factory spoiler vs. aftermarket

[RacerTrue]

hello, i took off my stock OE wing from my 14 since prior research pretty much concludes that it has no aerodynamic effect. should i put it back ? does it have some other benefit, like providing some necessary weight maybe???? and what manufacturers make wings for the S14 that DIRECTLY bolt in the OE holes?? thanks!!

[Stee Flo]

put it back on, the s14 looks silly without a wing imo. The stock wing is a nice subtle wing. Hmm wonder if it will fit an s13 hatch:o

[Phlip]

Leave it off, I think my S14 is sexy without the wing and a lowered stance personally... I have had several chances to get the factory wing, and passed on all of them.

[misnomer]

It is purely a cosmetic item, as are ALL wings people put on street cars. Wings need to be big and tall to have much effect.

I personally like the subtle stock s14 spoiler, and have considered getting one to replace the foam on the back of my s13. Then again, it looks just as good with nothing.

[Brian]

i have no wing and i like it that way.
i saw a test in drift tengoku that compared 4 different wings on a s14. there were 2 different GT wings, a wangan style wing, and the stock spek k wing. of course the gt wings were the best, followed by the wangan wing, and last the K wing. even the K wing provided some downforce believe it or not.

[s13rookie]

wings are mostly cosmetic. dont buy one to reap the benefits of downforce at 215mph. if you like the look, get one, if not, leave it off. many wings on the market are so poorly desighned they actually create lift, not exactly helping your performance any. however brands like vielside, design much of there parts to be functional as well as eye candy, and thats why you pay through the a$$ for them.

i own a wing-less black s14, and if i got a good deal on a s14 spoiler in black, i would most likely be all over it. because i like the look

matt

[SilviaDriver]

Originally posted by RacerTrue
like providing some necessary weight maybe????

wat weight? that wing is light as hell!

Originally posted by Stee Flo
put it back on, the s14 looks silly without a wing imo.

blah u suck! wingless s14s rock!

Originally posted by PHLIP
Leave it off, I think my S14 is sexy without the wing and a lowered stance personally... I have had several chances to get the factory wing, and passed on all of them.

rock on!! wingless s14s rule!

Originally posted by yeswepromise
i have no wing and i like it that way.

yes..awsome!

Originally posted by s13rookie
i own a wing-less black s14, and if i got a good deal on a s14 spoiler in black, i would most likely be all over it. because i like the look

boooo.

:p

[s13rookie]

notice my post, id take a stock s14 spoiler for a good deal( like 20-40bucks) if it is black and matches my car. id like a little bit different look for my car, put im not going through having it painted,

so i guess i am happy with how my car looks.........for now
:D :D :D

[pruto]

Originally posted by s13rookie
wings are mostly cosmetic. dont buy one to reap the benefits of downforce at 215mph. if you like the look, get one, if not, leave it off. many wings on the market are so poorly desighned they actually create lift, not exactly helping your performance any. however brands like vielside, design much of there parts to be functional as well as eye candy, and thats why you pay through the a$$ for them.


wings work under 215mph, they're not mostly cosmetic (unless you go generic).

It is purely a cosmetic item, as are ALL wings people put on street cars. Wings need to be big and tall to have much effect.


got proof to back up that talk?

argh, there was a thread on car aerodynamics and wings a while back, grrr... i'm just going to stop trying. people like staying ignorant it seems.

[s13rookie]

i disagree, i say most people with non stock wings are generic brands i guess.

i was exagerating with the 215mph point, but i could not tell a differance driving a s14 with a wing at 100mph, and one with out a wing, ive done it before

[pruto]

Originally posted by s13rookie
i disagree, i say most people with non stock wings are generic brands i guess.

most people... maybe, but were talking about wings our fellow 240sx owner might want to consider, not pos universal wings. those are a different story. He was talking about either the OE wing or a recommendation, surely no one recommends a ****ty universal wing.

i was exagerating with the 215mph point, but i could not tell a differance driving a s14 with a wing at 100mph, and one with out a wing, ive done it before

i know you were exaggerating. I don't think downforce and aerodynamic drag is something you can really "tell" just by driving. It is a lot harder to tell appart than say, suspension mods. Its the same as if you drove a s14, and a car with a better aerodynamic profile (say, a G35), you wouldn't be able to tell by simple driving much difference with downforce and drag/lift. Car feel yes, but that could be anything from suspension geometry to creature comforts. Better aerodynamics just makes your car cut through the air more efficiently, increase gas mileage, and slightly better stability. And wings aren't all about downforce, they can increase (or decrease) your car's aero-profile, make it more streamline, divert airflow so its less turbulent, etc etc.

Also, wings have optimal ranges of opperation, where efficiency peaks at a certain speed while at other speeds it has minimal effect, you might have not been testing it at the right speed.

yes, there are wings that don't do anything, but unless i see some windtunnel results that says so, i won't believe you. You can't just slap an airfoil on a moving object and expect it not to do anything to that said object.

and to answer the original question posted by RaceTrue. the performance change by taking off your OE wing is probably minimal, something you won't feel. Gas mileage might drop a little, and it might be less stable at certain speeds. BUT you won't really notice the difference. i.e. if you don't want to put it back on, you don't have to put it back on. People usually throw factory recommendations out the window anyway. *sigh*

[SilviaDriver]

i think it was Aaron that posted up the pic of the test on 4 diff wings including the K's wing..might wanna ask him for the pic if u wanna post it..probably should of saved it. doh

[s13rookie]

okay, youre looking for wind tunnel tests to prove that generic wings do nothing right

im not trying to be an a$$ and i think youre on me with this, but the reason i wont be able to find an aero test on the newest APC wing. is probably because they never ran them in the wind tunnel

i agree, i could make a random shaped steel thingy, and weld it to my trunk. it will probably be a fully negative result
but also, it may put out some great downforce at some ranges of operation


basically, some wings are made for looks, few are made for function, and as for the ones made for function, most of us, 240 owners, have no need for them, though they may look good

[Johny5]

IMO the s14 has a real thin rear end, the s14 stocker wing kinda thickens it up. If you're gonna remove it, get a bigger/lower rear bumper, stock K's rear aero bumper with the valences maybe, then it would even it out to the point where you don't need that spoiler.

[sykikchimp]

Big wings on the back of most cars cause more drag than anything. Most production race cars that have large wings don't use the wing directly for downforce. They use them to change air flow characteristics. The angle of attack for a wing to cause usable downforce has to be rather steep. Most production cars will not benefit from the added downforce, b/c they don't have the power to push through the additional drag. ex. 100hp civic no wing has a top speed of 110mph.. (guess) Add big wing b/c you wanna create D/F for taking corners faster.. suddenly top speed is only 100mph, and the wing is completely useless below 50.. lap times fall. DOH.

USEFULL aero is about deflection, and reducing resistance. A properly designed wing will reduce turbulence, and lift. Creating downforce isn't usually their primary function. Unless your in a full on race car.

Smart aero would be a front Airdam, and a splitter possibly mixed with a rear diffuser. The STOCK wings on almost ALL production vehicles are DIFFUSERS. They are there to reduce lift, and drag, not create D/F.

[Stee Flo]

Originally posted by Johny5
IMO the s14 has a real thin rear end, the s14 stocker wing kinda thickens it up. If you're gonna remove it, get a bigger/lower rear bumper, stock K's rear aero bumper with the valences maybe, then it would even it out to the point where you don't need that spoiler.
I agree, unless you have some sort of aero package, a wingless s14 looks like its missing something in the rear. Wingless stock s14 doesnt look right to me, unless it has a bodykit. Then it looks nice.

[Jsquared]

goodness there are some ignorant twits shooting their mouth off in here...

It is purely a cosmetic item, as are ALL wings people put on street cars. Wings need to be big and tall to have much effect.
100% WRONG ever see the rear lip on the E46 BMW M3? the spoiler on a Winston-Cup car (P.S.: I hate NASCAR)? the pop-out wing element on the Porsche 996 turbo?

i was exagerating with the 215mph point, but i could not tell a differance driving a s14 with a wing at 100mph, and one with out a wing, ive done it before
did you have lap times to back up your "butt dyno"? :rolleyes:

Most production race cars that have large wings don't use the wing directly for downforce. They use them to change air flow characteristics. The angle of attack for a wing to cause usable downforce has to be rather steep.
wrong. depending on the cross-section of the wing, the AoA doesn't have to be that steep at all. and the reason they change airflow characteristics IS TO DECREASE LIFT, which increases stability.

USEFULL aero is about deflection, and reducing resistance. A properly designed wing will reduce turbulence, and lift. Creating downforce isn't usually their primary function. Unless your in a full on race car.

no, USEFUL aero is about reducing drag and reducing lift. PERIOD. very very few cars on the road actually get into the arena of "downforce," which is negative lift, but any car with a decently-designed aero package will have reduced lift at anything over 80mph.

Smart aero would be a front Airdam, and a splitter possibly mixed with a rear diffuser. The STOCK wings on almost ALL production vehicles are DIFFUSERS. They are there to reduce lift, and drag, not create D/F.
you're right on the first sentence. then your paragraph falls apart. A WING IS NOT A DIFFUSER. :rolleyes: A diffuser is a device with increasing cross-sectional area as you move towards the rear of the car, and spreads the flow out making a low-pressure zone; a wing separates the flow AND THEN REJOINS IT TOGETHER, creating different pressures on each side of the airfoil. two completely different mechanical devices. one more thing: REDUCING LIFT AND "CREATING DOWNFORCE" ARE THE SAME MECHANICAL PRINCIPLE, "creating downforce" merely means you have reduced lift to the point where it is negative. a Porsche 996 with the OEM Aerokit installed (looks like the older 996GT3) is producing meaningful lift reduction at 80mph, significant lift reduction at 120mph, and at about 160mph actually produces a pound or two of "downforce." it doesn't actually "make downforce" until 160mph or so but it does greatly increase the car's stability at much lower speeds.


short version: Shut your mouths. Don't make me get an Aerospace Engineer in here to school your asses...


EDIT: this does not mean go out and buy a gigantic APC piece of crap. Those will add a LOT more drag than lift reduction. Obviously when choosing aero parts go with a company that does quality work and has track-tested equipment, not just some F&F ricer company that churns out garbage...

[RacerTrue]

hmm, thats a lot of good info to know, though i wonder, why do a lot of japanese drifters use wings?? and would our cars benefit if we got the same wings?? and our s14's dont come with the JDM spec k wing, our wings is a lot lower. does the USDM OEM wing provide any benefits??

[Dousan_PG]

Originally posted by RacerTrue
hmm, thats a lot of good info to know, though i wonder, why do a lot of japanese drifters use wings??

ill field this one

because drifting is about LOOKS.
see the sig..drifting is all about rice.
its style and control.

[sykikchimp]

That was an excellent attempt at trying to make people look dumb. Unfortunately, I am not an "ignorant twit shooting my mouth off"

Let me correct you.

wrong. depending on the cross-section of the wing, the AoA doesn't have to be that steep at all. and the reason they change airflow characteristics IS TO DECREASE LIFT, which increases stability.

I said:
They use them to change air flow characteristics. The angle of attack for a wing to cause usable downforce has to be rather steep.

When I say "Usuable downforce" I am talking about actual downforce. not just decreased lift. I mean negative lift. As in the stuff the create multiple thousand pounds of downward force in race cars. That kind of force requires a steep aoa. the kind that simply change flow characteristics to reduce drag, and decrease lift obviously are not going to be steep.


Cars like F1, ALMS, etc, all have very steep aoa on their wings b/c they have huge amounts of hp to overcome the additional drag, and make use of the increase in downforce. Also this is why these cars often have thier wings attached directly to the frame, and NOT the body work. So they are literally pulled downward from the mounting points, and not pushed down from the bodywork.

If you haven't noticed yet, we were talking about the same thing.

no, USEFUL aero is about reducing drag and reducing lift. PERIOD. very very few cars on the road actually get into the arena of "downforce," which is negative lift, but any car with a decently-designed aero package will have reduced lift at anything over 80mph.

what did I say before:
USEFULL aero is about deflection, and reducing resistance. A properly designed wing will reduce turbulence, and lift. Creating downforce isn't usually their primary function. Unless your in a full on race car.
They are there to reduce lift, and drag,..

you mean to tell me that aero parts don't deflect air? Also, reducing resistance and turbulence is simply another way of saying reduced drag.

And I would argue that reduced lift is acheived well before 80mph on most cars with quality aero.


A WING IS NOT A DIFFUSER. A diffuser is a device with increasing cross-sectional area as you move towards the rear of the car, and spreads the flow out making a low-pressure zone; a wing separates the flow AND THEN REJOINS IT TOGETHER, creating different pressures on each side of the airfoil. two completely different mechanical devices. one more thing: REDUCING LIFT AND "CREATING DOWNFORCE" ARE THE SAME MECHANICAL PRINCIPLE, "creating downforce" merely means you have reduced lift to the point where it is negative.

ok.. I know what a diffuser is, and what a wing is. I said:
The STOCK wings on almost ALL production vehicles are DIFFUSERS

let me interpret for you. When I say the "Stock wings" I am talking about what almost all of these people will call wings. A "Wing" on a new car that sits a few inches above the tail of the car is generally not a wing at all. As the airflow over the car usually never has a chance to be seperated by it. They are there to change airflow characteristcs. I understand that reducing lift, and creating downforce are the same mechanical principal. I am using the two seperately b/c it's easier to understand. When I say. "It reduces lift" this means that lift has been reduced, but not to the point where you are achieving negative lift. If I say, "That wing makes "Downforce", it means, It's creating negative lift. Not that hard is it?

In the future, chill out, and think for a second what you are trying to say. Make it make sense. And make sure you are making a point. Because everything you said was "wrong." from me was not wrong. It was simply worded differently than you thought it should be.

Ok, now lets hear from the aerospace engineer about aerodynamics. It would be refreshing to hear from someone who actually knows what they are talking about, And is not just trying to boost their own immature ego.

[Stee Flo]

Originally posted by dousan36
ill field this one

because drifting is about LOOKS.
http://www.otakurevolution.net/otakurevolution/stupid.gif :D

[nrcooled]

Originally posted by RacerTrue
hmm, thats a lot of good info to know, though i wonder, why do a lot of japanese drifters use wings?? and would our cars benefit if we got the same wings?? and our s14's dont come with the JDM spec k wing, our wings is a lot lower. does the USDM OEM wing provide any benefits??

Drifting is "rice". It is all about a driver's ability to look good while driving and points are giving for the car's looks. Hence the wing. Not saying that it doesn't take tons of skill and track time but it has nothing to do w/ aerodynamics

[transient]

Ok, enough with all the semantics here. You guys are both saying the same stuff. Anyway, Jsquared, if you know of an aerospace engineer who would be willing to give us some information on aerodynamics, I would really love to see it. It might help put an end to all of these fights over whether wings are all "rice" or not.

[misnomer]

Hey man, I never said I didn't like wings and spoilers. They usually round out the look of the car. Perhaps I overgeneralized before; but aside from your very high performance cars, where do you see cars in which there is a difference in handling between a spoiled and non-spoiled rear end? :P

I'm not saying aero equipment can't change the handling characteristics of your car,there are plenty of things that do effect it. It's simply my observation that the vast majority are for looks, not performance. Nothing wrong with that, I really wouldn't like the look of my car without a spoiler of sorts back there :-)

<EDIT> Y'know. . .nobody answered the original question on wings that fit the factory holes. . . Hey!! maybe while you have the wing off you could do me a favor and measure the distance between the holes (side to side and front to back)

[Jsquared]

When I say "Usuable downforce" I am talking about actual downforce. not just decreased lift. I mean negative lift. As in the stuff the create multiple thousand pounds of downward force in race cars. That kind of force requires a steep aoa. the kind that simply change flow characteristics to reduce drag, and decrease lift obviously are not going to be steep.


Cars like F1, ALMS, etc, all have very steep aoa on their wings b/c they have huge amounts of hp to overcome the additional drag, and make use of the increase in downforce.
Nope. In fact, most ALMS cars have very shallow AoA (less than 30 degrees), with a very short chord and very large widths. Less drag. Ever been in the paddock at an ALMS race and seen those things up close? F1 and CART are usually the only places you see steep AoA, and those are on extremely curved airfoils, not mostly-flat ones.

you mean to tell me that aero parts don't deflect air?
simply deflecting air causes increased drag and turbulence. see: NASCAR. there is a difference between smoothly redirecting and deflecting.

And I would argue that reduced lift is acheived well before 80mph on most cars with quality aero.
speeds below 60mph are generally too slow to cause noticeable aerodynamic effect, even with something like a Champ Car or F1 car.

Ok, now lets hear from the aerospace engineer about aerodynamics. It would be refreshing to hear from someone who actually knows what they are talking about, And is not just trying to boost their own immature ego.
I probably shouldn't have said this, since it's summer now. However, I'll see what I can do. Our department (Mechanical Engineering) shares a building with the Aerospace Department, and there's about as many MAEs as there are MEs (about 990 each). I'll see if I can find one that's still in Raleigh.

When I say the "Stock wings" I am talking about what almost all of these people will call wings. A "Wing" on a new car that sits a few inches above the tail of the car is generally not a wing at all. As the airflow over the car usually never has a chance to be seperated by it.
no, it is still not a diffuser, just a very ineffective wing. being in the boundary layer does not change what the object is.

It might help put an end to all of these fights over whether wings are all "rice" or not.
well as far as that goes you have to go by the design of the individual wing, and the car it's attached to...

[Kenta]

so from what ppl have mentioned on this post, i doubt that the USDM s14 SE wing does anything then, am i right?

[scandalcat1]

Purely for looks, aerodynamic value is very low. Cosmetic more like it.

[NiteKids]

Holyo Gaspo! Even I-oh NiteKidsOh lacks any spoiler/Wing now. Wingless...-Oh

[Jsquared]

o?

it is true than many OEM wings are just for looks, but on more-sporting cars many of these are somewhat functional (e.g. BMW 3-serieses, ITR, Acura RSX, S14 K's, M3 rear lip, Porsche Boxster, Porsche 911, etc) at adding stability

[robinlow88]

I have a huge wing, which is adjustable. And I can feel the difference in downforce when changing the angles of the wing.

Generally, on highways at speeds around 55mph, the effect of the wing can be much felt.

I had a Cwest cf wing, and its great and lightweight but still provided extra stability for the car.

For those of you who only drive in the city, then forget about getting the wing.

[Jsquared]

the only thing you're feeling at 55mph is drag :rolleyes:

were you cornering at 110 to "feel" the effects of the "downforce"? comparing lap times? be quiet.

[KiDyNomiTe]

Originally posted by robinlow88
I have a huge wing, which is adjustable. And I can feel the difference in downforce when changing the angles of the wing.

Generally, on highways at speeds around 55mph, the effect of the wing can be much felt.

I had a Cwest cf wing, and its great and lightweight but still provided extra stability for the car.

For those of you who only drive in the city, then forget about getting the wing.

haha oh man, its all in your head, usually when people change something they automatically think thier car is faster/slower (depending on what they did), its usually in the head :rolleyes:

Go and watch this Option vid where they did tests with a couple of cars that had adjustable spoilers (like skylines and FDs and such)

The differences in top speeds were very small ~3mph IIRC. Most aerodynamics don't take effect till high speeds, 55 is not high speed, thats the speed limit. A kit/car with horrible airflow might benefit, but most stock cars have good airflow.

Your car with a wing and my car with my foam warped spoiler would react nearly identical (minus the wear to the cars).

Wieght of the driver would prolly make a bigger diff, so stop eating those burgers and go eat some tofu :p

[silviaparts.com]

Originally posted by KiDyNomiTe
haha oh man, its all in your head, usually when people change something they automatically think thier car is faster/slower (depending on what they did), its usually in the head :rolleyes:



Yeah, I always feel like my car is faster when I fill up my tank and drive out of the gas station. It's all in your head.

[s13rookie]

my point is this:

most of us dont have any lap times to back up any mods we have any done, i for one dont have reasonable access to a race track, nor if it was near, money to rent it.

many of the mods we do are nothing more that pyschological. they mad add a few hp here or there, but who knows for sure. but thinking youre car is fast is a big thing. you have to have confidence in your car

take 2 cars to the track. have one stock, the other with a roll bar and a helmet. i would put money on the car with the helmet coming out on top 9 out of 10 times. WHY, because they have the confidence to push the car a little farther.

wings, take them as you will
are they fucnctional, not a simple yes or no
do they look good? thats a matter of opinion, do what you want, its your car

[RacerTrue]

hehe i agree that after a mod is done i try to make attempts at "feeling" if it is faster. but since i try not to let it get to my "head" i usually try and be as precise as possible, i really do notice better throttle response, acelleration.
and i totally agree about wings being opinionated when it comes too look vs. function since we can''t just etst our car's aerodynamics.

but does anyone know if nissan actaully tested the USDM s14 wing??

and does anyone know what aero part manufacturers ACTAULLY TEST THEIR wings on the specific car?? cuz right now i feel like getting a copy of the JDM spec K wing since someone mentioned here that it was tested and provides some usuable aerodynamics.


and i am curious, do they sell the wings (non-adjustable) that are used by racers in japan ? (i.e. JGTC) cuz then you could jsut buy their fixed wing/spoiler for your car that they used and it would give u the same benefits right?

[Jsquared]

^yes, some companies sell their JGTC wings (and yes they ARE adjustable), usually in CF and costing well over a grand each...

[sykikchimp]

I read that cwest wind tunnel tests all their aero products, and make sure that they add increased stability.

I'm sure there are several other aero manufacturers that do as well, but I have no idea. I would think that most all auto manufacturers own wind tunnels to test different designs with. I know for sure Nissan does, and they have always published CD numbers, and usually have reduced drag/lift claims as well. For example, the new 350z with the "Zero lift" aero package that includes the front air dam, and rear diffuser as well as an underbody carraige.

[KiDyNomiTe]

Originally posted by RacerTrue

and does anyone know what aero part manufacturers ACTAULLY TEST THEIR wings on the specific car?? cuz right now i feel like getting a copy of the JDM spec K wing since someone mentioned here that it was tested and provides some usuable aerodynamics.


I would think that every car company does to some extent. Just some companies take it a little further with certain cars. Cars like Skylines, RX7s, M3s etc...

Cars like the new M3 CSL are really worked on, I read somewhere that they reduced liek 12 second (I might be off on the time) at some german track (starts with an N i think), only increased HP by like 20, just a lot of wieght loss, and some diffusers, and the obvious suspension work.