If they did NOT make any difference, I wouldn't have said anything.

[NINJAS14]

^agreed.
Thanks for this thread too. lots to learn.

[sftmb]

Quick shout out to slider2828 who convinced me to go after some Swift springs and thrust washers for my Type-X S13 before getting it corner balanced this weekend. I currently use Megan Street coils. I was able to get my set from Touge Factory for $300 flat plus $77 overnight shipping.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/387329_2717754510527_1456937958_2807010_977974238_ n.jpg

I'm going to be installing these 2moro, and doing a write-up/review about these. Right off the bat however, these coils are noticeably different! it's crazy how much lighter they feel. The switch spring is roughly half the weight it feels like. Also one thing that stood out to me was coil thickness and the number of coils in total.

Here's quick shot comparing it to a rear s14 spring I had laying around.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s720x720/393512_2717829392399_1456937958_2807094_69337895_n .jpg

[sftmb]

Finally got around to making a post about changing out my springs for the swift ones! ^_^ This is an AMAZING upgrade, and makes the car feel wayy different. All of the small bumps/vibrations you normally get from most coils are completely gone.

Project Yuki: Swift Springs, Corner Balance, Alignment | Domo Factor (http://domofactor.com/2012/01/project-yuki-swift-springs-corner-balance-alignment/)

[slider2828]

Awesome!!! I am glad you liked the mod!

[Def]

Swift springs on a set of Megan Racing dampers... I'm thinking you would have been better served just getting some better dampers (or "coils" if you prefer) from the getgo.

[slider2828]

I agree with you, but at the time when purchased, megan's were really the only option.... Now maybe PBM pro coils may be the only ones I would buy... unless I really had lots of money to buy zeal functions.... or get an old set of Tein Race Specs, if I could find it.

[Croustibat]

Just adding my 2p here. I have a set of apex performance (not apex'i) , which are basically bc racing ones. I could not find swift springs so i just bought a set of K-sport springs. 100€ for 4, which is quite nice ... so i end up with a pair of 7,6,5 and 4 springs. I was running 5/4, will be running 7/5.

anyway, what i wanted to say is that : they dont sag. Maybe on a dyno, but in real life they dont. After some years of use, my 20cm springs are still 20cm. So they surely arent the best, but hey ... they do the job. If i am still not satisfied, i'll just get these things revalved by bilstein and maybe get swift springs this time :D

[godrifttoday]

I agree with you, but at the time when purchased, megan's were really the only option.... Now maybe PBM pro coils may be the only ones I would buy... unless I really had lots of money to buy zeal functions.... or get an old set of Tein Race Specs, if I could find it.

Def would probably refer u to the koni 8611 setup. I would like to do that all around but I priced things out and it's 2500 bucks 8611 all around. Any links def for less?

[e1_griego]

You can do 8610s and save about $400, and find everything used and save more.

[slider2828]

Yeah I have seen the 8611's and all the veilside housings and stuff.... But its definitely more than 1000 bux.... hard to find for less....

[godrifttoday]

You can do 8610s and save about $400, and find everything used and save more.

Actually no. The 8610 are only 200 less.. The camber arms are 370 front and back and the springs are what cost an arm and a leg 400 bucks! 325 for 8611 each and then cost of the housings,