Clutch wont disengage.. Long read.

[rican_nick]

PLEASE read my initial post before replying and please understand that I am no noob to working cars specifically the S Chassis.. i have been doingt his for years and have searched/read quite a few threads on Zilvia and other forums regarding this issue.. many didnt have resolutions.. the ones that did do not apply to me from the troubleshooting i've done so far.

Background: I have been running a Spec stage 2 for a few years.. it started slipping after my turbo upgrade. After reading quite a bit on here I decided to go with an Exedy Stage 2 (thick).

Problem: Clutch is NOT disengaging.
Car off I am able to shift through gears.
Car on I am NOT able to shift out of neutral.
Car on, in first, clutch pressed ALL the way in.. the car wants to jump forward.

So yes.. its definitely not disengaging.

The clutch was installed following all of the torque specs and cross patterns found in the manual. I also replaced the Pilot bushing with a nismo needle bearing, resurfaced the JUN flywheel, replaced the pivot ball with a nismo unit, new TOB included with exedy clutch kit and greased all grease points. Before fiting the transmission I confirmed that the disc was lined up properly both by visually lookin at it and with the alignment tool included with the kit. I also made sure that all the fingers on the pressure plate were even with each other which told me everything was good to go to put the transmission on. I bolted the transmission up with no problem.. seemed to slip right into the disc and pilot bearing.

So.. this is where I am at now.

Troubleshooting that I have done already .. Please read this before trying to help.

Hydrolics:

-Re-bled Slave
-Clutch damper was already removed as its the first mod i do on all my 240's. --Master and Slave have less than 5k miles on them, and keep in mind I have been driving the car for months with the same exact WORKING hydrolics.
-Adjusted the peddle ALL the way out to get the longest possible slave movement.
-I took an old push rod and made a new rod for the slave cylinder that was 1/4" longer to get some additional disengagement.

After adjusting all of this, it did not make any difference to the problems above. I popped the boot off the clutch fork to make sure that the TOB was indeed disengaging the Pressure Plate.. from what I could tell it was definitely pushing on the fingers and acting just as one would expect.

So.. I dropped the transmission again hopping that whatever was causing my problem would just bitch slap me in the face.. well it didnt.. everything looked exactly as I would of expected hence me posting this long ass thread.

I uninstalled the clutch/flywheel to look for any signs of something weird hapening.. best that i could tell the clutch disk didnt even spin within the PP/Flywheel as there were absolutley no marking on flywheel/pp/disc showing that it rubbed against each other. So it looks like it never disengaged or slipped at all. I could also see signs of wear on the fingers where the TOB was trying to disengage the clutch.. no scoring or anything just slight rub marks.

I then thought the Pressure Plate may have been defecteve from the factory. All of the straps and rivets look fine along with fingers. To test the pressure plate i put it on a press after bolting it to a spare flywheel that i had. I used the press along with and Old TOB set up that i had to "disengage".. i didnt have to move the fingers much to be able to slip the clutch disc in and out of the pressure plate with no problem from differnet angles.

I have measured the pucks on the clutch disc all are 8mm thick. The flywheel runout is well within spec.

Sorry for the long post.. I am just out of ideas and sitting here thinking what the hell am I overlooking? I am going to put everything back together this weekend and see what happens.. then maybe light it on fire.

Any help wold be much appreciated.

[g6civcx]

You ran out of all the easy options.

Did you check the pedal assembly? Sometimes the clutch bracket snaps and won't push the master cylinder rod correctly.

How about checking the clutch line for leak?

I'm pretty much out of easy things to check for.

[rican_nick]

No leaks in the line. The Hydrolics appear to be working fine.. peddle feel and slave movement looks good.

I plan to check the peddle..a good friend mentioned bushing issues on certain Toyota's cause peddle through to not be 100%.

[rican_nick]

Thanks for the reply btw.

[jspaeth]

If you can physically see the slave moving the distance that it is supposed to, then that eliminates any pedal/hydraulic issues, leaving only the clutch fork, throwout bearing, pressure plate, clutch, etc. as causes.


I just did a new clutch and flywheel last weekend, so this is all fresh in my head.....everything you said seems as though you have checked everything that could be wrong.

Are you getting proper resistance from the pedal (would show that the TOB IS actually engaging the pressure plate)?

[DaPCWiz]

i know this is kinda shady - my car was doing the same thing after my manual swap a couple years ago. After working for 2+ days trying to get things working, me and my friends were fed up. I rolled over, giving up, and my friend was like gimme the keys.

Threw the car in gear, started it, started going. He went upa nd down the street, grinding/ rev matching into gear. Came back 5 minutes later... everything was working. Worked fine for a good 40k+ miles after that till I decided I wanted a better clutch (turbo'd the car).

Now I don't recommend you actually do this, nor would I have done it myself...

two things I can think of - was there grease applied between the clutch and input shaft? Is the TOB on the right way?

[jspaeth]

i know this is kinda shady - my car was doing the same thing after my manual swap a couple years ago. After working for 2+ days trying to get things working, me and my friends were fed up. I rolled over, giving up, and my friend was like gimme the keys.

Threw the car in gear, started it, started going. He went upa nd down the street, grinding/ rev matching into gear. Came back 5 minutes later... everything was working. Worked fine for a good 40k+ miles after that till I decided I wanted a better clutch (turbo'd the car).

Now I don't recommend you actually do this, nor would I have done it myself...

two things I can think of - was there grease applied between the clutch and input shaft? Is the TOB on the right way?

You are implying that the clutch is not able to slide along the input shaft?

[DaPCWiz]

Yeah... not saying 100% that's it, but it could be a possibility... I've seen it happen before...

that or the TOB is on backwards... lol

[jspaeth]

Yeah... not saying 100% that's it, but it could be a possibility... I've seen it happen before...

that or the TOB is on backwards... lol


How would putting the TOB on backwards prevent the clutch from disengaging? Wouldn't it still push on the pressure plate, but just cause a hell of a lot of noise/rubbing/grinding?

[DaPCWiz]

How would putting the TOB on backwards prevent the clutch from disengaging? Wouldn't it still push on the pressure plate, but just cause a hell of a lot of noise/rubbing/grinding?

hmmm i guess ur right. I was thinking for some reason it wouldn't push the pressure plate correctly, but u make a valid point... My first point of the clutch not sliding nicely on the input shaft could still be valid though...

[jspaeth]

hmmm i guess ur right. I was thinking for some reason it wouldn't push the pressure plate correctly, but u make a valid point... My first point of the clutch not sliding nicely on the input shaft could still be valid though...


I think this is possible, but I think without the pressure plate pressing the clutch against the flywheel (i.e. pedal pushed down)....the clutch would naturally works its way away from the flywheel to the point where you should be able to shift.

[DaPCWiz]

I think this is possible, but I think without the pressure plate pressing the clutch against the flywheel (i.e. pedal pushed down)....the clutch would naturally works its way away from the flywheel to the point where you should be able to shift.

If there is any damage to the splines on the clutch or the input shaft... however minor it may be... it could be causing the clutch to get hung up from moving away like it should, especially if the input shaft isn't greased. I've seen it happen on a buddy's car ended up having to pull the clutch and file down one of the splines on the clutch to fix the issue.

[rican_nick]

If you can physically see the slave moving the distance that it is supposed to, then that eliminates any pedal/hydraulic issues, leaving only the clutch fork, throwout bearing, pressure plate, clutch, etc. as causes.)

Correct. I agree 100%


I just did a new clutch and flywheel last weekend, so this is all fresh in my head.....everything you said seems as though you have checked everything that could be wrong.

Are you getting proper resistance from the pedal (would show that the TOB IS actually engaging the pressure plate)?

Resistance is good. Peddle actually feels better now with the Exedy PP over the Spec.

[rican_nick]

i know this is kinda shady - my car was doing the same thing after my manual swap a couple years ago. After working for 2+ days trying to get things working, me and my friends were fed up. I rolled over, giving up, and my friend was like gimme the keys.

Threw the car in gear, started it, started going. He went upa nd down the street, grinding/ rev matching into gear. Came back 5 minutes later... everything was working. Worked fine for a good 40k+ miles after that till I decided I wanted a better clutch (turbo'd the car).

Now I don't recommend you actually do this, nor would I have done it myself...

two things I can think of - was there grease applied between the clutch and input shaft? Is the TOB on the right way?


Lol.. I am definitley at the give up point.

I have thought about driving on it as one of the theories I had was the pucks on the clutch disc may be to thick and needed to "worked" some.. I just dont want to risk damaging anything just in case if there is some kind of factory defect I dont want to void the possibility of an exchange. I also felt like the press test should answer the question about the disc being to thick..

[rican_nick]

I want to thank you guys for trying to help me out with this..

So.. follow me on this one. I am going to say upfront that this doesnt make sense nor do I think it's possible..

BUT....

When reassembling the transmission could i have "jammed" the disc against the Pressure plate effectively locking it??

It doesnt make sense for the following reasons
1. tranny mounted to the block flat
2. Input shaft would have had to line up with the NEW Pilot bearing meaning everything including disc should be straight.

I only bring this up because Exedy's site mentions that inproper input shaft alignment would void warranty and cause premature wear of the clutch.. how this is possibe beats me but they show pictures of the damage, which currently my clutch disc does not show any evidence of.

Troubleshooting Guide : Exedy Clutch Europe, Performance Clutches (http://www.exedy.co.uk/index.php?main_page=troubleshooting_guide)

Discs> Difficult to disengage gears
also
Discs> Difficult gear change

the description/pictures make sense to me.. but once again no signs of improper installation on my end.. when i disassembled the clutch components the first thing i did was put the alignment tool in to check alignment.

[jspaeth]

I want to thank you guys for trying to help me out with this..

So.. follow me on this one. I am going to say upfront that this doesnt make sense nor do I think it's possible..

BUT....

When reassembling the transmission could i have "jammed" the disc against the Pressure plate effectively locking it??

It doesnt make sense for the following reasons
1. tranny mounted to the block flat
2. Input shaft would have had to line up with the NEW Pilot bearing meaning everything including disc should be straight.

I only bring this up because Exedy's site mentions that inproper input shaft alignment would void warranty and cause premature wear of the clutch.. how this is possibe beats me but they show pictures of the damage, which currently my clutch disc does not show any evidence of.

Troubleshooting Guide : Exedy Clutch Europe, Performance Clutches (http://www.exedy.co.uk/index.php?main_page=troubleshooting_guide)

Discs> Difficult to disengage gears
also
Discs> Difficult gear change

the description/pictures make sense to me.. but once again no signs of improper installation on my end.. when i disassembled the clutch components the first thing i did was put the alignment tool in to check alignment.


i've only done one transmission to be honest, but my intuition tells me:

Even if the clutch was not PERFECTLY centered, the fact that you got the tranny to bolt up means that the splines aligned themselves and you got the input shaft into the crank.

EVEN if this is the case and there is some sort of "built up" initial friction due to improper alignment, the second you step on the pedal and release the pressure plate, this friction or built up force will be released, as the clutch disc will shift so that it's no longer under force.


To be honest though, the fit of the input shaft through the clutch disc is tight enough that once you get it in and start tightening the tranny back to the block, it will just pull the clutch disc into place on its own (i.e. clutch disc will move around between PP and flywheel, even though there is a lot of pressure between the two).

[rican_nick]

All valid points that I totally agree with.

This issue makes no sense :(.

I read a bunch of threads with the Exedy Hyper Single and other plate style clutches requiring a different carrier and tob than what came with the kit... If i am not mistaken you have to go with a shorter overall carrier/tob.. which would make my problem worst (longer distance to disengage if everythings shorter).. other than this I have yet to find a single thread with a defect pressure plate or clutch kit... arghhhh.

[rican_nick]

I am pretty mind blown right now.. but esctatic that my car is back on the road.

So woke up this morning and procrastinated for a few hours looking at all the parts again trying to figure out what was wrong. Finally got to work and mounted everything.. everything look exactly as it did last time so I was not to enthused to try it again.

So bolted everything up still using my extended slave rod.

Clutch would still not disengage with the motor on.. highly pissed.

So with a friends help and the car off i got under the car and held the driveshaft by hand while he pushed the clutch in.. and to my surprise i was able to turn the driveshaft.. when it was in gear..Mind blown!

So then we turned the car on again and tried to get it into gear and it didnt disengage.

Finally i told my friend to turn on the car and force it into gear.....he did.

Then all of a sudden the damn clutch started disengaging...while ont he jackstands he was able to shift through all the gears.. I then swapped the slave rod back to the stock on...tested it again and everything still worked just as it did with the extended rod.

Lowered the car down and took it for a test drive.. clutch is engaging disengaging fine. I even speed shifted from 2nd through 4th at high rpms and did not have any weird hang ups.

Weird.. hope this helps (if you can call it that) for anyone that has a similar problem in the future

[heavenboundkevin]

so basically you rotated the driveshaft a little by hand, and it started working? weird.

hey man, i know what its like to be frustrated, and the JOY of getting your car driving again. feels good huh? Glad to hear.

[dongoesby]

so basically you rotated the driveshaft a little by hand, and it started working? weird.

hey man, i know what its like to be frustrated, and the JOY of getting your car driving again. feels good huh? Glad to hear.

No, he meant that he was able to rotate that driveshaft by hand when he is in gear while the motor is off. But I can almost share the same joy while I'm having the exact same problem.

I think it tells you the tranny is working correctly when you can shift through gears with the car is off. I can shift into gear like that without stepping on the clutch too.

[rican_nick]

With the car in gear and turned off the clutch was engaged so driveshaft should not turn. when u press the peddle it should allow driveshaft to spin. Not easily as there is still some friction.

This told me that the clutch was definitley disengaging. I could not explain why it did not disengage when the car was on that's when I started the car in first while in the air. Rev matched and forced it into second.... From that point it shifted into all other gears/reverse with no problem. Once again I have no real explanation but the driveshaft test I did will tell u if it is actually disenaging. I pmed you my cell Don. Feel free to call me if u need any help.