Understeer

[idamaster]

Im having a pretty bad understeer problem in my s13. I think its the tires because compared to everybody elses tires my treads are kind of hard. The tires are supposed to be sticky but I dont think they are at all. I hydroplane pretty easily too. Ill sometimes spin leaving a red light/stop sign. But the main problem is that I can corner faster in a jeep. If I try to take a turn faster than usually the front wheels will be turned to one side and the car will slide forward. Its also very easy to throw the car into a slide. Someone said they think that my front tires are too big and thats why but that makes no sense to me.

What Parts I think matter.
s13 sr20
KTS coilovers
Tanabe Swaybars with RSR bushings
Tanabe front/rear strut bars
SPL steel steering bushings
Bassett racing wheels
Cusco Motor mounts
Dunlop super sport 9000's all in 225/50/15

[S13CoupeLover]

I know what you mean about under steer. I am on Nexen's at the moment and they're not the best tires for anything really. but heck try to get a good alignment, what i have right now is about .5 camber in the front with 1.5 ish in the rear. i would also say put the toe to maybe 0 or some negative toe in the rear. after i got this done you just need to get the valving to where you like it. the adjustments done to the coilover has allot to do with it also. the guy i go to told me to try and get the rear end softer than the front and mess with the air pressure in the tires. and just mess with what you can.

I'm not sure form what you said you may not have RUCAs, toe rods, to get the rear end to the proper alignment. the front adjustability should get you where you would want to be at.

hoped that helped a little.

[Antihero983]

Just so you know, S13s are notorious for understeer.

You seem to have the mods to help alleviate that, so I dunno.

[Silverbullet]

most aftermarket roll bars are way thicker than they need to be, especially in the rear. the car should have oversteering tenancies. Make sure your alignment is in check as well as your tires. Are you running same set of tires on all 4 corners?

[roboticnissan]

how much experience do you have racing cars?? it could easily be you.

[NINJASPY]

do you have a lsd?

[Grenade180sx]

how much experience do you have racing cars?? it could easily be you.

best question ever... you must be a race car driver to not understeer now. BAHAHAHA:bowrofl:

[dsastr_clan]

i used to have mad undesteer issues till i talked about different suspension settings withs lots of drifters and after messing with my suspension i fixed my problems, im on a SOHC pretty weak but it gets the job done, i have my coils on the hardest setting on the rear with 45 psi and on the front i go all the way to soft and go 10 clicks back and run 30 or 35 psi depending on the weather, is better when u have the front softer than the rears you will noticed less understeer. Give it a shot

[mothon]

I bet your front toe is off. Also how much camber are you running?

[ajbrain]

i would say how you turn into a corner and what are you doing in the corner. are you going too fast getting into the corner and give a hard brake action? are you keeping steping on the brake in the corner? slow down to the max speed to get into a corner than give a little brake or gas in the corner. accelerate when you get out the end of the corner period.

[idamaster]

Im not wanting to say im some kind of professional driver but I know my way around the block. Yes, Ive got the same tires all around. I took 2 pictures for the front settings:
Right
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll184/idamaster/240sx/IMAG0060.jpg
Left
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll184/idamaster/240sx/IMAG0059.jpg

[dsastr_clan]

oh and i run 2 screws on camber plates to so i can get lots neg camber at front( im wreckless like that)

[mothon]

That is absolutely zero help in telling me how much camber you are running.

[babyjesus]

go with a smaller front sway bar, maybe like stock, then you'll get just a bit of overesteer depending on how big your rear sway bar is. ....i had the same problem, gonna run a slightly bigger rear sway bar, should be fine like that

[idamaster]

Ill do my best to fill you guys in on the info but I don't know suspension in detail. Just let me know what you want to know. Tell him how to measure whatever you guys want and Ill do it.

[Xplat]

First of all, you need to make sure EVERYTHING that is adjustable on your car is set to a proper starting point before you go fiddling with shit.

Start by making sure your tire PSI is proper for your tire. Check tire specs. Too high means less grip.

Next, make sure your front coilover perch heights match. Then check rears. Mismatched shit leads to corner weight problems. Which can cause anything from understeer to oversteer depending on how you've set your car up.

Next, set ALL damper settings to their softest setting and work your way up to your preferred settings.

Finally, get your car aligned front and rear.

[fcdrifter20]

Start by making sure your tire PSI is proper for your tire. Check tire specs. Too high means less grip.

This is the first thing that should have been brought up. dont kno how many times i have seen this before.

Kids complaining about under steer saying its that they need to adjust the suspension or that they got shitty front tires. then i tell them to check psi. they are running 40- 45 psi and wonder why under steer occurs during cornering??

start at checking that, bring it down to 30ish psi and see how that works

[fckillerbee]

omg...full of fail

check all tire pressure

have the car properly aligned

if everything is in spec, remove front sway bar to creat oversteer

when all else fails...replace the driver.

[idamaster]

Tires pressure is 32psi. I think it is the tires not gripping the road because the car wants to turn but it rather starts to slide.

[fckillerbee]

now go take off your front sway bar and drive the car around.

[PoorMans180SX]

Move the two inner bolts in your camber plates towards the out bolts and adjust for more camber. About 3 degrees is good. It will definitely help with the understeer.

Get tension rods (or at least bushings) And a tension rod brace. These will help immensely. Your whole front suspension will move around a lot less and keep your tires from overloading.

Mess with the valving on your coils. Try different settings out. See what you can do.

Add more tire pressure in the rear.

Also try smoothing out your driving style. Go in slower and smoother and step on the gas later.

[drift freaq]

Just so you know, S13s are notorious for understeer.
.


Hahahahaha and thats some comedy right there. Actually S13's are not that bad in the understeer department. You should now this as well because you have played with S30's which really have understeer issues. Truthfully if the guy is having understeer issues. First off has he corner balanced the car? Since he is running fully adjustable coilovers.

Oh and how stiff does he has dampening? Because with Tanabe sways ( which are fucking huge and probably more swaybar than he needs on a street car) Its going to eliminate all body roll which could induce understeer especially if the car is slammed and he has the coils set on full stiff. Which can make the car way over sprung and fuck with handling.

Oh and dialing negative camber in is not the answer to all either.

First rule of thumb would be either dial back the dampening a bit or go to smaller sways especially if you are trying for more traction.

There is a reason a lot of guys in Japan run stock or SE and Hicas bars on their cars with coils.
True D1 guys use larger bars but ah your not a D1 driver. LOL

Oh and a lot of the Road race guys run no rear bar at all.

Take of all of this for what its worth.

[racepar1]

best question ever... you must be a race car driver to not understeer now. BAHAHAHA:bowrofl:

That shows how much you know about driving. An idiot driver can easily cause a perfectly good car to understeer. More then that an idiot driver is likely unclear and uncertain as to what the car is REALLY doing.

Tires pressure is 32psi. I think it is the tires not gripping the road because the car wants to turn but it rather starts to slide.

The way you are describing how the car drives just doesn't make any sense to me.

Just to start though 225/50/15 dunlop sp9000 tires are pretty lame. Your suspension is far too aggressive for those shitty tires.

[kuramaya]

You don't mean "starts to slide" but "starts to push" right?

First have you had your front alignment set? What are the specs?

225/50's too much side wall for me. I run 215/45 and thinks thats a good setup. People are mentioning different types of tires...I dont think thats an issue. I Run FED RSR on the front and 595's o the rear and never have a push problem...As mentioned check PSI. You should be running Neg camber if your sliding anyway for control. How stiff do you have the front shokacho at? Play with that a bit. Does it happen when going right and left? If so could be a toe problem.

[jspaeth]

I run Tein SuperStreet, slammed pretty well, but no tuck really. My shocks are set way too high probably.

All aftermarket (solid endlink) suspension, except for LCAs.

SPL subframe spacers, aluminum subframe bushings.

Tanabe swaybars.

Let me say, that at higher speeds, the car feels pretty neutral, and I can give it gas and get traction and control the car.

However, sharp turns at relatively low speeds, the car always feels like it wants to lose the back end.


May try loosening the rear swaybar and softening the rear struts.....

[Shvltme93Notch]

lots neg camber at front( im wreckless like that)

problem solved. seriously? ok. try getting your front camber a ittle closer to factory spec and then see how it drives.

[fcdrifter20]

omg...full of fail

check all tire pressure

have the car properly aligned

if everything is in spec, remove front sway bar to creat oversteer

when all else fails...replace the driver.

mite come down to that last option lol

[PoorMans180SX]

problem solved. seriously? ok. try getting your front camber a ittle closer to factory spec and then see how it drives.

Hahaha, you're kidding...right?

BTW, Drift Freaq is probably most right.

[idamaster]

What I meant by the car wants to turn but starts sliding is that the front tires lose traction and just start to slide forward. I talked to the man I bought the car from and he said he spent a pretty penny on the tires and he said he was very, very disappointing with how they performed. Would softening up the suspension help with hitting small bumps while cornering because my tires seem to lift off of the ground if I hit a bump in a fast corner. Ive got the rest of the RSR bushings but I dont have the right tools/ parts like new ball joints to change these out so they're going to have to wait. Im still learning about suspension so take it easy on me you bashers.

[LayNLow]

Go to your local autoshop and ask for an alignment CHECK and for them to print out the numbers front and rear. Then get back to us. In my area alignment checks are free, but if not it shouldnt be more than 20 bucks.

[racepar1]

What I meant by the car wants to turn but starts sliding is that the front tires lose traction and just start to slide forward. I talked to the man I bought the car from and he said he spent a pretty penny on the tires and he said he was very, very disappointing with how they performed. Would softening up the suspension help with hitting small bumps while cornering because my tires seem to lift off of the ground if I hit a bump in a fast corner. Ive got the rest of the RSR bushings but I dont have the right tools/ parts like new ball joints to change these out so they're going to have to wait. Im still learning about suspension so take it easy on me you bashers.

If you want the "bashers" to ease up then you need to listen and take advice. Save up for wheels and tires just to start. Those tires will never get you where you want no matter what you do with the rest of the car. I would also reccomend that you ditch the tanabe rear bar for a 21mm hicas bar, but that won't help with understeer. It is strange that you are complaining about understeer in the first place though. S-13's are absolutely notorious for smooth and predictable on-throttle oversteer, NOT understeer. Due to what I KNOW about these cars and their suspension I cannot reccomend that you do anything beyond the normal suspension checks (bushings, balljoints, etc... , and of course an alignment) untill you replace the tires.

[jspaeth]

If you want the "bashers" to ease up then you need to listen and take advice. Save up for wheels and tires just to start. Those tires will never get you where you want no matter what you do with the rest of the car. I would also reccomend that you ditch the tanabe rear bar for a 21mm hicas bar, but that won't help with understeer. It is strange that you are complaining about understeer in the first place though. S-13's are absolutely notorious for smooth and predictable on-throttle oversteer, NOT understeer. Due to what I KNOW about these cars and their suspension I cannot reccomend that you do anything beyond the normal suspension checks (bushings, balljoints, etc... , and of course an alignment) untill you replace the tires.

Like I said, I have all aftermarket arms/suspension and my alignment is not terribly far off of OEM....a bit more camber, and a bit less toe-in....

With THICK rear sway (Tanabe) and relatively stiff shock settings, my car NEVER feels like it wants to understeer.

Feels netural-ish at higher speeds and if anything (esp. at low speeds), it feels like it wants to lose the ass end.

[s13dan]

Half of you guys are contradicting each other. And saying what s13's are notorious for is silly. Nissan desinged them to understeer in factory form, it was from the spring rates. With coilovers S13s are fairly nuteral. I say get a GOOD alignment and make small changes from there. Learn to turn in smoothly. Different settings for drift or grip, obviously. With or without traction greatly changes the handling characteristics.

oh and most importantly
TIRES Its the only thing on your car that can effect every characteristic of your car.Handling,braking accleration,ride. Sticky tires will most likley cure your understeer.

[MrMigs]

I'll bet you anything you're just turning-in too late. It's not necessarily that your car understeers... it's just that it responds slow to turn-in, which makes it appear to understeer. But if you steer with a bit more finesse and take a better line, you shouldn't get any understeer.

Also, like someone asked, do you have lsd? If not... then that's why. You can't smash the gas and expect a whole lot out of an open diff. Also, if you have a welded diff, that shit sucks ass compared to an lsd.

Enjoy, and hope you don't crash into any of us while you're figuring all this out. :)

[blazin_teg]

Your getting understeer because of a bigger front sway bar. I have a rb20 s14. It had no front or rear sway. And lowering springs. Also stiffer springs will add understeer. I upgraded to ST front and rear sways (despite reading the front wouldn't fit, fit fine for me, no oilpan rub) and PBM coilovers with toe and camber arms. Now I get alot of understeer as opposed to hardly any with the old setup. Now I like this setup better just got to watch out for that understeer expecially in the rain.

[ericcastro]

This thread is fucking retarded.

Cant even read it.

whats your rims sizes?
whats your diff
and when was the last time you had the car aligned to normal street specs.

Thats all that needs discussed.

[fckillerbee]

I run Tein SuperStreet, slammed pretty well, but no tuck really. My shocks are set way too high probably.

All aftermarket (solid endlink) suspension, except for LCAs.

SPL subframe spacers, aluminum subframe bushings.

Tanabe swaybars.

Let me say, that at higher speeds, the car feels pretty neutral, and I can give it gas and get traction and control the car.

However, sharp turns at relatively low speeds, the car always feels like it wants to lose the back end.


May try loosening the rear swaybar and softening the rear struts.....

you said the car understeers?
Maybe you have the wrong idea of understeer.

understeer is loss of traction in the front (fwd problems)
oversteer is loss of traction in the rear (rwd problems)

cause everything I have read, you say you have understeer problems, but your ass is sliding out. You have everything set up for oversteer. Please be more specific with what IS the problem.


AND everyone that is butting in this thread, if you have not TESTED multiple setups, then how do you know what is wrong with the car?

as far as his tires....yes they are shitty, but in grip driving, the car should handle fine since the front and the rear are equally fighting each other.

There are a millions "BASICS" to setting up his car right...we need to know your settings.

[MrMigs]

judo butt plugs

[ericcastro]

as far as his tires....yes they are shitty, but in grip driving, the car should handle fine since the front and the rear are equally fighting each other.
.
exactly.........

[racepar1]

Half of you guys are contradicting each other. And saying what s13's are notorious for is silly. Nissan desinged them to understeer in factory form, it was from the spring rates.

While in stock form the s-13 does exibit off throttle understeer nissan specifically designed the rear suspension geometry to promote on-throttle oversteer. Even a stock s-13 slides like a dream with a little coaxing. Understeer is DEFINITELY not a commonly discussed s-13 problem. Besides that we are NOT discussing a stock car anyways. Aftermarket parts like coilovers and swaybars GREATLY change the balance of the car.

With coilovers S13s are fairly nuteral.

I would disagree with this statement. A typically set-up s-13 is far from neutral when pushed to it's limits. I speak from experience, not assumption.

[racepar1]

you said the car understeers?
Maybe you have the wrong idea of understeer.

understeer is loss of traction in the front (fwd problems)
oversteer is loss of traction in the rear (rwd problems)

cause everything I have read, you say you have understeer problems, but your ass is sliding out. You have everything set up for oversteer. Please be more specific with what IS the problem.

Yeah, I noticed that too. Half the guy's problem is that he cannot even clearly describe his problem.

AND everyone that is butting in this thread, if you have not TESTED multiple setups, then how do you know what is wrong with the car?

Seriously...

So much bullshit that it actually physically hurts a little to read.

as far as his tires....yes they are shitty, but in grip driving, the car should handle fine since the front and the rear are equally fighting each other.

Not true. With shitty tires the whole car is all over the place. It's twice as bad as having a simple setup issue.

[R_G]

just use the e-brake and do it.... haha j/k.

If i lived near LA i would drive your car to see wtf is wrong with it.

You need to throw everything you think you know and start fresh. If you really want to improve and make your car handle better then try removing and playing with settings. Please use a log notebook and write down everything you do and how the car responded .

Before you go out and play:

Check your suspension settings and make sure it's properly align .
http://www.familycar.com/alignment.htm

[idamaster]

I'm going to order some new tires and get an alignment afterward.

[fckillerbee]

Not true. With shitty tires the whole car is all over the place. It's twice as bad as having a simple setup issue.


What I meant was...with shitty tires, the car will be at a "zero" with oversteer and understeer being as equal as possible. So testing everything else out will be limited to his shitty tires. If you adjust settings, you may or maynot see differences, just because of tires.

A good all around set up, would be some federal 595 ss. same sizes, all around.

order them from CTO (city tire online.com)
they are on zilvia.

[ericcastro]

What I meant was...with shitty tires, the car will be at a "zero" with oversteer and understeer being as equal as possible. So testing everything else out will be limited to his shitty tires. If you adjust settings, you may or maynot see differences, just because of tires.

A good all around set up, would be some federal 595 ss. same sizes, all around.

order them from CTO (city tire online.com)
they are on zilvia.

This makes no sense to me hammy.

Shitty tires have a lower grip potential than better tires.

But if all the tires are the same, shitty or not.
They will react the same.
the shitty tires will break grip potential sooner, but ........

.........If this dude is going so fast on a corner that he breaks the grip potential of shitty tires, it would benifit us for him not to be driving on the street.

there is alot more going on then shitty tires.

I am the king of shitty tires, i can tell you.

I have run some of the worse stuff up front and not had a problem.

[MrMigs]

So.... basically... are we all in agreement that OP should just work on his driving? :ughd:

[ericcastro]

lol, i think that and go get a real alignment, lol.

[MrMigs]

/thread lol

[jspaeth]

you said the car understeers?
Maybe you have the wrong idea of understeer.

understeer is loss of traction in the front (fwd problems)
oversteer is loss of traction in the rear (rwd problems)


Please re-read.

I said MY car feels neutral, but at lower speeds on sharp turns, if I try to take the turn any faster, it always feels like the back end is going to swing around. OVERSTEER.

[idamaster]

So.... basically... are we all in agreement that OP should just work on his driving? :ughd:
Why would I lie about my driving? I have nothing to prove to you people...

[MrMigs]

Why would I lie about my driving? I have nothing to prove to you people...

I'm sorry; Allow me to elaborate. You're going to hear so many mixed-up pieces of advice on this forum that you might as well just get out there and figure things out on your own.

I'm sure everyone on here means well, but it's my personal opinion that you'll learn faster by trial and error on your own.

Good luck with figuring out YOUR perfect setup. (no sarcasm)

[slidewaysmn]

Shiiit, so much bashin'. I had the same problem. Front dampening was too hard, so I went in the middle on my dampening adjustment, and my front tires were shit because I was waitin on tires for my actual wheels. Do it up and you should be fine...oh, and make sure all your alignment specs are good....too high for zilvia.

[usafdarkhorse]

I'll echo the comments of some of the others and say get a base alignment check and probably a new set of tires.

It's better if you have new tires before changing the alignment anyway. See where that puts you afterward. Your suspension setup up front is probably too hard for the tires you are running ( or your driving style ), assuming your alignment is fine, and you might have to bring everything back to an equal soft setting and work your way back.

Another driver may drive the car just fine with that much understeer dialed in and you may need to find the settings which work the best for you.