Eliminating understeer?

[kapower]

I took my car out to another auto X this last weekend, and was finally able to read the cones good enough to really drive the **** out of my car. I have soo much understeer, that I was scrubing a lot of time off of each run. I will not have my aftermarket springs and struts for a couple of months, so with my stock suspension I have tons of body roll, Is there any way that I can adjust the air pressure in my tires to eliminate some understeer, (max psi is 44psi and I was running an even 37 psi on all 4) Also any tips on cheap mods or driving technic's to avoid understeer would be apriciated. Thank's in advance.

[RBS14]

First of all, running 30 psi all around will help that a lot. Secondly loading up the front susp. via heel toeing helps a lot too. besides that, you will have to do the rest with susp. More Negative camber is always a good thing.

-Scott
(Juan Garamonde)

[kapower]

I have been seriously concidering some negative camber up front. with all of my body roll, and suspension travel my camber is very inconsistant. Would it be a good idea to do a DIY camber job? I know a thing or two about working on cars but very little about the fine art of alignments. I figure I could just count the threads to evenly adjust both sides, but how many threads is the question.(I dont even know what part adjusts my camber) I dont know if I want 1.5 or 1 degrees of negative camber (up front) I dont want to wear the inside of my tires out to fast. How much camber can I get away with.

[MrMigs]

i know that for the front, camber isn't adjustable... at least not stock. You have to get either some camber adjustment bolts or adjustable upper mounts.

For the rears, i can't remember off the top of my head.

[RBS14]

1.5 is still within stock specs i believe. 1.5 degrees isn't much at all. That won't wear out your tires too fast.

[Dousan_PG]

CAMBER DOES NOT KILL TIRES!
toe kills tires!


camber and caster DOES NOT






YES camber is adjustable at stock suspension
go to alignment shop so they can get it JUST right


hmm as far as understeering. maybe your weight transfer sucks and you're putting a lot of weight on the front? might work on that.

[AKADriver]

Stock front suspension comes with no built in camber adjustment unless you have an early '89 model (built before 2/89 IIRC). But any S13 can 'upgrade' to the adjustable early '89 upper strut bolt. Part number 56127-50A00.

Camber plates/pillowball mounts work better if you want to play with camber settings. If you want to "set it and forget it" then the '89 bolt works fine.

For S14s you can get a similar bolt, dunno the part number.

[SHINCHU]

so if i happen to find an older 240 in the junk yard, what part am i looking for to get that bolt? the whole pillow mount?
im sure i could grab a couple from the yards here in SD. sounds like a good way to get a bit more negative camber on my 92.
even though i just put some 16" SSR mesh with kumho ecsta supra 712 205/55/16 now it seems to have tremendous grip, like rbs14 said, more negative camber is always a good thing. = )

[AKADriver]

The upper of the two bolts at the BOTTOM of the strut, where it bolts to the knuckle. I should've been more clear, "upper strut bolt" is misleading.

It's not something I'd make a special trip to the junkyard for, you can probably get them new from the dealer for less than 5 bucks.

[SHINCHU]

oh i get it now. on the bottom. yeah i was going to grind that hole so it was slotted, so i could make camber changes. but that would make the strut lean closer to my tire... er vice-versa. no good since i need as much room as possible for my adjustable springs going on tomarrow. i guess im stuck getting adjustable pillow mounts. heheh.

[DamnedButDetermined]

Originally posted by dousan36
CAMBER DOES NOT KILL TIRES!
toe kills tires!


camber and caster DOES NOT




I would like to hear why you don't think camber kills tires! If you have negative or positive camber then there is more weight on either the outside or the inside of the tire, correct? If that is the case then the weighted side will have more friction with the ground and will wear out fasat the the unweighted side. You are completely correct about the toe killing tires way faster than camber but -/+ camber will also eat up tires.

[Bbandit]

Originally posted by dousan36


hmm as far as understeering. maybe your weight transfer sucks and you're putting a lot of weight on the front? might work on that.

i have to agree with dousan
if you learn to transfer your weight correctly.. there souldn't be any understeer at all
i have a stock 240sx and i autoX.. i hardly ever get any understeer..
keep your nose up when you turn
brake BEFORE you turn
dont brake while you turn

[Dousan_PG]

Originally posted by DamnedButDetermined
I would like to hear why you don't think camber kills tires! If you have negative or positive camber then there is more weight on either the outside or the inside of the tire, correct? If that is the case then the weighted side will have more friction with the ground and will wear out fasat the the unweighted side. You are completely correct about the toe killing tires way faster than camber but -/+ camber will also eat up tires.


FACT:
i run -3.5 degrees camber, no toe, no caster, for 3 months, tires were PERFECT NORMAL WEAR!!!!!! (driftingpanda, itsybitsy and Adey can vouch this). the tires had no abnormal wear on the inside or anything beyond regular usage!!!

PERFECT normal wear on these tires (FM901s 205/55/15)

now previously to that i ran a steady -1.5 on various tires and this was BEFORE track time and drifting. a good solid 6 months. the tires had NO abnormal tire wear or anything out of the usual tires (when i got them rotated)


FACT:
alex chang runs a -2 or so year round and he has absolutely no abnormal tire wear!


camber does not kill tires!

see people SAY it does because:

they adjust their camber
BUT dont realize that when you change camber YOU CHANGE TOE!

adding more camber will give toe in (iirc)

i tested thsi myself w/ my car's rear suspension as well.
anytime you change your car's camber you ARE changing its toe
that's why pepole have this idea "oh camber kills tires, i add 2 more degrees and my tires wear improperly!" its because they didnt get the toe fixed when they changed the camber!!!!!

[AceInHole]

heh... my rear camber is at -2.5, front at -1.5, and i'm getting pretty even wear I think. A decent bit of oversteer too.

[sykikchimp]

you can have too much camber.. too much camber can reduce total available traction. You should only use enough camber so that your tires contact patch is completely in use while cornering. The only reason static camber is needed at all is because of inertial forces causing some +camber to be added during cornering. Rember your car naturally has some Dynamic (-) camber added when load is applied to the suspension.

That said, I run -2 up front, and -1 in the back, and will probably be upping my rear camber to 1.5 to 2 for future events. Many tires (especially high performance tires) require a certain amount of camber to heat up properly.

Camber DOES wear tires. just not nearly as much as toe. Look at any set of R-compounds that have been run 4-5 events with -3 to -4 degrees of camber. The effects of camber are much mroe noticable with softer compound tires.

As for getting the stock suspension to work for you, there are a few things you can do just with tire pressure that can help you.

If car feels sluggish, increase pressure. Only increase until car feels crisp and no more.

Oversteer, reduce rear pressures, or raise fronts
understeer (you) Raise rear pressures, and/or lower fronts. (be careful lowering front, as this may ake turn in sluggish, and make understeer even MORE prominent.)

I run Kumhos, and have had good luck on the stock suspension with 37psi hot front and 40-41psi hot rear. makes the car much more neutral

Just tweek till you find what you like. always remember when tuning suspension.. Harder = LESS TRACTION Softer = MORE TRACTION

[DuffMan]

Originally posted by dousan36
hmm as far as understeering. maybe your weight transfer sucks and you're putting a lot of weight on the front? might work on that.

putting more weight on the front alone would cause oversteer not understeer.

Of course if you are on the brakes hard, you will understeer but thats not because of weight transfer.

[Dousan_PG]

Originally posted by sykikchimp
you can have too much camber.. too much camber can reduce total available traction.

Camber DOES wear tires. just not nearly as much as toe. Look at any set of R-compounds that have been run 4-5 events with -3 to -4 degrees of camber. The effects of camber are much mroe noticable with softer compound tires.


i just reply two points
excellent advice btw!


yeah, too much camber SUUCKS
think this:
rain, a lot of camber, smaller contact patch, braking distances greatly increase

yeah -4 and up i've found wear much quicker, but not horribly quick. i have -3.5 front and -4 back
soon to be -3 front and -3.5 rear.

yeah w/ that much camber and a soft tire, it will wear fast
but for the average guy out there, -2 wont kill tires any faster then -1. most people hardly track or go out regularly to notice any effect. of course a good alignment shop can make sure you are not going to wear your tire prematurely due to bad alignment.


i suggest -1.5 front -1 back for the average joe. good response, solid in corners.

anywyas. excellent points, Sykikchimp!

[PAnut240]

I also aggree. Too much camber can be a bad thing, especially in the rain. Trust me I know this first hand. For the average driver I would go 1 to at the most 4 up front. Thats at the most. For the back 2.5 to 3.5 is fairly decent. Personally, I normally run 7 up front and 5 in the rear. A bit much but works perfectly for my type of driving, especially on the rough roads I have in my area. If I'm at the track I drop the front down to around 4. I can't really adjust the back yet. Haven't gotten my camber plates for them yet. and being I'm dropped fairly low( and I don't want to rais it back up) not much I can do about it.
Later

[Dousan_PG]

how do you get 7 and 4 w/o camber plates??
adjustable lower control arms (drooooooll)

[sykikchimp]

7 degrees of front camber do nothing for your handling, and would be dangerous as hell on rough roads. Car would be twitchy as hell, and would have greatly reduced braking power.

no idea what kind of roads would EVER need that much camber....

and like dousan said.. there is NO WAY you could have that much camber without camber plates.

either your a moron, or BSing

[kapower]

last time out at the track I was concentrating on braking hard, you can pull more G's braking than exelerating. I was going into the corners to hot and the front was just sliding out. Next time I'am going to enter the corners a bit slower, and try to pick up speed at the apex of the corner. I just want to reduce understeer so I could carry more speed into the corners. I will experiment with tire pressure, adjust my camber, and work on my driving skills. I actually have a 89 240, hopefully I have that bolt to ajdust my camber. (How can I find out what the build date is on my car?) Thank's to everyone for responding to my post. :)

[datkwikracer]

(How can I find out what the build date is on my car?) Thank's to everyone for responding to my post.

im pretty sure that on the driver side door, well not the door but..., just sit in the drivers side open the door turn to the left and back then down a li'l and there'll be a white sticker that says the build month/year, weight, vin # a bar code and other stuff.

At least thats where it is on my '92. hope i explained that well and that it helps.

[kapower]

thanks, My car was made on 88/12, so I lucked out. Negative camber is now only a paycheck away.

[DamnedButDetermined]

Originally posted by kapower
last time out at the track I was concentrating on braking hard, you can pull more G's braking than exelerating.


In a straight line acceleratory G forces and decceleratory forces will be the same. G's are G's so as long as you stay in the (i think it is called) traction circle of the tire then you will have grip.

I read this in "drive to win" by the same author who wrote "tune to win" and a few other to win books. Very knowledgeable person.

[sykikchimp]

Originally posted by DamnedButDetermined
In a straight line acceleratory G forces and decceleratory forces will be the same. G's are G's so as long as you stay in the (i think it is called) traction circle of the tire then you will have grip.


Friction circle, traction circle.. all the same thing. either way, a tire only has so much grip available in any one direction.

edit.. a diagram:

http://www.getfaster.com/BIS/Techtipdata/circle.gif

[AKADriver]

The circle may well not be circular for a particular car/tire, though, and you may have more ultimate braking grip than accelerating grip.

[DamnedButDetermined]

all things being equal though the traction circle will be a circle

[PAnut240]

I do have camber plates in the front. The back is just the way it ended up after I lowered the car. Most cars will add neg camber when you drop them if you don't have correction bolts and or camber plates to correct for the difference in travel.
Also, like I said before, I my camber is a bit much but
IS PERFECT FOR MY STYLE OF DRIVING!! and I wouldn't reccomend many people to try use that much.
and as for your comment skychimp about my stearing. It is very sensitive. But good for me. Its all up to the driver to what they like don't you agree.
Brakeing hasn't really been too much of an issue, its about the same as before I got my rims and tires. That and Cali roads suck for brakeing anyway I've found. Too much oil on them. Thats just my opnion.
Jim

[adey]

-7 degrees? .... let's see some photos! Until then, I'm calling BS! :confused:

[PAnut240]

OK, I'll get them up here as soon as I get them again. I would rignt now but since I'm in another country than my digital camera is we'll have to wait.

[Dousan_PG]

i call BS
this is -4
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid55/p8e5237554eac89eab90b35f1f2c01a98/fc7a5dbc.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid55/p28339057263f708fc2840efd7a1f08de/fc7a5969.jpg


-7 is almost DOUBLE that! are you SURE about that? want to reconsider your -7 statement while you can?

i've seen -7ish (maybe more) on a hachiroku (fronts) and its plain stupid. the patch is ridiculous, might as well get bike tires for that contact patch. its a JOKE and plain stupid. dont tell me its used for drift because all drifting i read in japan is NO MORE then -4. most s13s are -2 and -1 approximately (some -3 and -2)

[sykikchimp]

sure suspension should be setup for the driver.. but not beyond the limitations of what makes the car handle well.

-7 has NO positive effects on you car. period. none. nada. And it can actually cause premature failure, and wear of other componants on your car. As a matter of fact, lowering the s-chassis too far can also cause premature failure of items like toe links, subframe bushings, and even the driveshaft.

Remember the S-chassis's rear multi-link suspension has quite a bit of dynamic camber and toe changes. if you have -7 (front or rear) during a corner it would be closer to -9 or -10 :eek:

cliffs notes:
your setup is not safe
causes premature wear on vehicle
greatly reduced road holding ability

[johnadams]

So i have a s14. Right now i have 0 toe up front a 0 toe in the rear. Now i believe i have less than -1 camber both up front and rear.

Dousan36 said "1.5 front and 1 back"

Now is this with zero toe both front and back?

Because i am going to buy some new tires and i just had my camber and toe ajusted so i dont eat up my tires. I seem to wear out my tires in about a year, approx 12,000 miles a year on a H rated tire.
I like to take turns very fast. and once in a while ill go drifting but i stoped that a month ago when i saw that my tires were bald.

What i would like to know is, in ur opinions (who ever that maybe), what would be the best camber set up for me? for a h rated tire and a z rated tire.
Thanks

[Dousan_PG]

cant help much. my tires dont last more then 3 months if they are on the front, 1 if back er...

id say -1.5 front and -1 back. or so...should be fine. i'd do it.

[adey]

Haha on the note of negative camber, one of the recent (march?) issues of BM or YV has a photo of a chuki 180sx with about -20 degrees of camber... it's ****ing hilarious!! I'll try to scan it for you guys. :)
It was an article going through the basics of suspension geometry, and basically, they had some photos of exaggerated setups to emphasize (and make clear) what each thing (caster, camber, toe, etc) was. Good article... if I could read it. :(

[Dousan_PG]

Originally posted by adey
Haha on the note of negative camber, one of the recent (march?) issues of BM or YV has a photo of a chuki 180sx with about -20 degrees of camber... it's ****ing hilarious!! I'll try to scan it for you guys. :)
It was an article going through the basics of suspension geometry, and basically, they had some photos of exaggerated setups to emphasize (and make clear) what each thing (caster, camber, toe, etc) was. Good article... if I could read it. :(

yeah i saw that one. yellow chuuki s13
so nice

but yeah i wish i could read it haha..seemed to have GREAT info :( DAMN!

adey, dont u know any japanese girls who can translate for us?!

[adey]

Haha, I have one friend who reads some japanese, but I've had her try to translate articles before, and her Japanese isn't good enough for that... esp. for all the technical stuff in these mags.

On another note, my mom speaks, reads and writes japanese... buuuuuuuuut we won't go there! hahahahaha

[PAnut240]

I'm telling you its neg 7. Thats what it sais right there on my adjuster plates. And my rears look like the pic dousan36 put up! Except my rear tires sit about another inch or so into the wheel well. Now I am done fighting this, take it as you may, As soon as I get my pictures I'll post them so you can see yourselves. OK!? Fine.
Later
Jim

[Dousan_PG]

how does it say 7?? are you counting the dashes? that's NOT how many degrees. at full "positive" its still -1.5 on mine

you cant get more then -4 or -5 depending how low you are w/ camber plates.


did you get an alignment to verify this?

[adey]

I believe my camber plates (JIC magic) max out at about -4.5 or -5 degrees... I'm running -3 right now. I'm preeeettttyyy sure you need adjustable front lower control arms to dial in -7 degrees! But we'll see when you get your pics up. :cool:

[BlitzSilvia]

camber in the rain....

a few months ago I was installing some coilovers on my friends CRX and I was trying to explain to him how the huge camber change is gonna affect his braking ability, and he seemed to get the jist of it.....

three days later, while its storming outside I get a phone call from him asking if I can pick him up. Turns out he locked his tires up and slid into some buick.

Can't say I didn't warn him :rolleyes:

[UCC0279]

Duh, PAnut240.

the dial on your adj camber plate does not equal to degree!!


I pretty much max out my Cusco, I bet it is only about 2-3 degree of negative.....

That dial is only for reference, you always need a tool to measure.

Well, for the fact adjust camber plate alone can not give you that much negative camber.