Turn Signal Rewire

[DaPCWiz]

So, when I got my car painted a few years ago, I had the signal lights filled in on the bumper (s14 zenki) because imo it makes the front end of the car look cleaner.

As a result I needed turn signals, so I decided to throw 921 bulbs into the corner lights (bigger / brighter than stock 194s but same socket) and rewire the light so that they do this:

Turn Signal On + Parking On = Bulb Off
Turn Signal Off + Parking On = Bulb On
Turn Signal On + Parking Off = Bulb On
Turn Signal Off + Parking Off = Bulb Off.

Basically this makes it blink ON during the day, and blink OFF at night.

I hid the stock turn signal bulb behind the bumper, so that I wouldn't have some crazy hyperblink. and did this (as per some directions I found on another forum)

http://www.dapcwiz.com/misc/old_bulb_setup.jpg

This seems to work about 95% of the time, except occasionally, the lights get stuck on or off... or the fuse blows.... esp after jump starting the car they act really wierd.

Now - in my infinite noob-ishnes... I just learned about the wonderful magic of spdt relays - they are so cool! lol.

Anyway, sitting down and staring at photoshop, I worked out a way that I think I can redo my signal light rewire and get rid of my wierd issues 5% of the time.

I'm hoping that someone who is good with wiring and stuff can double check my work and tell me if I'm right / wrong before I actually go out an attempt it.

This is what I'm planning:

http://www.dapcwiz.com/misc/new_bulb_setup.jpg

to explain it more clearly I want the end result to work like this:

day time:
http://www.dapcwiz.com/misc/day_signal.gif

night time:
http://www.dapcwiz.com/misc/night_signal.gif

opinions?

[projectRDM]

There's many ways to do it, but what's easiest is to cut the housing just a bit and fit a dual filament bulb/socket in place and just use the existing wiring, similar to an S13 front signal using an 1157 bulb. I can't remember the bulb size since it's smaller than the 1156/1157 type but they make one that's low profile enough to fit.

[DaPCWiz]

There's many ways to do it, but what's easiest is to cut the housing just a bit and fit a dual filament bulb/socket in place and just use the existing wiring, similar to an S13 front signal using an 1157 bulb. I can't remember the bulb size since it's smaller than the 1156/1157 type but they make one that's low profile enough to fit.

i'm aware of the dual filament option - but just personal taste I'd rather do the rewire for it to blink the way I posted. Just need someone who knows what their doing to check my diagram, lol.

[g6civcx]

Let's do it the right way. Browse this. http://zilvia.net/f/tech-talk/99074-want-my-s14-turn-signal-act-like-s13-turn-signal.html#post911275

You can remove your stock turn signal bulbs completely if you use the aftermarket flasher relay. You can also Google Greg's custom Trick Flasher if you like cool flash rates.


If you really want to build your own relays then I'll look through it for you. Right now buying the magic flasher seems to be the easiest way.

[g6civcx]

Your diagram is incorrect BTW.

[DaPCWiz]

Yeah I've seen the magic flasher before.... but paying $40 for something I could do with $5 worth of relays hardly seems worth it...

good idea on the aftermarket flasher... I'll look into it.

[DaPCWiz]

Your diagram is incorrect BTW.

From the way I see it, the following is the path of electricity in each situation:

http://www.dapcwiz.com/misc/t_off_c_on.jpg

http://www.dapcwiz.com/misc/t_on_c_off.jpg

http://www.dapcwiz.com/misc/t_on_c_on.jpg

Is that wrong?

[g6civcx]

In theory it sounds good, but remember that the switching is not instantaneous. Meaning while the signal is transitioning, you can create a current loop that trips the relay and connects current indefinitely.

If you really want to do a relay let me look at it some more and see what we can do.

[DaPCWiz]

hmmm, yeah don't know enough about this stuff to understand how that loop can be created. I will look into it as well and see what I can learn about it. Maybe the use of diodes going to the bulb can block unwanted current? I don't know anything about diodes tho... lol.

[g6civcx]

hmmm, yeah don't know enough about this stuff to understand how that loop can be created. I will look into it as well and see what I can learn about it. Maybe the use of diodes going to the bulb can block unwanted current? I don't know anything about diodes tho... lol.

Look through this first. He's doing the same thing you want to do: HOW-TO - Modify a 2000-2002 Neon's Side Markers to Blink (http://www.ertyu.org/steven_nikkel/bsm.html)

I'll see if I can simplify his circuit without the use of diodes.

[g6civcx]

Also, when designing circuits it's very important that you look at the signal transition, and not just when the signal is on or off.

The transition is what throws off your design even though it works perfectly if you assume that the signal instantaneously goes from high to low and vice versa.

[DaPCWiz]

Hmm yeah it looks like he's basically trying to do the same thing but going at it slightly differently. I'm not sure I understand why he's connecting the left and right together somehow? I would do them independently...

I did try a quick test of the diagram I drew up in my room...

wired up an led 194 bulb to a computer power supply putting out 12v and two relays.

Relay Test Video (http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/l4Yn-_X9jOZCvgyOvzP8lA)

seems to work... under what condition would it create a loop that would make the relays stick? I tried to flash it fast and slow and everything seems to work... I'm not doubting that its possible... just trying to get a hands on understanding as to how this works...

[g6civcx]

First, you're assuming that the switching speed of the two relays are the same, which would be highly rare. When you turn on both the turn and parking lights, the difference in switching rate will result in current collision at the bulb = blow fuse/bulb.

What's worse is that current will then feedback to pin 30 so even if you turned off one of the signal the other signal will feed current to the relay and keep the relay fully energized.

It's rare but your circuit design is not ideal because you don't take into account switching delay.

[g6civcx]

This way would be impossible to break no matter how you manipulate the control signals. Each signal has its own ground wire and no two hot wires are ever connected to each other.

Connect the bulb(s) to power and the ground side to the circuit.

Good luck. Let me know if you have any questions.

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/7449/bulbtv9.th.jpg (http://img141.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bulbtv9.jpg)

[DaPCWiz]

This way would be impossible to break no matter how you manipulate the control signals. Each signal has its own ground wire and no two hot wires are ever connected to each other.

Connect the bulb(s) to power and the ground side to the circuit.

Good luck. Let me know if you have any questions.

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/7449/bulbtv9.th.jpg (http://img141.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bulbtv9.jpg)

hmmm, I follow your diagram, makes sense. Still trying to completely wrap my head around how this all works, just so I know for future projects.

would placing diodes on the indicated wires solve my problems, or no?

http://www.dapcwiz.com/misc/diodes.jpg

Also... is there a difference running the current from 30 to 87 vs. 87 to 30?

[g6civcx]

would placing diodes on the indicated wires solve my problems, or no?

The diodes will solve the problem of feeding current back to the other control signal; however, you will still have the problem of current collision at the bulb. Not the worst thing the world but not an elegant solution.

When you design this stuff, you have to account for things like the relays failing and sticking open or closed. If you opened the relay and look, you will see what I mean.

With your circuit, I don't like how you could potentially have two hot wires go to one bulb.

is there a difference running the current from 30 to 87 vs. 87 to 30?

Logically, no. In practise, yes. You should put the input at 30 and the output at 87 and 87a. Again, look at the internals of a relay and you'll see how it's designed.


Also, I said this before, and I'll say this again. You have to understand the basic flow of electricity. I posted a massive thread on how electrons are the charge carriers and they're the only ones that flow across the conductor. Negatively charged electrons flow from an area of excess to an area of deficiency.

The positive terminal has a deficiency in electrons, hence the +. The negative terminal has excess electrons, hence the -. When you connect the two, the electrons flow from - to +.

In the US, the nomenclature is to follow the + charge, which is theoretical and is actually caused by the flow of negative electrons. So we're actually following the gap left behind by flowing electrons.

In the rest of the world, they follow the - charge, which can actually by spotted by following ground (excess electrons) all the way back to the power source (deficient in electrons).

I know this is confusing as hell but they label their battery terminals backward.

So you have to be careful when you say "flow" of current. You have to be more specific by saying the flow of + or - charge.

In the US nomenclature we used for the relays, + charge should flow from pin 30 to pin 87 or 87a. It's the same as saying electrons should flow from pin 87/87a to pin 30 in the rest of the world.

[DaPCWiz]

g6civcx - While we are on this thread -

I also have an issue where I put HIDs in my low beams.

By default, the low beam has:

Low+, High+, Ground in the harness.

When you install HIDs, its only +/- so you use Low+ and Ground. Problem with that is that when you flash your high beams, the lows cut out.... not good for the HID ballasts.

Will the following wiring diagram fix it?

http://www.dapcwiz.com/misc/headlight_rewire2.jpg

I tried to use what you talked about when I designed this...

[g6civcx]

This thread keeps crashing my computer. I don't know why. I tried several different computers.

[DaPCWiz]

This thread keeps crashing my computer. I don't know why. I tried several different computers.

That's kinda strange, lol

[g6civcx]

Question: are you using popup? If so what are you doing for high beam? Do you have high beam bulbs at all?


We talked about this problem before. The problem is caused by the way the factory wires the headlight combo switch.

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/1559/lightms4.th.jpg (http://img90.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lightms4.jpg)

When you flip the switch between low beam and high beam, there is a dead zone between A, B, and C where the current is cut off completely from the headlight bulbs.

There is absolutely nothing you can do about the switch without physically modifying the switch.



The diagram you came up with won’t work because the problem is in the switch. When you toggle between low and high, both Low+ and High+ will have no current in the dead zone, and will shut down the bulb.


The easiest solution I can come up with is to use the parking lights to trigger the low beam. So whenever the parking lights are on, the low beam would be on. That would take away your flickering problem.

This solution would render the 2nd position on the switch obsolete, but would take care of the flicker issue.

[DaPCWiz]

Question: are you using popup? If so what are you doing for high beam? Do you have high beam bulbs at all?


We talked about this problem before. The problem is caused by the way the factory wires the headlight combo switch.

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/1559/lightms4.th.jpg (http://img90.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lightms4.jpg)

When you flip the switch between low beam and high beam, there is a dead zone between A, B, and C where the current is cut off completely from the headlight bulbs.

There is absolutely nothing you can do about the switch without physically modifying the switch.



The diagram you came up with won’t work because the problem is in the switch. When you toggle between low and high, both Low+ and High+ will have no current in the dead zone, and will shut down the bulb.


The easiest solution I can come up with is to use the parking lights to trigger the low beam. So whenever the parking lights are on, the low beam would be on. That would take away your flickering problem.

This solution would render the 2nd position on the switch obsolete, but would take care of the flicker issue.

hmmmm. I have an S14, so the high beam is seperate bulb. I like having it setup where the high beams point up and the low beams point down, gives me better lighting when I need the high beams (rare, lol). Also don't want the HIDs to flash when I flash the brights for any reason.

so if I used the parking light + instead of low+, it would eliminate the need for a second relay. hmmmm. I'll think about it. Thanks for the info.

[g6civcx]

Also this thread is not just between me and him. Anyone with useful comments are always welcome.

[g6civcx]

hmmmm. I have an S14, so the high beam is seperate bulb. I like having it setup where the high beams point up and the low beams point down, gives me better lighting when I need the high beams (rare, lol). Also don't want the HIDs to flash when I flash the brights for any reason.

so if I used the parking light + instead of low+, it would eliminate the need for a second relay. hmmmm. I'll think about it. Thanks for the info.

Alright, on S14 it's a little different at the wiring, but the switch still works the same. When you switch from low to high, there is a momentary lag where there is a dead zone and no current is going to any bulb. This lag will cause the low beam to flicker.

The problem is still the switch.

I would just use the low beam to trigger a relay for the ballast. It's the easiest way.

[DaPCWiz]

Alright, on S14 it's a little different at the wiring, but the switch still works the same. When you switch from low to high, there is a momentary lag where there is a dead zone and no current is going to any bulb. This lag will cause the low beam to flicker.

The problem is still the switch.

I would just use the low beam to trigger a relay for the ballast. It's the easiest way.

yeah but the stock setup has a dual filament low beam. Forward on low, wide on high. So the low+ cuts out when u flash high. I might use the parking light, and then throw in an extra switch to cut the low beams in my switchbox. But then I have the problem that the alarm flashes the parking lights.... maybe I'll rewire my alarm to flash the hazards.... lol. So many things to consider.

edit: oooor I could use a relay that kills the low beams when the key is out....!

[g6civcx]

please go to the new thread with the same title i made. this one kept crashing my computer.

[DaPCWiz]

please go to the new thread with the same title i made. this one kept crashing my computer.

For future searches:
http://zilvia.net/f/tech-talk/237324-turn-signal-rewire.html

[M11's]

wheres a thread for the s13 signal rewire

[projectRDM]

wheres a thread for the s13 signal rewire

Why? The S13 signal already is a dual function light.

[xanu8isx]

have you figured out everything about the turn signals? cuz i want to do the same thing with mine on my 15 front but, im not sure how to do it and ive been looking for the diagrams so far ur diagram seems to make more sence then all the others. i have a 13 and do u know if this will work on a 13 even though u have a 14? plz reply

thanks

- will

[anielo]

Hi,
If you know what the wiring is connected to, then this could be a possible solution to your problem.It may seem like a cheap fix for a minor problem, but it could be far more complicated than you know. Just replace the faulty part, with one from a wrecking yard, and see if that solves your problem.

car gadgets (http://www.chinabuye.com/car-accessories/car-gadgets)