Solid Subframe Bushing Help

[ixfxi]

What a pain in the ass this is... I've got some eccentric tougefactory solid bushings that I'm pressing in, and I'm completely at a blank trying to determine which side the bushings install.

Take a look at this link, they use a different two piece bushing which has a flange on the top and a flange on the bottom.
Driftopia Tech Blog » Blog Archive » 240sx S13 Solid Aluminum Subframe Bushing Install (http://www.driftopia.com/2008/02/27/240sx-s13-solid-aluminum-subframe-bushing-install/)

The Touge Factory eccentric bushing I am using is just one big fucking solid aluminum piece with a flange on one side.

So, first I attempted to install it from the top going down. Then I was like wait wait, what am i doing. Assuming I am right, the flange is supposed to secure the bottom of the subframe by pressing it onto the chassis. So then I pressed it in from the bottom to the top, with the flange on the bottom.

Am I smoking crack? Which way does this fucking bushing go. I'm pulling my hair out here like a fuckin iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiidiot

[singlecamslam]

The flange should be on the bottom. And i dont know what yours look like but mines were a two piece design.

Link to the product you bought? I'm having a hard time picturing.

[ixfxi]

Pic of S13.4.5 offset bushings:
http://www.clearcorners.com/temp/s15bushing1.jpg

Pic installed:
http://www.clearcorners.com/temp/s15bushing2.jpg

I have a deep feeling that I've done this backwards. Touge Factory never included any instructions, fine.. no biggie. I called them up and asked just to double check, and I could've sworn the guy said to install them bottom up, so that the solid bushing presses against the subframe and compresses it onto the chassis.

He also mentioned it helping suspension geometry (bump steer), which when I think about it.. much like installing tie rod end spacers, you want to make the LCA level with the crossmember or in this case, the subframe. So when I was thinking it out, on a lowered car you want to raise the subframe so that the arm is more level. Otherwise, if I had the flange on the top, it would space the subframe down which goes against the whole concept.

Also, if I installed the flange top-side, what would secure the bottom end of the bushing/subframe? I have the OE subframe brackets but they wouldnt fit as snug now that the frame has been fitted with solid bushing. The OE bracket design is cupped (dished) so that it fits into the bushing.

I dunno, shit isnt making sense. Please chime in.. I need help.

[johngriff]

Pic of S13.4.5 offset bushings:


I have a deep feeling that I've done this backwards. Touge Factory never included any instructions, fine.. no biggie. I called them up and asked just to double check, and I could've sworn the guy said to install them bottom up, so that the solid bushing presses against the subframe and compresses it onto the chassis.

He also mentioned it helping suspension geometry (bump steer), which when I think about it.. much like installing tie rod end spacers, you want to make the LCA level with the crossmember or in this case, the subframe. So when I was thinking it out, on a lowered car you want to raise the subframe so that the arm is more level. Otherwise, if I had the flange on the top, it would space the subframe down which goes against the whole concept.

Also, if I installed the flange top-side, what would secure the bottom end of the bushing/subframe? I have the OE subframe brackets but they wouldnt fit as snug now that the frame has been fitted with solid bushing. The OE bracket design is cupped (dished) so that it fits into the bushing.

I dunno, shit isnt making sense. Please chime in.. I need help.

Wow, and you slammed my Subframe bars...
http://zilvia.net/f/chat/259005-filling-subframe-bushings-poly-2.html#post2837038

and

http://zilvia.net/f/chat/259005-filling-subframe-bushings-poly-2.html#post2838800

But really mike, you don't know tits from dicks about that subframe.

Some people don't use the bracket that hooks into my bar after they install that style solid bushings.

Yes, spacers on the bottom, duh you don't want to 4x4 the subframe away from the body.

SPL's new bushings have shims with their kit to adjust, and can use the lower bracket too, you know, just incase you would want to reduce all the new wheel hop your are introducing, by changing to sold bushings.

SPL PARTS (http://www.splparts.com/main4/index.htm)

Dick. :mephfawk:

[ixfxi]

Okay, I will eat my words then. Its useful on a car that has stock/old subframe bushings

Guys with stock suspension, go and buy this product immediately:
http://www.rpsport.net/img/zilvia_ad_617/zilvia_ad1.png
Product Link: http://www.rpsport.net/product/

Thanks Richard/Dick..................? :-)
Mike




(Its still a flat piece of steel with 2 holes though)

[johngriff]

Hahaha, I had to jump on you, that shit stung before :kiss:

[ixfxi]

Hahaha, I had to jump on you, that shit stung before :kiss:

All good, I'm the first one to call myself an idiot even though I'm always trying to set folks straight - but we all run into situations where we need a moment of clarity.

Thanks for the help, hopefully I can get this fucking subframe installed tongiht. I've already got the gas tank in and I'm tired of having things sitting around the garage. This car has been sitting for near 5 years, enough is enough. Time for this bitch to start rolling.

-m

[projectRDM]

Mike, I've never seen one with only one flange, but I'd say it has to go below, otherwise you'd a need big ass washer on the bottom so the subframe wouldn't fall off.

But, do the spacers fit flush to the tops of the mounting studs? If not, the gap created has to be filled with something.

[ixfxi]

Mike, I've never seen one with only one flange, but I'd say it has to go below, otherwise you'd a need big ass washer on the bottom so the subframe wouldn't fall off.

But, do the spacers fit flush to the tops of the mounting studs? If not, the gap created has to be filled with something.

This is where all the confusion started, because I was thinking about the things you just said.

First, the OE bushings press in from the top down and have a small flange that is also isolated it (the bushing from the chassis) with rubber.

Second, the bare subframe (with the bushing shells removed) has an open taper from the top, and the bottom has a closed taper. This makes it even more confusing because why would you install a bushing through a closed bottom taper?

In retrospect, if I can offer any pointers I would suggest:
1) Companies should make the bushings ~65mm in diameter (these were 66mm)
2) After removing the bushing shells, file down and eliminate the bottom taper of the subframe.

What a pain in the ass this shit is.

[upsdude]

i am guessing that you were supposed retain the old sleeves that came off the old bushings. these look like they install the same way the energy bushings install-you keep the oe "cups" but insert your new aluminum inside of them then have em pressed in to the subframe.
http://www.energysuspension.com/assets/files/pdf/17486.PDF

i bought these bushings but didn't know about retaining the sleeves, so i couldn't use em and had to switch to solid aluminum. like i said i could be totally wrong but judging from your pictures you're in the same situation i was in.

[FRpilot]

looking at the pictures of spl's solid bushings, they seem to have a smaller flare and comes with the "adaptor rings" compared to the TF s14/s15 to s13 solid bushings you have.

http://www.splparts.com/main4/parts/NissanShared/Suspension/Subframe/SPLSSBS13_3.jpg

if you look at the instructions (at SPL Parts (http://www.splparts.com/doc/SPLSSBS13V2/index.htm) ) for spl's v2 solid subframe bushings:

http://www.splparts.com/doc/SPLSSBS13V2/diagram.jpg

it shows that the solid bushing goes in with the flare on bottom (you put the shim spacers on top or bottom of the solid bushings w/ the adaptor ring on bottom; irrevelant since you don't have these shim spacers) and then you reuse the stock "cup" washer and bolt the subframe back up.

the ES bushings (in the instructions link provided above, http://www.energysuspension.com/asse.../pdf/17486.PDF)
looks like they are two piece bushings though (like the SPL v1 solid bushings), with a flare on top and bottom. when installed with the bigger flare on top, it spaces the subframe and chasis and the small flare provides the "groove" for the stock "cup" washer to seat in.

regarding the TF s14/s15 to s13 solid bushings, am i missing something?? the flare is huge compared to the spl's and the way you currently have it installed (flare on bottom) looks like it leaves a lot of space remaining between the subframe and chasis and needs some washers or spacers to reach between bushing and chasis to even bolt it up since the TF bushings look to be too short.

i'm inclined to say the TF bushings need to be installed with the flare on top to space the subframe to chasis because of the big flare for spacing and they are not tall enough when installed with flare on bottom. but then the subframe will fall off b/c theres no flare to support it on the bottom. wtf! then you MUST installed with the flare on bottom. maybe you can get some "adaptor rings" made or have spl sell you just the adapter rings to use the stock "cup" washers. (also get some spacers made since the TF bushings look too short installed with flare on bottom.)


http://www.splparts.com/main4/header/product/IMG_0765.jpg

looking at the picture above of spl's v1 solid bushings leads me to believe the TF bushing design is incomplete, or the set you purchased is missing a "2nd piece with flare" like the ES bushings. why would it only have 1 piece w/ 1 flare?

also, if you install w/ flare on bottom, how are you suppose to put your stock cup washers back (assuming you got the top spaced between the subframe/chasis issue resolved). maybe you don't reuse them and just bolt the nut to solid busing bottom? yes, you can put the stock washer back on, but why not just use a flat washer instead of the stock "cup" washer. i think the TF bushings need the "adaptor" ring or something similar so the stock washer could seat back in.

I COULD BE WRONG IN ALL THIS, since the spl v2 solids install with the flare on bottom and you DO NOT have to use the shims, but i assume the SPL bushings are taller so you make contact or the bolt sticking out of the chasis has a flare itself around it (been a while since i dropped a subframe and looked at it) so you can push up the solid bushing against it when there is no flare on top. but your TF bushings just look way too short on top w/ the flare on bottom.

btw, does tougefactory still sell these s14/15 to s13 subframe off center solid bushings? i haven't seen it on their site in months.

[ixfxi]

FRpilot, you're the first person to actually understand and address all the points that i made.

Well, its been a long fucking day.. I will proudly say that this is a *snip* of a job. I've always hated torching bushings, but subframe bushings, let alone eccentric subframe bushings are an absolute *snip* of a days work. I mean if you think these offset bushings are just gonna press themselves in, let alone mount on the car "just like that" - you gotta be kidding.

Anyway, job is done. I took some pics which I can post tomorrow. With the mounts installed bottom-UP everything lined up fairly well. Mind you, I did the entire job ALONE.. which again, adds to the *snip*-factor of todays work. I first notched the subframe into place, then used 2 jacks to raise the left and right sides of the subframe. The car would want to lift off the jackstands as there is not much weight in my chassis (no gas, fairly stripped).. but eventually I managed to get the studs to protrude down through bushings. I simply started to torque down the nuts and the subframe compressed just fine. No creaks, no interference, and no sledge hammer(s) needed.. which I am very thankful for.

While Russ made a point that the subframe doesnt have a rubber isolator from the body, I dont think its needed. Since everything is solid, the subframe (like the front crossmember) is now part of the car. I re-coated the bottom of the car with undercoating spray so I think that will be a good enough insulator. I guess if you want to take an extra precaution, you can use a rubber pad like the type used on the gas tank.

Only thing that gets close to touching the body (and maybe does touch a bit) would be the hump for the differential. Again, nothing that bothered me.. and I'm a picky fuck. As for the cup washers and support braces, thats all ancient history. I cant see them doing ANYTHING now that the subframe has a 0 percent chance of moving.

TF didnt list this on their website but they knew about it when I called them months ago and had no problem selling me a set. If I could do things over again, I would most likely have my welder weld thick offset plates onto the subframe, as opposed to wasting time with these chunks of aluminum. There are many ways to skin a cat, this was just a very annoying, 240 dollar way of getting it done. What can you do, I'm just glad that its ALL over.

[upsdude]

the things we'll do for our 15 year old cars lol

[tougefactory]

Mike,

You installed it correctly. Flare side goes on the bottom. Our bushings raise up the subframe, compared to stock.

On a side note, I can guarantee that the amount of measuring to get the offset right to make the conversion work properly would be more of a hassle than just purchasing our bushings.

We still do have these conversion bushings instock.

Thanks

[ixfxi]

Pics as promised:

Subframe:
http://clearcorners.com/temp/s15subframe02.jpg

Installed:
http://clearcorners.com/temp/s15subframe03.jpg

Undercarriage:
http://clearcorners.com/temp/s15subframe04.jpg

[johngriff]

Looks good mike. Hold onto the lower mounts, and I will send you some of our braces. Then you can before and after for yourself ;)