Downshifting...just read that crazy thread

[Matt_240]

Well, im a noob learning to drive stick since i just got it converted. im 95% self taught so i just do what feels right. when coming to a stop, from say... 3rd, I brake until the car slows to like 20 and i shift to neutral then brake to a stop. is that ok? what about if im in 5th? should i brake to like 35~40, shift to neutral and then brake to a stop? some people in that thread were saying to downshift first, then brake then put in neutral, then brake to a stop. not sure what i should do?

i would also like to learn to downshift. I read the turnfast article on heal-to-toe downshifting. so as long as i rev match, i should be ok when I downshift right?

after reading that thread i just got confused. id really like to downshift cause whenever i throw it into neutral going 30~40, and coast to the stop, it doesn't feel good cause i have no control over the car. also, when im coasting and the light turns green i just depress the clutch and shift to second. Is that proper?

sorry for the bombardment of questions. i guess if im going to learn how to drive, i want to learn it the right way from the start.
any help would be appreciated. thanks - Matt

[legendarysnail]

I shift into neutral (don't release clutch)and brake when I know I'm going to stop, but if I'm turning I'll shift into the gear I am going to need to be in before I turn, just don't let out the clutch. I was taught by my parents, who had been driving sticks for 30+ years.

[mistert]

practice your heel-toe, once you can do it smoothly you will enjoy driving alot more. this way you can brake and downshift at the same time (yes its useful in traffic as well as racing), and of course brake alot later for when youre balling into a turn.

[dartman]

in daily driving there is really no need to downshift when coming to a stop. your brakes are sufficient to bring you to a stop and you don't need to do engine braking. by down shifting for every stop you're only putting undue ware and stress on the trans and the syncros most importantly, and even the clutch if you don't match the revs. when taking a turn that you need to downshift for, personaly i use heel-toe. my two cents.

[Dousan_PG]

Originally posted by dartman
in daily driving there is really no need to downshift when coming to a stop. your brakes are sufficient to bring you to a stop and you don't need to do engine braking. by down shifting for every stop you're only putting undue ware and stress on the trans and the syncros most importantly, and even the clutch if you don't match the revs. when taking a turn that you need to downshift for, personaly i use heel-toe. my two cents.


no you dont. what are you talking about? if you match it correctly, the engine will be runnign higher (lower gear=higher RPM) but there's no 'stress' or 'more stress' on the car..maybe because running the engine higher but it does no damage

i ALWAYS down shift daily driving. it keeps the car ready to move in emergencies as well as keeps practice up

maybe if you downshift too low and forces the engine to brake for you..otherwise, there is no problem w/ it in traffic.

[dartman]

Originally posted by dousan36
no you dont. what are you talking about? if you match it correctly, the engine will be runnign higher (lower gear=higher RPM) but there's no 'stress' or 'more stress' on the car..maybe because running the engine higher but it does no damage

i ALWAYS down shift daily driving. it keeps the car ready to move in emergencies as well as keeps practice up

maybe if you downshift too low and forces the engine to brake for you..otherwise, there is no problem w/ it in traffic.

im not talking about stress that that can mess the car up emediately, im talking about the kind that takes its toll over time. by engine brake i ment simply putting it in a lower gear and letting the cluthc make up the different in speed as you engage. you are also using the sycros twice as much, on up shifts and down shifts) and that puts wares them down, but then again thats just my understanding.

[Dousan_PG]

Originally posted by dartman
im not talking about stress that that can mess the car up emediately, im talking about the kind that takes its toll over time. by engine brake i ment simply putting it in a lower gear and letting the cluthc make up the different in speed as you engage. you are also using the sycros twice as much, on up shifts and down shifts) and that puts wares them down, but then again thats just my understanding.

i agree 100%

yeah that's just stupid to do
that's downshift without rev matching.
that's driving like an idiot newbie (if you are not doing it on purpose).

its also serious abuse on the drivetrain.

also that's NOT how one should drive on a daily condition, revmatch and downshift will not damage your car/drivetrain. daily driving and downshift w/ revmatch is key. a very very important thing to learn/know how to do.

[dartman]

Originally posted by dousan36
i agree 100%

yeah that's just stupid to do
that's downshift without rev matching.
that's driving like an idiot newbie.

its also serious abuse on the drivetrain.
yeah, i may have worded my original post a little wrong. i didn't mean not to downshift at all b/c thats just not posible. :)

[Matt_240]

do you think if i keep trying to match revs and trying to heel-to-toe downshift, i'll get it down before i ruin my tranny? lol. i guess i should just do some image training first.

[Dousan_PG]

just go too high rev matching
if you ovre rev it (meaning rev it too high-not into redline-just rev higher then necessary) you wnot engine brake

practice. it is really simple. just takes practice!

[muskrat]

Imagine downshifting as backward shifting. Like (for example only) if you upshift into second at 20 and 3rd at 30 and 4th at 40 and 5th at 50 then do the opposite for downshifting. 4th at 50, 3rd at 40, 2nd at 30, using your brakes slightly the entire time. Start off doing it controlled like that until you get the feel for your car and can use downshifting more effectively choosing what gear for what speed.

The synchros in your transmission are made for upshifting and downshifting, they will wear just as much in proper downshifting as they will in proper upshifting. Rev matching does take stress off of them, but if you are using proper rev matching you will not even have to use the clutch for up or downshifting.

Downshifting on the road and thus compression braking is good for your brake pads and rotors, a good running engine will not mind the revs and a well shifted transmission will not mind the shifts.

I'd like to know how long some of you who are giving manual transmission advice have been driving a manual transmission.

[Dousan_PG]

about 8 years. learned on manual transmission. drove an auto for under 1 year. the rest is manual
track heavily too so downshift/heal-toe/revmatch/etc a lot...even downshift into first at 15+ mph at the track. :)

[Dousan_PG]

Originally posted by muskrat
The synchros in your transmission are made for upshifting and downshifting, they will wear just as much in proper downshifting as they will in proper upshifting. Rev matching does take stress off of them, but if you are using proper rev matching you will not even have to use the clutch for up or downshifting.

I'd like to know how long some of you who are giving manual transmission advice have been driving a manual transmission.

isnt NOT using the cluch REALLY BAD for the tranny (power shifting). i know a guy who powershifts drag racing and has gone thru a few transmissions...

and you..how many years, should at least answer your own q.....

[Bill Roberts]

I have been driving for 30 years and I do it just like you do Matt but as Dousan says, rev matching (knowing all the speeds you can match intuitively) is good practice for knowing when you need to hit another gear. I use downshifting for sudden acceleration rather than braking...due to all of the facts listed above. In traffic, I see no need to run the tach above 3500 in a d shift. I will D shift to put my tach at or around 2400 to 2800 for a burst of power. In most conditions, I limit my shift RPM at 3500 for normal street driving. If I need to go above that, I am usually at half throttle and getting up to speed in a hell of a hurry.

Very rare do I find heel to toe necessary on the street...but I do get to the track often enough (when I have good extra tires and rims) and do H/T both feet, and parking brake to keep the skill level acceptable.

When racing on the track or flogging, the tach stays around 4500 to 6000 most of the time. This is where all the action is.

The smoother you drive, the longer your car will last. Smoothness on the track = Better times as well.

[muskrat]

Originally posted by dousan36
isnt NOT using the cluch REALLY BAD for the tranny (power shifting). i know a guy who powershifts drag racing and has gone thru a few transmissions...

and you..how many years, should at least answer your own q.....

I am not talking about what you call "power shifting" that sounds really bad. I am talking about there is a certain rpm where you can safely shift without using the clutch, you are not forcing it, it gfoes smoothly into gear. This is achieved at easy driving speeds, not fast driving. Try it sometime from like 2nd to 3rd. Slowly increase speed while lightly pushing the shifter up into 3rd (not hard enough to knock it out of gear) once you hit the exact right speed/rpm the stick will smoothly go into nuetral, then if you are keeping the revs just right it will smoothly go into 3rd.

I have been driving manual transmission for 10 years. On road (cars, trucks, towing), off-road (rock crawling, mudding, water crossing, hill climbs), and at the drag strip (ZC powered CRX on slicks). I drove a 1989 Mustang GT 5.0 for 6 years driving it hard and kept the same stock trans and clutch in it for the entire time.

[DuffMan]

Generally I don't downshift when coming to a light when I know I will be stopping. It's pointless, and does cause wear, even when you rev-match. Turning is a great time to practise your heel toe, because you have to shift anyways. I also downshift, when traffic is slowing but not coming to a stop, because I might need power immediately.

[Dousan_PG]

but not shifting while turning, but before turning
set up entry and exit speeds

[DuffMan]

Well yeah, dont try to shift and turn at the same time, haha.

[nnkfws333]

I dont know but I downshift all the time to slow down and there has been no damage to my car yet. I've got 192,000 miles on my car and Ive raced the thing at the track and abused it and it still runs good. Still has the stock timing chain when it came out of the factory. I can just say it is blessed.

[Dousan_PG]

nnkfws333: me too
177k downshift always. lights, turns, etc
beat the hell out of it at the track. never had any problems :)

[Stee Flo]

I suggest that you learn to rev match when down shifting before you work on your heel-toe downshift. Thats how i learned, makes it abit easier imo. Practice your rev mathing until you can blip the throttle almost perfectly and can downshift with minimal to no engine braking almost every time. Once you get that, practice your heel-toe. Heel-toe requires you to not only rev match correctly, but also to brake and blip the throttle with your right foot angled akwardly making it alittle more challenging at first. If you get the rev matching down first, then heel toe is relatively easy to learn. You just gotta distinquish how much brake and throttle is needed for a smooth heel-toe without sending you and your passenger thrusting foward hard.:p

[Steeles]

Originally posted by dousan36
about 8 years. learned on manual transmission. drove an auto for under 1 year. the rest is manual
track heavily too so downshift/heal-toe/revmatch/etc a lot...even downshift into first at 15+ mph at the track. :)

I've been driving for 11 years now..... drove an auto for 3 and a half of those.. always have downshifted rev match downshifts when Im downshifting for turns or for accelerating sometimes for braking. never just clutch in.. I'd rather just leave it in whatever gear. revs drop quickly with a lightend flywheel. felt like learning all over again...

[YellwMonky]

Originally posted by dousan36
...even downshift into first at 15+ mph at the track. :)

Doesn't it grind shifting into first? When I'm moving even a little bit, and slide it into reverse or first i will sometimes get a grind. it happens mostly in reverse...I'll have the clutch down all the way, but it will still grind.

[Dousan_PG]

Originally posted by YellwMonky
Doesn't it grind shifting into first? When I'm moving even a little bit, and slide it into reverse or first i will sometimes get a grind. it happens mostly in reverse...I'll have the clutch down all the way, but it will still grind.

nope!
2 ways..double clutch
high rev match
rpms WAY up
this is for like a gymkhana style corner..just zip around the cone...come up to it in second gear. slide around the cone and drop down to 1st and power out then upshift to second....

doesnt grind. never has



yeah at a slow roll, reverse will grind. but that's obvious. going forward to reverse...be at a full stop for the sake of your transmission

[muskrat]

Originally posted by YellwMonky
Doesn't it grind shifting into first? When I'm moving even a little bit, and slide it into reverse or first i will sometimes get a grind. it happens mostly in reverse...I'll have the clutch down all the way, but it will still grind.

It won't grind if you rev match high enough, but at that point you are not really downshifting, you have revved up so high you will actually go faster!

[Matt_240]

ok, so i guess im going to try and learn to rev match before i go into heel-toe stuff. so.. i guess i'll just drive around the block and say im in 3rd going 35 at 2000~2300 rpm. i blip the accel to say 2800~3300 rpm, clutch in, shift down to 2nd, let out clutch and it'll be all "g"?

what about when turning? So when you guys turn, you downshift and then turn, and then accelerate?

[azn_romeox]

My friend's are stupid i don't lecture them about the proper way to downshift. My friend in his shadow always downshifts while braking like at a stop light. He doesn't rev match. Its retarded. I told him once already. And then theres my other friend in his 99 eclipse. He just got his brakes redone to oem stock and he downshifts through the gears while coming to a stop. WHY does he do that. He tells me it takes the wear off the brakes, its true it does but its ruining your engine and transmission. :(

Thats there problem. Honestly for a daily driver you don't need to downshift through the gears while coming to a stop. Its useless unless your a truck driver or are in some circuit racing. I mean I'd rather just when I know i'm coming to a stop just throw it in neutral and coast down to the light while applying the brakes.
This is just me though...

[Bill Roberts]

Matt, that does not sound good at all..

All you are going to do is rev the engine and waste gas.

Your senerio would be good for a 4th to 3rd downshift but going to second...you will be getting close to just a quick spirt, not a meaningful d shift.

Play with it some. Most d shifting is at low speed manuivors Or power braking your car.....but in a strait line, you would do better in that case just to floor 3rd.

I remember one time in the ZR-1, I was going a shade too fast in 4th to downshift in 3rd and what a waste of time that was.


If you want to test that theory, go ahead...but a meaningful downshift is one where you have some time in the gear you are downshifting to. I would practice your 4th to 3rd on a deserted road. Once you get the hang of that...then look at a situation where a 3rd to 2nd speedwise would be better. IF you are at 2400 RPM in 4th....then slap into third would give you some meaningful power. You will run out of powerband quickly in your senerio.

[glc]

downshifting for braking was used at the dawn of motor car racing, because of the lack of brakes (terrible drum brakes). With the advent of disc brakes and other braking technology, downshifting to brake is a thing of the past. Any of you ever watched a race before? They select gear for acceleration, not for braking (might be some weird exception, ie forklift racing). And about the kid that said leave your foot on the clutch because his parents have been doing it for 30yrs.. isn't there a saying 'driving like your grandma'. Im sure your P & M are nice folks, but because they've been doing something wrong for 30yrs does that give them merit in the techniques of Automechanics? FACT : Any time you depress the clutch, the throwout bearing is spinning, holding the clutch in at stop signs, stop lights and during turns shortens the life of the throwout bearing and costs you a couple hundred bucks to get your clutched changed sooner. PS my dad who has 30yrs of experience driving, and changing clutches has got as much as 250k miles on a single clutch, i'd say he knows how to drive, and he doesn't hold the clutch in during turns and stops. Heel Toe for daily driving is a bunch of rubbish, Im gonna go far out on a limb and say that the person who does this has a descent chance of not having any formal driving experience, and they learned how to heel toe from the internet, please correct me if Im wrong, I personally think boneheads who do things like heel toe in traffic so they can be 1337 racers should have their drivers liscenses revoked, your lack of talent, and trying to do something where it should not be done to impress your mates could lead to a wreck.

p.s. just read this rubbish about powershifting. you use the clutch to powershift, use a little of your brain for a second : you want to shift as fast as possible in drag racing, you don't have time to match revs, you don't even have time to get your foot off the throttle (or want to) you simply stab the clutch with your left foot (whilst your right is on the throttle the entire time) and pull the gear lever into the next gear. this messes up clutches real good, and synchros die almost as fast.

[Matt_240]

ok, well.. i dont plan to heel-toe shift like a madman on the streets. but i do want to learn it...eventually. im gonna do it on deserted streets so dont worry. i just want to learn to downshift properly. thanks for all the help guys.

[DRFT]

I might sound like a idiot (probably already do...:confused: ) but what exactly is heal toe? i'm also starting to learn how to drive manual transmission. I already know how to drive but i want to learn the techniques of it.

[Stee Flo]

Originally posted by Matt_240
ok, so i guess im going to try and learn to rev match before i go into heel-toe stuff. so.. i guess i'll just drive around the block and say im in 3rd going 35 at 2000~2300 rpm. i blip the accel to say 2800~3300 rpm, clutch in, shift down to 2nd, let out clutch and it'll be all "g"?

what about when turning? So when you guys turn, you downshift and then turn, and then accelerate? Put the clutch in right before you blip the throttle. I would say its best to downshift before entering a turn. Heel-toe is good if you want to approach a turn with more speed and brake later while downshifting.

[Wei240]

what's even more crazy is that i stayed up late last night, flipping through channels and watched a little bit of speedtv which had nascar on, (i don't watch nascar, but this one they're actually on a track with left&right turns instead of going around ovals all day long), anyhow, they had an in-car-camera of one driver's foot positioning, the funny thing is that his right foot is ALWAYS on the gas and his left foot does the dancing, shift/brake really quickly but not both at the same time...

[Steeles]

they use clutches in NASCAR? I thought they'd have sequentials by now? intresting. isnt toyota getting into nascar now?

[muskrat]

Originally posted by Steeles
isnt toyota getting into nascar now?

Trying to, but they are really restricting the Toyota engine... it's too hi-tech.

[Steeles]

cool. my buddies little brother goes to UTI this fall and is gonna be working with one of the nascar teams.

[DuffMan]

Originally posted by muskrat
Trying to, but they are really restricting the Toyota engine... it's too hi-tech.

Technicly toyota has been in NASCAR for quite a while now. Just not in any of the more significant series yet. There's also been a Japanesse driver driving Winston and Busch for a while for preparation in being a driver for toyota sponsered team.

http://www.toyotacelicaonline.com/celica1/fastest/nascar.jpg

[Steeles]

Originally posted by DuffMan
Technicly toyota has been in NASCAR for quite a while now. Just not in any of the more significant series yet. There's also been a Japanesse driver driving Winston and Busch for a while for preparation in being a driver for toyota sponsered team.

http://www.toyotacelicaonline.com/celica1/fastest/nascar.jpg

i remember that picture from somewhere awhile back... SCC maybe. but never heard anything more about it.and I dont like nascar enough to go searching for it. :) although watching speed last weekend they were showing footage of Jeff Gordon taking laps at I think a canadian track in a Champ car. definately gave me new respect for the nascar drivers :)

[DuffMan]

Actually I think that was a Formula one car at Indy. It would be cool to have a US formula one driver. He actually didnt do to bad. Less than 1 sec off the qualifying time for last years race on that track and it was his first time ever in the car.

[Steeles]

Originally posted by DuffMan
Actually I think that was a Formula one car at Indy. It would be cool to have a US formula one driver. He actually didnt do to bad. Less than 1 sec off the qualifying time for last years race on that track and it was his first time ever in the car.

hmmm maybe.. there was a champ car qualifing session later that day so maybe it was F1.. cant remember but I do remember them saying he wouldve been high up in the qualifying in last years race at that course.

[glc]

Sequintal boxes in NASCAR? Never, the idea of NASCAR is lots of restrictions, so essentially its old technology stretched as far as it can go. On the other end of the spectrum is F1 which is lets use the newest technology and spend the most money. The last American F1 Driver was Michael Andretti in 1993.

[Sky13]

I basically always downshift my civic (with 152,000 miles on it, and it was owned by my dad who didn't really rev properly into downshifts when he had it for 113,000 miles) heel-toe style (with rev matching of course) whenever slowing down/stopping. it keeps you in the right gear, and reduces brake wear. I'll agree that it adds wear to synchros and engines, but the fact is synchros and engines will last a damn long time either way. As long as you don't over rev or try and shift too fast you'll be ok. The added control is worth it to me.

[DudeYourSoOOJDM]

The perfect rev-match is the best feeling ever when driving a car. Once you learn it smoothly and match the speed of engine and trans while going into a lower gear, you can hit a turn without transferring any weight to the front....keeping balance of your car is the key. NOTHING is like the perfect rev-match. Anyone that gets into ANY type of performance driving NEEDS to learn rev-match....read the article on www.mulhollandraceway.org , it is under canyon driving. basically says "those who havent yet learned to rev match are NOT natural drivers, because it should come naturally to those who understand the mechanics of driving".....read it, good schtuff

[s13rookie]

wei240 are you talking about the road race that took place last weekend? i dislike nascar but my dad is all about it, i ended up watching the race because it was more than a left turn track. i watched about 1/2 of it, here and there. i was really happy for the "ringers" the road racers, 2 of them, damn i forgot there names but each of them lead laps(1, and 11 i think) and finished like 7 and 10, pretty f-ing good for not driving nascar cars before

dont know why i posted, anyways

[wpayne]

1. clutch in
2. shift to nuetral
3. clutch out
4. clutch in
5. rev match
6. shift down
7. clutch out

[Matt_240]

do you guys see any need to downshift from 5th to 4th? i was gonna try but it seems pointless and im also scared im goin to downshift to 2nd by mistake or even reverse. haha.

[wpayne]

Yeah, if I was cruisin' in 5th and then had to slow down just a little because of...say a little traffic, and then I could speed up again, I'd probably be to low in the power ban to accelerate in 5th so I would downshift to 4th and then back to 5th after I pick up some speed.

[mistert]

Originally posted by glc
Heel Toe for daily driving is a bunch of rubbish, Im gonna go far out on a limb and say that the person who does this has a descent chance of not having any formal driving experience, and they learned how to heel toe from the internet, please correct me if Im wrong, I personally think boneheads who do things like heel toe in traffic so they can be 1337 racers should have their drivers liscenses revoked, your lack of talent, and trying to do something where it should not be done to impress your mates could lead to a wreck.


it is nice to be able to smoothely engage the brakes and downshift through the gears to a stop, much like an automatic car. if you can do it correctly, you can push the brake pedal even to the gas pedal and do it without moving the brake pedal again until you are no longer moving.

i prefer to have control over the car. yes you can just pop it in neutral and probably save gas and your precious effort at the expense of your brake pads. but when some asshole in an explorer decides to make a last second lane change without his blinker just to get one car length in front of me, that second it takes to glange at your speedometer and pick a gear could mean running into him

and no, i was taught to heel-toe by a more experienced driver, i didnt learn over the internet

[wpayne]

James, I just read your sig and it is damn funny! Almost on the same line as mine.

If know how to down**** properly and can do it, by all means do it. You shouldn't have to look at the speedometer or whatever, you should be able to tell by what gear your in and the sound of the engine. As far as I'm concernded, if you can do it right, it is safer.

[wpayne]

Originally posted by DuffMan
Actually I think that was a Formula one car at Indy. It would be cool to have a US formula one driver. He actually didnt do to bad. Less than 1 sec off the qualifying time for last years race on that track and it was his first time ever in the car.

Jeff Gordan and Juan Pablo Montoya traded cars and got to take some laps in each others cars. Pretty cool stuff! Montoya is a driver for the BMW Williams F1 team.

[DudeYourSoOOJDM]

Last time I checked pads are like $17 a set and last 2 years or more w/rotors lasting even longer and when it is time to change pads/rotors it only takes a half an hour.

I go through pads every 4 or 5 months and rotors at least once a year....and this is using axxis pads, and my driving tends to warp A LOT of rotors.

We drive HARD every weekend through the canyons and I SEE the need for perfect rev matching. Imagine a schmuck going out there not knowing what he's doing, coming into a corner hot getting on the brakes, downshifting hard w/o matching speeds and since the motor is spinning faster in the lower gear, when the clutch re-engages it sends a jolt through the driveline and ends up locking the back wheels up through a turn. The schmuck ends up locking up the brakes, understeering and hitting a mountain or a guard rail etc......

My experiences led me to learn how to match rev's because when I first started, situations like these used to come up.....and I changed my driving style to adapt.

Many people don't understand this concept and so they have to speak their mind on it....that's fine, keep your opinion......just dont lock your back wheels up.

You dont really need to do this in traffic....it helps to learn in regular traffic because then you can make it a habit when you're really driving.

[YellwMonky]

Originally posted by wpayne
1. clutch in
2. shift to nuetral
3. clutch out
4. clutch in
5. rev match
6. shift down
7. clutch out

you got step 4 and 5 mixed up. You should rev match with the clutch out.

[Matt_240]

just read an explanation and how-to on revmatching, doubleclutching, and heel-to-toe. he made is very easy to understand.

http://www.boostaholic.com/revmatching.html

have to scroll down a bit.