Premixing

[MikeFD3S]

Does anyone use any kind of premix with their gas?

Although this is old hat among the rotary community, i don't see any negatives of doing this in a conventional piston engine. Right now I use 4 fluid oz of Marvel Mystery oil or Polaris 2 cycle engine oil to every full tank of gas in all of my cars. Car feels significantly smoother.

Basically:
Regular fuel injector cleaners break down oil which is a bad thing.

2 cycle oil burns clean, cleans deposits, all while lubricating at the same time.

It will affect octane rating, but only insignificantly by 2/10ths of a point

[kandyflip445]

Never heard of that before...:rolleyes: Does it mess up the fuel filter in anyway? Any downsides you've noticed? How much smoother does it run?

[MikeFD3S]

no it will not clog your fuel filter, it passes right through it.

Other than lowering the octane rating by .2, no downsides AFAIK

[kalieaire]

well for a rotary engine, it's mandatory. That's why you either run with the OMP(Oil Metering Pump for all you non rotary car-buffs) or 12 oz's of premix per tank.


The general reasoning between OMP and Premix is that the engine requires additional lubrication so that the combustion process doesn't leave an excessive amount of carbon build up, I mean shoot, Rotaries NEED to run rich to stay alive, that leaves a lot of crap behind, with the oil, it's lubricated and cleaned up.

I myself tried using premix, but it's questionable to what the positive side effects are. If it makes all your engines run smoother, that's great. But could it also be that since you really like to take care of your cars, they also run very smooth?


I a lot of cars with good gasoline, frequent oil changes, and maintenance on all replaceable parts during the regularly alotted maintenance intervals will keep an engine A-OK and soooo ohhhh soooo happy.

Like my friend's 97 volvo sedan w/ over 220k miles on it(he does a lot of driving), runs perfectly smooth and the chassis, the engine, and everything else is no worse for wear. He has full compression and it's still as smooth as it was when he first bought it. Dood, All he does? Regular maintenance at each of the 30,000 mile intervals plus oil changes every 3000 miles w/ Mobile 1 or Red Line synthetic.

Back on to the topic of Premix, ok, Royal purple is a really light weight oil, isn't it? I can imagine that it'd go right through the fuel injectors, it's certainly not as bad as blow by from the pcv flying past into the throttle body.

What do you think of ATF instead instead of premixing 2 stroke oil? You rotary guys use the ATF Trick to clean up the engine from carbon deposits on the apex seals and regain some compression, perhaps this could be a maintenance thing to do every few thousand miles, like once for a tank of gas per oil change. However, I don't know if ATF will eat through rubber and stuff like that. You tell me.

It's a pretty interesting idea, post on FA, some of those guys might know.

[MikeFD3S]

good post kalieaire

I think ATF is a little too extreme for premixing. ATF will break down all the carbon, but will break down the oil as well...not to mention fouling the plugs quicker, and blowing a good amount of white smoke out of the car.

I'm pretty fanatical when it comes to maintaining my cars so some of the difference may be debatable. The high mileage 89 SOHC S13 I recently bought was in need of a lot of TLC and I could feel a difference in the way it drove after premixing. Less misfiring at higher RPM, and smoother revs when going on and coming off the throttle. I put some in my friend's car (meowth) who's maintenance practices may be questionable ;) -- he said he could definitely feel a change in the smoothness of the engine.

[kalieaire]

Originally posted by MikeFD3S
I put some in my friend's car (meowth) who's maintenance practices may be questionable ;) -- he said he could definitely feel a change in the smoothness of the engine.


Hah, Yea, I've heard a lot about Jeremy (from Ben). :P


My engine still has a lot of power in it. But I have to troubleshoot some smoothness + mileage issues. I think it might've started getting a lot of carbon build up from the time my engine harness was fux0red.

For guys like "Meoweth" haha, yeah, premix might help, but for a car like mine, I have to take a more detailed look into it.

When I come down to Torrance during Spring Break to pick up the KA24DE Head, I gotta port it out, get some bettah throttle response. hehehe


------Back to premix and ATF

I wonder if ATF is ok in small quantities inside the motor oil. Because, the way you rotary guys do it is by putting it in the spark plug holes. :P and Crank, i'm sure some of that drops right into the pan.

The Cylinder guys can do it too but u kno, it's still not premixing.

Though, If you really wanted to do that, often, it's probably good to invest in a test pipe and a set of spark plugs that u won't mind fouling out allllllllllll the time. :P


--- Yea, so what would happen if you premixed ATF? I guess it's possible for ATF to seep past the rings, cuz shoot, that's what blow by is. seepage through the rings.

OKOK, Leave ATF For the bi annual engine maintainance.

Premix regular two stroke oils for normal fun. Yea, it might just help for regular crap cars. I guess i'll try it at my next fill up. 10oz for my 15.9 gallons vs 12 oz for 18.5 gallons.

[AKADriver]

Two strokes and rotary engines need premix to operate. Two strokes because of the nature of the crankcase, rotaries just to lubricate the apex seals.

There's no reason to do this on a four-stroke engine, which doesn't have the two-stroke's "open" crankcase or the rotary's apex seals. I suppose it could help an engine with worn rings, otherwise it's pretty much just a waste.

[240meowth]

Originally posted by kalieaire

For guys like "Meoweth" haha, yeah, premix might help, but for a car like mine, I have to take a more detailed look into it.


Originally posted by MikeFD3S
I put some in my friend's car (meowth) who's maintenance practices may be questionable ;) -- he said he could definitely feel a change in the smoothness of the engine.

and meowth says:
http://mrclam.com/DCP_0002.jpg
aye, fcuk both of you!!! i do my oil change every 9,000 miles ok? that's good maintance yo

[kalieaire]

Originally posted by AKADriver
Two strokes and rotary engines need premix to operate. Two strokes because of the nature of the crankcase, rotaries just to lubricate the apex seals.

There's no reason to do this on a four-stroke engine, which doesn't have the two-stroke's "open" crankcase or the rotary's apex seals. I suppose it could help an engine with worn rings, otherwise it's pretty much just a waste.


engines don't -need- to have premix or the OMP to run. it's just preferred to help engine longevity. In fact, a lot of people leave their OMP running and still add premix to rotaries, but that's overkill IMO.

We're wondering if it would be a "waste" to run premix in cylinder engines.

The whole premise to premix is not to help with worn rings, or bad sealing valves or any of that(well maybe, but for a different reason).

We want to know if premix would be beneficial in keeping the engine clean, somewhat like using, say, fuel injector cleaner, not that crappy techron, stp, penzoil crap that's just methanol or some distilled alcohol.

We're talking about being comparable to stuff like BG44k and the other BG fuel injector cleaning systems. (You know the professional ones that you hook your fuel rail up to as a temporary replacement for gasoline? These systems clean out carbon deposits in the quench zones of your cylinder head, pistons, valves, and so fourth.


But have you actually tried running premix in your car? Do you know someone that has? Do you have documented evidence to show us that these attempts at running premix is non-beneficial or even detrimental?

Did you run these experiments with controlled conditions? ie using the same gasoline, trying out for several trials, even multiple engines that have worn in the exact same way, run for the same amount of miles and all that?

-- I'm going to assume no. I'm not trying to flame you or anything. I agree, I think that adding premix 2 stroke oil in our cylinder engines is useless.

However, I have no proof that it is. so I am willing to try to see if there is truth in it or not.

I don't presume to know everything, that's why I'm at least willing to attempt, reading more evidence, and research before I make any judgements.

[kalieaire]

Originally posted by MikeFD3S

The high mileage 89 SOHC S13 I recently bought was in need of a lot of TLC and I could feel a difference in the way it drove after premixing. Less misfiring at higher RPM, and smoother revs when going on and coming off the throttle.


Oh yeah, I forgot to say. There are also some differences between the SOHC KA24E and the DOHC KA24DE motors.

Yes, yes, obviously the single overhead cam vs the dualie on the DE.

but that was not what I was referring to.

I was referring to the compression ratios of the two motors.

The KA24E had a 9.1:1 compression ratio in the beginning, but due to bad experiences with engine knocking and such, due to mistakes in calculating the fuel qualities available in the US, they had the 90's KA24E run 8.6:1 compression.

In the KA24DE's w/ better designed quench areas in the cylinder head and pistons, it ran higher compressiong (9.5:1) without knocking even on crappy pump gas!

The reason for this post is just outlying the differences between engines and the possibilities of diminished effect and stuff.

---Misfiring is a symptom of running rich, as you know, perhaps running the premix made the fuel more flammable due to the lowering of the octane?

However, if it's running rich, you might have had leaking injectors or any number of other problems. Perhaps the premix helped your topfeed injectors seal up a little better?

How long have you had your KA24E??



----random side note-----

Did you know that you could give your pistons to Meoweth and have him install them in his engine? He'd get freakin' 12:1 compression ratio!!!!

haha that's cool, however, he wouldn't be able to do that except by running super leaded race gas. (say bye bye to catalytic converter!)

But yea, if you're planning on running NA, high comp is the way to go.

Though, in a SOHC, you're somewhat assed out, you can get overbored pistons, webber dcoe, ins and outs, and engine balancing.

--------------------end of side note that is random---------

[drift into a curb]

I've read your guys's posts, but how does pre-mixing work? Add approximately 4 oz of engine oil? Any recommended types? Engine oils are different weights, so what is recommended on that? Any info is appreciated :D

[drift freaq]

like AKA driver said and quote premixing is required for 2 stroke engines .
Rotaries act like 2 stroke engines in the way they run and fire. In that sense for a rotary a premix solution indeed might help.
Like AKA driver said premix is completely unecssary for 4 stroke engines . It does not give you any advantages and in fact may gunk up your combustion chambers and intake tract. Most things like marvel mystery oil , royal purple and such are high detergent products all they do is clean carbon out . On an old engine it sometimes help.
As far as KA24e 's vs DE's goes they are still both 4 stroke engines and premixing is a waste of time .
I.E. I would not recommend nor would Nissan. Period.

[p_action]

so i attempted a test today...

4oz marvel + full tank of gas

and yes...the car still runs..yay...

but seriously...i dont expect it to do much, just experimenting...i didn't notice any driveability differences after 60+ mi on the tank. But, premix is not required for 4-stroke piston motors.

[kalieaire]

Originally posted by p_action
so i attempted a test today...

4oz marvel + full tank of gas

and yes...the car still runs..yay...

but seriously...i dont expect it to do much, just experimenting...i didn't notice any driveability differences after 60+ mi on the tank. But, premix is not required for 4-stroke piston motors.

That's a pretty light dilution of marvel mystery, like .2 ozs per gallon. I was recommending more like .7 ozs per gallon.


Yep, it's not required for four stroke engines. I -never- said it was required, either.

[MikeFD3S]

it's definitely not required...I dont think anyone mentioned that it's a necessity on a conventional 4 stroke engine.

I just see it as a safer and cheaper method of keeping the injectors clean and reducing carbon buildup. It will not cause any kind of buildup as it burns a lot cleaner than the oil that you put into the car.

drift into a curb> no do not put engine oil in your gas! :eek:

I've had the ka24e for about 2 weeks. Very high mileage engine, but it's still kicking (and surprisingly not ticking). I'm doing every little trick I know to get the best performance and life out of it before I undertake ~the swap~

It was running on 3 cylinders for a while as one of the spark plug wire electrodes was missing and the wire was hanging loose :D Suffice to say, i'm getting much better gas mileage now. Im assuming for a 14 year old car with 180k on it, and a good amount of canyon running miles...the injectors are in really bad shape. I'd take them out to get them cleaned and balanced, but it just wouldnt be cost effective if i'm swapping in another engine in a month or two...hence the premixing