Writeup: custom Koni and Ground Control coilover setup assembly

[OptionZero]

Finally collected all the parts for a koni/ground control custom setup. . . and now that I finished taking the california bar exam, I have some time to mess with it.

There's a billion threads asking about what coilovers are best - from all I've heard from credible posters, this is the best possible setup. Comfort, adjustability, performance, price. The only thing that held me back was having to gather random parts and assemble, but now that I have all the parts and saw how it came together, it really wasn't that hard.

First off, parts checklist and pricing:
Fronts
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/OptionAero/KoniGroundControl/IMG_3772-1.jpg

1. Custom housings - $375/pair
These are custom made by Veilside180sx (Richard) who posts here and on his website NissanRoadRacing.com They can be made for S13/S14 and optional z32 uprights in the rear. I believe he can do different colors.

2. Gland Nuts - (included in Veilside180sx's housings)
These secure the Koni inserts inside of the housing.

3. Koni 8611-1257 Race Insert - $299/each (2 needed)
The heart of the setup - infinitely adjustable (2.5 turns) rebound on top, 12-clicks of compression adjustment on the bottom. Purchased from Shox.com

4. Ground Control coilover sleeves ($399/set including springs)
Height adjustment of about 3 inches IIRC. Come with Eibach springs in any spring rate/height you want. When ordering tell them you have Konis to get the proper internal diameter (ID). They also include top mounts, but I didn't use the fronts. Purchased from Shox.com

5. Eibach springs (included in GCs)
I used 2.5inch internal diameter and 7inch height, with 450 lbs/in front and 350 lbs/in rear spring rates. Roughly 8/6 in kg/mm.

6. Rubber o-rings (included in GCs)
O-rings that go around the coilover housing between the GC sleeves to prevent the sleeves from rotating when using the perch adjustment.

7. Bumpstop (comes with Koni inserts)

8. Flanged sleeve bearing (Mcmaster Part #6659K21) - $1.23/each, 4 needed
Required to center the Koni shaft within the Tein camber plate bearing. Flanged edge also serves as added surface area for the bearing to rest atop the Vorshlag top hat. Info: METRIC SAE 841 BRONZE FLANGED-SLEEVE BEARING, FOR 14 MM SHAFT DIAMETER, 18 MM OD, 14 MM LENGTH

EDIT: Get Mcmaster part # 6658K22 instead. That is a non-flanged sleeve bearing, 14mm ID, 18mm OD, 18mm length.

9. Locking nut (comes with Konis)
Secures the top of the coilover assembly.

10. Vorshlag spring perch - $75/pair from
These go atop the spring and below the Tein camber plate. These spring perches include a sealed bearing. The Tein camber plate has a spherical bearing that allows the coilover to deflect, but it is not designed for rotational forces which occur when the coilover's working. The Vorshlag spring perch can support the weight of the car while allowing the components to rotate safely. Purchased from RRT (http://www.roadracetech.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1204_1403&products_id=897)

11. Tein Pillow Ball front Upper Mounts - $190-200 from anywhere basically

There are a number of camber plates that work, I just went with the tried and true Teins because they're easy to get and others have used them before. The measurements I refer to may differ from camber plate to camber plate, so beware.

Rears:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/OptionAero/KoniGroundControl/IMG_3799-1.jpg

1. Custom housing
see above

2. Gland nut
see above

3. Koni 8610-1436 Race Insert - $199/each
Single adjustable for rebound only. You can use 8611's in the rear here as well, it's just another couple hundred bucks. Purchased from Shox.com

4. Ground control sleeve
See above

5. Eibach Spring
see above

6. Bumpstop
see above, comes with the Konis. Koni gives you 2 per set of inserts, but you only need 2. Because they are far too tall, I just cut them in half and use half on each corner.

7. Tein Pillowball Rear Upper Mounts- $160-$175
see above

8. Locking nut
Comes with the Konis.

9. Flanged bearing
This is an important piece - it's a small metal flanged bearing INCLUDED in the Vorshlag top hats used in front. Distinguish this from the other brass flanged bearing from McMaster (entry 8 in the fronts). This pieces will be used to space the rear tophat from the Tein upper mount. The internal diameter of this piece is 14mm, which is appropriate for the Koni shaft, but the OD is TOO BIG to fit within the tein upper mount. It therefore cannot function as a centering mechanism the way the brass bearing can.

EDIT: Get Mcmaster part # 6658K22 instead. That is a non-flanged sleeve bearing, 14mm ID, 18mm OD, 18mm length.

10. Brass Flanged Sleeve bearing - $1.23.
I told you to order 4 of these above. This CAN fit inside the tein bearing and center the koni shaft. Purchase from Mcmaster.com

11. Torrington Bearing - $8.37/each
This is a needle and roller bearing. Combined with the housing pieces below, they will serve the same funtion as the Vorshlags, but for cheaper. You can use Vorshlags here if you wanna spring for it. The only difference is these are unsealed but cheaper. Order from Amazon.com HERE (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000MNC6BG/ref=ox_ya_oh_product). You need 2.

12. Torrington Bearing Housings - $3.67
These will sandwich a Torrington bearing. Amazon listing here (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000MNA9S8/ref=ox_ya_os_product). You need 4.


. . .

Second, putting it all together

FRONTS

Step one:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/OptionAero/KoniGroundControl/IMG_3777.jpg

Put Koni 8611 insert into front housing. The bottom of the housing has a hole for the compression adjuster.

Step two:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/OptionAero/KoniGroundControl/IMG_3778.jpg

Wrap a couple of the Ground Control-supplied rubber rings around the housing. These will prevent the sleeve from rotating through simple friction

Step three:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/OptionAero/KoniGroundControl/IMG_3779.jpg

The front Ground control sleeves have this black ring on the inside. I'm not sure what it's for, but it prevents the sleeve from sliding all the way down the housing properly. I just punched it out. Be careful, it only slides out one way.

Step four:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/OptionAero/KoniGroundControl/IMG_3780.jpg

Slip the Ground Control sleeve over the housing.

Step five:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/OptionAero/KoniGroundControl/IMG_3781.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/OptionAero/KoniGroundControl/IMG_3782.jpg

Place the Veilside180sx-supplied gland nut above the housing, make sure its centered properly, and tighten it so the Koni insert is snug inside the housing. You should use threadlocker on this, you do not want it getting lose. I did not use the threadlocker yet because I am just test fitting everything. If i fuck up i want to be able to take it apart.

Step six:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/OptionAero/KoniGroundControl/IMG_3783.jpg

Take half a bumpstop (if you haven't yet, hack 'em in half) and slide it onto the shaft of the Koni insert.

Step seven:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/OptionAero/KoniGroundControl/IMG_3785.jpg

Mount the spring on top of the Ground Control perch.

Step eight:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/OptionAero/KoniGroundControl/IMG_3786.jpg

Put the Vorshlag top mount above the spring. The ID of the vorshlag piece is 14mm, so the Koni shaft goes right through it.

Step nine:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/OptionAero/KoniGroundControl/IMG_3788.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/OptionAero/KoniGroundControl/IMG_3787.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/OptionAero/KoniGroundControl/IMG_3791.jpg

Put one of the flanged brass sleeve bearings inside the Tein spherical bearing. The pictures should show you why you need the bearing. With no brass piece, the rim of the Tein bearing is putting all of the weight on to the metal snout of the Vorshlag piece. With the brass piece, there is more surface area. The brass piece also centers the Koni shaft inside the Tein bearing.

Step ten:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/OptionAero/KoniGroundControl/IMG_3794.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/OptionAero/KoniGroundControl/IMG_3795.jpg

Thread the Koni-supplied nut onto the Koni shaft and tighten it up. This requires threadlocker as well. I believe Koni recommends 33 lbs/ft of torque. I'm not entirely sure what the best way to tighten it is. With a socket over the nut, I think you'd need some way to hold onto the Koni shaft. Def suggested carefully using vice grips to hold the shaft while you tighten the nut.

Here's a pic showing the articulation available:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/OptionAero/KoniGroundControl/IMG_3792.jpg


REARS

Step one:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/OptionAero/KoniGroundControl/IMG_3804.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/OptionAero/KoniGroundControl/IMG_3805.jpg

As before, drop the Koni insert into the housing. Wrap one of the GC-supplied rubber rings around the housing.


Step two:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/OptionAero/KoniGroundControl/IMG_3807.jpg

Slide the ground control sleeve on.

Step three:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/OptionAero/KoniGroundControl/IMG_3808.jpg

Thread the Veilside180sx-supplied gland nut onto the housing. Don't forget threadlocker.

Step four:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/OptionAero/KoniGroundControl/IMG_3809.jpg

Bump stop goes on.

Step five:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/OptionAero/KoniGroundControl/IMG_3802.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/OptionAero/KoniGroundControl/IMG_3810.jpg

Put one of the Torrington bearing housings on.

Step six:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/OptionAero/KoniGroundControl/IMG_3811.jpg

Bearing itself goes next.

Step seven:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/OptionAero/KoniGroundControl/IMG_3812.jpg

Top it off with another housing piece.

Step eight:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/OptionAero/KoniGroundControl/IMG_3813.jpg

Spring

Step nine:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/OptionAero/KoniGroundControl/IMG_3814.jpg

Shit, i forgot to mention it above. . . that silver piece is a top hat supplied by Ground Control. GC gives you four, I only used two since I have vorshlags in front. It has the proper ID for the Koni shaft (14mm)

Step ten:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/OptionAero/KoniGroundControl/IMG_3815.jpg

Important point - put the flanged piece that comes with the VORSHLAG tophats above the ground control top hat. It has the proper ID for the Koni shaft, but as mentioned, it will not go inside the Tein bearing . . .but we don't want it to. This piece serves as a spacer between the GC tophat and the Tein bearing to there is room for the Tein camber plate to deflect.

Step eleven:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/OptionAero/KoniGroundControl/IMG_3816.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/OptionAero/KoniGroundControl/IMG_3817.jpg

Put the Tein top mount on. As you can see in the second pic, the Koni shaft is not properly centered inside the bearing. We can't have that flopping around . . .

Step twelve:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/OptionAero/KoniGroundControl/IMG_3818.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/OptionAero/KoniGroundControl/IMG_3819.jpg

This is where the brass flanged pieces come in handy. Insert it into the Tein bearing, and viola, the Koni shaft is centered.

Step thirteen:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/OptionAero/KoniGroundControl/IMG_3820.jpg

Use the last Koni-nut to hold it all together. Threadlocker here as well.



Hope this explains it. If deemed useful, perhaps it can go into the Premieproject area or FAQ section.

And if i fucked up anything, please let me know asap.


Much love to veilside180sx, McCoy, Def, and anyone else I bugged.

Waiting for Def's z32 upright bearings so I can get all that stuff on my car.

[Otto347]

Looks good so far!

[V1A]

You're going to want to cut the flange off of the brass spacers you're using inside of the camber plates. That flange will eventually deform from the loads it will see when set up like that. I used a 4.5" cutoff wheel to hack it off, and a file to deburr it when I set mine up.

Also, it kind of sucks that you got the barrel shaped eibachs. With some dealers you have to specify that you want springs with a consistent OD. I'd try to send those back; otherwise you're going to lose more inside wheel/tire clearance than necessary.

[OptionZero]

You're going to want to cut the flange off of the brass spacers you're using inside of the camber plates. That flange will eventually deform from the loads it will see when set up like that. I used a 4.5" cutoff wheel to hack it off, and a file to deburr it when I set mine up.

Also, it kind of sucks that you got the barrel shaped eibachs. With some dealers you have to specify that you want springs with a consistent OD. I'd try to send those back; otherwise you're going to lose more inside wheel/tire clearance than necessary.

Will the brass deforming be that big a deal? The flanged rim is so thin already . . .

I have some non-flanged bearings that are 18mm in length, I can just hack those in half. It'll be easier than cutting off the flanged edge.

I'll give shox.com a call and see if i can trade the springs.

Not too worried about inside clearance, I'm not running any 315's in front yet :D I think an s14 has sufficient clearance that I'll be ok; kouki fenders are as wide as it gets stock, and i can get a pull if i have to.

[mothon]

Great writeup. Can't wait for your review after you get some driving time on them.

[V1A]

Will the brass deforming be that big a deal? The flanged rim is so thin already . . .


I'd be worried about it breaking off and leaving a void in the assembly. There would be about 2-3mm of space for the spring, tophat, etc. to bounce around and make a lot of noise and possibly damage something.

Not too worried about inside clearance

Wish I could say the same for my s13.

[murda-c]

What's the use of the torrington bearings on the rear? Do they rotate that much?

[ManoNegra]

Nice write up
digging the multi-purpose work bench

[Rittmeister]

What's the use of the torrington bearings on the rear? Do they rotate that much?

It probably doesn't rotate much, but the Torrington eliminates any possibility of binding due to rotation.

I actually used a second set of Vorshlag upper perches in the rear of my S13, partly for this reason, partly for a cleaner upper assembly.

V1A, x2 on wishing there was more room in the front of an S13...

[bigOdom1]

your going to like them a lot. its really like being on rails with GC and koni's. one day ill change from the yellow's to the 8611

[slider2828]

SICK.... What is the total price afterwards?

[BustedS13]

i'll bite

how low do these go.

[genericforumname]

you have no idea how much this helps me, I was going to buy off the shelf coilovers and build some of these in the future after I figured out what I was doing, now I can just jump right in. I am assuming they aren't on the car yet? once they are it would be nice to have some feedback on ride quality

[Rittmeister]

I have a similar setup on my S13. Ride quality is excellent, despite having pretty stiff springs. Rides better than a JIC-equipped car I've driven, and much better than a K-Sport car. I've got a friend locally who has Stance on his car, but I've yet to drive it to make a comparison.

[slideways2004]

what did the total pricing come out to??

and how low do these go compared to something like stance

[airforceone451]

It's about $1500 for all 4 corners (depends where you buy your shocks from). You won't get the "slammed" look though, this is purely for people looking to have more control and quality.

[silviaguy240]

so height adjustment is only available through drooping?

[ZenkiKid]

that is correct.

[Om1kron]

so fucking bad ass, seriously the best coil over setup you can build period. You can have the shocks valved by koni to your liking and always order up different springs from eibach for the gc's.

[OptionZero]

so height adjustment is only available through drooping?

I believe due to the design of the housings, even putting the spring perch at its highest setting still results in lowering the car an inch or so. That's according to some S13 guys like McCoy. Don't know its effect on the s14.

Veilside180sx said i shouldn't have any problems matching my currrent ride height (car at top of the tire level, maybe a shade below).

what did the total pricing come out to??

and how low do these go compared to something like stance

Total price? You can shop around for camber plates and maybe get some used ones or a different brand (ebay?).

$1000 for Konis on all 4 corners
$750 for housings
$400 for GC + eibachs
$75 for vorshlag tophats in front
$325 for Teins
$28 for the torrington bearings ($8x2 + $3x4)
random shit like the brass bearings were only a few bucks

$2478 total the way I did it

You can knock off $200 if you go with 8610's in front instead of 8611. Take off another $47 if you skip the vorshlags and use regular torrington bearings in front. Used camber plates would probably halve what I spent on the new Teins, but surprisingly no one had any used ones when i was looking. One of those cases where they're only available when u don't need it.

If somehow you score used GC's u can shave off more.

I'll make a few hundred back selling my old Apexi's, they're still good.

Admittedly if you were in the market for Megans or D2 or whateve these are double the price. . . but these are better than any of the $2000ish JDM coilovers.

I think a year ago or so Koni jacked up their prices quite a bit. I might have seen 8611's for around $200 somewhere before . . . but thats long gone.

[OptionZero]

Nice write up
digging the multi-purpose work bench

You can use my washing machine.

If I can use your machine shop. :naughtyd:

[OptionZero]

You're going to want to cut the flange off of the brass spacers you're using inside of the camber plates. That flange will eventually deform from the loads it will see when set up like that. I used a 4.5" cutoff wheel to hack it off, and a file to deburr it when I set mine up.

Also, it kind of sucks that you got the barrel shaped eibachs. With some dealers you have to specify that you want springs with a consistent OD. I'd try to send those back; otherwise you're going to lose more inside wheel/tire clearance than necessary.

Called Shox. They said to call GC. Called GC. They won't exchange my spring, although they did confirm they make 2.5inch ID, 7inch tall, 450 and 350 rate springs with consistent diameter.

GC's explanation is that the barrel shape provides more clearance on spring compression so there is no coilbind (makes sense, i guess).

If I start running into problems with tire clearance, I can always change springs . . . and call Hypercoil :wackit:

[turtle m3th]

WOW! great write up. I can't wait to see your review and stance after you install them, because I've been thinking on what to upgrade to, but don't want to drop all the coin at once.

[Pacman]

Awesome write-up. Ground Control is in my backyard (about a 10 minute drive). I went a long time ago and they wanted like $800 with AGX's for my S13. I wish I used that set-up. I wanna try this sometime to compare to my Flex's.

[BustedS13]

if you used AGX's instead of Koni's... you'd shave like, what, over a grand off of that

[OptionZero]

You'd save a grand easily. AGX's are stand alone, not inserts . . . no housings needed, and they're like half the price of the Konis themselves.


I wouldn't recommend AGX's though. Mine blew with just RS-R Sus Down springs (like 3 kg/mm all around i think). Didn't even track the car (a few auto-X's and daily driving on highway). A koni yellow in the rear will save alot of money still.

[McCoy]

I believe due to the design of the housings, even putting the spring perch at its highest setting still results in lowering the car an inch or so. That's according to some S13 guys like McCoy. Don't know its effect on the s14.
Here is mine adjusted about 1/4" down from the top of the perch with 6" 550lb springs. I could probably drop the car another 1-2" easily without fear of running out of suspension travel, but due to the hilly area I live in dare not.
http://www.prmsg.org/albums/album76/S13_May_after_wash_shot.sized.jpg





GC's explanation is that the barrel shape provides more clearance on spring compression so there is no coilbind (makes sense, i guess).

If I start running into problems with tire clearance, I can always change springs . . . and call Hypercoil
You should be ok, the spring should be above the tire enough that this shouldn't be an issue up front. If it is, that's the beauty of these, ERS springs (or hyperco) can be found almost anywhere.

Here's mine with the current ride height... those are 255 RA-1's on a 17x9.5 +28
http://www.prmsg.org/albums/album101/V3_housings_09_update_05.sized.jpg

if you used AGX's instead of Koni's... you'd shave like, what, over a grand off of that
I've driven on AGX's and GC's and it's no comparison to driving on Koni 86XX's. They also can't handle the spring rates that the koni's can and you can't lower your car without taking the chance of blowing them due to bottoming out.

[chitownguy]

Cool, never knew people did this setup often on their 240's. I have Koni's and GC's on my e30 but it's more for getting low than handling.

[ManoNegra]

You can use my washing machine.

If I can use your machine shop. :naughtyd:

deal!
I'll be needing a washer and drier soon...
the z32 bearings should be done soonish, I'll be expecting a full write up then

Cool, never knew people did this setup often on their 240's. I have Koni's and GC's on my e30 but it's more for getting low than handling.

there are a number but unfortunately they tend to get lost in the JDM-coilover-of-the-month hype.

[Pblesh85]

is this an auto cross set up or drifting ? (I know you can get what ever valve & spring rates you choose)

How are these better than a good low price coilover(i.e. pbm, ect...) ?

[EchaKqulo]

Cool writeup, after riding it let us know what you think!!!

[OptionZero]

is this an auto cross set up or drifting ? (I know you can get what ever valve & spring rates you choose)

How are these better than a good low price coilover(i.e. pbm, ect...) ?

The categorization of certain coilovers as "grip" or "drifting" is mostly a myth . . . all cars can benefit from better suspension, regardless of what they're used for.

There are smarter people than me that can explain it better, but my view is the level most drifters are at, the coilovers they have really don't matter. Drifting is, technically speaking, the sport of pure car control for car control's sake- not for the sake of outright speed around a track (why do you think there's no clock?). Most of the crappy coilovers out there have high spring rates with insufficient damping or improper damping characteristics. Since most people just wanna get sideways for the fun of it, however, the suspension flaws are simply irrelevant.

Better coilovers come with better dampers that supply enough compression and rebound damping to allow springs to compress and decompress gradually in a controlled manner, rather than simply slamming up and down (no damping at all, bouncy) or worse . . . springs so stiff that they don't compress at all, turning the car into little more than a shopping cart.

I'll let someone smarter than me take over.

[Spoolpigeon]

wow! excellent write up!

quick question though, do the aftermarket shock bodies allow for more wheel clearance? and do they let you place the shock lower to get more travel out of it? I have an off-the-shelf koni/GC setup and those are my two complaints. with the car on the ground the shock is towards the bottom of its travel. and there is very little clearance between the spring perch and the tire sidewall. it kinda limits me to how wide a tire i can stick in the front.

[civicsi2]

been running the 8611's for about the same time as mccoy has. I got 8611's up front with 550lb GC kit and Koni Yellows in the back with 400lb GC's. I saved money buying used yellows.
Had D2's, KTS, and Tein Flex's on my 240s. these are by far the best setup I think I can get for the money. I'd spend around 2000 for a comparable coilover setup. I've done a bunch of track day with these and every time someone rides with me they are amazed at how well they perform.

I would say these are more ideal for track day, autox, road racers, cause most drifters won't spend the money. as i wouldn't either if i was planning on hitting shit with my car.

my most recent picture with V3 housings, i'm not looking to get the car as low as possible, so ride height is not a problem especially since the shock travel is somewhat low with 550lb springs.
http://home.comcast.net/~yourmom.124/100_1374r.jpg
This is full camber, 17x9 +22 RPF1's, 245 re-o1r.
http://home.comcast.net/~sr20s13/100_1183.JPG

[OptionZero]

I just realized a blindingly simple solution to the barrel-shaped springs problem. I have two barrel shaped springs and two consistent diameter springs.

I can just put the barrel shaped ones in the back, where there's loads and loads of clearance. Gah. I'm stupid.

[OptionZero]

wow! excellent write up!

quick question though, do the aftermarket shock bodies allow for more wheel clearance? and do they let you place the shock lower to get more travel out of it? I have an off-the-shelf koni/GC setup and those are my two complaints. with the car on the ground the shock is towards the bottom of its travel. and there is very little clearance between the spring perch and the tire sidewall. it kinda limits me to how wide a tire i can stick in the front.

From what other owners have said, there's way more space with these housings.

[Crazyirish]

I can just put the barrel shaped ones in the back, where there's loads and loads of clearance. Gah. I'm stupid.

Do you really want your 8k springs in the back and your 6k up front?

[OptionZero]

fuck

i was solely thinking in terms of length

forgot all about rate

shoot me

[EchaKqulo]

^^ But you can try it to se how is the feeling of the car (6k front and 8k on the back) and adjust bound and rebound of the shocks towards your desire. If you don't like it then change them again.

[timtiminy]

i wanna do this setup, wish it was a bit cheaper though...

[McCoy]

i wanna do this setup, wish it was a bit cheaper though...
Used GC hardware and tein plates, 8610's up front and koni yellows out back is going to be the most cost effective way to go. Probably in the $1500 range if your a good shopper... I ran this setup for a while, minus the adjustability, it rode as nice as the 8611F/8610R setup I have now.

[timtiminy]

what do you think of the upper camber plates sold by delubozparts on ebay? ~$90 shipped...
oh and what koni yellows for the rear would you use if using z32 rear uprights?
also what is the model of 8610 series you would recommend, since i noticed the numbering goes 8610-xxxxSPORT

[ronmcdon]

Great write-up, thanks for the comprehensive presentation!

correct me if I'm off, but aren't the 8611 shocks with the 2-way externally adjustable rebound & compression?
How many ppl would even benefit from that feature?

Seems the the 'off the shelf' koni yellows would be a much cheaper solution.
IIRC, a set of ots regular yellows would be around $500.
maybe saving a few hundred off the total price.

That could be a more cost effective alternative,
if fine tuning the rebound & compression isn't a necessity.

I've had the OTS Koni yellow w/ GC w/ custom rate setup on my old civic & miata with great results.
Then again, the cars were only for occasional track/autoX events,
not built for competition use.
Maybe most of us here could probably skimp on the 8611 shocks for regular Koni yellows.

[OptionZero]

what do you think of the upper camber plates sold by delubozparts on ebay? ~$90 shipped...
oh and what koni yellows for the rear would you use if using z32 rear uprights?
also what is the model of 8610 series you would recommend, since i noticed the numbering goes 8610-xxxxSPORT

Def uses the deluboz plates, so they seem fine. I believe others on NissanRoadRacing.com use them as well.

I don't know which Koni yellows are best for z32 rears. Purely speculation on my part, but an S13 might be able to use the Z32 application, since i believe they are the right length. An s14 is different, so i have no idea. Best to call up Koni?

As for the 861x series . . .

Front:
8611-1257 or
8610-1436

Rear:
8611-1258 or
8610-1436

DOUBLE CHECK WITH VEILSIDE180SX BEFORE ORDERING, no sense ordering the wrong one

The only difference is the length, i think.

[OptionZero]

Great write-up, thanks for the comprehensive presentation!

correct me if I'm off, but aren't the 8611 shocks with the 2-way externally adjustable rebound & compression?
How many ppl would even benefit from that feature?

Seems the the 'off the shelf' koni yellows would be a much cheaper solution.
IIRC, a set of ots regular yellows would be around $500.
maybe saving a few hundred off the total price.

That could be a more cost effective alternative,
if fine tuning the rebound & compression isn't a necessity.

I've had the OTS Koni yellow w/ GC w/ custom rate setup on my old civic & miata with great results.
Then again, the cars were only for occasional track/autoX events,
not built for competition use.
Maybe most of us here could probably skimp on the 8611 shocks for regular Koni yellows.

Someone should correct me if I'm wrong, but i believe the Yellow doesn't let you go as low . . . if that doesn't matter to you, then it doesn't matter :)

[ronmcdon]

Maybe I missed something, but what was the benefit of the housings?
Does it have to do with lowering and/or inside/outside clearance?

Just contemplating potential cost-cutting measures & the respective trade-off's.
8611 are indeed badass shocks however you look at it though.
would they require more frequent rebuilds?

Need to get back reading more stuff on that Nissan Road Race forum.
Good stuff there!

[OptionZero]

The housings go lower and allow for more travel when low, they also provide more inside clearance.

Plus measuring and cutting up housings yourself requires labor and tools. If you can do it yourself, more power to you . . . but its more than i can do.

[ronmcdon]

Got it, so the housings are pretty much the solution to the whole Koni/GC compatibility issue with 240's from the beginning.
Not a cheap part, but I can certainly see it's value!

Be interesting to see how much lowered your car is, and comparative driving impressions.
Pls keep us informed.

Thanks!

[Rittmeister]

Richard's housings (front) work with 8610s and 8611s. I don't know if they work with yellows. 8610 are single-adjustable and less expensive than 8611.

On the rear of my S13, I used Eclipse shocks (p/n 8041-1208Sport). These are externally adjustable, WITHOUT needing to remove them from the car. They have adjusters at the top of the strut shaft just like the 86xx stuff. The S13 yellows must be removed from the car to adjust. For a few more bucks the Eclipses work great. I have no idea if they'd work with an S14 though - the Eclipse shocks are a few millimeters shorter than the S13 shocks, which doesn't matter when the car's lowered. I understand the S14 shocks are substantially longer though, so they might not work.

[Silverbullet]

for yellows, you can just use the stock housings.

[gunluvS14]

brilliant thread! thumbs up

[OptionZero]

for yellows, you can just use the stock housings.

To clarify: the yellows are inserts in the front, stand-alone in the rear

[NINJASPY]

I have heard of people using ots front koni's in the rear so they can be externally adjustable.

I am also thinking rebuilding a megan street coilover set and putting koni's in them, anyone have any experiences? or measurements of the ots yellows?

[inertiaticism]

Some points to add, I have a Koni setup on the front of mine and spent a bit of R+D time making it work and learned a bit.

The Deluboz plates will work, but I had a lot of trouble getting them to bolt on, after I added the upper springplate to the assembly.
The little shouldered spacer they give you to center the strut shaft in the pillow ball made it so that I could not get thread engagement on the upper strut bolt. I had to make my own spacers, but this may be because of the upper spring plates I used.

If you're cheap, you can do this for about 1/3rd what the OP spent, but his setup is really the way to go if you can save the cash to do it right.
Doing it cheap means one of two things, you're either doing it ghetto as hell (my original setup) or you're going to end up doing some trial and error fitment and making some stuff like I am now.
I used ebay coilover sleeves, threw all of the hardware away but the sleeve itself and the little steel ring they give for the sleeve to sit on, the spring itself is garbage and you shouldn't use it, imo.
But the sleeves themselves are suprisingly good quality and haven't crossthreaded or seized in a year of weather exposure and occasional daily driving. Note, if you're really serious about suspension setup, the cheaper sleeves are coarser in thread pitch than the GC and would probably make it difficult to get the car cornerweighted really well.

Really though, if you're not willing to waste a bunch of your time playing with it, just buy new stuff.
I just saved a shitload of money by buying worn out dampers and having them rebuilt locally, which I was told could not be done but was able to get done for $100 by a circle track shock guy.
They work well now, even if they die soon, I paid so little for them it's no huge loss.
I'll admit that my setup doesn't perform quite as well as OptionZero's, as his is really the best way to do it and uses very good stuff.
Veilside180sx's bodies look WAY better than my current ones, worth the coin for sure imho. Mine are strong, but not the prettiest looking.
I'd have gotten his if I had seen them before I did mine.
However, if you can weld or know someone who can and don't mind doing a bunch of pain in the ass parts gathering from mcmaster and trial and error fitting, you can get a decent setup for less than you'd spend the cheapest of ebay coils if you can get a hookup on used dampers.
I've probably got about $400 in mine total and am pretty happy with the outcome.

[plusONETEN]

Rittmeister, you got any info or pics of the eclipse shock install in the rear? im wondering what the lower perch looks like... can you add a threaded sleeve to them for height/corner weighting? Do they require custom upper mounts or something so the adjustment knob fits?

Id love to have easy access to damper adjustment for all four corners, if possible and I dont want to spend a million bucks... might be just what ive been looking for...

[Rittmeister]

The Eclipse rear (this is NOT a product line from Koni, it's a Koni shock for a Mitsubishi Eclipse) is functionally the same as a Koni S13 rear shock, it's just a few mm shorter overall (doesn't matter if you're lowered) and has a 12mm diameter shaft instead of the S13's 10mm shaft. The larger diameter is necessary to accomodate the adjuster within the shaft, so you can turn the knob at the top to adjust it, instead of removing it from the car like you must do with the S13 shock.

As far as uppers, you just use the Tein plate or the factory mount, with whatever bushings and spacers match up. You can get to the adjuster by opening the trunk. In a coupe you have to cut out some of the trunk trim, but if you've got an upper strut bar you already did that anyway.

For threaded sleeves, you use Ground Control just like with the front. No offense, but Duh! :D

Here's a pic the first time I installed it, before removing it to ditch the GC upper mount in favor of a Vorshlag unit.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c88/kwstine1/S13/IMG_2215.jpg

And here's a detail of the top, after some surgery, but showing the adjuster etc.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c88/kwstine1/S13/IMG_2258-1.jpg

Like in OptionZero's directions, you just need a spacer under the Tein mount, and a bronze bushing from McMaster to match the Tein plate to the strut shaft. The OD is 18mm and the ID is 12mm, same as the shaft.

Hope that helps.

[plusONETEN]

hell yea man, thats exactly what I was looking for. what's that thing the threaded sleeve resting on? does the shock have a built in spring perch, or just those little rings for them to sit on... like this: http://www.redshiftmotorsports.com/media/06%20Civic%20RedShift%20Coilover%20Large.JPG

GC sleeve is pretty short, (2"?) but should be legit as long as i get the right length spring... how lowered is your car anyways?

[OptionZero]

Look at the picture of the housing
there's a perch for the sleeve to rest on

[Rittmeister]

Yeah, the pic shows it. The shock body has a snap ring like the pic you linked, and then the silver perch sits on that.

You can't use a longer sleeve or it sticks above the top of the shock body and the upper assembly could hit it under compression. Bad juju. It doesn't have a huge range of adjustment and you can't slam it to the ground, but then most guys don't understand that if you lower it that far you've compromised your roll centers anyway...

I just put up pics in the Pic Thread - look in the last couple days for a silver S13 coupe with Silvia front and R33 wheels.

[plusONETEN]

damn, that car looks sick. I like the ride height, thats probably about what im going to be going for... I want to run 275/40R17s though so i might want to go just a little lower lower if possible because of the taller tires.

shouldn't break the shock bottoming out or anything... it'll have bumpstops and fairly stiff springs... but will it affect the damping in any other way?
EDIT: just found on konis site that yellows are not position sensitive, neato!

my ball joints are shot... i might get roll center adjusters but i think its lame to pay an extra hundred bucks just for a shank thats a little longer...

[plusONETEN]

Front:
8611-1257 or
8610-1436

Rear:
8611-1258 or
8610-1436


Im not sure since i have not done this, but I think you migh have one or more of these mixed up

(just posted stroke cuz im lazy, but all the dimensions match from what I see)
Front:
8611-1257 143mm stroke
8610-1436 143mm stroke

Rear:
8611-1258 158mm stroke
8610-1436 143mm stroke

from
http://www.koniracing.com/8611.cfm

but i dont know what the correct ones would be... theres not actually a 8610 with the exact dimensions of the 8611-1258 either....

i cant seem to find the 8610s for less than 200 each though! if anyone knows where to find them cheaper let me know

[OptionZero]

Im not sure since i have not done this, but I think you migh have one or more of these mixed up

(just posted stroke cuz im lazy, but all the dimensions match from what I see)
Front:
8611-1257 143mm stroke
8610-1436 143mm stroke

Rear:
8611-1258 158mm stroke
8610-1436 143mm stroke

from
Koni Racing - ITT (http://www.koniracing.com/8611.cfm)

but i dont know what the correct ones would be... theres not actually a 8610 with the exact dimensions of the 8611-1258 either....

i cant seem to find the 8610s for less than 200 each though! if anyone knows where to find them cheaper let me know


8610s are 200 everywhere. 8611's are 300.

Part numbers from Nissan Road Racing (http://nissanroadracing.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=128)

If you want to confirm, PM veilside180sx there.

If another s14 owner has this setup and wants to chime in . . .

[Bumnah]

Thread saved! Great write up. I'm looking more and more into this setup!

[adam s]

great write up!

[veilside180sx]

8610s are 200 everywhere. 8611's are 300.

Part numbers from Nissan Road Racing (http://nissanroadracing.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=128)

If you want to confirm, PM veilside180sx there.

If another s14 owner has this setup and wants to chime in . . .

It's actually the 1257 and 1436 that I use for the rear S14 as well now.

[plusONETEN]

8610s are 200 everywhere. 8611's are 300.

from that first post, i was hoping they'd still be 200 a set, not each...

looks like im just going with the regular yellows on back rather than the inserts...

hope they can handle 450lb spring rate...

[Wave_s13]

the price is per pair

$200 for pair of 8610s
$300 for pair of 8611s

I got a quote from Shox.. the 8610 and 8611 inserts are $200/$300 each...

[OptionZero]

I got a quote from Shox.. the 8610 and 8611 inserts are $200/$300 each...

You're right. Editing the original post.

They came two per box, so I wasn't thinking.

[chitownguy]

My front spring perch just sits on top of my spring and makes a lot of noise over bumps. Any of you guys know of some way to get rid of this or at least quiet it. Pretty sure Vorschlag camber plates would've got rid of this but I had to go a different route. This is on an e30 btw but I don't think it would matter.

[plusONETEN]

a few more random questions...

i get that the torrington bearing or the vorschlag top hats allow the spring to rotate when you spin the steering wheel, but what about the shaft of the strut?
does the shaft rotate separately from the shock body, or what?


Also, say i catch 5 feet or air in my 240sx (lol) what will happen to the springs? because if the suspension droops too far, they could un-seat, which would be bad. I think the konis have internal bumpstops in regards to droop travel... are you guys running them set up in a way that it keeps the springs on the perches, or what?

is there such a thing as an extra short helper spring? Seeing as how theyre about a half inch when compressed, theyre going to cut into my ride height because I want the perches above the tires for extra wide tires (like McCoys older setup: http://www.sr20forum.com/gallery/data/959/medium/RA1_test_fitment_no_spacer_02.jpg)

It might not ever be a problem, but it would be lame if the spring unseated every time you lifted a wheel....

[Wave_s13]

a few more random questions...

Also, say i catch 5 feet or air in my 240sx (lol) what will happen to the springs? because if the suspension droops too far, they could un-seat, which would be bad. I think the konis have internal bumpstops in regards to droop travel... are you guys running them set up in a way that it keeps the springs on the perches, or what?

is there such a thing as an extra short helper spring? Seeing as how theyre about a half inch when compressed, theyre going to cut into my ride height because I want the perches above the tires for extra wide tires (like McCoys older setup: http://www.sr20forum.com/gallery/data/959/medium/RA1_test_fitment_no_spacer_02.jpg)

It might not ever be a problem, but it would be lame if the spring unseated every time you lifted a wheel....

I actually was thinking about this last night. Every time you jack up your car, would the spring be unseated?

[plusONETEN]

I actually was thinking about this last night. Every time you jack up your car, would the spring be unseated?

well, if you had the GC collar high enough that the spring was touching both the collar and the hat when the shock is fully extended, then it would stay on the perches... but that might mean a higher ride height than you want... this of course depends on the position of the shocks range of travel (like 5 inches) vs the springs range of travel (say 3.5 inches)
It woudnt be a bad thing to have the springs be at nearly its max free length at max droop, atleast not in any way that i can see (if the spring rate was super stiff, i think it could damage the shock though, but maybe not), but that might require some sort of threaded piece to adjust the position of the shock, not just the springs, unless you made the housings the exact right position to begin with.

but yea, if i could just see a pic on one of these setups at max droop (on jacks like you said) then i'd have a better idea of how my setup is going to work out...

[murda-c]

With the konis, i've read it takes a good while for the wheel to drop down even when on a lift because of the high rebound damping.

Meaning that the shock will never extend past where the spring can push it while driving.

[plusONETEN]

With the konis, i've read it takes a good while for the wheel to drop down even when on a lift because of the high rebound damping.

Meaning that the shock will never extend past where the spring can push it while driving.

makes sense... it would depend on the spring rate as well as the rebound.

But i never really see keeper springs on 500lb springs, its usually on stiffer ones, but not always.

I still wonder how far (and fast) they unseat when the car is on jacks though...

[murda-c]

makes sense... it would depend on the spring rate as well as the rebound.

But i never really see keeper springs on 500lb springs, its usually on stiffer ones, but not always.

I still wonder how far (and fast) they unseat when the car is on jacks though...

Found the post I was looking for.



The Konis will pretty much retain the spring from damping force alone. The off-the-shelf yellows on full stiff take forever to return to full length if left alone, and the 8611's I have can hold up the wheel and tire when jacking the car up (untill you actually push it down). Basically, the springs won't unseat unless you're airborne for a few seconds.

[amp2345]

Would anyone be able to explain why the housings are worth it vs just hacking up factory shocks? it look like perches where GC sits are designed for GC but besides that i'd really like to hear some facts as i am really looking to do this upgrade on my s14.

[OptionZero]

lower ride height
added travel
more wheel clearance inside
don't have to hack and measure yourself

[Def]

Would anyone be able to explain why the housings are worth it vs just hacking up factory shocks? it look like perches where GC sits are designed for GC but besides that i'd really like to hear some facts as i am really looking to do this upgrade on my s14.

You can't use 861x series struts with the stock strut housing. Those require a gland nut up top, and I believe are too big of a diameter for the stock housing.

[beefcake6681]

Will those part numbers (Vorshlag, McMaster, Torrington) work if you use Koni yellows? I don't know the diameter of the shaft for Koni yellows.

[OptionZero]

Yellows have a different diameter. They're also stand-alone in the rear (no housing required).

They don't handle lowness or stiffer rates as well as the 86xx's either.

[koukimatt]

A while back, I got a set of Koni Yellows and the Ground Control kit with sleeves and 400/300 Eibach ERS springs. It worked ok on my S14 but it made a lot of noise -- mainly squeaks and creaks in the rear -- and I didn't have camber plates for the front so I couldn't get the car aligned properly. I swapped out that setup for a set of Stances with 8/6 springs, and recently I traded the Stances to my brother for Tanabes with 10/8 springs. The Tanabes are too low for me, even at their highest point, and both the Stances and Tanabes are too harsh.

My question is: can I convert the Koni Yellow + GC setup to something similar to what OptionZero did? What parts do I need to do it?

[Def]

Squeaks and creaks? Never heard anything like that out of any Koni setup I've been around, except maybe the sound of fluid moving in the shocks at low temperatures(entirely normal, and not very loud).

All you need for the droop in the rear is a set of tender springs if you think that's causing noise - it isn't rocket science on putting them in. You need a spacer and a 2.5" ID set of tender springs.

[koukimatt]

The Koni Yellows that I have are designed for the OEM front housings and OEM springs. They aren't the same as the race inserts. Koni part numbers: Front 8641 1364Sport, rear 8040 1226Sport.

Front shock shaft diameters, measured with a digital caliper: 21.75 mm main shaft, 13.39 mm top. Above the top section is a short taper, and then the threads for the top nut(s).

Rear shock shaft diameters: 11.75 mm main shaft, 9.91 mm top. There is a bead between the body and the top section; it's a few mm wider than the main part of the shock shaft.

Will the Vorshlag spring perches and the Tein mounts fit on these shocks?

[bigOdom1]

mine were very loud creaking and squeaking until i got some miles on them

[smelly240]

semi off topic - but not completely


konis are badass - big ups.


I used the agx/gc setup before and if u go low - they unseat and POPBOOIIIIINNYOOIOIOINNNG back into place when u jack it... lol just like old jdm ones :P

konis probably wont do that - and if ur that serious u wont be that low anyhow.

[koukimatt]

No one replied to my question... Will the Vorshlag spring perches and the Tein mounts fit on OEM-style Koni Yellows?

[Spring Break '92]

Is it possible to get everything but the springs from GC?

[NINJASPY]

why wont they fit? read the first page, look at number 8. The diameter of the shaft must fit inside the top bearing piece, either drill it out or replace or it might fit who knows. the link says it fits koni. you just need to know the shaft size.

the upper spring perch will fit as long as the inner diameter of the spring is the same.

No one replied to my question... Will the Vorshlag spring perches and the Tein mounts fit on OEM-style Koni Yellows?

yes, call them... might take a few calls, maybe some convincing, they usually resist because they get calls from kids all the time. But times are tough and everyone needs to make sales.

Is it possible to get everything but the springs from GC?

[Def]

GC is run by a bunch of aholes. Chances are they won't sell you individual pieces, and they will probably give you quite a bit of attitude for your trouble.

[SoSideways]

Aww McCoy's pics are down!

I'd eventually move up to the 8610 / yellow setup, but right now, I need to spend the money to get the car back on the road instead.

Great write up!

[McCoy]

Hmmm, looks like the website I'm hosting from is down currently... it should be back up later I hope. And agreed on a good writeup!
Aww McCoy's pics are down!

Great write up!

[S14_Kouki]

Nice write up
digging the multi-purpose work bench

LMFAO

Nice write-up man

[OptionZero]

heads up for people putting the GC sleeves on

GC supplies some rubber bands that you wrote around the housing and create friction between the housing and the sleeve to hold it in place. Not the most technologically advanced system.

On one side, the rubber band has slid out of place so my sleeve is moving a bit. I don't think it's a huge problem, but I still have to get around to fixing it. I'd have to crack open the locking nut on top which means taking the whole thing off the car.

That and i need to get around to getting helper springs

[Def]

Just use a few wraps of electrical tape until it's tight. Adjust your springs down and you can do a wrap of tape by lifting the sleeve up.

[2toneluv]

damn that setup is a grip! my buddy works at ground control and i wanna say they cost waaay less then what you paid

[McCoy]

my buddy works at ground control and i wanna say they cost waaay less then what you paid
Do you want to clarify what costs way less... the GC coilover kit for $399 or OptionZero's whole suspension setup?

[PoorMans180SX]

Can someone please take a picture of how far the bottom of the damper housing is from the lower control arm in the front? And how much room is there between the bottom of the damper and the mounting bolt on an S13? I'm looking to drop the shocks as low as possible because I want to be low. I'm guessing Koni doesn't make shorter stroke dampers? I can't seem to get Koni's catalog to load on my computer.

[JesusFreakDrifter]

i would like to see lower, not slammed, but lower road race setups...............as a matter of fact how low can this setup go, without compromising roll center, and also has anyone thought of an even more efficient way to keep the springs from unseating...im tuned in

[240sxScores]

i would like to see lower, not slammed, but lower road race setups...............as a matter of fact how low can this setup go, without compromising roll center, and also has anyone thought of an even more efficient way to keep the springs from unseating...im tuned in

To keep the springs from unseating there's helper springs that are like only 100lbs resistance so when all the weight of the car is on the wheels the helper spring is compress but when weight is unloaded the helper spring expands and fills up the gap between spring and spring perch.

I have the front GC/Koni setup on my S13 with veilsides housings and im pretty low. You can either go really low and have good low center of gravity or sit them higher for correct roll center. Im using 6" long 2.5" ID 500# springs.

Im pretty sure though it can go super low but then you run into problems with the top of the tire hitting top of the fender well. Which im having a problem with at VIR in very heavy load high speed cornering.
Time for stiffer springs??

[2fly2die]

i have something kinda like this. great autocross setup

[Black R]

I'm looking to run something similar to this on my s13.

But I'd like to use the z32 aluminum uprights and q45 rear end, knuckles, etc.

The two caveats with this setup (IMO) are lack of separate lower perch adjustability, and the clunking issue due to unloading and reseating.

For Honda setups, ground control makes a decent extended tophat to prevent bottoming out the shocks. Is there not a similar Nissan application?

I guess I'll pm Richard to see if he can make those housings threaded with some height adjustment.

[McCoy]

I'm looking to run something similar to this on my s13.

But I'd like to use the z32 aluminum uprights and q45 rear end, knuckles, etc.
Like this... these are richards housings with Koni 8610's in them.
http://www.sr20forum.com/gallery/data/959/medium/Koni_8610_rear_installed.jpg

The two caveats with this setop (IMO) are lack of separate lower perch adjustability, and the clunking issue due to unloading and reseating.
The rears can go pretty low, and with the right spring length you will have pretty good adjustability out back. As for the clunking, I live in a pretty rough area and never hear clunking, even over uneven railroad tracks at speed, so I just don't see this as being an issue.

If you REALLY want to do something about it, just install a tender spring and be done with it.

[Black R]

Like this... these are richards housings with Koni 8610's in them.
http://www.sr20forum.com/gallery/data/959/medium/Koni_8610_rear_installed.jpg


The rears can go pretty low, and with the right spring length you will have pretty good adjustability out back. As for the clunking, I live in a pretty rough area and never hear clunking, even over uneven railroad tracks at speed, so I just don't see this as being an issue.

If you REALLY want to do something about it, just install a tender spring and be done with it.


Those are #1 on my list right now, but I just prefer to set ride height independently of preload. That's the only thing missing from that setup imo.

I don't even really mind *clunking* if it's not damaging anything, but it can be annoying and there's always that thought in the back of your head like 'what was that noise?' I know OptionZero posted something about needing tenders because of his seating and unseating randomly and the associated sounds...

[ZX88]

im doing something like this for my e30. i wish someone would make a affordable plug and play kit that goes low for that car..

these are awesome.

[Slammed Assassin]

great write up!

[PoorMans180SX]

Like this... these are richards housings with Koni 8610's in them.
http://www.sr20forum.com/gallery/data/959/medium/Koni_8610_rear_installed.jpg



Those look like the dampers go all the way to the bottom of the housing. Do they? Or can you shorten them up a bit?

Wondering the same thing for the fronts, and how close the bottom of the housing comes to the lower control arm.

[McCoy]

Those look like the dampers go all the way to the bottom of the housing. Do they? Or can you shorten them up a bit?
yep, the struts go all the way to the bottom.

Wondering the same thing for the fronts, and how close the bottom of the housing comes to the lower control arm.
Here's the best picture I have... they are close to the LCA, but I do have enough room under the housing to adjust compression.
http://www.prmsg.org/albums/album101/S14_hubs_V3_housings.sized.jpg

[Sterlz]

I'm glad to see there are some Zilvians who understand and appreciate what QUALITY suspension is!

[Def]

I get no clunking/popping on my 8611/8610 setup. I have tender springs in the rear, and get actual usable wheel travel(about 2.5" of droop from static ride height).

Why are you guys set on preloading the main spring. Why would you ever want to do that? Unless you're just talking about keeping it lightly snug, but then again, what does that get you except from even the possibility of more droop travel via a secondary(tender) spring?

[koukimatt]

Sorry for the thread necromancy... I'm still fighting with the crap on my car and I want to get it resolved.

I found this today. I don't know how long it's been around... I checked on GC's site some time before the holidays in 2009 and don't remember seeing it then, so it's relatively new...

Ground Control - Complete Kit - Nissan 240SX (95-98) S14 (http://www.ground-control-store.com/products/description.php/II=837/CA=7)

http://www.ground-control-store.com/images/fullsize/6066.70_fs.jpg

I see threaded sleeves and height-adjustable lower perches, upper perches, front pillowball upper mounts / camber plates, and an adjuster on top of the rear shaft (unlike my OEM replacement Konis).

It doesn't look like the rear upper mount has any articulation (it can't tilt - ?).

How does this compare to OptionZero's custom setup?

Edit: I just emailed Ground Control for more info, including a list of parts included in the kit, and questions about the upper mounts. I'll try to remember to post their response when I get it.

[slider2828]

Wow that is really good find!!! Not much information on this but I wonder if these are the double adjustable 8611s.... because this thread talks about using the correct 8611 shocks... I hope they are....

[ronmcdon]

that is interesting to say the least.
strange that they would sell it @ 1700 w/out any specs whatsoever.
my guess is that they're just using the ots Koni yellows, & not the nicer, double adjustable 8611's
(which is really more than sufficient for prob 90% of us, including myself).

[Homer_Simpson]

I would rather get some KWs for that kind of money.

[ronmcdon]

^^

I don't think you can fairly compare, unless you know the specifics of the said GC coilover.
KW's are wonderful however.

[ColumbusDrift]

koukimatt,

I just emailed GC too. This is exactly what I've been waiting for. An off-the-shelf tuned coilover set-up from a top manufacturer with Koni's that isn't too expensive. I hope they get back to me soon and also hope some of the second party aftermarket parts vendors can carry these at a slightly lower price.

[NINJASPY]

I am currently piecing together a setup and wonder what you guys think of this coilover-sleeve setup- 90-97 Mazda Miata EURO Style Coilover Kit 331090 : eBay Motors (item 160417693900 end time May-25-10 14:26:48 PDT) (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/90-97-Mazda-Miata-EURO-Style-Coilover-Kit-331090_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZalgoQ3dLVIQ26it uQ3dUCIQ26otnQ3d3Q26poQ3dLVIQ26psQ3d63Q26clkidQ3d8 835897084059048919QQ_trksidZp3286Q2em7QQcategoryZ3 3586QQihZ006QQitemZ160417693900)

I wondering if the upper spring perch on those look usable? They are flat rather than conical like I see on other setups. And the tender/helper springs? For the rear? What difference between the two? helper only "holds in place" and tender preloads?

Would the spring seperator/perch( between spring and tender-spring) work as a torrington bearing? or I would still need them? Put tender spring above the main spring? and torrington bearing below everything? or?

Have= 9k/7k stance springs in 7inch and front tein camber plates.
Need= shocks, housings, misc (bushings, torrington bearings etc), and coilover kit/upper spring perches, and rear top hats.

[koukimatt]

I am currently piecing together a setup and wonder what you guys think of this coilover-sleeve setup- 90-97 Mazda Miata EURO Style Coilover Kit 331090 : eBay Motors (item 160417693900 end time May-25-10 14:26:48 PDT) (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/90-97-Mazda-Miata-EURO-Style-Coilover-Kit-331090_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZalgoQ3dLVIQ26it uQ3dUCIQ26otnQ3d3Q26poQ3dLVIQ26psQ3d63Q26clkidQ3d8 835897084059048919QQ_trksidZp3286Q2em7QQcategoryZ3 3586QQihZ006QQitemZ160417693900)

I wondering if the upper spring perch on those look usable? They are flat rather than conical like I see on other setups. And the tender/helper springs? For the rear? What difference between the two? helper only "holds in place" and tender preloads?

We're talking about 2 separate things here: the upper spring *perch* (which keeps the spring centered around the shock shaft) and the *mount*, which should allow the shock to pivot independently of the spring.

Take a look at this.

Autocross.dsm.org - Build Your Own Konis (http://farnorthracing.com/autocross/konis.html)

In case that link doesn't work, here's the first picture hosted on Tinypic:
http://i41.tinypic.com/2h84wid.jpg

This is what the top of a coilover *should* look like. The upper perch is separate from the mount. Most coilovers have pillow ball joints in the upper mounts.

I bought an OEM-style set of Koni yellows, and used them with Ground Control sleeves and stock upper mounts. The front Konis are probably trashed; when I raise the front of the car and take the wheels off, I can see shock oil dripping out of the tops. The shock shafts may be bent and/or the internal shim stacks and valves may be destroyed. The most likely cause is the lack of articulation in the stock upper mounts.

Don't do it that way.

If you could rig a real upper perch on top of a Koni yellow, and then bolt it up to a Tein pillow ball mount, that might work. But the Koni yellows, plus the Ground Control kit (sleeves + perches + springs) cost me as much as a set of Stance GR+ Pro coilovers. The amount of frustration that I went through just to put the front shocks together wasn't worth any possible cost savings or performance improvement vs. a set of pre-assembled coilovers.


Would the spring seperator/perch( between spring and tender-spring) work as a torrington bearing? or I would still need them? Put tender spring above the main spring? and torrington bearing below everything? or?

I would say that torrington bearings aren't required, but they will probably reduce squeaking and they will make the springs behave better.

The upper perches in the eBay auction you linked to are functionally identical to the perches that came with my Ground Control kit. They *might* work if you could secure them to the shock shafts properly (which I wasn't able to do with my setup). You don't want the upper perches to move around on the shaft at all.

Helper/tender springs are supposed to collapse as soon as any force is placed on them. Their only purpose is to keep the (main) springs in contact with the spring perches, so the springs don't bounce loose from the perches if the suspension is unloaded (for example, if the car gets airborne).

Have= 9k/7k stance springs in 7inch and front tein camber plates.
Need= shocks, housings, misc (bushings, torrington bearings etc), and coilover kit/upper spring perches, and rear top hats.

I missed the bit about camber plates for some reason. The Teins are fine but you still need some real upper perches, like the Vorshlags that OptionZero recommends in the first post.

Honestly, I would either copy OptionZero's setup as closely as possible... or just buy some coilovers. The only thing I didn't like about my Stances was that even at the max safe height, they were too low for me, considering the roads in my area.

Something else I have realized about suspensions: Don't assume that stiff springs and/or low ride height will cause an improvement in handling. If you want your car to feel planted through corners or while drifting, you should probably look at anti-roll bars (sway bars) and shocks first.

You can use the OEM-style Koni yellows with stock springs. You'll have 4x4 fitment, but your car will ride better than it would with the stock KYB GR2 shocks. However, the Konis don't come with lower spring perches like the GR2s do; you have to cut apart the stock shocks and shove the Konis into them. If you fabricate stuff on a regular basis this would probably not be a big deal for you, but it was a pain in the ass for me. Oh, and the rear OEM-style Konis can't be adjusted while they are installed on a car. Again, either go big (OptionZero setup, Koni double-adjustables with the correct upper perches and mounts) or go cheap and get Stances or something. The middle ground isn't worth the hassle or the perceived cost savings.

[koukimatt]

koukimatt,

I just emailed GC too. This is exactly what I've been waiting for. An off-the-shelf tuned coilover set-up from a top manufacturer with Koni's that isn't too expensive. I hope they get back to me soon and also hope some of the second party aftermarket parts vendors can carry these at a slightly lower price.

FWIW I never got a reply to my email or the voicemail I left for them.

I would be happy if they would simply list which shocks they were selling with the kit, and if they had more pictures of the tops of each coilover, so I could verify that they were built with real, separate upper spring perches and pillow ball mounts.

[NINJASPY]

I already have a set of megan streets. Too much rebound at low speeds and not enough dampening at high speed.
I got them used, and for temporary setup, don't flame please... I KNOW they suck.
I have stock front sway bar and no rear(base model), I have stock rear one, but have not installed it yet.

I am just confused in the names, I will just call them upper spring mount/perch and upper shock mount :)

I still don't understand why I NEED "real" upper spring perches.
Do the upper spring perches look ok on the ebay link? All I need is some space for some movement/articulation? and make sure they centered on the shaft?

Middle ground not worth the hassle? to me its worth it, my megans suck... really bad.
heres my calculations so far--
have-
90= tien camber plates
70= stance 9k/7k springs(can replace later)
need-
100= ebay coilover kit, has sleeves, tendersprings and upper spring perches
800=8610 insert x4
600=housings front and rear
50-100=misc bearings, bushings, etc
~100= rear pillowball top mounts

I am looking at ~1800ish after its said and done.

much further than the 2400+ people spend to do it "right" with 8611's
I don't want to deal with the dual adjustable shocks, I don't have data logging or the cash to use them fully.
I also don't want to use the yellows, no external adjustment in the back and the front does not have much shock travel on lowered car.

I have only ridden in 240sx's with my megans or my friends tien he's which are better than the megans, but still left me wanting more. I've never ridden on stance, but all the koni's setups I have ever ridden on were ALWAYS great or good(both comfort and handling), never bad or ok. The megans are ok at best.

[crashjust4kix]

You can't use 861x series struts with the stock strut housing. Those require a gland nut up top, and I believe are too big of a diameter for the stock housing.

(I know this is an old ? but I wanted to clarify)

Actually, it's possible but far from ideal. I had to do that recently when we were in a time crunch to get on the track,and couldn't fab a whole set of housings in time. you only gain roughly 1/2" of bump travel over stock I believe, the tire clearance is far from great, and no off-the-shelf gland nuts are cut in a thread that will work with a stock housing i.d.- something needs to be made. However, if you're realy hurting for cash and can make some of your own parts, they will fit and work pretty well if you don't go too low.

Just thought I'd throw the info out there.

[Def]

(I know this is an old ? but I wanted to clarify)

Actually, it's possible but far from ideal. I had to do that recently when we were in a time crunch to get on the track,and couldn't fab a whole set of housings in time. you only gain roughly 1/2" of bump travel over stock I believe, the tire clearance is far from great, and no off-the-shelf gland nuts are cut in a thread that will work with a stock housing i.d.- something needs to be made. However, if you're realy hurting for cash and can make some of your own parts, they will fit and work pretty well if you don't go too low.

Just thought I'd throw the info out there.

Do they fit in the stock strut tube? I never tried(haven't had set of stock struts for a LONG time). Good to hear they can work. You could always get an off the shelf pipe die and bushing, but those are usually a bit pricey in that size, and pretty heavy.

[Def]

I already have a set of megan streets. Too much rebound at low speeds and not enough dampening at high speed.
I got them used, and for temporary setup, don't flame please... I KNOW they suck.
I have stock front sway bar and no rear(base model), I have stock rear one, but have not installed it yet.

I am just confused in the names, I will just call them upper spring mount/perch and upper shock mount :)

I still don't understand why I NEED "real" upper spring perches.
Do the upper spring perches look ok on the ebay link? All I need is some space for some movement/articulation? and make sure they centered on the shaft?

Middle ground not worth the hassle? to me its worth it, my megans suck... really bad.
heres my calculations so far--
have-
90= tien camber plates
70= stance 9k/7k springs(can replace later)
need-
100= ebay coilover kit, has sleeves, tendersprings and upper spring perches
800=8610 insert x4
600=housings front and rear
50-100=misc bearings, bushings, etc
~100= rear pillowball top mounts

I am looking at ~1800ish after its said and done.

much further than the 2400+ people spend to do it "right" with 8611's
I don't want to deal with the dual adjustable shocks, I don't have data logging or the cash to use them fully.
I also don't want to use the yellows, no external adjustment in the back and the front does not have much shock travel on lowered car.

I have only ridden in 240sx's with my megans or my friends tien he's which are better than the megans, but still left me wanting more. I've never ridden on stance, but all the koni's setups I have ever ridden on were ALWAYS great or good(both comfort and handling), never bad or ok. The megans are ok at best.

9/7 kg/mm springs are pretty damn stiff - I'd say that's the absolute limit of what works on street tires on an S Chassis. I have 9.2/6.6 kg/mm springs for reference.

Deluboz(or whatever it is) front camber plates work just fine. I'm currently running them. Also some eBay plates from I think the same guy that were only advertised for a Z32(exact same bolt pattern/everything). They're just a piece of aluminum, some studs, and a cheap spherical bearing that shouldn't be rotating if you setup the rest of the stuff correctly. If you're trying to make things rotate at the spherical bearing you're doing it wrong - end of story.

[crashjust4kix]

Do they fit in the stock strut tube? I never tried(haven't had set of stock struts for a LONG time). Good to hear they can work. You could always get an off the shelf pipe die and bushing, but those are usually a bit pricey in that size, and pretty heavy.

yeah, we tried a 1.25" npt but the threads in the tube would cut the wall too thin. it has to be an oddball thread size to fit while still having enough thread depth to make me feel ok with it's ability to hold. the m48 nut from koni was too shallow, and the m50 would cut too deep. the insert fits well though, needed a bit of aluminum shim to be snug at the bottom. if one were using the off-the-shelf GC sleeve and short spring (basicly build it and set it up as if it were a regular yellow) it would still be a huge leap above a lot of other options.

[Homer_Simpson]

yeah, we tried a 1.25" npt but the threads in the tube would cut the wall too thin. it has to be an oddball thread size to fit while still having enough thread depth to make me feel ok with it's ability to hold. the m48 nut from koni was too shallow, and the m50 would cut too deep. the insert fits well though, needed a bit of aluminum shim to be snug at the bottom. if one were using the off-the-shelf GC sleeve and short spring (basicly build it and set it up as if it were a regular yellow) it would still be a huge leap above a lot of other options.
You can also try welding on the threaded portion with the matching gland nut off some OEM strut tube like those that came from MR2.

[hendeeze]

any idea where to source a vorshlag piece now without the camber plate?

[Homer_Simpson]

any idea where to source a vorshlag piece now without the camber plate?
They're not available separately anymore according to Vorshlag. Seems like Vorshlag decided that it was too great of proprietary piece to be sold separately to us mere commoners *sarcasm*

Manonegra, time to cash in man. Make these top-hats and I'll even send some money in advance.

[SoSideways]

You can also try welding on the threaded portion with the matching gland nut off some OEM strut tube like those that came from MR2.

Oh?

Do tell! haha

[Homer_Simpson]

Oh?

Do tell! haha
The MR2 and some other cars (IIRC Toyotas and Volvos) has serviceable OEM struts with a removable gland nut to hold the internals in the strut tube.

While I was searching for a way to simply hold the 8611-1257 inside a strut tube I found that a lot of people are actually doing this.

They would cut the threaded portion with the gland nut off the MR2 strut tube, measure and modify their own strut tube to fit the 8611, then weld on the threaded section to hold the Koni insert in place.

It sounds a bit convoluted but in the hands of a competent welder I'm sure it will beat the hell out of buying the pipe threading tool money wise.

[SoSideways]

Ah...

I've seen it done on AE86s and stuff.

Might as well cut off the brackets that mounts to the knuckles and move those up as high as you'd like so for the really low guys they still have suspension travel.

[Homer_Simpson]

Ah...

I've seen it done on AE86s and stuff.

Might as well cut off the brackets that mounts to the knuckles and move those up as high as you'd like so for the really low guys they still have suspension travel.

I would rather section the strut tube below the mounting bracket to drop the strut lower. I know sectioning strut tubes are frowned upon by some but to me its a simpler path to approach the "not slammed enough" problem.

Oh yeah, hello fellow NRR member :D.

[crashjust4kix]

Ah...

I've seen it done on AE86s and stuff.

Might as well cut off the brackets that mounts to the knuckles and move those up as high as you'd like so for the really low guys they still have suspension travel.


That is actually an idea we considered, since the stockers only usually use one bead around the bottom that is easy enough to grind away. this would also let you use a thicker wall tube that would be great for an m48 gland nut. However, the problem you run into is that the stock lower brackets leave you iffy room for tire-to-perch clearance. it wouldn't be impossible, but you'd have to mess with it a bit. you could always use shorter springs, but then you're juggling bump travel and coil bind. I've been playing with numbers a lot recently, and while I think it could be done it would need to be just right. it's on my to-try list though, so if I can get one together I'll post an update.

[codyace]

I'll do some digging around tonight, but I have a set of Vorshlag Hats on my 8611 setup, that I sourced from a BMW place out in CA. I can't recall the name now.

However TechnoToys Tuning (t3) offers a nice caster camber plate, as well as a 2.5" ID swivle hat now for springs...may be worth checking out as it's considerably cheaper than the vorslahgs...

[SoSideways]

I would rather section the strut tube below the mounting bracket to drop the strut lower. I know sectioning strut tubes are frowned upon by some but to me its a simpler path to approach the "not slammed enough" problem.

Oh yeah, hello fellow NRR member :D.

That is actually an idea we considered, since the stockers only usually use one bead around the bottom that is easy enough to grind away. this would also let you use a thicker wall tube that would be great for an m48 gland nut. However, the problem you run into is that the stock lower brackets leave you iffy room for tire-to-perch clearance. it wouldn't be impossible, but you'd have to mess with it a bit. you could always use shorter springs, but then you're juggling bump travel and coil bind. I've been playing with numbers a lot recently, and while I think it could be done it would need to be just right. it's on my to-try list though, so if I can get one together I'll post an update.

That is a lot of work just to try and save some bucks, and even then, if you have to machine parts and use other lower brackets and stuff, then it might be worth the price that Richard is asking for his housings, as they come complete with gland nuts and everything, and not for a ridiculous price either.

That way everything can be put together like on the OP and you'll be driving in less than 2 hours, and 2 hours is really taking your time to put everything together and bolting them onto the car haha

[crashjust4kix]

Yeah, I firmly agree that richard's housings are worth every penny. I was working with a 4 day deadline and was lucky enough to have a machine shop at my disposal. personally, I think richard's setup is the way to go, but if you are really scraping by, taking some measurements and hand-picking parts to reuse your stockers doesn't cost that much. I think it gets financially lpointless at cutting the lower bracket off and such tho, unless you already have access to a mill/welder/lathe . just stuffing them in stockers ends up with a guesstimated 1/2" gain in bump travel (not enough, I know, but you don't LOSE any at least), and otherwise worked well. again, so far from ideal but the old school yellow/gc setup served a lot of people well for a long time despite the drawbacks, so effectively duplicating that arrangement with a superior and cost effective dampener, imho, is much more productive that either staying stock, or buying taiwan brand coilovers. and I figure you can always just pull them out and swap your inserts and gc bits to a set of richard's housings later as money allows, too. again, not ideal, but if you're desperate....

[corbin]

What is the cheapest GC setup possible with new struts? Will it work to just buy the GC coilover conversion kit and KYB GR-2's, no other parts required? It would be great for those of us with no money to be able to spend $600 on a system that can easily be upgraded to top of the line Konis.

The idea would be to upgrade later to Koni's, but I guess this isn't possible since the GC kit would fit the different diameter of the shock.

[koukimatt]

What is the cheapest GC setup possible with new struts? Will it work to just buy the GC coilover conversion kit and KYB GR-2's, no other parts required? It would be great for those of us with no money to be able to spend $600 on a system that can easily be upgraded to top of the line Konis.

The idea would be to upgrade later to Koni's, but I guess this isn't possible since the GC kit would fit the different diameter of the shock.

I had GR2s on my car when I first lowered it. The shocks were toast within a few weeks. I don't think GR2s like to be lowered.

[SoSideways]

GR2s are stock replacements, which means valved for stock spring rates.

Lowering your car will probably cause it to bottom out internally when you hit bumps with the soft spring rates from the lowering springs, thus killing them in no time.

KYB GR2s sucked even with Tanabe GF210 springs.

So yeah, I do not recommend GR2s to anyone unless they're literally replacing blown stock struts/shocks and is still running stock springs.

[corbin]

GR2s are stock replacements, which means valved for stock spring rates.

Lowering your car will probably cause it to bottom out internally when you hit bumps with the soft spring rates from the lowering springs, thus killing them in no time.

KYB GR2s sucked even with Tanabe GF210 springs.

So yeah, I do not recommend GR2s to anyone unless they're literally replacing blown stock struts/shocks and is still running stock springs.

What about Koni yellows? Just the Koni's plus the $400 GC kit and I'm good to go?

[Silverbullet]

you forgot camber plates. The Koni yellow sport shocks are inserts for the fronts. You will need your OEM McPherson housings. The rears are bolt ons.

[corbin]

you forgot camber plates. The Koni yellow sport shocks are inserts for the fronts. You will need your OEM McPherson housings. The rears are bolt ons.

So I don't even need the GC kit?

Just lowering springs, Koni yellows, and camber plates?

[SoSideways]

So I don't even need the GC kit?

Just lowering springs, Koni yellows, and camber plates?

IIRC the fronts require you to cut the spring perch off of the OEM struts to get the guts out of the front strut tubes, in which case, you'd have to either weld on a sort of spring perch for some springs, or you can go with the GC style coilover sleeves for some adjustments.

Personally, I'd save up some money and hit up ebay for the circle track discards for the sleeves and stuff, since an adjustable ride height would be a good thing to have.