Help!! Welded differential (How not to)

[NewYorkCoupe]

I'm gonna start off by saying that I try to do everything myself because I like to know its done right. When it came to welding a differential, I just didnt have the right welder to do the job.

A friend who is a professional welder said he'd be happy to help and thats where I ran into issues.

Box Weld came out great.... OR SO I THOUGHT!
-The welds are fantastic

http://i433.photobucket.com/albums/qq53/midnmandrino/DSCF9247.jpg

When I looked a little harder, I found that the plate that got welded in was a little to small and was resting on the pin running through the center of the differential ( the one the axels rest on).

PROBLEM: The plates wont let the axels go all the way in. (see below pictures)

http://i433.photobucket.com/albums/qq53/midnmandrino/DSCF9244.jpg

http://i433.photobucket.com/albums/qq53/midnmandrino/DSCF9241.jpg

SOLUTION: Well at the moment I'm looking for you guys to maybe help me out. My thoughts at the moment are...

1. Cut off the beveled end of the axels, so that the axels rest flat on the plates sticking in from each side.

2. Machine out about 3/8" - 1/2" on each side of the end of the axel, so that it fits between the plates and touches the center pin. Kind of a tongue and groove idea.


So what do you guys think would be the best approach?

Im trying to salvage this shitty situation. :bash:

[fliprayzin240sx]

Get another open diff and start from scratch...fuck cutting corners. Shit like this is how you blow something up and make it worst for yourself.

[s13 @ fullboost]

I have an open diff for sale if you wanna pay shipping its yours.

[NewYorkCoupe]

I really dont see where I "CUT CORNERS" on this.

[NewYorkCoupe]

I have an open diff for sale if you wanna pay shipping its yours.

Hey I should know by the end of the week if I need a new one. Ill keep you in mind. Thanks man

[s13 @ fullboost]

yeah no problem

[bardabe]

Throw it away, and try again.

[RPS13-604]

I really dont see where I "CUT CORNERS" on this.

welded diff= ghetto

Go and buy a real LSD thats the right way

[NewYorkCoupe]

welded diff= ghetto

Go and buy a real LSD thats the right way


This is not a welded vs vlsd vs 1.5/2 way differential bullshit thread. Lets keep this focused please.

[DJDANGER24]

personally i'd go with 3. toss this and try it again, dont go messing with the axles and throwing the balance off, it may cause more problems for you in the future you know ?

[gsxr141]

is there any way to take the diff apart and cut out the offending metal? if not, i say get another diff and start again.
on another note, let me know if you need a hand. i'm in rochester also.

[NewYorkCoupe]

UPDATE

I will be using a mill to remove rectangle sections that will easily allow me to remove the offending metal. Ill update with pictures when possible.

In the meantime, any other ideas throw em out.

[NewYorkCoupe]

is there any way to take the diff apart and cut out the offending metal? if not, i say get another diff and start again.
on another note, let me know if you need a hand. i'm in rochester also.


Hey man thanks for the offer, if I get hung up on anything Ill hit you up. Where abouts are you at?

[gsxr141]

i live near the beach in charlotte.

[NewYorkCoupe]

Thats a riot, I worked at pier 45 at the port for a while, and will be back soon.

[Trevor87]

open diffs are pretty much free...i dont see why your going to mill your diff out instead of just welding another one

[ericcastro]

Start new or very carefully remove the metal from the plate in the diff.
Dont mess with the axles.
if you break one, you cant just toss another one on in 15 minutes.
It will take you several days to make the new axle fit.

i didnt use a plate.
I just had the neighbor weld up the 4 corners and turn it over and the 4 corners.
The plate is overkill/insurence imo.
Just get some deep and slow heat on the corners and it will hold fine.

[orion::S14]

Juts cut the axles shorter...it will be fine.

There will be PLENTY of spline engagement...same as stock, actually...since all you'll need to cut off is the pointed end (or a little of the splines...but any amount of spline you'd cut off wouldn't be engaged anyway - it would be just in the center section).

Seriously, how is that half-assed at all? It's a perfectly acceptable solution.

??? - Brian

[gsxr141]

apparently welding a diff is ghetto. muscle car guys have been doing it forever. i think it's a perfectly acceptable low dollar upgrade. i've had mine done for 8 months and it's holding up fine. the best part is if it breaks, you can get another diff for cheap.

[iROYAL]

Juts cut the axles shorter...it will be fine.

There will be PLENTY of spline engagement...same as stock, actually...since all you'll need to cut off is the pointed end (or a little of the splines...but any amount of spline you'd cut off wouldn't be engaged anyway - it would be just in the center section).

Seriously, how is that half-assed at all? It's a perfectly acceptable solution.

??? - Brian

Yes, finally someone said it. I agree with orion and shave off the tip of the half shafts since they stick out inside the differential. The end that's smooth after the splines does not engage and therefore can be sacrificed in a situation like this.

Racepar1 and I were in the same situation with my car. This was the solution we came with.

[roboticnissan]

I can get it done lifetime guarantee for 50

[ericcastro]

apparently welding a diff is ghetto. muscle car guys have been doing it forever. i think it's a perfectly acceptable low dollar upgrade. i've had mine done for 8 months and it's holding up fine. the best part is if it breaks, you can get another diff for cheap.
exactly.
My Rat Rod neighbor was like,
"you mean a locker?"
they have done it forever.

Yes, finally someone said it. I agree with orion and shave off the tip of the half shafts since they stick out inside the differential. The end that's smooth after the splines does not engage and therefore can be sacrificed in a situation like this.

Racepar1 and I were in the same situation with my car. This was the solution we came with.
drifting can break axles though, so it shouldn't be a permanent solution.
I havent changed any axles, but i have one freind thats gone through 7 or so.
just know your risk ;)

[Rabboni]

I dont understand why you want to spend the money to machine new axles when it could probably be cheaper to acquire another diff and reweld it.

[codyace]

i didnt use a plate.
I just had the neighbor weld up the 4 corners and turn it over and the 4 corners.
The plate is overkill/insurence imo.
Just get some deep and slow heat on the corners and it will hold fine.

Winner winner, chicken dinner.

Seriously, I'm not sure where this 'rage' over a bulllshit plate came into the equation, but it really doesn't make a damn difference.

Welded diff secret, Ace Trucking style:

1. Brake Clean the diff...get that oil off there. Use a hole can, they are only like 3 bucks.

2. Torch. Get the motherfucker nice and warm, and burn any leftover oil.

3. Let it cool

4. Torch it again, get er hot

5. Break out the welder, and on the cooldown, get some weld in there. Ain't gotta be prettry, just gotta stick. Do this as needed on all spider gears, and you'll be good as pie.


I dunno where this 'secret art' came from, but following my abov emethod will last an entire demo derby heat, as well as a final, and then another demo later. That works for me!

[duffman1278]

I dunno where this 'secret art' came from, but following my abov emethod will last an entire demo derby heat, as well as a final, and then another demo later. That works for me!

It came from PBM when people saw how they did it, people on zilvia started wetting themselves and saying "this is the right way to do it, don't tack it"

I got mine welded exactly like ericcastro's, welded the 4 corners, front and back, never had an issue.

[I LUV MY S13]

Juts cut the axles shorter...it will be fine.

There will be PLENTY of spline engagement...same as stock, actually...since all you'll need to cut off is the pointed end (or a little of the splines...but any amount of spline you'd cut off wouldn't be engaged anyway - it would be just in the center section).

Seriously, how is that half-assed at all? It's a perfectly acceptable solution.

??? - Brian

first thing that popped in my head...but i would honestly go with a new one

[ericcastro]

Winner winner, chicken dinner.

Seriously, I'm not sure where this 'rage' over a bulllshit plate came into the equation, but it really doesn't make a damn difference.

Welded diff secret, Ace Trucking style:

1. Brake Clean the diff...get that oil off there. Use a hole can, they are only like 3 bucks.

2. Torch. Get the motherfucker nice and warm, and burn any leftover oil.

3. Let it cool

4. Torch it again, get er hot

5. Break out the welder, and on the cooldown, get some weld in there. Ain't gotta be prettry, just gotta stick. Do this as needed on all spider gears, and you'll be good as pie.


I dunno where this 'secret art' came from, but following my abov emethod will last an entire demo derby heat, as well as a final, and then another demo later. That works for me!

It came from PBM when people saw how they did it, people on zilvia started wetting themselves and saying "this is the right way to do it, don't tack it"

I got mine welded exactly like ericcastro's, welded the 4 corners, front and back, never had an issue.

Ive been on mine for 3 years like that.
I also personally feel that 2 metal plates like that throw off the balance.
(also a consideration in notching the axles).
although, such a small amount might be nill, look at how small the counter weights on tires and drive shafts are.
(probably more of a mental thing for me)

[NewYorkCoupe]

Wow guys I fall asleep and you guys go at it! The idea of the welded differential is some serious old school muscle...they called it the Lincoln Locker.

I figured if I was gonna have someone else weld it, they might as well plate it aka overkill on welds, but its a little more peace of mind on my end.

[racepar1]

I had the same problem with a customer's diff the he supplied. After getting a couple other welded diffs that were both bad, cracked welds and such, I just machined the stub shafts to clear. The way yours is welded is pretty strong, but you just need to clearence the stub shafts. Just make sure that the snap ring groove in the stub shafts are not disturbed...

[fcdrifter20]

Winner winner, chicken dinner.

Seriously, I'm not sure where this 'rage' over a bulllshit plate came into the equation, but it really doesn't make a damn difference.

Welded diff secret, Ace Trucking style:

1. Brake Clean the diff...get that oil off there. Use a hole can, they are only like 3 bucks.

2. Torch. Get the motherfucker nice and warm, and burn any leftover oil.

3. Let it cool

4. Torch it again, get er hot

5. Break out the welder, and on the cooldown, get some weld in there. Ain't gotta be prettry, just gotta stick. Do this as needed on all spider gears, and you'll be good as pie.


I dunno where this 'secret art' came from, but following my abov emethod will last an entire demo derby heat, as well as a final, and then another demo later. That works for me!

YES!!! this is my procedure exactly lol. i have been doing them like this for the las several years, and have not had a problem yet

[racepar1]

drifting can break axles though, so it shouldn't be a permanent solution.
I havent changed any axles, but i have one freind thats gone through 7 or so.
just know your risk ;)

Nah, it won't make any difference in reliability. All the material that you have to cut off is just "extra" that sticks through the gear. Since you are just machining the shaft to be flush with the gear you still have the same spline engagement and thus the same strength. I haven't heard of too many people breaking stub shafts anyways...

[codyace]

Nah, it won't make any difference in reliability. All the material that you have to cut off is just "extra" that sticks through the gear. Since you are just machining the shaft to be flush with the gear you still have the same spline engagement and thus the same strength. I haven't heard of too many people breaking stub shafts anyways...

Agreed, it's not going to make much a difference for the little it's machined.

[ericcastro]

Nah, it won't make any difference in reliability. All the material that you have to cut off is just "extra" that sticks through the gear. Since you are just machining the shaft to be flush with the gear you still have the same spline engagement and thus the same strength. I haven't heard of too many people breaking stub shafts anyways...

Agreed, it's not going to make much a difference for the little it's machined.

I didnt state what I meant clear enough.
I ramble and am horriable online.

What I mean is,
If he does break an axle at a drift event, He CAN'T replace it there.
Because he would have to machine the end off of any axle that he wanted to put on.

Im not worried about the axle breaking cause of the tiny amount it will weaken it, Im worried about the replacement.



make sense?

[fcdrifter20]

I didnt state what I meant clear enough.
I ramble and am horriable online.

What I mean is,
If he does break an axle at a drift event, He CAN'T replace it there.
Because he would have to machine the end off of any axle that he wanted to put on.

Im not worried about the axle breaking cause of the tiny amount it will weaken it, Im worried about the replacement.



make sense?

makes perfect sense.

[racepar1]

I didnt state what I meant clear enough.
I ramble and am horriable online.

What I mean is,
If he does break an axle at a drift event, He CAN'T replace it there.
Because he would have to machine the end off of any axle that he wanted to put on.

Im not worried about the axle breaking cause of the tiny amount it will weaken it, Im worried about the replacement.



make sense?

The theory makes sense, except that it's not an axle, it's a stub shaft...

:D

I've honestly never heard of anyone breaking a stub shaft and his axles are un-modified. I would personally like to have a spare set though, but I doubt that I would carry them with me.

You know I love you Eric...

;)

[ericcastro]

The theory makes sense, except that it's not an axle, it's a stub shaft...

:D

I've honestly never heard of anyone breaking a stub shaft and his axles are un-modified. I would personally like to have a spare set though, but I doubt that I would carry them with me.

You know I love you Eric...

;)

ah, your right.
i was picturing the wrong side of the axle.
I think his pic threw me off.
I have never actually pulled the sides off my diff.
so seeing that, i kept thinking the axle was going in the other way, lol.

can you tell i havent had to mess with that shit on my car since i put it in 3 years ago, lol



yeah, just shave it evenly i would say.
do it slowly with breaks so the heat of a grinder doesnt change the molecular structure(strength) of the part.
and it will be weaker as you are taking a bit off, but nothing measurable i would think :)


BTW RACEPAR, you driving again soon?
wsir?
im not for a few months but would love to come watch.
(yeah, i actually like motorsports and not just fanboying;) )

[bardabe]

Winner winner, chicken dinner.

Seriously, I'm not sure where this 'rage' over a bulllshit plate came into the equation, but it really doesn't make a damn difference.

Welded diff secret, Ace Trucking style:

1. Brake Clean the diff...get that oil off there. Use a hole can, they are only like 3 bucks.

2. Torch. Get the motherfucker nice and warm, and burn any leftover oil.

3. Let it cool

4. Torch it again, get er hot

5. Break out the welder, and on the cooldown, get some weld in there. Ain't gotta be prettry, just gotta stick. Do this as needed on all spider gears, and you'll be good as pie.


I dunno where this 'secret art' came from, but following my abov emethod will last an entire demo derby heat, as well as a final, and then another demo later. That works for me!

why are you not dead? brake cleaner and Carburator cleaner have some very toxic fumes when combined with the Argon from a welder.

Best way to do a Diff, is with a Tig Welder. Cast, and Forged Metals don't bond well with MIG rod, that is why people re enforce it which only makes it more catastrophic when it grenades, the only way i would ever have a Differential Done is with a TIG. anyone that has met me, and has my diffs know how anal i am about it.

[ericcastro]

why are you not dead? brake cleaner and Carburator cleaner have some very toxic fumes when combined with the Argon from a welder.

Best way to do a Diff, is with a Tig Welder. Cast, and Forged Metals don't bond well with MIG rod, that is why people re enforce it which only makes it more catastrophic when it grenades, the only way i would ever have a Differential Done is with a TIG. anyone that has met me, and has my diffs know how anal i am about it.

gotta just let the cleaner evaporate for awhile. :)


you say something about anal Juan??:ddog:

[codyace]

why are you not dead? brake cleaner and Carburator cleaner have some very toxic fumes when combined with the Argon from a welder.

Best way to do a Diff, is with a Tig Welder. Cast, and Forged Metals don't bond well with MIG rod, that is why people re enforce it which only makes it more catastrophic when it grenades, the only way i would ever have a Differential Done is with a TIG. anyone that has met me, and has my diffs know how anal i am about it.

I usually use a Arc Welder for diffs as it gets much hotter, but suggested Mig as that's what most people have. Mig works great if you get it hot enough (aka: torch) as well. The torch will also burn most of the leftover oil and brake cleaner almost instantly.

Again, I've done 15+ Demo Cars at this point, and Enduro cars as well. Not ones broken. Not saying your method won't work, but I know mines tried and true, not just for me but the countelss other guys who do the same process locally.

As they say, there are two ways to bake a pie right? I'm not looking to get into a debate...there is the perfect way, and there is the way that works.

[racepar1]

Blah blah blah grinder blah blah blah

LOL! Ya, have fun with that! I tried a grinder, those hardened stub shafts don't like to grind very well. I estimated that it would take eleventy billion hours to simply grind it off after spending 5 minutes on a grinder. I jimmy'd em up in a chop saw to get the majority off and then finished them off on the lathe.


BTW RACEPAR, you driving again soon?
wsir?
im not for a few months but would love to come watch.
(yeah, i actually like motorsports and not just fanboying;) )

I wish, my car is in about 100 bajillion pieces right now. I have more projects then I can count and a pretty much non-existent budget at the moment. The plan is for some "version" of my car to pe present and competing at the redline time attack at the end of march. Unfortuanetly that plan is HEAVILY dependant on a nice tax return because as of right now I technically don't have an engine. Luckily most of what I have to do is fabrication and costs little to nothing to get done, just time. Since you're a premie you can see my build thread... :coolugh: It's pretty well up to date, but there will be another update coming soon.

[LayNLow]

why are you not dead? brake cleaner and Carburator cleaner have some very toxic fumes when combined with the Argon from a welder.

I was going to say the same thing, but you have it wrong. Argon is an innert gas, meaning it doesnt react with anything. Its chemicals in the brake cleaner, mainly the chlorine that when exposed to very high temperatures turnes it into a bad gas.
Read this
Brake Cleaner = Phosgene Article (http://www.brewracingframes.com/id75.htm)

[LayNLow]

Oops, double post.

[S13 curtis]

get another diff and weld it like this my buddys diff that is still being used for 3+ years and still going strong

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh147/franchis3bo1/weldeddiff.jpg