Are SR HLAs exchangable among themselves?

[jspaeth]

SHORT story:

With stock SR head, stock rocker arms, shims, and guides, can I exchange the locations of the HLA's with each other?

My guess is yes, because stock shims and guides are most likely the same on all valves, so their should be no difference.....(?)

Is it okay if I mixed the HLAs all together, and just put them back wherever?



LONG story:

Hi..here's the deal.

I pulled my whole head, took apart the valvetrain, head is completely bare.

Now, all along the way, I was COMPLETELY miticulous (sp?) and ALMOST everything is labeled and in separate baggys.

I.E......Rocker arms, shims, guides in separate, labeled baggies (grouped by location).........valves, springs, springs seats, retainers, and keepers in separate, labeled baggies (also grouped by valve).

The only thing I didn't label (I couldn't think of a good way to do it).......was the HLAs......I am not gonna be working on the car for awhile and couldn't think of a way to keep them upright.

So, I kept the intake ones in one container (filled with oil) and the exhaust in another one (also filled with oil).

Is this going to be okay? Does it really matter if HLA Intake-1 goes back into Intake-1? Or will it be okay if I just put them back wherever?

My thinking is that if they are different, it can only be by fractions of fractions of a millimeter, and there will always be a tiny bit of air in there inevitably, enough to squash the said fractions of a millimeter difference.



Help? Opinions? Am I worrying too much?

[s13silvia123]

they should go in order cause each of the shims are different measurement and yes they are by fractions of mm

[jspaeth]

I understand what you are trying to say, but from the factory, wouldn't all the shims have been the same?

Fuck.

[s13silvia123]

by putting the wrong shims in the wrong places causes the cams to go bad. and no the shims are not the same sizes.

[jspaeth]

I suck so bad.


I kept all the shims, guides, and rockers in order, as well as EVERYTHING ELSE,

but I fucking brain farted on the HLAs and just put them right in oil, bc I was thinking about air getting in


Any suggestions?

Shouldn't all of the HLA's be identical height when they are filled with oil?


In other words, is mixing up the HLAs not as bad as mixing up the shims?

Or am I toast and need to reshim everything.....

[s13silvia123]

the only thing i can for is get a tool to measure the shims so they can go in the right places. as for the HLAs maybe me as well.

[jspaeth]

the only thing i can for is get a tool to measure the shims so they can go in the right places. as for the HLAs maybe me as well.


I think maybe you are not getting what I am saying, but maybe I just wasn't clear.


I have the right shims and guides in baggies labeled, per valve.

Only the HLAs are all mixed together.....

So basically, this guarantees that my rocker arms will sit flat, bc I have the right shims/guides on the right valves.


Now the question is, are the HLA's gonna be different heights? I could measure them always I guess.

[s13silvia123]

i know what you are saying. and my bad for mixing a small little thing up. and yes you should measure them just in case.

[jspaeth]

i know what you are saying. and my bad for mixing a small little thing up. and yes you should measure them just in case.


Don't apologize, I really appreciate your help, honestly! So much gets lost in typing, like tone of voice......

I am hoping that what I did is not a big deal.....I do understand how shims and guides work, and know that mixing these is a NO-NO, because then the rocker arm won't sit flat.


I am just PRAYING that what I have done won't cause one rocker arm to sit higher than the next.....but if it does, does that matter much?

Do the cam lobes even touch the rocker arms when they are not pushing the valves down (i.e. when the LOBE part faces away from the rocker arm?)

-If not, then no big deal, bc the journals carry all the load, and the only consequence of a rocker sitting slightly high (but FLAT) is that the valve will open a tiny bit more/less

- If yes (THIS IS WHAT I AM WORRIED ABOUT), it could lead to uneven pressure on the cam :/

[fliprayzin240sx]

I wouldnt even trip about the lifters...thats the whole point of the lifter design...they are hydraulic so they are self adjusting.

I know your changing your springs, retainers and cams...are you changing the valves too? If you're doing all that, Id change the shims too, might as well have a fresh set in there. Youre gonna have to measure those to make sure you got the right size/thickness.

[Sileighty_85]

I wouldnt even trip about the lifters...thats the whole point of the lifter design...they are hydraulic so they are self adjusting.

Exactly the HLA move up and down like Flip said they are self adjusting.
Make sure they are bled and slap them in.
dont worry

[jspaeth]

Using the same valves, so that's a plus.


Thank you SOOO Much guys for helping my heart rate to come down haha. I am trying to do this within a fixed time, and I know measuring and ordering shims is an iterative and time consuming process.


....what you guys said about them adjusting is exactly what I was thinking.


Let's "mimic" the idea of the HLA's being slightly different heights by putting a TINY bit of air in each one....effectively causing them to be the "wrong height"


...what does this do?....last time I checked, a little air in the lifters makes some extra noise, but doesn't necessarily lead to catastrophe....errrr let's hope.


So, this is really a lame question, but DO the cams actually touch the rocker arms when the "lobe" faces away?

If not, then I am especially happy right now.

[jspaeth]

Exactly the HLA move up and down like Flip said they are self adjusting.
Make sure they are bled and slap them in.
dont worry


Exactly! I was so fixated on not letting them get air in them, that I immediately just put them in a plastic jar submerged in oil without labeling.

[Sileighty_85]

Using the same valves, so that's a plus.

Thank you SOOO Much guys for helping my heart rate to come down haha. I am trying to do this within a fixed time, and I know measuring and ordering shims is an iterative and time consuming process.

....what you guys said about them adjusting is exactly what I was thinking.

Let's "mimic" the idea of the HLA's being slightly different heights by putting a TINY bit of air in each one....effectively causing them to be the "wrong height"

...what does this do?....last time I checked, a little air in the lifters makes some extra noise, but doesn't necessarily lead to catastrophe....errrr let's hope.

So, this is really a lame question, but DO the cams actually touch the rocker arms when the "lobe" faces away?

If not, then I am especially happy right now.


When there is air in the HLA they dont make contact with the Cam lobes so the cam "Slaps" the Rocker arm making the ticking noise.

but yes the Rocker arms rides along the profile of the cam to keep the noise down.

Exactly! I was so fixated on not letting them get air in them, that I immediately just put them in a plastic jar submerged in oil without labeling.

But just incase keep it submerged in oil and unbend a paper clip and poke the hole on top of the HLA to make sure there is no air inside
If your still unsure check the FSM it shows you how

[fliprayzin240sx]

Personally, if you're gonna go thru all that head work, I know you said you're changing the valve guides...I say upgrade the valves now too. My recommendation (which were recommended to me by Entalphy) are supertech valves. They are bench flowed against alot of valves and beat almost everything out in the market.

[jspaeth]

Personally, if you're gonna go thru all that head work, I know you said you're changing the valve guides...I say upgrade the valves now too. My recommendation (which were recommended to me by Entalphy) are supertech valves. They are bench flowed against alot of valves and beat almost everything out in the market.

Thanks for the suggestion Ray.

When I started this project, there were some things I just couldn't afford to do, so new valves, valve guides, shims/guides, and a new valve job were not included :/

Btw I decided not to replace the valve guides......all mentions to guides above I meant the rocker arm guides. Apparently valve guides need to pressed out by a shop (I don't own any really crazy tools)


Thanks for the help^.....I have the FSM and am aware of how to bleed the HLAs...I just wanted to avoid having to do that, as that's just one more thing that could go wrong haha

[jspaeth]

Okay, I could not stop thinking about this all day.


New Idea:

I could have sworn that I read that all of the rocker arm GUIDES are the same....I.E. you only buy different sized shims, but the guides are left as is.

If this is the case, this implies that only the relative height of shim and guide are important, but not the absolute height of either (obviously they have to be CLOSE to the right height)

....otherwise you would be adjust both shim AND guide.

Based on this, I conclude that interchanging HLAs is not a big deal (i.e. small variances in the overall height that the Rocker Arm sits at is not crucial, as long as the shim and guide are right relative to one another, which is what makes the rocker arm sit flat relative to the cam lobe.)


I am crazy....I wish I could relax about this.

[clark]

Okay, I could not stop thinking about this all day.


New Idea:

I could have sworn that I read that all of the rocker arm GUIDES are the same....I.E. you only buy different sized shims, but the guides are left as is.

If this is the case, this implies that only the relative height of shim and guide are important, but not the absolute height of either (obviously they have to be CLOSE to the right height)

....otherwise you would be adjust both shim AND guide.

Based on this, I conclude that interchanging HLAs is not a big deal (i.e. small variances in the overall height that the Rocker Arm sits at is not crucial, as long as the shim and guide are right relative to one another, which is what makes the rocker arm sit flat relative to the cam lobe.)


I am crazy....I wish I could relax about this.

think about it...if you buy HLAs from somehwere, there is only one you can buy. there isn't a special size you buy. you buy a set of 8, no special measurements :coold:

lol jspaeth...i like reading all of your threads. you've always got some type of ridiculous problem, but then in the end it all works out..your blood pressure must be off the charts....you also seem like you have ADD. no offense, i have ADD also.

[jspaeth]

think about it...if you buy HLAs from somehwere, there is only one you can buy. there isn't a special size you buy. you buy a set of 8, no special measurements :coold:

lol jspaeth...i like reading all of your threads. you've always got some type of ridiculous problem, but then in the end it all works out..your blood pressure must be off the charts....you also seem like you have ADD. no offense, i have ADD also.


Hahhaa....yeah, I just am a deep thinker, and chemical engineer PhD student, so by default, I analyze the nuts out of everything.


I agree though, you buy just one, no difference.....but over time, they wear differently (?) maybe.....okay I am being paranoid hahahah

I'll let you know how it goes guys, I am scared shitless to do this headgasket....valvetrain okay, but headgasket just scares me :cry:

[Sileighty_85]

HAHA clarks right,

Your worring too much lol, One of my freinds was having his head milled and left all the HLA's and rocker arms and shims in the head when he brought it to the Machine shop......well the machine shop just dumped EVERYTHING into one bag and handed it back to him

We just slapped everything back together, No problems been driving it for over a year like that at drift events and high RPM's still holding strong