500hp sr20 fuel system help

[frankenfresh]

i had my car's fuel system (s13 silvia) set up for 300hp but have since upgraded a lot of things and will be running between 450 and 500 whp on a red top sr20det with nismo 740 side feed injectors, sard fpr, and aftermarket side feed fuel rail.

first question is, whats the hp rating for a walbro 255?
im assuming that I will need to replace it with something that pumps a little more but am not sure. opinions on what i should be using?

ive read that i'll need to run -6an or -8an fuel lines from my tank to the engine bay. can someone explain these lines to me? are these professionally built lines that are crimped together similar to brake lines? or is it something that you just build yourself with a fuel line and ends that you clamp on yourself?

with the hp that im looking to run now, should i be looking into running some kind of fuel surge tank? or is that overkill?

[Z U L8R]

if you wanna do it cheap, get an inline walboro 255 fuel pump and run them in tandem before the fuel filter, that will be adequate........

however if you wanna do it right, get an areomotive A1000, some -6 steel braided hoses, and some fitting's and some hose ends from summit racing. just know your thread size pitch's of the fuel rail and the fuel tank. also get yourself a good fuel filter.

use tape and a ziz wheel to make clean cuts in the hose. then put a cloth on the vice and hold your fitting. twist in the steal braided line. flip your line and hose, put some oil/lube on the threads of the male side of the fitting then screw it on until it tightens up...just don't strip the aluminum and don't poke your finger with the steal cable =]

gl

Dave

[frankenfresh]

ok, but if i run an external fuel pump, where do i put the suction line on the stock fuel tank? do i just run a submersable fuel line in the top of the tank where the stock fuel pump would have been and let it just hang there?

[fliprayzin240sx]

ok, but if i run an external fuel pump, where do i put the suction line on the stock fuel tank? do i just run a submersable fuel line in the top of the tank where the stock fuel pump would have been and let it just hang there?

He said in tandem...meaning you run 2 pumps at the same time. The walbro that you have already thats inside the tank and an external one thats hooked up to the same line to the fuel filter.

[Z U L8R]

as far as i understand you already have an in tank walboro 255 fuel pump. that pump right now is pumping the fuel to your filter. therefore what i'm telling you is to simply add an inline walboro 255 fuel pump inbetween the one in your gas tank and the fuel filter. therefore you have 2 fuel pumps running in tandem.

wire in another 30 amp 12 volt relay and use the black/pink fuel pump relay signal wire (ground) to click over that extra relay for your extra pump. just tap into the existing black/pink wire.

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc313/Z_U_L8R/fuelpumprelay.jpg
1 and 3 = battery constant 12 volts
2 = the fuel pump relay signal from the ecu (just tap into the one already there for your intank pump)
5 = goes to the positive terminal on your inline fuel pump (put a 30amp inline fuse somewhere in between here for safety)

then ground the other terminal of your inline walboro.

done, gl

Dave

[frankenfresh]

honestly i'd rather just do it right with an a1000 and 6an or 8an lines all the way to the fuel pressure regualor and back to the tank.

i keep reading about the short comings of the factory fuel lines and i don't want to mickey mouse shit when it comes to fuel.

i just don't know how to set up the suction tube on an external fuel pump to my my factory fuel tank. and if i should run 6an or 8an lines up to the front of the car.

[R33E8]

a1000's are loud as hell... Why not just go with dual walbro's in parallel? In series you can run higher fuel pressure, in parallel you can flow more fuel.. If you are looking for more fuel for more power, go with parallel, not series..

[Z U L8R]

a1000's are loud as hell... Why not just go with dual walbro's in parallel? In series you can run higher fuel pressure, in parallel you can flow more fuel.. If you are looking for more fuel for more power, go with parallel, not series..

they are loud as hell.

as far as getting an aeromotive fuel pump on your car you can install the a1000 the same way as the inline walboro since this is an inline fuel pump as well. you can replace your factory rubber fuel lines with -6 steal braided hose and either reduce it down to 1/4 barbed fittings on each end of the a1000 and secure all connectections with strong clamps. which would be the easiest of the three

option 2 is use -6 hose ends on each end of the pump then get the correct -6 fittings.

option 3: take down, drain, wash out your factory gas tank, weld a 2" sump on it and use -6 or -8 weld on bungs or bulkhead fittings, and spend tons of money on the whole set up. ( i have $1800 in my fuel system on my ka-t datsun 510 )

option 4: do option 3 except with a fuel cell

doing an inline walboro in tandem is fine for 500rwhp man seriously and if you're concerned about your fuel lines busting then use -6 hose and replace all the rubber hoses with that. you don't NEED to overkill it, but if you do you do.

oh i just thought of something easier.....

if you have an s13 then the top of your fuel sending unit is steel. therefore you could take it out, clean it off, cut the factory out line flush then weld a steel -6 bung to the top of it, and do the same with your fuel rail.

if you have an s14, you can use bulkhead fittings.....gonna be trickier but can be done.

just so you know. your fuel system starts at the gas tank, goes to the pump(s), then to the filter, then it feeds all the injectors, then goes to the fuel pressure regulator, then the excess returns back to the tank. the fuel pressure regulator has to be after the injectors that way everything in between the regulator and fuel pump will be at that set/adjustable pressure. you can't go from the pump to the regulator then to the injectors...

gl

Dave

[s15specR]

a100 requires the controller in order to run on a daily driver, I would run the walbro intank and a Bosch 044 inline, some Injector Dynamic a1000's and the aeromitve a1000-6 (i think) fpr, that should get you there easily.

You can upgrade your fuel lines but anything -6an would be almost the same as using stock, if you want to spend extra monnet maybe a -8am from the tank, but not really required.

[smelly240]

i have this exact setup but with pte 1000s

I want to do all an lines but havent yet - It gets pricey.

I have both pumps on relays in the trunk - both triggered by the ecu pump trigger wire

they are wired to a fuse directly off the battery

[s15specR]

Buddy of mines did this to his s14 fuel tank cover, he's fueling a 2J though, in your case you can use your stock return and use the stock feed or rerun a -8an.

FYI: The new generation aeromotive A1000's can be mounted in tank and plumping to the front will be straight forward from there.


http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/105/l_04710a6c5d684d7a8f1bad4505d36a50.jpg

[smelly240]

do those fittings have a nylon washer and nut on bottom - or are they just screwed into the plastic?

[MeanS14]

Here is another option. Run two walbro's in the tank and join them with a y fitting. Then weld on some fitting to fuel tank cover and use -an fittings. For this setup the hardlines were changed to 3/8 instead of the stock 5/16 and swagelok fittings were use to adapt the braided -an line to the hardline
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p218/silviasr20driftkingalex/Joe1.jpg
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p218/silviasr20driftkingalex/Joe2.jpg
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p218/silviasr20driftkingalex/Joe3.jpg
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p218/silviasr20driftkingalex/Joe4.jpg

[s15specR]

do those fittings have a nylon washer and nut on bottom - or are they just screwed into the plastic?


I used nylon washers on mines, but I only plumbed one feed line and used the stock return.

I do like the welded approach but my tank cover was plastic.

[canary-s14a]

First, sorry for bumping up this "old" thread, but as its very complete, i think it will be very helpfull to have same related questions in here

Im building my fuel system for my weekend street legal and time attack track s14 sr, honestly i dont know how much power i will run, hope something around 450-480

I have 2.2 stroker, completely built head, full race gt3076 turbo kit, greddy intake manifold and tomei throttle body and other stuff

But in fueling im not sure and i want to make things ok, but cant spend all the money that i wanted to...

I have circuit sports fuel rail for side feed injectors, sard fpr (small type, not rj), 740cc hks injectors, walbro 255 in tank and hard wiring kit for pump

Im thinking in: autobahn88 an6 lines and fittings, change to 850cc injectors (will loose some money selling hks 740), bosh 044 inline with the walbro intake, autobahn88 surge tank (using stock fuel tank), an6 fuel filter/s

some questions that im trying to answer...

- whats the name of the fittings i need for the s14 plastic stock fuel tank cap?
- Necesary an8 lines or its ok with an6 ?
-its ok with 740cc? need 850cc? sell injectors and fuel rail and buy top feed 1000 and top feedfuel rail?
- its ok with bosch 044 or do i need aeromotive a1000? its more expensive...
- do i need twin paralel bosh 044?
- about fuel filters, have seen aem fuel filters, and aeromotive ones, expensive... autobahn have an6 fittings, 30o and 150o, but dont know if this ones will be too restrictive? maybe 2 in paralel? probably you would say its cheap rubish... as its really cheap comparing to aem and aeromotive... AN -6 AN06 Billet Magnetic Fuel Filter 30 Micron AN6 on eBay (end time 16-Feb-11 07:44:07 GMT) (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/6-AN06-Billet-Magnetic-Fuel-Filter-30-Micron-AN6-/250770975130?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item3a631d699a)
- do i need to upgrade the fuel pressure regulador or just buy an6 fittings for it? will be ok with sard or tomei bigger options? or do i need aeromotive style ones?


I can just try and see if i need more fueling during the ecu tune, but i will like to make it done from now... and maybe anyone here could help me for it...

thanks in advance guys ;)

[aled]

Here's a write-up of a Bosch 044 In-Tank:

www.ka-t.org :: View topic - HOW TO: INSTALL BOSCH 044 in S14 (http://www.ka-t.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=50539&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=&sid=3bb06531f25ed09071d882c3cdd3ec50)

Need more base fuel rail pressure, spend $115 and wire in the Walbro 255 in-line.

Not, SR related; I'm using all -6 AN Lines, Walbro 255 In-Tank that feeds an In-Line Walbro directly to an In-Line Filter and then to the rail and 680cc Injectors for my 1JZ Setup.

[travbabble]

I made 462whp with just a walboro 255 and 850cc injectors. I just used a twin turbo z fuel filter. I used the stock fuel pressure regulator, and it worked fine for me but I was going to switch to the nismo one.

[Seraphim38]

A few things that people need to understand:

The Aeromotive pump is of a style that sheds small particulates so you have to run a billet fuel filter before and after the pump. It generates a lot of heat, so if you are running an engine configuration that most of the time doesn't use the fuel that the pump is pushing, it will heat up the gas that is returning to the fuel tank. It is a material enough effect that it is suggested to run a fuel cooler if you aren't consuming all the fuel, and that's a recommendation made to big block guys who can suck down a lot of fuel. On an SR20DET most of the time the fuel will be superheated and returning to the fuel tank, which doesn’t help things. Aermotive makes a fuel pump controller that will back the pump down when not needed, but it's an added headache.

The Bosch 044 pump is an excellent alternative. Even though it is also recommended to run a filter before and after an 044, it isn’t nearly as dirty of a pump as the Aeromotive is. For someone running to a peak load of 500rwhp on an SR, an 044 should be plenty.

If you are wanting to go overboard, dual external Walbros will work fine. Most people aren’t aware that the external Walbros flow a little more than the internal versions, but not enough for it to really matter all that much. The dual Walbros don’t heat the fuel like the Aeromotive setup does, you don’t have to run a filter after the pumps and by chance if one of the pumps goes down you can still get home on one. There are some really nice billet Y blocks made for this kind of a setup. I built a sumped dual pump fuel system capable of handling 800rwhp for my supercharged V8 Mustang Cobra, and it had this type of a setup. I can post pictures if desired. Also, if you are going to run a dual pump setup, you will need to run a power relay and a large 30 amp fuse probably direct to the battery, as they will melt a 20 amp fuse very quickly. I know because I have done it.

For reference, there is a company that builds these systems for Mustangs and they sell complete dual and triple Walbro systems. Home - Glenn's Performance (http://www.glennsperformance.com) That’s where I bought my system.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n233/seraphim38/Cobra%20build/IMG_0231w.jpg

Canary, for your questions:
-AN6 lines are fine for your application. I ran –AN8 lines for my Cobra build but it was a V8, and it was overkill.
-740cc injectors will be unable to run 480rwhp without being too high of a duty cycle. It would be better to run 1000cc.
-dual parallel 044s would support a 1,100rwhp v8 monstrosity. You don’t need nearly that much fuel pump. More pump than you need just heats the fuel by pushing it by a hot engine and pressurizing it.
-billet aftermarket 100 and 10 micron filters, like the Aeromotive ones, are not restrictive on flow so there’s no need to run them in parallel.
-DON’T skimp on your fuel system. DON’T think that going lean at WOT will do anything other than blow up a motor you have 10 grand into. I have seen it happen. A friend blew a $10K+ 630rwhp supercharged V8 running off dual Walbros because the power supply/cable to the pumps wasn’t adequate. Now he runs triple Walbros.
-You should buy a quality fuel pressure regulator. The Aeromotive 13109 is a common, industry standard unit.

[MadScientist]

^^^ good shit right there... here is more...

PSI multiplied by 6.8948 = KPa (Kilopascals)

AEM:
1.4 kg/cm2 (bar) + no info
138 KPa + no info

OBX:
1.7 - 4.0 kg/cm2 (bar)
172 - 400 KPA

HKS:
2.0 - 5.0 kg/cm2 (bar)
200 - 500 KPa

Nismo/ Tomei:
2.0 - 6.0 kg/cm2 (bar)
200 - 600KPa

SARD:
2.0 - 8.0 kg/cm2 (bar)
200 - 800KPa

Ohhh right... you guys got me thinking about what my system will hold now too... jerks.

1000cc/ 95.58 lbs Injectors = 650HP
so 95.58 lbs/ 1.58 = 60 liters each (4) injector per hour
x 4 = 240 liters per hour

Walbro 255 flows these numbers at these fuel pressures

60 psi the pump flows 360 lb/hr
70 psi the pump flows 332 lb/hr
80 psi the pump flows 285 lb/hr
100 psi the pump flows 160 lb/hr

enjoy...
-Drew

[slider2828]

What about fuel slosh? That is just as important as adquate PSI in your fuel system... What do you guys have for that?

[steve shadows]

i had my car's fuel system (s13 silvia) set up for 300hp but have since upgraded a lot of things and will be running between 450 and 500 whp on a red top sr20det with nismo 740 side feed injectors, sard fpr, and aftermarket side feed fuel rail.

first question is, whats the hp rating for a walbro 255?
im assuming that I will need to replace it with something that pumps a little more but am not sure. opinions on what i should be using?

ive read that i'll need to run -6an or -8an fuel lines from my tank to the engine bay. can someone explain these lines to me? are these professionally built lines that are crimped together similar to brake lines? or is it something that you just build yourself with a fuel line and ends that you clamp on yourself?

with the hp that im looking to run now, should i be looking into running some kind of fuel surge tank? or is that overkill?

The right fuel cell will eliminate the need for surge tank in most cases, I ran the dual walbro in tank on my 500 whp sr setup...stock tank never had any issues, even with 1/4 tank on hard cornering, like car at 45 degree angle to the horizon....

I like the external pump with Surge tank idea if you are dead set against a fuel tank...I was working on some various ideas using this fuel setup before I moved away from it and just ended up sticking to what I had...

500 whp is pretty easily supported by some basic hardware you would be surprised...

heading up over this range or wanting the option to have various octanes on hand a at the flip of the switch now that's badass...that was one Idea I was going to work up...two separate fuel cells, two separate fuel pump setups one with pump gas and one with c16, and a fuel surge tank to meet in the middle of them somewhere in the truck, then at the flip of a switch you turn one fuel cell off and the other kicks on letting you get the full c16 into the motor - then just hit boost setting B which was 30 psi :) instead of 18 psi on the GT3037 and fckin blast!

[Chamb-O]

http://aeromotiveinc.com/wp-content/uploads/wpsc/product_images/11140-42_Kit.jpg
http://aeromotiveinc.com/wp-content/uploads/wpsc/product_images/11140-42_FlowChart.jpg

check this out
Aeromotive | 11141 - 340 Stealth Fuel Pump (Offset Inlet) (http://aeromotiveinc.com/products-page/fuel-pumps/11141-340-stealth-fuel-pump-offset-inlet/)

they just came out

[steve shadows]

I was wondering when they would get around to something like that! for the lazy project car builder near you...well cost effective too...although fuel cell setups aren't that bad....

The other pump that we have used on several project cars I have consulted on is the Denso 295 LT/HR pump, much more reliable than the Walbro and provides plenty of fuel for 500 whp - but over that you will need a bit more umph

[Seraphim38]

steve shadows = da man

[UNITEDMASTER]

I would do a BOSCH-044 external,-6 feed & return to motor. Surge tank, fed by your current walbro.

I run this exact set up but a Holley red(low pres. pump) feeds my surge tank & I have a fuel cell

[RACETUNE]

I run 800cc Injectors, with Denso intake fuel pump and make over 550HP. Keep you setup simple and practical. From my experience Walbro is junk. I have seen way to many fail on the dyno when tuning.

[Kingtal0n]

twin in-tank pumps is the way to go for affordable/quiet (think low-cost street car while maintaining as much reliability as possible). You run a boost switch for one of them (on at Xpsi+) so only one pump is running during normal driving. You can wire a switch to go back and forth between them too, that way you can tell they are both working at any time. And the noise is reduced greatly, since they are in the tank.

For the most cost effective, quiet setup, you cannot easily beat a pair of $80 fuel pumps. If you are worried about failure you need a fuel pressure safety switch. Just make the hatch easy to lift, pump easy to change, and carry a spare if you are THAT concerned. I have friends that complain of being on the 3rd walbro, but I personally have never seen an authentic walbro fail from normal use. Perhaps people are not getting the real deal? There are plenty of cheap knock-offs available, just like turbo manifolds, or turbo timers.

Obviously, (or not?) If the application demands a serious fuel pump then you use one. If you are trailoring a consistent 7 second vehicle a pair of walbros or even 10 screw driver sized fuel pumps is not sufficient when compared to the necessity of the application. No silver plated jewelry on my solid silver statue kthx.

[canary-s14a]

Interesting options this last ones, and sorry for bump this thread for second time, but this way its a good thread to consult for new people here

what do you think about fuel lab pumps? they seems to be more "road" than aeromotive... so i supose they dont heat up so much the fuel?

Welcome to Fuelab! - Fuelab.com (http://fuelab.com/)

[sqd]

Now I'm bumping this a bit too - since I'm going to build a system that supports 500whp on E85.

Right now, I have a intank Walbro, and a 044 on the way. Going to run 1200cc injectors.

My main questions are:
- How large does the fuel feed line have to be? I'm thinking either AN -6 or -8. Steel braided lines. Same question for the return line.
- The new fuel rail has two feed holes, is it neccessary to run dual feed? What is the main benefit of doing it? What is the best way of setting up a dual feed, like one feed from the tank then a Y-block or something?
- I'm in no need of a catch tank, I'm not going to track my car since I live so damn far away from the nearest track anyway - so is a Walbro intank to an inline 044 good enough for my goal? Or should I run a 044 or a Aeromotive 340 intank to an inline 044?
- Inline fuel filters, can I replace my standard filter with 1 or 2 inline ones?

If anyone has any insight in this, please let me know. I need any info I can get, I want to do this right!

[Fullboost TM]

Why do you guys insist on recommending Walbro's! They are complete garbage! Get a Denso Fuel pump and volt mod it (Can reach upwards of 510LPH at 10PSI @ 14 Volts 7.7 Amps) and weights only 2 pounds. I guarantee it will out live your car and isn't that much more expensive than a Walbro, flows better and is dead silent unless you decide you want to spend some real money in which case get an Aeromotive Pump and fuel sump (Or Heck even a Stealth fuel cell) so you can bounce off the limiter with some real lateral G's and not have to worry about leaning out. Nylon/Neoprene lines all around to prevent the lines from ever bursting (As a side bonus they are chemically immune to Petrol!)

[240knockout]

I know thread is old...but would you happen to have part numbers for the fittings that you welded to the tophat?


Here is another option. Run two walbro's in the tank and join them with a y fitting. Then weld on some fitting to fuel tank cover and use -an fittings. For this setup the hardlines were changed to 3/8 instead of the stock 5/16 and swagelok fittings were use to adapt the braided -an line to the hardline
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p218/silviasr20driftkingalex/Joe1.jpg
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p218/silviasr20driftkingalex/Joe2.jpg
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p218/silviasr20driftkingalex/Joe3.jpg
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p218/silviasr20driftkingalex/Joe4.jpg