Caster Adjustment - Tell your Alignment Specialist

[rocksteady_racer]

If you have adjustable front tension rods or rear tension rods for caster adjustment:

If your going to a shop with the electronic alignment machine, I know because I complained at R&S Strauss up here in phila to get my caster right in the front of my 240sx. Anyway, what the alignment technician needs to do is keep it on the first screen and not go in to the alignment menu. The screen with all the gauges before you go into the alignment adjustment section. The machine will then be able to read caster. It just doesn't read caster inside the alignment menu because most stock cars have fixed caster in the front and they don't want their technicians playing with it - they'd rather if it's out to replace the whole arm. So just tell him not to go into the alignment menu to adjust the caster then do the rest of the alignment in the alignment menu . Hope this helps everyone who is having a similiar idiot shop technician who doesn't know how to work the alignment machine for non-stock cars. I figured this was kind of important since most techs I know didn't know how to adjust caster before I told them ;).

[ManoNegra]

Caster is not adjustable on our cars
most places won't mess with adjustable arms
adjusting caster through your tension rods is not a good idea
there are no tension rods in the back, you're thinking traction rods
most electronic alignment machines don't work on lower cars

why not go to a proper place that works on track cars to begin with?
and if you really care about adjusting caster then caster/camber plates is the way to go.
but yeah, stupid alignment techs...

[singlecamslam]

I though the only way to adjust caster was by the adjustable tension rod?

[rocksteady_racer]

Yes in the front the tension rod adjusts caster - in the rear traction rods is what I meant to say - my bad. And yes you can use plates to adjust caster too. My point was I was just trying to get back to factory spec with my Tein tension rods (yes measuring them is almost as effective but not always perfect). And to be honest I don't know any alignment shops here in phila that know what they are doing lol. We got Lorenzo's for race engine builds - that's pretty much the only engine shop in the area, and there are only like 3 dyno tuning shops and because of that they think they can charge you a ridiculous price for a tune. And with my battle version tension rods (I have two cars) adjusting caster was pretty much a 4 second job- you're right though it's more for a fine adjustment.

[Xplat]

How can you just flat out state that caster is not adjustable on our cars?

Obviously, stock from the factory with the fixed tension rods it isn't. But that doesn't prevent caster from being adjusted ever.

This guy mentioned in his post that he has adjustable tension rods thus he now has the ability to adjust his caster.

Either you made a simple reading comprehension mistake or I must be gravely mistaken as to what an adjustable tension rod is for.

[rocksteady_racer]

Checkmate ^ Adjustable Tension Rods FTW LoL

[ManoNegra]

Yes in the front the tension rod adjusts caster - in the rear traction rods is what I meant to say - my bad. And yes you can use plates to adjust caster too. My point was I was just trying to get back to factory spec with my Tein tension rods (yes measuring them is almost as effective but not always perfect). And to be honest I don't know any alignment shops here in phila that know what they are doing lol. We got Lorenzo's for race engine builds - that's pretty much the only engine shop in the area, and there are only like 3 dyno tuning shops and because of that they think they can charge you a ridiculous price for a tune. And with my battle version tension rods (I have two cars) adjusting caster was pretty much a 4 second job- you're right though it's more for a fine adjustment.

Yes, I'm aware that you can alter caster with adjustable tension rods
and like I mentioned on the third line
it is not a good idea, it makes undesirable changes to the geometry
and again, caster/camber plates is the proper way to do it
but *shrug* don't mind me, I don't know what I'm talking about
hey I hear you can adjust camber with adjustable LCAs too

[ADiamond240sx]

Yes, I'm aware that you can alter caster with adjustable tension rods
and like I mentioned on the third line
it is not a good idea, it makes undesirable changes to the geometry
and again, caster/camber plates is the proper way to do it
but *shrug* don't mind me, I don't know what I'm talking about
hey I hear you can adjust camber with adjustable LCAs too

I get what you are saying but adjusting caster is damn near a definite need once you put coils and sways on your car. Think about what the caster is for .... increasing camber when the wheels are turned. Our cars run pretty positive caster as it is, and the 240 has pretty good camber gain due to squatting as you enter into a corner. However, with stiff coils and good sways the car is NEVER going to have as much roll as stock and thus there will not be as much camber gain going into corners and traction will be lost. The solution is more positive caster to increase camber gain as the wheel is turned. I dialed my caster in at 7.2. I spent 6 months testing it out on tracks and seeing how the car felt (out every weekend). I settled on 7.2 positive caster. Trust me ... anything less and the car just didn't bite while in a corner.

[singlecamslam]

How do you properly adjust caster than Manonegro? Not being a jerk i know that you know what you're talking about its just i though that tension rods was the only way to adjust caster, and camber plates only adjust camber, are there different type of plates that do both?

[ManoNegra]

yes, ideally a caster/camber plates would be the best solution
there are a few out there for 240s
ground control
Ground Control - Camber/Caster Plate, Z Car (Pair) (http://www.ground-control-store.com/products/description.php/II=151/CA=93)

Noltec's
Nissan Frt Adj Strut Mount (Pair) Cushioned [N44020] - $150.00 : Koni, Ohlins, Moton, Penske, Hypercoils, Your Racing Shocks Shop! (http://performanceshock.com/noltec/camber-plates-bolts/nissan-frt-adj-strut-mount-pair-cushioned)

HKS
HKS 2-Way Adjustable Pillow Ball Mounts Nissan 240SX 89-97 (http://www.energyspeed.com/servlet/the-25811/HKS-2-dsh-Way-Adjustable-Pillow/Detail)

Any of these will let you adjust caster and camber
now, design wise, the Noltec and GC plates leave a lot to be desired
it's nearly impossible to adjust one without altering the other

I don't know about the HKS ones, I haven't seen a pair up close

Vorshlang makes some nice ones but no s-chassis application
http://www.gtworx.com/catalog/images/498308284_kkc6e-L.jpg

[timlush]

Did you not read either of his posts???

if you really care about adjusting caster then caster/camber plates is the way to go.


caster/camber plates is the proper way to do it

[Xplat]

Okay man, well you have absolutely ruined my understanding of how to adjust caster on my car. I have Tanabe pro 7 coilovers on my car and I see no feasible way to adjust the camber plate for caster. I don't know if this is simply a 'limitation' of the plate on my car? If that is the case am I expected to replace the camber plate for another that does adjust both? Adjusting caster via the tension rods just makes sense and from every source and reseller that I can find mentions tension rods are for adjusting caster.

Moving the top of my strut further back to mimic the same thing I'm doing with a tension rod makes sense as far as adjusting caster but you're certainly the first person I've heard say not to use tension rods for adjusting caster.

I've already tried looking for ways of adjusting caster using only my camber plate both on my car and online and can't find any info.

Any links or explanations would be appreciated.


I included a picture for reference... Let me know if I can even adjust caster on my camber plates.

http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/3682/tanabes.jpg

[slider2828]

Basically by pushing the arm forward and back, yu will cause a geometry change because you are pivoting the wheel when moving it back or forward. THese plates keep the same geometry when you change the castor.... That is if your car is way off... I dont' think like .5* change wouldn't make a really big change in geo change, but any more.... as rule of thumb, not much you can do correctly without the caster/camber plates.

[az_240]

Is changing caster not that big of a deal on our cars? This is the first I have heard of these caster/camber combo plates. Are they pretty universal? I currently have KTS coils but want to get some GR+s eventually.

I was always under the impression people were adjusting castor with their adjustable tension rods with no ill-effect

[slider2828]

Yeah, if its a huge change it matters, but like I said if its like .5* not a big deal, but 1* or more is a LOT

[S14DB]

I would like to know what alignment machine on the market today shows REAR caster.

[Xplat]

I still see no feasible way to adjust caster on my camber plates. Will I need to by an aftermarket product for my aftermarket product to be able to adjust caster?

Underneath my camber plate is only a pillowball that can pivot for camber and caster, but seems to remain stationary otherwise.

When comparing the design of my camber plate
(pictured below)

http://www.hpautoworks.com/images/pillowball_l.jpg

to that of what manonegra describes as a caster/camber plate
(pictured below)

http://www.ground-control-store.com/images/datapage/CCPZ_dp.jpg

I can't see how the ground control one adjusts caster as well as camber.

Am I supposed to rotated the assembly perpendicular from how they are now in order to apply changes to caster, but lose camber adjust-ability?

I'm just trying to grasp how one would change caster using the ground control plate vs that tein one I linked or if the Tein one lacks caster adjustability or if it's linked to camber and not independent of camber changes.

As an example lets say I have my tension rods at equal lengths but my drivers side has 3 degrees less positive caster than my passenger. What would I need to be doing with the caster/camber plate to make this adjustment?

[ADiamond240sx]

I'm going to have to say that I get what you are saying about the adjustable plates. However, tension rods essentially do the same thing on our cars. That is what they are designed to do.

I'll also disagree that 1* more adjustment via tension rods is 'bad'. Stock is 6.0 postive on our cars. 6.4 is out of spec. according to the FSM. I run 7.2 and know someone who runs 9.0 without ill effect (other than the car handles the way he wants it to). Yes, you are changing the geometry of the suspension up front, but thats kinda the idea. More caster (geometry change) to increase camber gain as the wheel turns. If you can show me how a camber plate changes the geometry in a more superior way I'd be willing to listen. But putting up pics of plates that show me nothing other than caster can be changed from more than one location on our cars proves nothing.

P.S. If you think about how our cars front suspensions are set up using the caster plates would not do a better job of adjusting the caster, the angle of change would just be on the top as opposed to the bottom. NOW, if you wanted to maintain the stock angle of the strut, I can see where camber plates (with adjustable caster setting) AND tension rods could allow you to move the entire strut (coilover) further forward or backward. However, I think at that point you'd just be moving the wheels forward/backward and not really changing the caster setting (geometry).

P.P.S. All those plates do not change caster except the one and it only has one aditional setting from stock, and its not that big a change - from the looks of the plate its about a 0.5 change so I'm going to call BS on just about everything said about changing the caster using a pillowball plate.

[SoguRacing]

ridiculous....

[ManoNegra]

I'm going to have to say that I get what you are saying about the adjustable plates. However, tension rods essentially do the same thing on our cars. That is what they are designed to do.

proof to back this up?
Kuah recommends to set tension rods to stock length
the Ikeya Formuala LCA/tension rods warn you to set the lengths to their recommended lengths
Darin from West End Alignment recommended me not to mess with tension rod length
Sam went as far as to slot his strut towers to allow for caster adjustment on his old drift car...

I'll also disagree that 1* more adjustment via tension rods is 'bad'. Stock is 6.0 postive on our cars. 6.4 is out of spec. according to the FSM. I run 7.2 and know someone who runs 9.0 without ill effect (other than the car handles the way he wants it to). Yes, you are changing the geometry of the suspension up front, but thats kinda the idea. More caster (geometry change) to increase camber gain as the wheel turns.

I agree, adjusting camber is a good thing
and yes, ~7 deegres is about right for most applications on our cars

If you can show me how a camber plate changes the geometry in a more superior way I'd be willing to listen. But putting up pics of plates that show me nothing other than caster can be changed from more than one location on our cars proves nothing.

ok, lets try
by adding positive caster through the tension rod
you're in essence pulling the strut assembly at an angle
the LCA is designed to travel on an horizontal axis up and down on the crossmember
so now, by altering the tension rod length, you introduced binding in the LCA pivot and possibly shorten the life of the bushing
second, the tie rod is now also pulled at an angle aswell that you can't compensate for
there goes your steering geometry and your ackerman angle

caster/cambler plates do not alter the LCA pivot nor tie rod angle


P.P.S. All those plates do not change caster except the one and it only has one aditional setting from stock, and its not that big a change - from the looks of the plate its about a 0.5 change so I'm going to call BS on just about everything said about changing the caster using a pillowball plate.

really? and how can you tell, by looking at pictures?
I have friends with caster/camber plates and I can assure you that
you can adjust both
do you have experience with any? or are you just speculating?

I can also point out a few other sources of credibility but what's the point?
it's your car at the end of the day, modify it how you see fit

[ADiamond240sx]

proof to back this up?
Kuah recommends to set tension rods to stock length
the Ikeya Formuala LCA/tension rods warn you to set the lengths to their recommended lengths
Darin from West End Alignment recommended me not to mess with tension rod length
Sam went as far as to slot his strut towers to allow for caster adjustment on his old drift car...



I agree, adjusting camber is a good thing
and yes, ~7 deegres is about right for most applications on our cars



ok, lets try
by adding positive caster through the tension rod
you're in essence pulling the strut assembly at an angle
the LCA is designed to travel on an horizontal axis up and down on the crossmember
so now, by altering the tension rod length, you introduced binding in the LCA pivot and possibly shorten the life of the bushing
second, the tie rod is now also pulled at an angle aswell that you can't compensate for
there goes your steering geometry and your ackerman angle

caster/cambler plates do not alter the LCA pivot nor tie rod angle




really? and how can you tell, by looking at pictures?
I have friends with caster/camber plates and I can assure you that
you can adjust both
do you have experience with any? or are you just speculating?

I can also point out a few other sources of credibility but what's the point?
it's your car at the end of the day, modify it how you see fit


I specifically said it 'looked' like it had about .5 max adjustment on the ones you posted. I have never seen anything like a camber plate that adjusts caster which is why I said I'd be open to see what ya got for info.

As for the plates you posted only one has anything visible over camber adjustments ..... I see no other sliding plates or adjustments on the other plates. Furthermore, the one that does have a caster adjuster on it only has two positions which look about 4mm apart. That is not much movement or adjustment at all. Furthermore ... it is far from a slider ... I can see why you would want that, but I'd rather see at least 3-4 positions on something to make it actually a little more usable and tunable.

I get what your saying about adjusting the angle at the bottom by using the tension rods .... please show me how adjusting it at the top is going to differ from adjusting at the bottom and not create an alteration to the angle of the strut. Again ... same kind of adjustment ... different position of creation.

The only thing I can think of is that by adjusting the upper mount you would maintain the adjustment as the car dipped or raised up during suspension movement with a plate adjustment. The tension rod would have more gain as the suspension traveled upward and go more toward negative caster as the suspension extended. Now ... if this is the difference .... you're not conveying it clearly enough and I can see why one would want to maintain static caster as the suspension traveled .... however .... I like an increasing caster as the car dips and a decreasing caster as the car raises up .... that way when the car has roll in the front the caster increases and camber gain likewise increases .... hence why I run 2 degrees of camber on the front and still grip in the corners.

If I've stated something incorrectly ... please inform me where I am wrong .... I'm sure this discussion will enlighten some. And probably bore others ....

[ManoNegra]

As for the plates you posted only one has anything visible over camber adjustments ..... I see no other sliding plates or adjustments on the other plates. Furthermore, the one that does have a caster adjuster on it only has two positions which look about 4mm apart. That is not much movement or adjustment at all. Furthermore ... it is far from a slider ... I can see why you would want that, but I'd rather see at least 3-4 positions on something to make it actually a little more usable and tunable.

It may not be clear by looking at a few pictures
but there is adjustment along two axis on them
the issue in the design is that is the two aren't independent of each other as would be ideal
that is to say, it not easy to set caster and then adjust camber without affecting each other
they are a pain to dial in essence, not something that the average weekend racer can mess with easily
and should really be set with at a race suspension shop
the HKS ones look like a better design but for ~$600 a set I'm not about to find out anytime soon

I get what your saying about adjusting the angle at the bottom by using the tension rods .... please show me how adjusting it at the top is going to differ from adjusting at the bottom and not create an alteration to the angle of the strut. Again ... same kind of adjustment ... different position of creation.

ok, lets see
when adjusting caster through plates
you tilt the strut along the axis created by the LCA balljoint
the LCA pivot in the crossmember stays in place
the tie rod is pivoted up (or down) but you're going to fix your bump steer with aftermarket tie rod ends anyhow

when you shorten or lengthen your tension rod
you push or pull along that line
LCA gets pushed or pulled and so does the tie rod
at angles you can't compensate for

I don't know if that is any clearer but that's the best I can do
also if you like, google caster/camber plates and you'll see how just how many applications there are out there for a lot of cars

that they're aren't very well known to most 240 owners says something about our community

[Xplat]

Oookay, So after some searching it doesn't seem like my coilover's camber plates can adjust caster.

Now I'm still trying to understand how these plates adjust caster as well as camber as they look nearly identical to those that can't.

Anyone mind pointing out how one would adjust the caster on say the HKS caster/camber plates or the ground control ones?

EDIT:

These mustang caster/camber plates make all the sense in the world as far as adjusting camber and caster. I see the slots perpendicular to each other used for caster and camber. I just don't see that in any of the caster/camber plates you mentioned were for the 240.

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/4366/castercamberplate.jpg

[datboibrad]

caster plates seem like the right adiea by pivoting on the ball joint instead of basically twisting the controll arm bushing.

i saw a picture a while back on here where i an FC from PBM had redrilled the holes for his coilovers to basically rotate the cast plates. by doing this does that allow him to adjust caster and camber at the same time?

also why cant you achieve the same effect by just rotating the top hat? if not if you could just turn/redrill the top hat to allow you to slide the coil forward and backward to now control caster, then just slot the top mounting hole for the spindle bolts to adjust for more camber?

[JDMpurest]

Oookay, So after some searching it doesn't seem like my coilover's camber plates can adjust caster.

Now I'm still trying to understand how these plates adjust caster as well as camber as they look nearly identical to those that can't.

Anyone mind pointing out how one would adjust the caster on say the HKS caster/camber plates or the ground control ones?

EDIT:

These mustang caster/camber plates make all the sense in the world as far as adjusting camber and caster. I see the slots perpendicular to each other used for caster and camber. I just don't see that in any of the caster/camber plates you mentioned were for the 240.

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/4366/castercamberplate.jpg


You still havent figured out yet why everyone is ignoring your posts? You think this guy is just posting pictures of upper strut mounts telling you they adjust caster because hes bored? Maybe he gives enough of a shit to lie to you? The plates he posted adjust caster, Period. Now shut the fuck up and buy some. At least stop posting.

Your like the little kid at the grocery store that says "mommy i want candy" Mommy says "no it will spoil your dinner" And you keep biting at her ankles saying "no it wont no it wont i want candy"

[singlecamslam]

Wrong side of the bed today?^ He's just trying to see how they adjust caster, the ones he posted obviously have the slots for it, and they ones above dont. So why dont you chill out and explain instead of being a elitist dick.

[JDMpurest]

Wrong side of the bed today?^ He's just trying to see how they adjust caster, the ones he posted obviously have the slots for it, and they ones above dont. So why dont you chill out and explain instead of being a elitist dick.

Hey guess what he doesn't need to know how each one of them adjusts caster, all he has to do is buy one then figure it out. I don't know how to put a couch together but sure as shit when i buy one from Ikea it comes with directionssss. I'm not being an elitist dick i just wish people would have some common sense. The company's aren't lying; they adjust caster, just buy the one you want and the directions will show how to adjust it. Problem solved, he doesn't have to flood a thread with his nagging comments.

[Slidin' Sam]

OMG! Way to ruin a thread and start preaching stupidity. Caster is adjustable by aftermarket, adjustable, tension rods. Caster is not normally adjustable on a factory car (it is preset from the factory). Adjusting caster on a lowered car will help with front roll center, if done properly. Adjusting the caster is more important when using aftermarket knuckles. Adjusting caster will change out the steering feels, and that's about it. I have never seen "caster plates" that are adjustable where you can adjust camber at the top of coilovers. Those plates you are talking about adjust your camber only. Maybe if you somehow mounted your camber plates wrong you could adjust caster. Man, I really started to have some hope for zilvia, but this thread just brought my hopes down again.

To the op: thanks for the heads up and getting your caster adjusted when having a proffessional alignment done. I am sorry that the person who posted after you completely jacked up this thread.

[S14DB]

HKS has some nice double adjustable.

http://www.hksusa.com/images_products/3081.jpg
HKS USA 2-Way Adjustable Pillow Ball Mounts (http://www.hksusa.com/products/?id=2775)

[SoSideways]

OMG! Way to ruin a thread and start preaching stupidity. Caster is adjustable by aftermarket, adjustable, tension rods. Caster is not normally adjustable on a factory car (it is preset from the factory). Adjusting caster on a lowered car will help with front roll center, if done properly. Adjusting the caster is more important when using aftermarket knuckles. Adjusting caster will change out the steering feels, and that's about it. I have never seen "caster plates" that are adjustable where you can adjust camber at the top of coilovers. Those plates you are talking about adjust your camber only. Maybe if you somehow mounted your camber plates wrong you could adjust caster. Man, I really started to have some hope for zilvia, but this thread just brought my hopes down again.

To the op: thanks for the heads up and getting your caster adjusted when having a proffessional alignment done. I am sorry that the person who posted after you completely jacked up this thread.

So you're the pot calling the kettle black?

The ground control plates do indeed allow for caster adjustments, so do the Noltec ones.

Same with the way overpriced HKS ones.

Just the fact that you've "never seen caster plates" doesn't mean they don't exist.

Nobody made you the official authority on whether "caster plates" are out there for the S-chassis or not.

Or you can be open minded about it and do some research, instead of saying stupid shit like "wah I really started to have some hope for zilvia, but this thread just brought my hopes down again.?

I should be the one saying that, because of idiot members like yourself post non-sense in here thinking they're know-it-alls, when in fact you're part of the problem, part of the "not knowing", sitting there spreading misinformation.

[SoBay240guy]

Slidin' Sam:

SHUT UP. You are the reason people with engineering degrees quit coming to this site.

You talk out your ear just to get your post count,

How many examples are on THIS PAGE.

ManoNegra made very clear posts clarifying and citing manufacturers suggestions, you are encouraging people to make dangerous modifications to their cars, are you going to write their moms and dads and kids letters of apology wen their suspension fails on the freeway and kills them and 5 others in a pile up...

you sir are the dredge of this society, share information not heresay BS

Mike

[SoSideways]

Well, on THIS PAGE, there aren't any examples.

But there are a ton on the last one :D

[tougefactory]

How's this?

Stance camber/caster plates for S13/s14. Fits all Stance coilovers!

:wiggle:

http://www.stance-usa.com/images/st_camcas.jpg

Advantages - You don't have to pull the wheels forward to get caster anymore, which means more angle!
Also means you reduce bumpsteer.

[Slidin' Sam]

I can't find those one their web site. I would really like to get a good look at them.

SoBay: First, how are adjustable tension rods a dangerous modification? You are high if you thing so.

Second, I don't care about my post count...I don't walk around in life sizing myself up with other people, that's not me.

Third, These arguments and retards that make everything a pissing match, especially on a forum, is why a lot of engineers dont come to this site.

Fourth, You just did the same thing that you are accusing me of, so your kind sir, are now dredge on this society.

[SoBay240guy]

They aren't dangerous, your suggestion of how to use them is dangerous. Because they are NOT designed to adjust caster.

PER MFG RECOMMENDATIONS

[Slidin' Sam]

"More caster creates a self steer feeling while drifing and less caster is good for cars equipped with our super angle steering knuckles."

POWERED BY MAX: ????? Multilink Suspension (http://www.gtfactory.jp/cms/page.php?14)

This is straight from Parts Shop Max. PER MFG THEY RECOMMEND CHANGING THE CASTER.

Please enlighten me as to how changing the caster by using tension rods is dangerous. I am not concerned for my safety as well as my passengers, my friends, and people that are on the road with me. People have been changing their caster by using tension rods for years now, and maybe we are all in the wrong. Maybe it is EXTREMELY dangerous. If so I want to know why so that I can educate my friends on this high risk modification. Thanks.

[SoBay240guy]

loading the stock bushings in the LCA is where the problem is they aren't designed to operate outside of the few degrees of misalignment introduced by the arc the tension rod forces the LCA to travel through,

I can only presume that PBM expects you to have replaced that inner bushing with a pillowball/spherical bearing....IF this is done then the problem is lessened, however how much thought have you put into the fact that you are increasing toe also by moving the hub forward, and changing your ackerman by introducing angle to your tie rods not to mention wheelbase overall will grow.

Products specifically designed to adjust ONE characteristic at a time are much easier/safer to tune with as they don't have the snowball effect of changing everything a little bit. (think of lowering your car and the camber increase from it)

By moving the end point of the shock absorber (at the shock tower per listed caster plates) limits the other geometry changes giving ONLY the desired affects and without stressing factory parts.

Besides all that a JDM site in bad engrish that specializes in drift specific parts is hardly a DOT endorsement for safe freeway motoring...how many broken sets of welded knuckles are out there??? but PBM recommends and sells those too.

Mike

[Hashiriya415]

Is there anything wrong with slotting out the stock tower holes?

[Slidin' Sam]

loading the stock bushings in the LCA is where the problem is they aren't designed to operate outside of the few degrees of misalignment introduced by the arc the tension rod forces the LCA to travel through,

I can only presume that PBM expects you to have replaced that inner bushing with a pillowball/spherical bearing....IF this is done then the problem is lessened, however how much thought have you put into the fact that you are increasing toe also by moving the hub forward, and changing your ackerman by introducing angle to your tie rods not to mention wheelbase overall will grow.

Products specifically designed to adjust ONE characteristic at a time are much easier/safer to tune with as they don't have the snowball effect of changing everything a little bit. (think of lowering your car and the camber increase from it)

By moving the end point of the shock absorber (at the shock tower per listed caster plates) limits the other geometry changes giving ONLY the desired affects and without stressing factory parts.

Besides all that a JDM site in bad engrish that specializes in drift specific parts is hardly a DOT endorsement for safe freeway motoring...how many broken sets of welded knuckles are out there??? but PBM recommends and sells those too.

Mike

So your saying that by adjusting your caster by the use of tension rods you are putting added wear on the LCA bushings, which overtime will wear them out faster and put them out of factory spec, correct?

Now, what you recommend is to adjust the caster at the top of the coilover through the use of caster plates. Now by doing this, would you also place added stress on the LCA and also the tension rod?

PBM say's "OK to install independant from any other suspension part." about their tension rods. So, I am assuming you can install these without changing your LCA's. Also, when you purchase their knuckles, the box in your OEM LCA's, so it would be reasonable to believe that they intend for you to use the OEM LCA with their knuckles and tension rods.

As far as the Japanese web site and bad "engrish" deal, I am pretty sure (especially judging by the English on their site) that the English portion was written by the guy's in San Diego, not the guy's in Japan. Also, I can read Japanese, so I know it is not a bad translation.

Now as far as welded knuckles breaking, I believe most of them have happened in crashes. I personally do not know anybody who has broken a welded knuckle by driving on the freeway. Also, the PBM knuckles are not cut and weld knuckles, they simply add to the factory knuckle. I am sure you are willing to argue that the piece they weld on will break and the tierod will then fall off the knuckle, whatever. You also have to look at the knuckles you have seen that have failed. Were they during R&D? Were they a result of crashing? Who welded the knuckles and what are his credentials? How many of these knuckles failed as a result of daily driving?

[S14DB]

So your saying that by adjusting your caster by the use of tension rods you are putting added wear on the LCA bushings, which overtime will wear them out faster and put them out of factory spec, correct?
The bushing in the FLCA that bolts to the subframe is only designed to go straight up and down The bushing has some give for some dynamic forces and misalignment through travel.

If you pull the FLCA forward past the oem specs you put a side load on the front side of that bushing causing uneven wear and more then likely binding of the FLCA on the subfame.
Now, what you recommend is to adjust the caster at the top of the coilover through the use of caster plates. Now by doing this, would you also place added stress on the LCA and also the tension rod? No cause the Coilover is bolted to the Knuckle which is attached to the FLCA buy the ball joint. The ball joint has a wide range of motion 360* and won't bind with this adjustment.

The FLCA stays inline with the subframe and doesn't move forward or back with this adjustment. The Knuckle pivots forward or back on the ball joint on it's wide range of motion.

The reason they say this is ideal because it is directly pivoting the knuckle on it's axis adjusting caster. Not pulling the FLCA forward and adjusting it indirectly.

The TC rod is a certain length from the factory and non adjustable for a reason. Shortening it not only changes the caster at rest but also makes the sweep of the FLCA totally different changing the caster and toe at a rate that is not ideal.


The reason that your article says to do it and adjustable rods are prevalent is because TC rods are a lot cheaper and somewhat easier to replace then adjustable strut mounts. It's cheap not right.

I do have adjustable TC rods. They are adjusted to factory length. I only have them to eliminate the slop with the factory bushing going to a solid heim joint.

[Slidin' Sam]

I have been enlightened. Thank you. Good explanation there. I actually had to draw out the suspension configuration on a piece of paper to look at it. It seems like you would not be able to get a whole lot of caster adjustment though, because of the stress that would then be on the ball joint when turning, but I guess at the same time, how much caster do you really need. Hmmmm....very interesting topic. Thanks!

[SoSideways]

So basically you came on here, sort of attacked the people that know how the suspensions on our cars work, then found out that they were right all along since you yourself didn't even know how everything worked in the first place?

Wow.

[SoSideways]

How's this?

Stance camber/caster plates for S13/s14. Fits all Stance coilovers!

:wiggle:

http://www.stance-usa.com/images/st_camcas.jpg

Advantages - You don't have to pull the wheels forward to get caster anymore, which means more angle!
Also means you reduce bumpsteer.

So... how much are these?

[Slidin' Sam]

Ummmm....no. But I admitted when I was wrong unlike all the other people on this forum. So if you really wanna try and talk more shit to me after I went ahead and made a humble statement aknowledging that I was wrong and saying thank you to the people who provided some good information, and then helped me understand it.

[SoBay240guy]

Slidin' Sam :bigok:

[Hashiriya415]

now wait a moment lets get back to the caster adjustment subject, as I was saying is there anything wrong with slotting the 3 bolt holes that hold the struts to the chassis tower at the top to allow for caster adjustment.

[SoBay240guy]

Manonegra mentioned that Sam at J-spec had done just that

However care should be taken...that is a structural portion of your car you'd be hacking up...I would recommend reinforcing the top of the tower with another piece of material welded on top (or underneath) just to be safe...plus with a template cut into the reinforcement it will be more accurate than hacking around with a carbide burr on a grinder

[PoorMans180SX]

Good thread all in all.

I need to get some double-adjustable upper mounts.

Tougefactory, come back to the thread! When are those coming out and how much will they be?

[articdragon192]

So how do cars with multilink set ups up front like the Z and R chassis adjust caster properly? All I have for caster adjustment are my adjustable tension rods. Adjust the top coilover mount won't do anything.

[ghettohatch]

adjustable arms + firestone in redlands + lifetime alignment = done!!

[Def]

Good thread all in all.

I need to get some double-adjustable upper mounts.

Tougefactory, come back to the thread! When are those coming out and how much will they be?

The Techno Tuning camber plates are caster adjustable as well. I've got a set I need to toss in.