100 octane KA

[Brian]

I like riding in drift cars t hat run on race gas. 100/103/110 whatever...

Well, those guys all have SRs and high power stuff.
I have a stock KA.


Is it ok to run a high octane gasoline like that in my car?

I mostly want to do it for the smell. I like the aroma that comes off these cars.


So, any negatives to running a high octane gas like these?

[waynehead05]

I have a feeling you're joking... but I want to ask anyway,

are you being serious or just playing?

[I10cruiser]

i think ernie ran 110 or one of the dtc guys and i think might of blown there kae after a while. . high octane=win

[Brian]

I'm pretty serious.

I don't think I'd want to run LEADED, right?
Unleaded only. I still have the cat in my car.

I don't want to use this gas everyday, but just put some in when I go to the track...

[LongGrain]

a stock KA will not burn 100 octane efficiently

[Brian]

Yeah, I've heard that, but will my car run WORSE than if I put 91 or something in there?

Will that 100+ octane ruin my engine somehow?

[vvtisupra]

100 octane will run worse. are you going for the scented race gas smell ? Like lavender or bubble gum? Cuz if thats the case you can just buy the additive and put it in your normal gas. Technically the lower the octane you can go without detonation is the best.

[Brian]

I see....

Ok, I guess I won't run 100+ then.
I don't want to make my car run WORSE just for the good smell.

Maybe I could just spill a little around the car or something... give it a hint of race gas smell...

[racepar1]

It will run less efficiently and you will lose a bit of power. You don't want to run any more octane than what is absolutely necessary. Higher octane = higher resistance to combustion = burns less efficiently = less power. I don't think it will permanently damage your engine though.

[S14DB]

You will be fine running any Unleaded Race Gas in your car. Leaded will kill your O2 sensor, Cat and leave deposits all over the spark plugs and the back of your valves.

Negatives is that it burns slower then lower grades. May not get complete combustion and lower your MPG. If you run colder plugs then stock check them after the first time. May need a hotter set for race gas. These are all minor things.

[LongGrain]

soak a rag or something in it and keep it in the car as an air freshener when you go to the track :keke:

but i would not recommend using it, ESPECIALLY if you have a cat.

[Brian]

Yeah, looks like I won't be using it.

I have no desire to change things around. Putting gas into the gas tank is the most amount of work I want to do.

And, seeing as I have a stock engine, I don't want to LOSE ANY power.

Thanks guys.

[usdm180sx]

It's like $8/gallon at the 76 station in Fullerton

[McRussellPants]

Yeah, looks like I won't be using it.

I have no desire to change things around. Putting gas into the gas tank is the most amount of work I want to do.

And, seeing as I have a stock engine, I don't want to LOSE ANY power.

Thanks guys.

Put in Racegas
advance timing all the way
?????
profit

[Brian]

Lol lol

Advance timing? I have no idea how to do that.

[S14DB]

Just mix like 5galons of 100R and a full tank. Will give you the smell and only raise the Octane 3~4 points.

[driftking777]

if you want a cool smell you could always run something like this

Manhattan Oil 19769-32 - Manhattan Oil Fuel Fragrances - summitracing.com (http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=MOC%2D19769%2D32&N=700+4294860689+115&autoview=sku)

comes in grape and cherry :keke:

13 bucks will do 2 tanks of gas. and this shit is strong. we run it in our pressure washer...lol

[S14DB]

if you want a cool smell you could always run something like this

Manhattan Oil 19769-32 - Manhattan Oil Fuel Fragrances - summitracing.com (http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=MOC%2D19769%2D32&N=700+4294860689+115&autoview=sku)

comes in grape and cherry :keke:

13 bucks will do 2 tanks of gas. and this shit is strong. we run it in our pressure washer...lol

"Fragrance levels will be reduced on vehicles equipped with catalytic converters."

[Brian]

I don't want fruity gasoline.

yuck.

[LongGrain]

It's like $8/gallon at the 76 station in Fullerton

wow really? around here this summer race gas was like 5.50

but that was when normal gas was like 4.xx so its probably even cheaper now.

[VQMaxFan]

Just mix like 5galons of 100R and a full tank. Will give you the smell and only raise the Octane 3~4 points.

+1

I dont think you even need high of a mix ratio to get the smell.

[projectRDM]

Ya, the times I've ran 103 I just mix it, 3-4 gallons per tank, bump the timing a degree and go. Doesn't feel any faster but it smells nice.

[slider2828]

There is permanent damage because at high end you will not have complete burn. Overtime that will cause some damage to the pistons and rings as it will seep through your rings into your oil and that destroys the lubrication properties of oil.....

[S14DB]

There is permanent damage because at high end you will not have complete burn. Overtime that will cause some damage to the pistons and rings as it will seep through your rings into your oil and that destroys the lubrication properties of oil.....

It's not going to wash down running higher octane. That's only if he had a extremely rich AFR no matter what the octane.

It will just burn slower then a lower octane. As long as the AFR is good he will get a complete burn. It will just be later then normal. You won't get as much power. Why it was suggested he advance his timing.

[slider2828]

Hmmm that is true....

[sillyvia13]

Put in Racegas
advance timing all the way
?????
profit


SOUNDS LIKE A PLAN!!!!!

BRAIN I AM SEND A FUCKING ECU! to you...
gimmie your address NOW!

If you like it send me your ecu and $50!
You gotta see the power from these...
pm me well talk... you need more than that na ka oem ecu can do...
hit me

[lflkajfj12123]

It will run less efficiently and you will lose a bit of power. You don't want to run any more octane than what is absolutely necessary. Higher octane = higher resistance to combustion = burns less efficiently = less power. I don't think it will permanently damage your engine though.

so you're saying

if i put 93 octane in my stock ka i'm actually losing power..

so putting 87 in my tank is actually better

some one hit me with some knowledge

[Def]

This thread is full of fail.


Combustion rate is NOT directly related to octane rating of a fuel. There is some race gas that has a faster combustion rate than normal pump gas, and some that has a slower combustion rate of the gas. VP Import stuff in particular touts its higher combustion rate to enable a small increase in power at very high RPM(<8000 RPM).

[racepar1]

so you're saying

if i put 93 octane in my stock ka i'm actually losing power..

so putting 87 in my tank is actually better

some one hit me with some knowledge

Ka's are supposed to run on 91 octane, that is what you should run. I get a bit of pinging in hot weather from 87 octane, so I stick with 91. I doubt you will lose anything with 93 octane, but with 110 octane you probably will.

This thread is full of fail.


Combustion rate is NOT directly related to octane rating of a fuel. There is some race gas that has a faster combustion rate than normal pump gas, and some that has a slower combustion rate of the gas. VP Import stuff in particular touts its higher combustion rate to enable a small increase in power at very high RPM(<8000 RPM).

In all cases, no. Generally speaking though higher octane means slower combustion. You can get race gas that will burn as fast or faster then pump gas, but most race fuels don't. What higher octane really means is a higher resistance to combustion. It takes higher cylinder pressures and/or temperatures to burn higher octane fuels efficiently then it does to burn pump gas efficiently.

[Def]

In all cases, no. Generally speaking though higher octane means slower combustion. You can get race gas that will burn as fast or faster then pump gas, but most race fuels don't. What higher octane really means is a higher resistance to combustion. It takes higher cylinder pressures and/or temperatures to burn higher octane fuels efficiently then it does to burn pump gas efficiently.

Absolutely 100% incorrect on all counts. Burn kinetics at the same octane rating, but with a fuel made of up different compounds(more aromatics, more TEL, etc.), will be vastly different.

Tuning cars on different fuels, and learning a few things about combustion engineer makes this readily apparent.

[lflkajfj12123]

yeaaaaaahhhh

my brain just got fucked in the ass

[sillyvia13]

vp racefuels.com
i ran it in my na ka s13 dohc with a touch of timing, IT LOVED IT!

not something i did often, but it enjoyed it...
btw brain you got a s14 huh?
if so no go on ecu, you'd need a s13 / s14 jumper harness and a s13 ecu, probably like $150 in the end, but you can tune like its a obd0

[BoostedCoupe]

vp racefuels.com
i ran it in my na ka s13 dohc with a touch of timing, IT LOVED IT!

not something i did often, but it enjoyed it...
btw brain you got a s14 huh?
if so no go on ecu, you'd need a s13 / s14 jumper harness and a s13 ecu, probably like $150 in the end, but you can tune like its a obd0
He has a s13 now. The s14 was sold.

[Icy13]

Um, to the squabble over what octane means: Octane rating - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating)

Translation from a person with a Physics Degree (me): The point of an internal combustion engine is to combust fuel to release energy, doing work over a certain time (aka power = work/time). Thus more power with more energy or less time.

If the fuel has a higher resistance to combustion, than you will take more time to combust. Thus the power out put is lower assuming that you have released the same amount of energy from the fuel (assuming basically that a higher octane fuel is simply a lower octane fuel with octane raising additives, which is generally the case).

Damage: probably not, but the comments about deposits remaining I can get on board with as the likelihood of complete combustion within the same amount of time as lower octane fuel is pretty slim.

However, octane is a rating of resistance to detonation not combustion, although the two are related. Detonation, in car terms, means that the fuel has combusted due to heat and pressure premature to the desired instant of ignition. In general terms, detonation is uncontrolled combustion that occurs supersonically (the flame front travels faster than sound)

Combustion, in automotive terms, refers to the planned burning of fuel ignited, in a gasoline engine, by a spark plug. This usage of combustion refers to the deflagration form of combustion, basically a sub-sonic flame front

What all this means scientifically to the layman (most of us): Although octane measures resistance to "detonation", the same proporties that cause resistance to this inhibit "combustion." Thus, a flame front will travel slower in a higher octane fuel than a lower octane one. Thus, one has to time their engine to ignite fuel earlier for a higher octane fuel to achieve complete combustion at the same point in time as a lower octane fuel.

-------------------------------------------------

BOTTOM LINE: I do encourage you to read through all the above, quite educational and good for all car enthusiats and I enjoyed writing it. However this basically means that in an unmodified engine, use the lowest octane fuel that the engine was designed for (for my s14, there is a little sticker on the filler door that says use 92 octane aka Premium) for best performance and engine health. Lower octane risks detonation, higher octane lowers power output and risks deposits in the cyclnders, although this is prolonged use, in the short term you would be fine as the deposits would be washed by the detergents in all modern gas.

Bottom Bottom Line: if you want the smell, try to find an additive that simulates it or mix 87 octane and race gas (find out the octane) to achieve the ideal 92 octane your engine craves (anyone seen Idiocracy? 92 Octane, it's what kas crave!!! :-P)

Konrad

Edit: I forgot to insult people :-P (seriously, though, dont take this that way, I mean it to help others not insult you def)
This thread is full of fail.


Combustion rate is NOT directly related to octane rating of a fuel. There is some race gas that has a faster combustion rate than normal pump gas, and some that has a slower combustion rate of the gas. VP Import stuff in particular touts its higher combustion rate to enable a small increase in power at very high RPM(<8000 RPM).

"Combustion" rate is indeed indirectly related to octane rating (combustion in automotive terms, in scientific terms detonation is a type of combustion and therefore octane is directly related). My thoughts on the fuel that burns faster is that there must be some sort of catelyst that causes the heat to spike when ignited that is inert during the compression stage of the Otto cycle. Cool shit there, if I am correct, but this is an exception not the rule.

Absolutely 100% incorrect on all counts. Burn kinetics at the same octane rating, but with a fuel made of up different compounds(more aromatics, more TEL, etc.), will be vastly different.

Tuning cars on different fuels, and learning a few things about combustion engineering makes this readily apparent.

Not entirely true, octane rating is not separate of composition, it simply compares detonation point versus a standard. That being said, different additives may catalyze the reaction creating these differences. I am not an expert in different gas types, this is simply an analysis based on physics/chem/thermo

[Def]

Um, to the squabble over what octane means: Octane rating - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating)

Translation from a person with a Physics Degree (me): The point of an internal combustion engine is to combust fuel to release energy, doing work over a certain time (aka power = work/time). Thus more power with more energy or less time.

A translation from someone with a mechanical engineering degree (me) and an academic background in the engineering behind internal combustion engines: Physicists don't learn about this subject matter in depth in their degree program, so that's why you'd never hire a physicist to be a combustion/ICE engineer.


If the fuel has a higher resistance to combustion, than you will take more time to combust. Thus the power out put is lower assuming that you have released the same amount of energy from the fuel (assuming basically that a higher octane fuel is simply a lower octane fuel with octane raising additives, which is generally the case).

I have no idea why you think this, but it's wrong. An Otto cycle engine(a spark ignition 4 stroke) will have a "very rapid" pressure spike after ignition, which is happening BTDC. You want peak pressure somewhere around 15-30 degrees ATDC depending on the engine and the operating parameters. I have no idea how you think a fuel being resistant to detonation makes it resistant to combustion. This is not the same process. Resistance to detonation is what octane rating refers to - I suggest you actually READ the wikipedia article you linked instead of making up definitions for terms. There is no "energy absorbed" by the fuel molecule during combustion, the heat/pressure from the combustion just overcomes the reaction energy needed for the combustion to spread to the rest of the air fuel mixture.




"Combustion" rate is indeed indirectly related to octane rating (combustion in automotive terms, in scientific terms detonation is a type of combustion and therefore octane is directly related). My thoughts on the fuel that burns faster is that there must be some sort of catelyst that causes the heat to spike when ignited that is inert during the compression stage of the Otto cycle. Cool shit there, if I am correct, but this is an exception not the rule.

Sorry, that Candy Land story about "magic catalysts" causing heat spikes is not true, so it is not "cool shit." Where are you getting this crap?



Not entirely true, octane rating is not separate of composition, it simply compares detonation point versus a standard. That being said, different additives may catalyze the reaction creating these differences. I am not an expert in different gas types, this is simply an analysis based on physics/chem/thermo

???

Octane rating is indeed entirely independent from composition. There are a million ways to get a fuel with an AKI of 100, and they can have wildly varying properties.


VP knows way more about fuels than ANYBODY here, so you might want to question your "knowledge" about why they formulate fuels for different applications which include wide variations in RPM windows where the fuels are meant to perform best.



This thread is beyond :facepalm status. Contact VP Race Fuels if you don't believe me and ask them if octane rating is directly related to burn rate. They'll probably tell you to learn to read and look at their product line which CLEARLY spells out that this isn't the case.

[kapowerhicomp1]

91 octane its great for stock ka with minor or major mods running with stock compression .........my ka has jim wolf ecu...with 93 and 100 octane tune... if going to run high compression or turbo with high boost 100+ is the best......:blah:

[racepar1]

Absolutely 100% incorrect on all counts. Burn kinetics at the same octane rating, but with a fuel made of up different compounds(more aromatics, more TEL, etc.), will be vastly different.

Tuning cars on different fuels, and learning a few things about combustion engineer makes this readily apparent.

Ok then what does octane signify mr fuel expert? A higher octane fuel has a higher resistance to combustion. Without a higher resistance to combustion it would pre-detonate in high compression/boost applications just like street gas would. Since a higher octane fuel has a higher resistance to combustion it will not burn as efficiently in a low compression/boost application, because it NEEDS the extra cylinder temps/pressure, which will cost you some power. That is logic, I do not need an engineering degree to tell me that that statement is correct. You are right that the burn kinetics will certainly differ with the different compositions of different fuels at least, but I did agree with that statement already in my previous post.

[kapowerhicomp1]

Ok then what does octane signify mr fuel expert? A higher octane fuel has a higher resistance to combustion. Without a higher resistance to combustion it would pre-detonate in high compression/boost applications just like street gas would. Since a higher octane fuel has a higher resistance to combustion it will not burn as efficiently in a low compression/boost application, because it NEEDS the extra cylinder temps/pressure, which will cost you some power. That is logic, I do not need an engineering degree to tell me that that statement is correct. You are right that the burn kinetics will certainly differ with the different compositions of different fuels at least, but I did agree with that statement already in my previous post. are you coming to htm sun????

[racepar1]

are you coming to htm sun????

I wish, too broke. :cry:

[kapowerhicomp1]

next year bro.... but i will have video and pics after the event ... on htm kapower out....................:)

[kapowerhicomp1]

I wish, too broke. :cry:
when can you do air ducts for brakes...

[Icy13]

I heartily support the thread jack ^^ :)

But, to def, please pm if you want to continue this but I have not idea what you are referring to when you say detonation and combustion are not related. Having taken both our advice and read wikipedia, they are indeed closely related. I am not going to post the links.

My explanation was meant for the layman as I wrote, and no I am not trying to re-engineer the internal combustion engine. However, engineering is not some sort of magical exception to science and thus I was providing a basic explanation of octane rating and how that affects combustion based on my analytical ability and knowledge from Wikipedia.

2. I fully admit that the "candy land shit" may be just that. I was taking a wild guess. I actually would appreciate information you may have on that, it would be quite interesting.

3. What I meant to say is that composition is not taken into account when judging octane. I know that two diff substances can have the same octane. I think I made that unclear and for that I apologize.

4. I guess there could be a loophole i am missing in the science where a fuel with a high resistance to pressure based ignition (which is the basis of detonation, a pressure wave compresses the fuel and causes it to combust) and a low heat requirement, but my understanding of such matters is that one cannot seperate pressure and temperature dependance. I may be mistaken, and if so, I appologize for my candy land shit once again. CTFD mr. def.

Also, sorry I cant spell :(

And if i misused the word catalyst in some way, I am truly remorseful, I merely meant to say that there may be more factors outside of typical ideal combustion that will affect the process, perhaps significantly.

I dont know what htm sun is (*sadface :( ) Oh well....

[Def]

Ok then what does octane signify mr fuel expert? A higher octane fuel has a higher resistance to combustion. Without a higher resistance to combustion it would pre-detonate in high compression/boost applications just like street gas would. Since a higher octane fuel has a higher resistance to combustion it will not burn as efficiently in a low compression/boost application, because it NEEDS the extra cylinder temps/pressure, which will cost you some power. That is logic, I do not need an engineering degree to tell me that that statement is correct. You are right that the burn kinetics will certainly differ with the different compositions of different fuels at least, but I did agree with that statement already in my previous post.

It's right in the wikipedia article - it's resistance to detonation - which is NOT combustion.

Fuel with a higher octane doesn't "soak up" extra combustion energy as it's burning - it RELEASES energy as long as there is enough heat/pressure to make it undergo the exothermic combustion process. A chemical "reluctance" to undergo combustion does not equal a greater energy input to start the combustion process, even though it might take higher pressures/temperatures to get the internal energy of the mixture high enough to spontaneous combust. You're thinking about this in a mechanical way of "more energy required to combust = higher octane," when it's a really a chemical change that makes it reluctant to undergo detonation due to high pressure.


...and no reason to get pissy due to the fact that I took quite a few classes in undergrad directly related to this subject.

[Brian]

So, I see paragraphs...

LOCKED NOW.

Thanks for the those with simple answers. :)

kisses,
bh