stiffing up s-chassis??

[turbo2nr]

i have a 97 s14, 120k on it. the car chassis wise feels loose as s*it. the car just doesnt feel solid anymore, going over bumps and uneven roads everything feels loose and sloopy. i live in nyc and the roads suck that and add coilovers i guess it finally took a tole on my frame.

so what can i do to possibly stiffen back up the car? i was going to start with checking over all the bolts that attach the front/rear subframe to the car. i have nismo mounts and spl collors. i was going to get spl diff bushings because when i let off the cluth the rear chatters, also if i shift hard form first to second ill get wheel hop then the tires just spin.

i was also thinking of a power brace for the front and possibly fender braces i heard that it does wonders..

any suggestions will help. i do not want to cage the car. so that is not an option.

thanks

[mr.jdm]

well from my experience wheel hop is induced by crappy suspension. what kind of coilovers are you running? how many miles are on them? do they need to be rebuilt?
and go with a urethane bushing kit. that will stiffn everything up real nice

[turbo2nr]

sus. setup:
megan streets ~8k on them
sus. sway bars
tien inner/outer tie rods
spl collors
nismo mounts
battle version t/c rods

[mr.jdm]

my guess would be the megans. i know their not the greatest. maybe their worn out? lets see what the others say.

[VQMaxFan]

SFC's
Urethane Bushings
Fender Braces
and so on... theres allot of shit, checking your bushings is a good start though

[murda-c]

replace all your arms with pillowball where you can, get solid steering rack bushings, and whatever's left use polyurethane.

[smelly240]

Luckily you have a 14 and dont have to do the column bushing like on a 13. That shit sucks - even with the motor out...

[silvia13t14]

Your bet would be change the factory bushings most likely worn out and i would change those coils are nt the best HKs 111or sport,apex n1 or jic
The power brace would make the rear too stiff unless your using it for track use
In Ny u need anything suspension thats adjustable cuz of those dam bumps, dips and potholes

[turbo2nr]

i think my dampering on the coils are to soft for the spring i turned them down to 7/5 i think ill raise them back to 17/15.

the power brace is for the front of the car so it would have no effect on the back. i have to jack up the car and see how much the subframe sags, i may have to do soild subframe bushings..

is it worth getting the energy sus. bushing kit? i heard its a pita to install..

[yurisfriendevan]

Also you may just be used to the way the car feels.

[silvia13t14]

i think my dampering on the coils are to soft for the spring i turned them down to 7/5 i think ill raise them back to 17/15.

the power brace is for the front of the car so it would have no effect on the back. i have to jack up the car and see how much the subframe sags, i may have to do soild subframe bushings..

is it worth getting the energy sus. bushing kit? i heard its a pita to install..
yea the power brace wouldnt stiffin the rear but it would stiffin the whole chassis in which it reduces movement to the tension rods when their is for hard conering which is track use and energy bushing give away easily i would say nismo is the way 2 go

[98koukile]

I wouldn't do the energy suspension bushings unless you were going to install grease fittings and cut a channel in them. They bind too easily. Spherical bearings work the best and you can upgrade to z32 rear uprights, i think the megan conversion piece is like $80... barter with them haha. You could do the chassis foam thing seen on FA also

[jspeedm]

if you have a lot of bumps and potholes, then you don't want to make any of the bushings that provide for/aft support(tension rods, traction rods, etc.) too stiff. for those, use urethane bushings.

replace the bushings that provide up/down support(rucas, rear toe rods, upper strut mounts, etc.) with spherical bearings.

in all cases these are good.
-Nismo power brace
-strut tower braces
-trunk brace
-fender brraces

good luck.

[JRas]

steering rack bushings
tension rods
nismo powerbrace
replace suspension bushings
sway bars

[HS13KLS]

hmm..

my car is pretty stiff..

i have a cage. though.
stance coils.
megan tension/rucas (would the crappy rucas be the reason for my wheel hop??)
i have a kaaz 2way.
braces all over.
GET SWAY BARS.
tension rods and sway bars seriously made the biggest difference. I FELT A HUGE change i changed those out


id really suggest just tons of braces. get a c-pillar lol they look cool :P
and the rear strut bar
i have no experience with the nismo power bar..but ive heard good things about it.
and if you dont have AT LEAST subframe inserts DEF. get some

[98koukile]

You can get rid of a bit of that wheel hop with the only rear arm you didn't get... the traction rod

[los_inc]

hit up jonnie fraz he'll tighten your shit up
<3
-los

[Bushido]

shakito plates.

fender braces.

power brace.


if you want to go a level further...


chassis foam.

bolt-in/weld-in roll cage.

stitch welds.

[Bigsyke]

chassis foam in an area with salt (such as ny) is the worst thing you could possibly do. Read up on some old hot rods or european cars that had factory foam. The only rust spots were where the foam was.

[Bushido]

not if you use the right stuff.

there are foams that don't hold moisture.

[DRFT180]

Link? I am starting some research on the chassis foam idea

[ManoNegra]

I wouldn't do the energy suspension bushings unless you were going to install grease fittings and cut a channel in them. They bind too easily. Spherical bearings work the best and you can upgrade to z32 rear uprights, i think the megan conversion piece is like $80... barter with them haha. You could do the chassis foam thing seen on FA also

if you have a lot of bumps and potholes, then you don't want to make any of the bushings that provide for/aft support(tension rods, traction rods, etc.) too stiff. for those, use urethane bushings.

replace the bushings that provide up/down support(rucas, rear toe rods, upper strut mounts, etc.) with spherical bearings.

in all cases these are good.
-Nismo power brace
-strut tower braces
-trunk brace
-fender brraces

good luck.

I've have/had urethane bushings in the suspension
they do stiffen up the car quite a bit
but I don't really like the way the suspension works after
spherical bushings and quality joints is what I plan to do down the line.

[MrFairlady]

Handi-Foam.
Thats the RIGHT STUFF.
$49.88+ ship for a kit to do maybe the rockers and a tad more.

DO NOT USE SPRAY Insulation foam.


Ordering mine this week.Gonna do the rockers and Try to figure out a way to do the Frame rails.Not sure how except drilling holes.

[redsuns3838]

seam welding , since the car is just glued together. But Thats a big commitment timewise so I'd do everything else first.

[BustedS13]

get in
get a boner
drive

[Flicktitty]

/\

LULZ

thats awesome

also bushings

[az_240]

I have all that crap for my kouki and what made the biggest difference was

Coilovers

ES Bushings for EVERYTHING (besides what you replace with pillowballs)

Power Brace

Shakitto Plates/DC front strut bar

Do-Luck Rear Cross Bar


In that order...


I have more but that is what I noticed the most.

[turbo2nr]

thanks for all the info im going to do the power brace, arms , diff bushings, strut bars, and the other bushings.

but if i do all the arms will it not be pointless to get the energy sus. bushing kit as most of the arms will replace the use for bushings?

and the foam seems like a good idea, but how much weight does that add on the car?

[gunluvS14]

not much. Search under my name about chassis stiffening foam.
hint: my write-up/information are not necessary solely in this forum. Use the interweb ;)

[xs240]

Polyurethane bushings suck, I had whiteline ones in all my arms all around, they suck. Get spherical bearings, car feels softer plus no bind now hah.... better response and tightness yet soft not nerv racking.

[SoSideways]

not much. Search under my name about chassis stiffening foam.
hint: my write-up/information are not necessary solely in this forum. Use the interweb ;)

Wasn't it the most searched/viewed article in regards to chassis foaming on the entire interweb? lol

You's a famous person haha

[turbo_dreams]

Gots me a tig welder if you wanna do some stich welding drew.

[turbo2nr]

^ nice good investment deffinatly have to play around with that.

the foam seems to yeild the greatest gains
Chassis stiffening foam result - Part 1, qualitative result*56k no go*: 240SX Technical Forum: Nissan Forums / Infiniti Forums - NICOclub (http://forums.nicoclub.com/zerothread/270721)

i think im going to try it. seems like what i need to fix my problems

[Bigsyke]

^ nice good investment deffinatly have to play around with that.

the foam seems to yeild the greatest gains
Chassis stiffening foam result - Part 1, qualitative result*56k no go*: 240SX Technical Forum: Nissan Forums / Infiniti Forums - NICOclub (http://forums.nicoclub.com/zerothread/270721)

i think im going to try it. seems like what i need to fix my problems


If I could urge you not to, you would save a car.

Pourous or not, once moisture goes either under the paint or rusts away a layer of metal "before" the foam, it just eats right past the foam on all sides. Heavily rusted metal breaks away in layers.

Remember your in NY, heating and expanding from winter days WILL displace the foam and cause you a rusty hellish nightmare.

tx/ca is a different story though

[singlecamslam]

Yeah i agree with the dude above. I wouldnt use it, and stitch welding? If you got the time and patience than go for it. Best you can do is replace the stock bushings and get quality rucas and stuff. That should help a bit.

[Tenchuu]

i recently put in a C pillar brace in my S14, that really gives it a solid feel that it was lacking.

[slider2828]

Miracle X Bar... look it up.... works wonders for rear. do not get copies cause they suck

[Sti_Guy]

get a roll cage, walah stiff enough chasis.front/rear strut barsTHICK(fuck name brand, as long as they are BEEFY, it doesnt matter) suspension parts (tie rods etc.)poly bushings, megan coilovers are good.... Look at all the formula D drivers who use them. Just because it isnt name brand doesnt mean it Cant work just as good.

[brunswick240]

floor board strut bar?

[Koopa Troopa]

i have a 97 s14, 120k on it. the car chassis wise feels loose as s*it. the car just doesnt feel solid anymore, going over bumps and uneven roads everything feels loose and sloopy. i live in nyc and the roads suck that and add coilovers i guess it finally took a tole on my frame.

so what can i do to possibly stiffen back up the car? i was going to start with checking over all the bolts that attach the front/rear subframe to the car. i have nismo mounts and spl collors. i was going to get spl diff bushings because when i let off the cluth the rear chatters, also if i shift hard form first to second ill get wheel hop then the tires just spin.

i was also thinking of a power brace for the front and possibly fender braces i heard that it does wonders..

any suggestions will help. i do not want to cage the car. so that is not an option.

thanks

Your car feels loose and sloppy because your bushings are all worn out. Replace your bushings with poly or spherical ones and then go from there. I'd recommend poly as you seem like one of those "daily driveability" types who would kill themselves if they had to sit in a bucket seat for more than 5 hours.

not if you use the right stuff.

there are foams that don't hold moisture.
It's not the foam that holds moisture. It's the fact that the moisture can't escape because it's trapped by the foam so it eats away at the metal that's not protected cause that spot originally came from the factory as a place that wouldn't be exposed to moisture.

OP, if you foam your car you might as well call your insurance company the next day and have them total the car for you.

[xs240]

Miracle X Bar... look it up.... works wonders for rear. do not get copies cause they suck
500 frickin dollars for bling bling jdm part. What the hell... its great, it works, but damn the price. It should be like 200 bux max.

[Koopa Troopa]

I don't see how it'd be possible to make a miracle cross bar for the S14 as the strut tower bars and the c pillars have a nice layer of sheet metal between them.

[turbo2nr]

i dont mind a stiff car, trust me im not the type to bi*ch if its too stiff..

anywho.. the foam is something i want to do but now this mositure issue worries me, what if i tried to spray inside the pillars first to add a layer between the foam and pillars?

this sucks i just orderd the foam spent $100 bux on this...

[SoSideways]

The pillars should be fine, as I don't see why there would be moisture in your pillars.

Now rocker panels, yeah, I can see where the moisture would come from.

But to be honest, if you plug the holes after you foam your rocker panels, there shouldn't be water/moisture in there anyway.

[Koopa Troopa]

i dont mind a stiff car, trust me im not the type to bi*ch if its too stiff..

anywho.. the foam is something i want to do but now this mositure issue worries me, what if i tried to spray inside the pillars first to add a layer between the foam and pillars?

this sucks i just orderd the foam spent $100 bux on this...

Then why would you completely dismiss the idea of a rollcage? If you want stiff it's the only way to go.

Nissans are prone to rusting as it is. Sell that foam.

[Brian]

God, my new car should be pretty stiff.

I wish I had a Miracle Cross Bar though.

Safety21 7 point
GT Spec tower bars, C pillar bar, trunk bar.
NAMS gacchirri bars

Probably going to add a couple other bars to the cage.

Shit yea

[slider2828]

Yah I would cage the bish.... but still I would get raped in norcal for that by cops. Yes you can make miracle X bars.... But think about it, welding it with QUALITY metal not trash metal is very expensive.... If it flexes, its useless.....

[turbo2nr]

i cannot cage the car as of right now, as for funds is the main issue, when i do a cage i want it done right not a blot on cage, i got estimates of 1200+ for a good cage, so thats not in my buget right now..

as for getting a new car, i cant like i said funds are not their i wish i could afford a 350z but it would be slower then my s14 and not handle as well, not look as good.. blah blah blah

i'm taking my chances with the foam, my car doesn't see moisture i park it in my garage and take other transportation when its nasty outside..

i am looking into fender braces and what not. to help with the chassis stiffing, its so many choices its hard to decide what to get first. im going with power brace and fender brace, then rear arms and diff inserts. along with the poly foam it should help..

[murda-c]

You guys, 240sx are made with DURASTEEL.

we don't need no stinkin cages.

[Brian]

cages are the shit.

You can hold onto them.
Put stickers on them.
Look at them through the window.
etc.

[slider2828]

Not handle as well 350z? Are you smoking crack? Not as fast? Another hit on the crack pipe? Come on now.... 240s are not that good in handling when it comes to newer cars..

[turbo2nr]

im faster then a 350z i have several 350z that will account for this. stock for stock, no 240sx will not out handle a 350z, a modified 240sx will imo.

[slider2828]

Dude are you freaking talking about drag racing or on the track.... Overall performance of a 350z > 240 that requires turning. lol

[xs240]

My 240 is faster than a 350z, m3, stock evo and many other cars hehehe :) Stock 240sx suck though. Fun beginner car but suck when you wana drive hard... track, daily, etc... You guys underestimate our cars... I guess there's a reason. Most people use 'drift' and 'jdm' parts to look baller rather than do their research to make the car stop, corner, grip, acelerate tractiveley better. It's not very hard, just people have made up ideas in their mind about our cars (being drift cars only for example).

For example look at how you guys said get polyurethane bushings, yet it's not actually a good idea to improve the car's overall flaws.

Also our cars are not as easy to drive as some cars out there, however that does NOT make them slower, just means you as a driver are slower. That is all.

I'll post track videos in the summer... then again there's plenty out there if you youtube/google for them.

Racepar1 on here can probably own most zilvian cars on track, yet all he has is a KA24DE. So could nikeyboy555... keeping up with turbo 911s, including a GT3 (still get owned in straight line but still catch up in corners thats impressive). He too has a stock KA24DE with boltons.

Check on youtube. This should all tell you something.

[bejota180sx]

and how do you know those gt3 are being driven right?
not saying those guys don't cause at least racepar1 i know does but... how do we know those gt3 and 911s and blah blah blah so on and on are being driven? it's not only the car it's the driver included...

again not telling them they can't do it, just take that factor into consideration

[Bigsyke]

It's not the foam that holds moisture. It's the fact that the moisture can't escape because it's trapped by the foam so it eats away at the metal that's not protected cause that spot originally came from the factory as a place that wouldn't be exposed to moisture.

OP, if you foam your car you might as well call your insurance company the next day and have them total the car for you.


Nissans are prone to rusting as it is. Sell that foam.

This is the truth

[slider2828]

OMG people are just crazy... you guys are comparing to mostly stock 350z's... You are like comparing apples and oranges.... modified 350z vs. your modified bla.... come on please.... twin turbo 350s with a bunch of suspension your telling me you guys on the track can take it out? Please.....

[rb25_s13*CHUKI]

OMG people are just crazy... you guys are comparing to mostly stock 350z's... You are like comparing apples and oranges.... modified 350z vs. your modified bla.... come on please.... twin turbo 350s with a bunch of suspension your telling me you guys on the track can take it out? Please.....

Yes we are...

[blownmotor]

The S-Chassis was made until 2002. Our cars can still hold it's own against many others even till today. Doesn't that already mean something? Nissan kept that same suspension design for so long means they're either too lazy to change or they have something that was very well proven. Being that our cars are old doesn't mean it can't be competetie still. I think our cars are very easy to drive compared to others that rely mostly on traction control and yaw sensors and etc. We don't really have those luxuries. Probably ABS at best. Look at most modern sports cars on the market today. Lightest one would be what the MRS or S2000? Come on S2000 weigh about as mush if not more than our cars.

Get back to the subject, stitch welding the seams is good but puts a hard ride quality. Question is how far do YOU want to go as to making it stiffer. Chassis development take a long time and a lot of knowledge. If you get a chance, look up the OPERA S2000 build. It ran Tsukuba under a minute with a mostly stock engine.

[Koopa Troopa]

1)i cannot cage the car as of right now, as for funds is the main issue, when i do a cage i want it done right not a blot on cage, i got estimates of 1200+ for a good cage, so thats not in my buget right now..

2)i'm taking my chances with the foam, my car doesn't see moisture i park it in my garage and take other transportation when its nasty outside..

1) Nothing wrong with a bolt in cage if installed correctly. Save your money.
2) Congratulations, you've just contributed to the murder of what was a clean looking S14. Unless you vacuum seal it and never remove it then it will see moisture.

My 240 is faster than a 350z, m3, stock evo and many other cars hehehe :) Stock 240sx suck though. Fun beginner car but suck when you wana drive hard... track, daily, etc... You guys underestimate our cars... I guess there's a reason. Most people use 'drift' and 'jdm' parts to look baller rather than do their research to make the car stop, corner, grip, acelerate tractiveley better. It's not very hard, just people have made up ideas in their mind about our cars (being drift cars only for example).

For example look at how you guys said get polyurethane bushings, yet it's not actually a good idea to improve the car's overall flaws.

Also our cars are not as easy to drive as some cars out there, however that does NOT make them slower, just means you as a driver are slower. That is all.

I'll post track videos in the summer... then again there's plenty out there if you youtube/google for them.

Racepar1 on here can probably own most zilvian cars on track, yet all he has is a KA24DE. So could nikeyboy555... keeping up with turbo 911s, including a GT3 (still get owned in straight line but still catch up in corners thats impressive). He too has a stock KA24DE with boltons.

Check on youtube. This should all tell you something.

You've just lost all credibility.

How would there not be any improvements to the car's overall handling and feel by replacing 13 year old worn out bushings with poly or fuck, new OEM bushings?

S chassis cars are known in Japan to be sucker cars cause they really don't require any talent to drive. Turbo and RWD with MacPhereson strut front and multi link rear. How does a car like that take talent to be fast in?

I've run down Skyline GTSTs in my 550 Alto Works and I've run down Type R RA WRX Imprezas in my Civic. Doesn't mean anything. Dudes prolly let off.

[turbo2nr]

before people get all ancy about the rust you should really read the third page of the link i posted. it states

If water, or water moisture can enter the "cavity" between the foam and metal, it should able to evapourate out also via natural convection. In the other word, if it can goes in, it can comes out.

2nd, supposely there are not going to have any cavity between the foam and the metal.

And this foam doesn't trap water moisture, or it doesn't absorb water moisture. Its closed cell foam, and absorbsivity was mentioned by Neo.

This is from US composities site, it is not the exact type of foam as Handifoam industry, they share similar construction and mechancial properties, so it should clear up the water absorption concern.
Quote:
This foam has been tested in accodance with US Coast Guard Regulation # 33 CFR 183.114 . This foam is approximately 95-98% closed cell which resists absorbing water, however continuous water submersion can eventually lead to loss of buoyancy over a period of years.


I don't think any of us going to completely submerge our car underwater right? i hope not

2parts foam are good stuff, fun to play with, and pretty tough stuff too.

Our SAE Mini baja team is using 2 parts foam to make floatation device to support the entire car.


clearly the foam doesnt absorve water, there will be no jackets for water to be caught and if their is it will have a way to evaporate.

i also pmmed the guy that did this on his car, he has no problem with it for over 2 years now, he lives in GA...

ill take my chances my s-chassis will survive lol

[xs240]

You've just lost all credibility.
Heh, thanks.


How would there not be any improvements to the car's overall handling and feel by replacing 13 year old worn out bushings with poly or fuck, new OEM bushings?
I didn't say leaving worn 13 year old worn bushings is the solution, I stated polyurethane is not the solution. People buy what they hear advertised or hear from some place they have no idea what lays behind it from a performance stand point.

Polyurethane bushings will cause more binding which will not help an already shity suspension design with too many bushings. It'll make the ride rougher, 'tighter' feeling but rougher and binded like fuck. Amongst many other undesirable conditions. This is beyond most people. There will be little to no articulation. The high sticktion of polyurethane bushings will cause unbelivable harshness. It's pure garbage and marketting ploy and people run down to it for that STIFF FEEL with not knowing fuck about what they are doing.

Just as people go out buying jdm brand coilovers, or taiwanese/chinese coilovers for 'tight' feel, with heavy spring rates, only to realize the ride sucks ass and the job that the dampers are suppose to be doing is not being performed hence the car remaining shitty in grip and just good for drifting.

The car will run shittier, rougher and probably slower with jarring roughness over every irregularity and once again shitty binding that you don't want happening any further..

Either go OEM bushings or spherical bearings.

S chassis cars are known in Japan to be sucker cars cause they really don't require any talent to drive. Turbo and RWD with MacPhereson strut front and multi link rear. How does a car like that take talent to be fast in?
I think you are mistaken as to what talent is. S chassis cars are not 'easy' to drive compared to an evo or m3 or rx7 fd3s, amongst many other cars with beter chassis and beter suspension designs from the get go. S13s are twitchy cars with poor feel compared to more modern cars such an s2000.

At the limit they are not for the average joe, cause the average joe will assume he is going fast, but will not realize there is more juice left in the car. He will feel out of control with too much nervousness, sensitivity, etc... and not be able to cope with it... being passed by stock evos, gtrs, s2000s, etc... never quite reaching the full potential of a full track prepped 240sx.

That is why cars like an evo or the new skyline gtr are easy to drive and every other average joe can go 'fast' with them, and not get into constantly twitchy situations of a highly prepped 240sx car that is mad fast but not as 'easy' to drive. Watch any serious s chassis car with a GOOD driver and you'll see. Heck even look at the JIC S15 car and how much effort is needed to properly drive that thing, but it beat an evo and set the record on the track. Pretty impressive... but you my friend undoubtedly wouldn't drive one as hard as it was driven.

And drifting is what this car is easy for. Drifting is not high performance driving... it is show, yes it requires skill, but it is show, not road racing, competitive, timed racing where cars are put head to head to see which is the fastest.. not which is the prettiest.


I've run down Skyline GTSTs in my 550 Alto Works and I've run down Type R RA WRX Imprezas in my Civic. Doesn't mean anything. Dudes prolly let off.Wow good for you. I can run down alot of people in both of my family cars, give yourself a tap on your back.

[xs240]

FYI: so you don't rip on me any further as if i don't know what I'm talking about and lose 'any credibility' left... here's some people who know what they're talking about when it comes to real high performance tuning and not jdm drifting common-sense methodology that most s chassis owners are used to in general:

ELEPHANT RACING Tech Topic, Polyurethane Bushings and Friction (http://www.elephantracing.com/techtopic/polyurethanefriction.htm)

http://www.elephantracing.com/techtopic/binding.htm

http://www.elephantracing.com/techtopic/suspensiondeformation.htm

I went from polyurethane whiteline bushings to spherical bearings. Every arm and uprights fyi. It's a world of difference, performance-wise and harshness wise. I would NEVER recommend polyurethane for anybody, especially on our cars which come with so many stupid bushings.

It's also a misconception that a stiffer CHASSIS is going to result in a harsher ride. It's quite the opposite actually, increasing the natural frequency of the chassis will result in less creaks, noises, cracks and harshness overall... allowing you to run higher spring rates equivalently not giving as much harshness, creaks, cracks, etc... It's exceedingly high spring rates amongst many other things on light cars like ours or pretzle stiff chassis's that cause undesirable harshness and actually undermine overall performance... A stronger stiffer chassis will improve overall feel, responsivness and decrease harshness, creaks, etc... amongst many other benefits... allowing the dampers and the suspension to do it's job better.

As most would say it's impossible to make a chassis too stiff. Maybe the suspension oh yes, but not the chassis. We WANT the chassis to be stiff in a performance car especially... the reason most cars have crumble zones etc... is because of safety not performance!

http://sportcompactcar.automotive.com/46826/0006scc-project-nissan-300zx-part-5/index.html

There's a part on foam filling right there and guess what it talks about!

[Bigsyke]

before people get all ancy about the rust you should really read the third page of the link i posted. it states



clearly the foam doesnt absorve water, there will be no jackets for water to be caught and if their is it will have a way to evaporate.

i also pmmed the guy that did this on his car, he has no problem with it for over 2 years now, he lives in GA...

ill take my chances my s-chassis will survive lol

Usually I wouldnt invoice the truth, however you have an S14.

Bye bye car if you DARE use the foam. Next winter blocks of sheetmetal will be flaking off like dandruff.

The guy is in GA not NY!

And about poly;

It depends on which bushings. The FLCA bushings should use Poly, since they only really need to move on 1 axis. If those are binding then your Strut rods are binding as well, which means your FLCA ball joint is gone.

Sway bar bushings, endlinks, and any other arm that only moves in 1 axis is totally fine.

[Koopa Troopa]

Heh, thanks.

I didn't say leaving worn 13 year old worn bushings is the solution, I stated polyurethane is not the solution. People buy what they hear advertised or hear from some place they have no idea what lays behind it from a performance stand point.Funny, as the "articles" you linked were just ads to make you want to buy their PolyBronze bushings.

Polyurethane bushings will cause more binding which will not help an already shity suspension design with too many bushings. It'll make the ride rougher, 'tighter' feeling but rougher and binded like fuck. Amongst many other undesirable conditions. This is beyond most people. There will be little to no articulation. The high sticktion of polyurethane bushings will cause unbelivable harshness. It's pure garbage and marketting ploy and people run down to it for that STIFF FEEL with not knowing fuck about what they are doing.

Just as people go out buying jdm brand coilovers, or taiwanese/chinese coilovers for 'tight' feel, with heavy spring rates, only to realize the ride sucks ass and the job that the dampers are suppose to be doing is not being performed hence the car remaining shitty in grip and just good for drifting.I have JDM brand coilovers and Suspension Techniques poly bushings. I am not experiencing "unbelievable" harshness, squeaks or bindings you would have me believe to be occurring. My dampers are great feeling and do not have inadequate valving for the spring rates.


I think you are mistaken as to what talent is. S chassis cars are not 'easy' to drive compared to an evo or m3 or rx7 fd3s, amongst many other cars with beter chassis and beter suspension designs from the get go. S13s are twitchy cars with poor feel compared to more modern cars such an s2000.

At the limit they are not for the average joe, cause the average joe will assume he is going fast, but will not realize there is more juice left in the car. He will feel out of control with too much nervousness, sensitivity, etc... and not be able to cope with it... being passed by stock evos, gtrs, s2000s, etc... never quite reaching the full potential of a full track prepped 240sx.I'd hope the average Joe was getting passed by stock Evos, GTRs and S2ks. Not to mention the reasons of those cars being faster on the track is they were designed for that. The (R)S13s were not and major improvements weren't made till the S15 however the S14 chassis is lightyears ahead of the (R)S13s

That is why cars like an evo or the new skyline gtr are easy to drive and every other average joe can go 'fast' with them, and not get into constantly twitchy situations of a highly prepped 240sx car that is mad fast but not as 'easy' to drive. Watch any serious s chassis car with a GOOD driver and you'll see. Heck even look at the JIC S15 car and how much effort is needed to properly drive that thing, but it beat an evo and set the record on the track. Pretty impressive... but you my friend undoubtedly wouldn't drive one as hard as it was driven.No, cars like the EVO and new Skyline GTR are easy to drive because they have electronic aids and AWD.

And drifting is what this car is easy for. Drifting is not high performance driving... it is show, yes it requires skill, but it is show, not road racing, competitive, timed racing where cars are put head to head to see which is the fastest.. not which is the prettiest.I'm not into drifting however you're an ignorant jackass if you say it's not high performance driving. Gymkhana, a timed, competitive race where drivers are pretty much required to negotiate the course via controlled oversteer.

Wow good for you. I can run down alot of people in both of my family cars, give yourself a tap on your back.Why would you boast your friend's accomplishments and then shoot mine down? Guess my driving doesn't count since it wasn't done at the race track. I'm sorry. I don't know shit about nothing nor do I know how to drive a car since I don't drive on race tracks. Get over yourself and off Racepar1's nuts.

[xs240]

http://images.google.ca/url?source=imgres&ct=tbn&q=http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1402/822327651_1efebd248a.jpg&usg=AFQjCNFVCsS-NXqc8ufiamEMatDk669irA

[kingkilburn]

Damn, this place is to hostile.

If you are getting moisture in your rocker panels or frame rails you will rust whether you have foam in there or not. I would(and plan to) stitch weld the chassis, ensure that the rockers and frame rails are sealed, then foam it.If you want to go over board with it you could shoot some paint in there too.

I would also go for a road racing style(versus a roll bar or drag cage) cage as well.

[jspeedm]

it's impossible to make a chassis too stiff. Maybe the suspension oh yes, but not the chassis. We WANT the chassis to be stiff in a performance car especially... the reason most cars have crumble zones etc... is because of safety not performance!!

I have to say, this was well put.

[Bigsyke]

Damn, this place is to hostile.

If you are getting moisture in your rocker panels or frame rails you will rust whether you have foam in there or not. I would(and plan to) stitch weld the chassis, ensure that the rockers and frame rails are sealed, then foam it.If you want to go over board with it you could shoot some paint in there too.

I would also go for a road racing style(versus a roll bar or drag cage) cage as well.


This locks in moisture.

The rockers should not be filled.

[SoSideways]

And about poly;

It depends on which bushings. The FLCA bushings should use Poly, since they only really need to move on 1 axis. If those are binding then your Strut rods are binding as well, which means your FLCA ball joint is gone.

Sway bar bushings, endlinks, and any other arm that only moves in 1 axis is totally fine.

It does not move in just 1 axis.

On the 240s, the FLCA is also attached to the T/C rods, which are a fixed length whether you have adjustable or stock style ones. When the suspension compresses, the T/C rod will move along with the FLCA to control caster.

If your car is low, your FLCA will probably be pointed up, and by that point, when the suspension compresses, the T/C arm will swing up with the FLCA, which causes more positive caster as it moves up.

That translates to the FLCA moving forward as it's going up. That isn't 1 axis anymore, that's 2.

This locks in moisture.

The rockers should not be filled.

Your logic makes no sense.

If rocker panels aren't supposed to be filled in and they still rust, what is the matter with filling them in with CLOSED CELL FOAM that isn't supposed to trap moisture?

Even if it did get some moisture in there, the moisture will just evaporate like it would normally do in a non-foamed panel.

This isn't your every day foam, this stuff was designed as a structural foam that will expand and not bubble up, and when it hardens it becomes like cement. It is not like a sponge.

[Bigsyke]

It does not move in just 1 axis.

On the 240s, the FLCA is also attached to the T/C rods, which are a fixed length whether you have adjustable or stock style ones. When the suspension compresses, the T/C rod will move along with the FLCA to control caster.

If your car is low, your FLCA will probably be pointed up, and by that point, when the suspension compresses, the T/C arm will swing up with the FLCA, which causes more positive caster as it moves up.

That translates to the FLCA moving forward as it's going up. That isn't 1 axis anymore, that's 2.



Your logic makes no sense.

If rocker panels aren't supposed to be filled in and they still rust, what is the matter with filling them in with CLOSED CELL FOAM that isn't supposed to trap moisture?

Even if it did get some moisture in there, the moisture will just evaporate like it would normally do in a non-foamed panel.

This isn't your every day foam, this stuff was designed as a structural foam that will expand and not bubble up, and when it hardens it becomes like cement. It is not like a sponge.



The FLCA bushing doesnt move enough to cause a binding issue, unless something else is wrong.

Let me guess, you dont have the pleasure of dealing with salt/snow? It doesnt just contact a line of sight, it soaks into every crease and seam. Plus the only way to keep the moisure out of the rails is to completely seal them up. Do you have any idea what it would take to completely seal them? You would have to start by welding them shut in the engine bay; weld the seams all the way down, because they are spot welded.

The foam will block moisture and salt, but the rust will just eat around it, and the foam acts like a guide, moving under layers of metal like sheetrock. The OP is in NY, he is better off leaving the rails empty so he can use a nozzle to wash the rockers from time to time.


I foamed my civic, it was a 1996 civic sedan EX, stripped. 0 rust on the body untill I foamed it. After 1 winter the car fell apart with rust. and I plugged every hole possible with rubber plugs from ace hardware.

I also used rubberized 3m underspray, which made matters worse

[Brian]

I'm totally into tower bars and cages.

[turbo2nr]

so is the foam going to act like a catalyst causing the car to rust rapidly?

or will this happen naturally?

because i had this car for 3yrs now driven in salt and b.s. and i have no signs of rusting...

Bigsyke - what state do you live in? and what foam did you use?

[kingkilburn]

Like I said in my post, totally seal the rockers. The rubberized coating and plugs is probably what your problem was.

Here is what I would do in a perfect world where money and time aren't obstacles.

1. Open up rockers/frame rails and coat with weld through primer.

2. Weld them back up and cover seams with some kind of caulking.

3. In a hot/dry place shoot the foam. Seal up the hole for the foam.

Obviously you want to car on a rack to have the rails cut open.

[hijack3d]

So... read through this entire thread and this is the most helpful thing I can come up with:

Everyone is telling you that the Megan's aren't the best, but no one is really saying why. Here's the scoop... the valving on the Megan's are stupid. There's very little difference between full soft and full stiff. Regardless of how soft you go, it's still going to be a harsh ride, period.

What you're describing sounds like you want your car to be more responsive and predictable. Kind of like what I was striving for... for my car to handle like my BMW... predictable, sport suspension that's not harsh on the street. The fact is, they don't really make anything quite like this for our cars. We have to get inventive...what's out there either robs us of suspension travel, or the spring rates are too high... etc.

My suggestion is to get rid of the coilovers you have, since they're too stiff and rattling your suspension to peices. Get a set of KYB AGX's and through some Swift springs on there... Replace worn bushings with OEM replacements... they're still noticably different, and offer enough flex for the road. If you want to spend more cash, maybe get a front sway bar (stiffer in the front, softer in the rear). You'll likely break even if not gain by selling your MRs and buying new stuff.

I'm not even going to go into the foam stuff. That's not way beyond my comprehension, and nothing I'd even consider... But when it comes to my car and racing (road race, not drift), money is not an issue. My life > Cash

[turbo2nr]

no my car is very responsive, it just flexes alot over bumps un even surfaces ect. i want to car to feel more solid and in tack. not flimsy and weak..

i had gf210 and agx and i went to MR night and day difference i like then 100x more.. i have sway bars and ply bushings in front.

my problem isnt a weak handling car i just want it to feel more soild and less shakey. i guess i dont want it to feel like a 12yr old car.. thats why im looking in to reinforcement.

[Bigsyke]

Im in the northern midwest.

I used some 2lb closed cell foam, didnt do much - dry rotted after 2 years.

[Tenchuu]

i rock RSR sports i coils. they are a good combination of stiff and streetable. i daily drive mine and take it to auto X courses.

[slider2828]

I don't have problems with Megan tracks and I was at the track with them yesterday and yes I do feel the difference in dampening within 2 clicks.... Don't compare coilovers on the street because you are not using the coils in an environment where you can tell except your ass dyno which doesn't do any suspension justice.... and no its not my first trackday and not its not my first AutoX event and yes I touge, yes its daily driven, no I am not a professional racer, but I would like to be and working on my driving skills to do so.

You know what, take your car to the track and learn more about your car instead of reading everything on the internet.... then figure out what you want... Foaming bla bla bla everything here mentioned is people who have a preference to how their cars feel and they are giving a suggestion of what their car is to them. Not every car off the line is made the same nor have had the same history as your car. 13 Years of history makes every 240sx unique no on knows what you are experiencing, they are just describing something about their cars. Stiff is not always good....

If you don't want your car to feel like 13 yrs old.... guess what, buy a new one.... Welds, Frame, Metal Fatigue, nothing in the world you can do. Period.... Got money then? Full restore.... Strip it down to frame and rebuild the whole thing piece by piece.... Nothing you can do about it get over it.

[SoSideways]

Im in the northern midwest.

I used some 2lb closed cell foam, didnt do much - dry rotted after 2 years.

gunluvs14 used 8lb closed cell foam in his rockers.

Not sure if he ever got around to it, but he was telling me to do the pillars with the 2lb foam.

If I have time I'll look up the difference between the 2 foams, pretty sure there's a slight bit of difference, maybe even the "make or break" type difference.