Subframe question*need help on ridding of clunk in rear

[s14vagabond]

hi i have a clunking problem in my car whenever i shift at low rpms/low gears as well as when i let go off the accel,
the sound mostly comes from the rear and from what i have SEARCHED, it is either my tranny/diff oil or the subframe bushing being shot.
From my search, it seems like i need to get spacers or a new bushing, but heard bushing is the groupthink way to go?


now while i was searching many people didnt conclude into one solution, which made it very hard for me to get and so far people said aluminium SPL spacers, nismo subframe bushings, urethane, pineapple,bushing w/collars, inserts,polyurethane bushings......DO these actually remove the clunk and what are the differences between collars, spacers, and inserts?

i could care less about more more road noise, i just hate that CLUNK while i daily drive.... i want smooth shifting without having to keep in mind that i have to drive past 3k to avoid that clunk.

quote from hipposleek:1) it only happens in lower gears (1-2);
2) you can avoid it by shifting smoother; and
3) it can also be induced by a quick tap on the gas (lunge - clunk)

but in total from HOURS of search it seems like SPL spacers/inserts? are the best bet, but i would like to ask zilvia if they differ or if they reccomend Parts shop max spacers(as its local for me)

Just want to confirm things from the search, and get rid of this problem, thanks

[rb25crazy]

o wow i got the same thing lmk if u find the solution! it only happens in the low gear as well like 1 or 2. some days it's not even there and then others it is. but, i noticed that when the car gets driven for a little bit the clunk goes away for the most part very faint if anything.

[icedsole]

i believe the noise is due to shot subframe bushings, my car used to do that.
i got pbm subframe spacers (im sure any other brand would be fine) and it
cured the noise. they also make the cars handling a lot better.

[TravisSW]

aluminum would just increase noise btw

[lflkajfj12123]

aluminum would just increase noise btw

and then you would never have to replace some crappy bushing again

seems like a fair trade off

[garagelu]

I had the same problem a couple months ago. I decided to buy some spl parts subframe spacers and cured the problem. Now my car rides better than it ever has. I am so happy.

[silvia-84]

i had the same thing a while back. i found out the rubber in the tranny mount broke.

[s14vagabond]

so.....how would u choose if it were between SPL and PBM

also what do u guys think of whiteline pineapple or energy suspension bushing?

[sonomadrifter]

I would imagine there is little to no difference between PBM and SPL (both great companies from what I have heard) and honestly price or a deal would make me choose one over the other.

The difference between getting the poly bushings and over just the PBM or SPL (or any other brand for that matter) is the work involved. To replace the bushing requires the subframe to be dropped completely and cut/burn out the shot OEM bushings and press the new polys in.

The collars require only the subframe to be dropped just enough to slide the collars in on top and bottom. Not always will the collars completely solve the subframe slapping you are hearing (if indeed this is your problem) and because of it some will say its not a permanent fix. What I cannot speak on is the quality or characteristics of the poly bushings because I do not run any on my car.

Back to your issue, I would imagine the subframe bushings or your front diff. bushings are causing the noise. I replaced both when I had the issue because I could see the bad diff bushings but when dropping the subframe those bushings were just about falling out on there own. At 2am my only option was collars from a buddy (jorge1190 and Rnz520) and have been using them sense. I still have a small amount of noise because I don't beleive the collars completely solved the issue.

Good luck with your fix and thank you for searching atleast somewhat.

[clark]

purchase these. in my personal opinion, the BEST way to go if you're looking for smooth shifting and don't mind some vibration AND daily driving.

don't get aluminum solid unless you race. you say you don't care now, but you will.

Energy Suspension Subframe Pineapple Bushing : S13/14 89-98 240SX (http://www.phase2motortrend.com/ensusupibus1.html)

http://us.st12.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/phase2motorsports_2049_242455490

^-- i installed these 2 weekends ago and have been ranting and raving and preaching about them on here.

[TravisSW]

and then you would never have to replace some crappy bushing again

seems like a fair trade off


wouldn't it be just as bumpy and a non-smooth ride for DD'ing though?

[lazysk8er2]

no because now the space is filled

[s14vagabond]

so out of all the things, the pineapple inserts are the best to go with out of reading everything? does everyone agree or differ?

[S14DB]

For street/DD use I would go with the Prothane's.
http://www.pdm-racing.com/products/imag/ESuspension_RSB_web.jpg

Pineapples are to angle your subframe.

[s14vagabond]

what is the pineapple bushing made out of??
Looking at this thread, it seems many people went with the nismo bushing?
http://zilvia.net/f/tech-talk/242619-suspension-bushings.html


quote from ixfxi: a friend and i were talking the other day about how non-compliant the polyurethane bushings are, and how they restrict full suspension travel due to their lack of flexability like you would find in a normal bushing.

that alone is reason enough why ive been going away from polyurethane.

also from sykikchimp:The problem with the poly bushings is that poly doesn't have the ability to flex around an axis like rubber or spherical bearings would. SO, wwhen the LCA moves through it's arc, the bushing resist's the motion up and down b/c it is clamped, and held in place b/w the mounting points. Thus causing the T/C rod mount to bind on the LCA, and eventually rip free. Unless the poly bushing can rotate on the metal insert it will cause this problem, no matter who makes it.

I've read that drilling the holes in it like a revolver allows the bushing to flex much better, and makes them safer, but if the mount is still clamping on the edges of the bushing, you'll still get binding. I would think drilling them would also lessen their effectiveness of maintaining suspension geometry under load, but probably not enough to matter.

Something else to help prevent this is to make sure you really lube up the metal insert before you put it inside the bushings. Like lots, and lots of grease. Poly has to be able to move freely.

Either way you go there are pro's and cons.

This is the reason Nismo uses hard rubber bushings instead of poly. Rubber allows axial twist.

Originally Posted by redline racer510 http://zilvia.net/f/images/zilvia/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://zilvia.net/f/tech-talk/242619-suspension-bushings.html#post2667183)
why should a good car squeak?
exactly because you settle for less, i am not worried about the price of nismo bushings just wondering if its worth the price or am i just replacing with near o.e. bushings
i told you

ES bushings require constant greasing. your car WILL squeek. so skip that shit and just do the nismo ones, you wont regret it


ES pineapple bushing or Nismo BUSHINGS? which ones zilvia.....i need people that have tested both, etc. or very knowledgable in as i just have a search button

[JRas]

don't get inserts

screw those half ass pineapples

either replace the bushings with solids ( if noise isn't a problem ) or nismo/urethane ( nismo if you can afford it ).

[S14DB]

The subframe bushings don't rotate or move. They just isolate the subframe from the body for N/H/V.

[s14vagabond]

from search i just found, It really depends what kind of car (http://zilvia.net/f/#) you are building. I persoanlly am going with all Nismo bushings, for two reasons. The first being I'm trying to build a streetable car that I can take girls in and Daily drive (http://zilvia.net/f/#) if I ever need to and poly bushings are horrible for ride quality. They will increase panel rattle/squeek, decrease ride quality/comfort, increase road noise, and be harder on your frame/suspension components. Nismo's units are just a harder rubber, I think like 30% harder than stock, which will give a tighter feel but leave the car bearable on rough roads. The other reason is Nismo's bushings are waranteed by Nissan, I dont have to worry about some odd fitment problem or them somehow causing damage or excessive wear to any other components of my driveline/frame. If I was building a track car it would be a different story, which is why I say it's up to you to decide how much comfort you are willing to give up for performance.

i guess nismo bushing it is??? ill have martin install it at PSM hopefully.....lol

[aznpoopy]

all those bushing material threads are fairly irrelevant. they are about poly bushings in suspension arms causing bind/stiction = making your suspension not work so good = harsh squeaky ride.

poly in subframe is a different story. your subframe is not supposed to move. therefore, it will not make your ride harsher... it'll just make it a tiny bit noisier. in other words, this is one instance where poly is actually a good choice for bushing material.

if you're deadset on subframe bushing replacement route, ES bushings (not inserts) are the way to go. (see post #10 above) they are stupid easy to install because they retain the stock metal bushing collar. for any other kind of bushing replacement you have to cut and beat those out; which is a pain in the ass. that removal process invariably mangles the subframe a good bit.

for these, you just burn out the old bushing and hammer out the inner metal rings.
http://www.energysuspension.com/pdf_instruc/17486.PDF

added bonus: they are cheap as hell. like $60 a set. helluva lot cheaper than nismo ($175-$200 iirc).

if you want to DIY and get it done in like, 30 minutes, just get the subframe spacers, call it a day.

[rb25crazy]

haha damn, that's one labor intensive fix just for a few bushings =( i guess collars it is =D

[White Comet]

don't get inserts

screw those half ass pineapples

either replace the bushings with solids ( if noise isn't a problem ) or nismo/urethane ( nismo if you can afford it ).
how are the pineapple bushings half assed? it completely replaces the old bushing

[JayDee M Rolly]

wouldn't it be just as bumpy and a non-smooth ride for DD'ing though?
i have the pbm collars travis, its fine. our roads arent that bad anyway.

[aznpoopy]

how are the pineapple bushings half assed? it completely replaces the old bushing

it's misnamed. i don't know why phase2 calls the es bushings pineapples. should just call them straight up bushings.

actual pineapples are basically insert spacers that look like pineapple slices (hence the name), and are therefore indeed slightly half-ass.

[White Comet]

oh i c, yeah i can see the pineapple rings being halfassed, but i have the ES bushings. i can't wait to drive the car, but i think i'll be pleased. i like your avatar btw

[Supra989]

SPL!!! close thread!!!

That is all you need to know i have them i love them and i wouldnt use anything else but them!

ill even give you the link! SPL PARTS (http://www.splparts.com/main4/index.htm)

[soreballz]

^Ignorance!!! Closed mind!!!

There are other options, ya know! That's what we're discussing here!

EXCLAMATION POINTS!!!

[S14DB]

it's misnamed. i don't know why phase2 calls the es bushings pineapples. should just call them straight up bushings.

actual pineapples are basically insert spacers that look like pineapple slices (hence the name), and are therefore indeed slightly half-ass.

http://www.pdm-racing.com/products/imag/KCA349closeup.jpg

Like I said before Pineapples were designed to move the mounting point of the subframe. They are not really designed to fill in the subframe like collars or inserts.

[dued]

I recently had my subframe bushing replaced with aluminum solids from 240sx motoring. The bushings transfer more vibration in the cabin, but they won't ever have to be replaced again.

I had a shop up here in Vista CA replace them, PM me if you want info.

[Pandapants]

I have the same problem. When I jack up the car and remove the wheel, you can literally see the deteriorated subframe bushing. Im going to replace them with spl solids. I don't see how collars will fix the problem. don't they just change the stance of the subframe? and the pineapple inserts(not the bushings) would be pointless b/c you have no bushing to insert them into. so it would be like having a half ass bushing again.
just get some new subframe bushings. solid or urethane or whatever. you decide its your car and you're doing the labor.

[s14vagabond]

Quote:
Originally Posted by R240NA
And FYI, collars will work on a car with completely torn apart bushings, the object here is to lock the subframe to the chassis. Bushing condition doesn't matter at that point.

quote from nrg: the collar will work. but with a torn bushing, it will still have the clucking sound. I know because i finially figured out where my clucking sound was coming from.
with a torn bushing, it gives the subframe play. even with the whole thing torqued down, the bolt is only holding down the center coller piece. the outside coller of the subframe has play. this is where the clunk comes from.



k im having a hard time putting it all into one piece as there is so many options but im guessing so far
for bushing replacements: Nismo(hard rubber) or ES bushings(urethane)
and for collars/inserts- PBM or SPL(both alumnium)

If labor and price wasnt a question, what is the best? I dont want to buy collars/inserts and install it to find out it doesnt work as my bushings suck..
if so i would like to fix the whole thing in one go.
Can someone conclude?
but so far im guessing the ES bushings for the #1 fix right?? and there are no cons to having them in the car?

[xs240]

http://www.pdm-racing.com/products/imag/KCA349closeup.jpg

Like I said before Pineapples were designed to move the mounting point of the subframe. They are not really designed to fill in the subframe like collars or inserts.
Completely useless, I had those and they snapped out. They did 'work' however they did for a while though.

Switched to SPL solid subframe bushings and it's a world of difference however my diff around 2-3k rpm is audible from time to time (resonance) but whatever performance = win

[aznpoopy]

k im having a hard time putting it all into one piece as there is so many options but im guessing so far
for bushing replacements: Nismo(hard rubber) or ES bushings(urethane)
and for collars/inserts- PBM or SPL(both alumnium)

options:
ES bushing replacements (polyurethane)
nismo bushing replacements (hard rubber iirc)
ES bushing inserts
SPL aluminum bushing replacements
SPL/PBM/etc. aluminum collars

If labor and price wasnt a question, what is the best? I dont want to buy collars/inserts and install it to find out it doesnt work as my bushings suck..
if so i would like to fix the whole thing in one go.
Can someone conclude?
but so far im guessing the ES bushings for the #1 fix right?? and there are no cons to having them in the car?

#1 depends on what you want.

overall - es bushings are the best IMO, in terms of cost (very cheap), adequacy of the repair (actually replaces torn bushing) and ease of install (no need to remove metal collar - but you do have to drop the subframe). con is poly is harder than hard rubber, so you will have more in cabin noise relative to nismos.

streetability - nismo bushings. since they are hard rubber they will soak up vibration/noise better than the polys. downside is they are much more expensive, and install is much more involved since you do have to remove the original bushing collar.

performance - aluminum, as it has zero play. also never needs to be replaced, since its um, a block of aluminum. downside is alot of noise/vibration will be transferred into the cabin. install is same shit as the nismo bushings.

ease of install - collars are the best. no need to drop the subframe. unbolt it a little, let it slide down a bit, slip the collars on and bolt it back together. takes like 20 minutes.

[s14vagabond]

options:
ES bushing replacements (polyurethane)
nismo bushing replacements (hard rubber iirc)
ES bushing inserts
SPL aluminum bushing replacements
SPL/PBM/etc. aluminum collars



#1 depends on what you want.

overall - es bushings are the best IMO, in terms of cost (very cheap), adequacy of the repair (actually replaces torn bushing) and ease of install (no need to remove metal collar - but you do have to drop the subframe). con is poly is harder than hard rubber, so you will have more in cabin noise relative to nismos.

streetability - nismo bushings. since they are hard rubber they will soak up vibration/noise better than the polys. downside is they are much more expensive, and install is much more involved since you do have to remove the original bushing collar.

performance - aluminum, as it has zero play. also never needs to be replaced, since its um, a block of aluminum. downside is alot of noise/vibration will be transferred into the cabin. install is same shit as the nismo bushings.

ease of install - collars are the best. no need to drop the subframe. unbolt it a little, let it slide down a bit, slip the collars on and bolt it back together. takes like 20 minutes.

thanks aznpoopy, i will prob have to remakesure what i want in the ride, but overall very informative.
Maybe mods should sticky this in FAQ so people know as its a common prob on our s chassis?
THank everyone!

[Bigsyke]

carefull doing any of these, because I easily snapped a stud installing the collars. I tried to retorque one of the other studs months later due to clunking, and as I was reaching 60lbs of torque, it seemed the stud started twisting as if it were about to snap.

The snapped stud was rusted through, i imaging the others could be the same.

Snapping a stud is one of the worst things you can do, its easier to buy a new chassis at that point

[Nissan87]

options:
ES bushing replacements (polyurethane)
nismo bushing replacements (hard rubber iirc)
ES bushing inserts
SPL aluminum bushing replacements
SPL/PBM/etc. aluminum collars



#1 depends on what you want.

overall - es bushings are the best IMO, in terms of cost (very cheap), adequacy of the repair (actually replaces torn bushing) and ease of install (no need to remove metal collar - but you do have to drop the subframe). con is poly is harder than hard rubber, so you will have more in cabin noise relative to nismos.

streetability - nismo bushings. since they are hard rubber they will soak up vibration/noise better than the polys. downside is they are much more expensive, and install is much more involved since you do have to remove the original bushing collar.

performance - aluminum, as it has zero play. also never needs to be replaced, since its um, a block of aluminum. downside is alot of noise/vibration will be transferred into the cabin. install is same shit as the nismo bushings.

ease of install - collars are the best. no need to drop the subframe. unbolt it a little, let it slide down a bit, slip the collars on and bolt it back together. takes like 20 minutes.


Noob question: Do all 3 types require greasing?

[aznpoopy]

greasing only applies to suspension parts that actually need to move (i.e. pivot)

that's the direct opposite of what you're trying to accomplish with stiff subframe bushings.

in short, nope

[clark]

greasing only applies to suspension parts that actually need to move (i.e. pivot)

that's the direct opposite of what you're trying to accomplish with stiff subframe bushings.

in short, nope

you can grease the bushing a little to get it in there, kinda like astroglide and anal, except with bushings, you don't have to finger it to loosen her up.

[enkei2k]

as far as the SPL solid aluminum bushings and differential bushings go, can i use both those sets ALONG with the ES master bushing kit? or are both the SPL solid aluminums combined sort of like a 'master kit' already?

reason i ask is because the ES master kit is supposed to replace all the bushings except for sub frame i believe. i want solid aluminum so i don't have to worry about it.

[aznpoopy]

i have a 240sx ES master bushing set. it does not include subframe or differential bushings.

i don't see any reason why you couldn't have aluminum for your diff/subframe and poly in your suspension arms. although i would recommend against it, especially for NYC.

[enkei2k]

i have a 240sx ES master bushing set. it does not include subframe or differential bushings.

i don't see any reason why you couldn't have aluminum for your diff/subframe and poly in your suspension arms. although i would recommend against it, especially for NYC.

why would you recommend against it? i know NYC roads suck bad (i curbed the hell outta my rims already), roads are dirty and they would probably require constant cleaning/greasing. what would you recommend then? go with nismo rubber? i need to replace my bushings all around and i'd appreciate any other recommendations thanks.

[blitzsti22]

i have the same problem as the op.does anyone know a shop around socal that can replace the subframe bushings?

[EDT007]

For streetability I've heard alot of good things about the nismo's but I'm having a hard time finding them. From my understanding they have been discontinued (according to mynismo dot com). Does anyone know where to get them?

[aznpoopy]

why would you recommend against it? i know NYC roads suck bad (i curbed the hell outta my rims already), roads are dirty and they would probably require constant cleaning/greasing. what would you recommend then? go with nismo rubber? i need to replace my bushings all around and i'd appreciate any other recommendations thanks.

just to clarify, the diff and subframe bushings will *never* require greasing or re-greasing, even if you get polyurethane. (your es bushings in your suspension will, however)

that being said, i've had aluminum differential bushings before. drivetrain and transmission make a ton of noise. it's bad enough in jersey. nyc roads are worse so you may really want to consider something that soaks up the noise a little better.

[Bigsyke]

What I wanna see is someone who has welded their subframe to the frame.

[extremegraphics]

oh man is hard to decided , i have the same problem , im going with poly that is cheaper. anyone knows the part number and if any extra parts that i need to get with the kit? or where is cheaper to buy them

[Shadowhunter]

What I did: Ebay CNC aluminum bushings $70 bucks just put em in yesterday and bolted to subframe perfectly. Energy Suspension replacement Diff mounts $20. $90 bucks to replace all the bushings on the subframe is a good deal. Now you just have to decide wether or not you can install them or have a shop do it for you. Collars are the weaksauce,just a band-aid on a hatchet wound. SPL bushings are over priced and the same damn thing as the ebay ones, both will last a lifetime.