Auto Industry Bailout [Archive] - Zilvia.net Forums | Nissan 240SX (Silvia) and Z (Fairlady) Car Forum

Phlip

11-13-2008, 10:23 AM

no, they should not have banked on the SUV/pick-up market and started thinking about economy cars years ago. Its common knowledge that the Large cars truck and SUV are not near as popular anymore. They cost to much initally and in the cost of gas.
While I would want to be inclined to agree, I am going to have to in this case. When Japan brought in smaller and more efficient cars, they were basically laughed off, then conformed with the vans and trucks and shit themselves. The industry is consumer driven, you sell what people buy, and to let them die for doing what they were EXPECTED to do is irresponsible, spiteful and shortsighted...
The bailout is necessary because of the number of jobs that it would IMMEDIATELY cut if they go under, and the many many more that would be lost as a result of THOSE people losing their jobs, think tools and IT products and such... Fuck, even paper and bathroom supplies, odd as it may seem.
As much as I hate to see money flushed into something that COULD have gone down differently, I am but without choice but to say yes to the automotive industry bailout.
-HOWEVER-
It should come with some language to bring jobs home, and to affordably produce more efficient, but still practical products as well... Don't just give them a blank fucking check to go on doing the same shit again.

... I'll finish eating my lunch now.

DMaxUSA

11-13-2008, 10:43 AM

exitspeed

11-13-2008, 10:48 AM

no, they should not have banked on the SUV/pick-up market and started thinking about economy cars years ago. Its common knowledge that the Large cars truck and SUV are not near as popular anymore. They cost to much initially and in the cost of gas. BUT i feel bad becuase many hard working people that deserve better will get screwed. I say Fire some CEO's and take there yearly wages and BONUSES, and give that as severance for anyone that gets caned.

Yes the fucked up in the past. But you have to understand and what cost not bailing them out will have on the entire world.

If the Gov lets GM ALONE crumble Ww are talking 2.5-3 MILLION people loosing their jobs. Not including all the jobs/companies that depend on the millions of employees that those people support in the communities across the country. That would be catastrophic to our economy. It would surely send our country into a depression worse then the great Depression.

I feel like I'm saying this a lot, but you can't cut off your nose to spite your face.

slidingsky

11-13-2008, 10:48 AM

Maybe the US sector of Toyota but that is very unlikely to happen.

Agamemnon

11-13-2008, 10:55 AM

Let'em go bankrupt, then have the union contracts voided, then bail'em out. Can that happen? The labor costs are what's burying the big 3.GM's quality is on the rise and they've been pumping out some nice cars for a few years, so there is a solid future for them in time. People just have to trust GM again.

It'll be interesting to see if Ford can reignite interest with their euro models coming to the US.

seesquared

11-13-2008, 10:57 AM

i agree with PHLIP. If in fact, they do bail out the auto industry, or the banks, or any industry, it should come with some strict regulations

Im not opposed to paying some taxes to help the country out, but at least but the money to good use.

drift freaq

11-13-2008, 11:21 AM

While I would want to be inclined to agree, I am going to have to in this case. When Japan brought in smaller and more efficient cars, they were basically laughed off, then conformed with the vans and trucks and shit themselves. The industry is consumer driven, you sell what people buy, and to let them die for doing what they were EXPECTED to do is irresponsible, spiteful and shortsighted...
The bailout is necessary because of the number of jobs that it would IMMEDIATELY cut if they go under, and the many many more that would be lost as a result of THOSE people losing their jobs, think tools and IT products and such... Fuck, even paper and bathroom supplies, odd as it may seem.
As much as I hate to see money flushed into something that COULD have gone down differently, I am but without choice but to say yes to the automotive industry bailout.
-HOWEVER-
It should come with some language to bring jobs home, and to affordably produce more efficient, but still practical products as well... Don't just give them a blank fucking check to go on doing the same shit again.

... I'll finish eating my lunch now.

Wow Phlip, now I don't have to post! Basically I agree 100% with your post and reasons. Only thing I will add is emphasis on the requirement for them to make fuel efficient smaller cars and not focus on gas guzzling SUV behemoths.

s13dan

11-13-2008, 11:24 AM

My real problem is when does the bailing out stop??? We keep bailing out corperations so people dont lose their jobs, which is fine, thats good. But some people DO need to lose their jobs...Higher ups that will not be effected by the bail outs are who we need to look at. The guys that decided what to try and sell and how many to produce. Besides who do you think pays the bailouts? The people that woulda lost there jobs, so either way the get screwed because of bad decesions someone else made.

derux

11-13-2008, 12:12 PM

Even if they do get bailed out are any of you going to buy the US cars are keep supporting the japanese cars. We are the ones losing by not buying american.

HyperTek

11-13-2008, 12:27 PM

Phlip

11-13-2008, 12:39 PM

so this would affect people in detroit? from my understanding, that area already is pretty rough, would be crazier.

Tough call i agree with crimson.

Id buy an american car but nothing really grabs me.. (no affordible sports coupes, everything is a v6 or v8 pony car) need to step up the quality and get rid of the "bigger is better" motive. Who the hell needs a F-450?? lol
Not just in Detroit...
Think of GM (Chevy, GMC, Cadillac, Pontiac and Buick), Chrysler (Dodge, Plymouth, Jeep) and FoMoCo (Ford, Lincoln, Mercury) dealerships, and all the people that they employ, from salespeople, to parts clerks, to couriers, to greeters and even fucking janitors.

Think of GMAC and if Ford and Chrysler have similar.
Think of the sheer number of COMPUTERS these people have to sit in front of and all the networks that need to be maintained, by means of hardware and software. This is not only nationwide, but WORLDWIDE, TENS OF MILLIONS of people.

Yes, even computer and IT companies may wind up having to cut jobs when their (naturally) largest customer in terms of sheer volume goes to shit.

Look at it like this... Do you want your tax money to go toward keeping them in a job, in which they will shoulder SOME of that load with you, or do you want your tax dollars to go towards supporting them in the time they are without a job and cannot get one because their company COULD have been saved, but weren't.

Oh, and what would happen to ALL of the warranty services?

Agamemnon

11-13-2008, 12:44 PM

Oh, and what would happen to ALL of the warranty services?
Not only that, but think about the resale values of the cars. They would be worthless.

shinhed

11-13-2008, 12:50 PM

Even if they do get bailed out are any of you going to buy the US cars are keep supporting the japanese cars. We are the ones losing by not buying american.

No, this is the 240sx forum:wink:

But seriously, I coulda swore that at least GM was turning things around with Saturn's all new lineup including the Sky and Aura; Pontiac and it's new sports sedans and Solstice; Chevy and it's sporty Cobalt (<--not a bad car at all), Camaro hype, Vette flagship and Volt; Caddy's excellent sedans; Buick and...it's...uhh...

Anyway, I'm really hoping they pull through.

Phlip

11-13-2008, 12:51 PM

Not only that, but think about the resale values of the cars. They would be worthless.
Yeah, that too.
In such, used car dealers and sales are similarly crippled, thusly hammering some small business owners, and even some larger ones, like Carmax and such.

The trickle down of NOT doing this would be FILTHY ugly.

All I beg is that some language be included with mind on this shit not repeating itself.

Brian

11-13-2008, 12:57 PM

HyperTek

11-13-2008, 01:05 PM

some of those people will have a hard time picking up another job.. since building cars on a assembly lot might be the only experience they have to fall back on..

But if those american manufacturers fall out.. Import companies could swoop it back up, demand/sales would increase on them thus possibly requiring to open up plants and supplying those same jobs back

Phlip

11-13-2008, 01:17 PM

Too many people are getting handouts these days it would seem.

Auto company... you failed! Oh, we'll help you though.
Poor people... you failed! Oh, we'll give you other people's money though even though you don't do S.
Home owners who bought a house they could never afford... you failed. Oh, we'll help you a little bit though.

If you mess up. DEAL WITH IT.

You, sir, are wrong... No need to wade through all the sense I made in those posts up there, just go here:

Look at it like this... Do you want your tax money to go toward keeping them in a job, in which they will shoulder SOME of that load with you, or do you want your tax dollars to go towards supporting them in the time they are without a job and cannot get one because their company COULD have been saved, but weren't.

Now, I will predict that you WOULD likely say "well, neither!" in response to that, but that leaves us with an even UGLIER specter, and that includes you getting knocked over your fucking head and mugged for whatever you may have in your pockets, or perhaps your groceries taken at knifepoint in the parking lot at the store, maybe even your house robbed for it.
The fact here is that one way or another, it's gonna have to happen. The most painless way to it as it relates to the viable options is the bailout. The immediate, or even gradual (over the course of a few months to a couple of years), but still SHARP increase of joblessness will turn the US in a fucking third world country, speaking in terms of increased crime alone.

Anyone who would sooner say "well I wouldn't want to help anyone, why can't EVERYONE be lucky?" than to take a moment to see the HUGE downside of NOT doing this is a goddamned nihilist and should probably be taken out back and put out of all of our miseries.

some of those people will have a hard time picking up another job.. since building cars on a assembly lot might be the only experience they have to fall back on..

But if those american manufacturers fall out.. Import companies could swoop it back up, demand/sales would increase on them thus possibly requiring to open up plants and supplying those same jobs back
I agree with that first point.
... but the second, not so much.

Comparing the cost of labor and materials stateside, they would NEED tax cuts to make it happen, something we can honestly ill afford as it is. It'd be kinda like trading venereal diseases; "I got rid of syphillis, now I got gonorrhea!!!" I would sooner want to see dealing with the devil I know than bringing in another.
Not to mention that one could ask Hoover, Reagan and Bush43 and see that TAX CUTS CAUSE CRASHES!!! (http://www.alternet.org/workplace/106410/tax_cuts%3A_the_b.s._and_the_facts/?page=entire) (yes, that is a link, click it).
I also couldn't see how foreign automakers would bring THAT many jobs in to make them a "replacement" for the failed US automakers.

Again, I hate to see good money flushed into shit, and this on the whole seems to be wasteful spending, but this is unfortunately a very necessary evil.

dynamicck

11-13-2008, 01:17 PM

Hell no they shouldn't bail out the auto industry.
WHY?
Because the BIG 3 (GM, Ford, Daimler) chased short term profits like SUV/Truck sales. They made more profit on bigger cars, than smaller cars. So instead of being competitive, they went after short term profits.

They didnt use their short term profits to R&D more gas efficient cars. It should be known that producing cheap shit, and chasing short term profits, will make you bankrupt.

The result of the mortgage industry was from the government being involved when they should not have been. They tried to increase the amount of homeowners, lowered interest rates, and reduced restrictions.
During the Clinton administration, they pushed for more home ownership. Problem is with that, not everyone can afford a home.... simple supply and demand theory.

Brian

11-13-2008, 01:24 PM

Philip - I don't think we SHOULD bail them out, but I think we HAVE TO.
big difference.
Our country NEEDS them, so we're going to HAVE TO help out.

I'm tired of people getting handouts...

sillyvia13

11-13-2008, 01:29 PM

Even if they do get bailed out are any of you going to buy the US cars are keep supporting the japanese cars. We are the ones losing by not buying american.

RIGHT!
I think this when I hear dont buy knock offs... and buy jdm, save greddy

what about US A!

I could use a BAILOUT!
I aint Chillin in no RITZ paid for by my peeps! like AIG, and bankers... when I failed at work.. I lost my job... I didnt get a bonus?

I say CLOSE EM DOWN!
Sell the factory and all the shit inside and give money to fund HOMES for the workers...

WE THE PEOPLE NEED TO TEAM UP WITH PEOPLE NOT MONEY (aka waste 40 hours aweek for fucking $$$$) if you spent 40 hours a week on your life and trying to better your family directly instead of wasting tax money on war we'd be fine...

Its so sad...

BAILOUT MY ASS!!!!!!!
ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! we live in MOBB times and get hustled by fucking nerdy white guys who if you farted next to them they'd crumble.... PISSES ME OFF!

end rant.

SHIFT_*grind*

11-13-2008, 01:31 PM

............what?

So, you would prefer social breakdown and anarchy?

ronmcdon

11-13-2008, 01:34 PM

I don't agree with a government bailout. as someone else said, let them go bankrupt. dissolve the union agreements, & cut overhead accordingly. No government bailout, does NOT equate to letting GM go belly up. I'm fairly certain that at the right price, someone will buy GM and replace their management accordingly.

Also union costs is one thing, but executives and management should also be axed if they're not performing. A bankrupcy and subsequent merger, should take care of this.

Cerebus bought Chrysler under not entirely different circumstances, and that seems to have worked out ok so far. I was hoping Cerebus would have the capital and know how to purchase GM and integrate the two. I actually like Cerebus' approach to managing Chrysler. Cut back unnecessary programs/factories/projects than aren't profitable. The same could be applied to GM.

We could continue to give another 25 billion (already gave that earlier this year), but I think that's just postponing their inevitable failure as company, at least under the current management. Where do you draw the line of when to stop, or should taxpayers act as the perpetual ATM for auto manufacturers?

I also don't buy the argument that GM shouldn't be held accountable for the troubles of the credit crunch & bad economy, etc. Everyone's taking a hit, but not every company is asking for a handout.

mRclARK1

11-13-2008, 01:36 PM

I agree with PHLIP basically.

However an improvement could be made in brining the unions under control. Some of the shit they pull and demand is just ridiculous... It's nearly impossible to fire someone for even the worst of complete incomptent fuck ups these days. Union says you can't.

Not saying they should be abolished, but they're getting seriously out of hand.

IE: A friend of mine here CANNOT fire an employee who (with zero welding training) took a welder and tac welded some access panels shut, rather than just putting some screws back in... Cause he "lost" them. He can't be fired though because it's only his SECOND reprimand in that "area". Three are required for a "termination"

His tac welding stupidity cost nearly a days worth of work to be lost at the facility, and an important function being held there had to be canceled, due to equipment that needed to be serviced could not be accessed by the repairmen when he was available for the job.

He also makes $20+ an hr. for a zero qualification job. Highly unionized out of control labor force usually = High wages for low skill work and manufacturing standards often fall as a result. Why do you think a lot of American cars sucked in their quality so bad for a long time. Many still do...

sillyvia13

11-13-2008, 01:49 PM

............what?

So, you would prefer social breakdown and anarchy?

Maybe... This ain't working... its CORRUPT TO THE FUCKING CORE!

I dont wish harm on anyone.. I am a hopeful person...But things will not ever get any better with this system.

If you research names of people in the Govt and look at what these bailouts do you'd be pissed.

Bush got 1 billion on the last one... no if and or buts... no ?? asked
Read into this bailouts...

I guess I have NEVER FUCKING ONCE be rewarded for failure, well besides the PRICELESS lesson a failure teaches you! but never once have I fucked up at work and got a bonu$... the world dont work like that well at least mine...

I am sick of hand outs..til I get one.. ya dig...
BUT YO!!!!!

CHANGE WILL COME!!!!!!!!
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://ri-ra.org/3socialists.jpg&imgrefurl=http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx%3Fs%3D178%26f%3D2531%26t%3D3249700&usg=__bLQvZpdfsOMkpLewPEdPEbvpKMo=&h=443&w=590&sz=43&hl=en&start=10&sig2=F69yboQ5Pdr64qOVt9FM_A&um=1&tbnid=5FTYnpxEJDGFvM:&tbnh=101&tbnw=135&ei=uJIcSdqiDZTQedi5pagG&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dobama%2Bsocialist%2Bo%26um%3D1%26hl%3 Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26hs%3Dlz3%26sa%3DN

s13dan

11-13-2008, 02:05 PM

JeremyR

11-13-2008, 02:15 PM

ughhh i need money. maybe the government should bail me out.

RJF

11-13-2008, 02:27 PM

Bush got 1 billion on the last one... no if and or buts... no ?? asked

What?

.

sillyvia13

11-13-2008, 02:40 PM

Bailout Bill: Full Text Of Plan (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/28/bailout-legislation-full_n_130063.html)

*edit, I cant find the link I read it from.. I will and will drop it back in...
They have 50 billion for auto makers...

its a hoax...

very interesting clip for ya all! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqvZwo2qhIo&eurl=http://www.trendsresearch.com/

sillyvia13

11-13-2008, 02:45 PM

drift freaq

11-13-2008, 03:01 PM

Greed runs this country and has for well over 100 years... This is what we have to show for it. Problems with no easy awners. There is no correct way to fix this now. Its IMPOSSIBLE to not have a downside. Think about it. I suppose its not really the auto makers faults, they didnt know the economy would snap like this... This is just going to show how much we really care about each other as americans, will we help one another? Or as said above be getting robbed by the people that need essentials for living.At this piont in my life im not proud to say im an american, i hope to see that if things get worse we can pull together and come out on top, a better country, then ill say im proud to be american and proud of what we stand for.

Ok there are just to many posts in this thread that are full of economic bullshit.

If you think greed is the only thing that runs this country, well then Obama would never have been elected.
For the people who think Bush got money on the bailout your an economic idiot and really need to go back to school and study economics, puts and calls, hedge funds, secured assets and a lot more. Otherwise you have no room to speak and quoting internet video's is the blind leading the blind.

Do I agree bailouts need to end? Yes, do I feel certain things do need to be done even if I do not like it? Yes.
I agreed with Phlip earlier in this thread because its true. GM and most of Detroit are managed by people who want to do what they think America wants. Not what America wants when it comes to cars.
This has been this way since the 1970's the first time U.S. Automakers got hit with a crisis and poor sales due their lack of understanding American consumers.
Unfortunately they let their own bullheadedness rule the day. They also got hogtied by the Unions. The Unions are doing them no favors. Hell Boeing got struck by Unions a month ago in the middle of this financial crisis, which was severely crippling Boeing's ability to make money. Fortunately they came to the table quickly and settled things.
Was it a bright move on the Unions part? No it was petty, it was I want something without thinking about the impact that most selfish Americans suffer from these days.
God forbid we got into a major war like in WWII because your selfish asses would not want to support the country. You all would be crying, why should I help the government, why should I help the corporations making the stuff that will will the war.

Fucking shit people, We are all in this. If these guys you suffer. Stop thinking its about Wall street, its about the current adminstration. Its fucking about the damn country. These companies are to large to let fail. The consequences would be catastrophic and would push us into a depression. Wooo hoo I want a depression because I am unhappy that I have to suffer. NOT!

You think people on Wall street are not suffering, you think people in these corporations are not suffering?
Where were you, when you were spending more on your credit card than you could afford which I actually saw lots of people in the 240 community doing to get put SR's in and whatnot. Everyone took advantage of the situation.

The automakers made their typical mistakes. Bail them out, with provisions that Phlip and I both said needed to be required. Move on and suffer a little but fuck. don't do it and we are all fucked. Oh and for the ones saying let it happen and suffer. Ya I hope you like walking because you will not even be able to afford your fucking old damn 240 or Z car or whatever.

Oh and stop reading that internet bullshit calling the bailout plan a Hoax. If your going to subscribe to conspiracy theory 101 just get the fuck out of this thread right fucking now.

40daws

11-13-2008, 03:14 PM

Phillip has killed this already.

I have read where the dealer network is bloated,sort of like the housing bubble, and roughly 3600 dealers need to close. These are all Domestic dealers they are talking about.
This won't have near the impact on the economy as the closing of a MANUFACTURER will, but does need to happen.

ronmcdon

11-13-2008, 03:21 PM

Ok, so lets say theoretically you do get the government to bail out GM. What then?

What's the long term solution to this? Pay an annual tribute of 50 bill to US automanufacters, no strings attached?

Brian

11-13-2008, 03:23 PM

They sell cars again.
People decide to spend money again.
Americans have faith in America.
etc...

SimpleS14

11-13-2008, 04:17 PM

I'd like to see GM and Ford survive. As for Chrysler, I'd like to see bits and pieces of them sold off and absorbed by other companies (or private interest).

The market changed at a drastic pace (literally days) that the Big 3 could not regroup in a timely manner.

I think the fundamental flaw lies in management and not preparing an infrastructure of scalability and flexibility. For example, Honda and Toyota and retool their factories with ease (mostly software driven) when they have to shift production from a truck to a car.

I honestly think UAW should die....its crazy what salaries some of these people get when COL (cost of living) is low. I do like they get benefits for higher education (tuition reimbursement)...but I don't know if a majority of them actually take advantage of that.

The big 3 tarnished there image for too long that the current generation hardly gives them a look when it comes to a new car.

I'm just wondering why there wasn't much focus on cars as much as trucks. Sure profit margins are not as big....but the bigger picture is market share mated to customer retention. It's crazy how most of the cars on the road are imports vs. domestic...heck my whole family owns nothing but imports.

As for the bailout...it should happen with some strict regulations and a drastic change to management across GM, FoMoCo, Chrysler and most importantly UAW.

Does anyone see UAW fading or being quasi-government?

Antihero983

11-13-2008, 04:20 PM

hmm ok...

Chrysler has fucked up and been bailed out once back in the Reagan days, so fuck them, they didnt learn and they failed.

GM: I say bail them out, but make them get rid of buick.

Ford:Eh sure why not, but make them get rid of Mercury.

Buick and Mercury have no place in today's automarket, and shoulve been phased out years ago.

HyperTek

11-13-2008, 05:05 PM

they should look into selling bonds, which would promise a vehicle or huge discount in the future after maturing.. That would help.. People may feel like purchasing bonds .. i dunno

DrtyRat

11-13-2008, 07:29 PM

F**king s**t people, We are all in this. If these guys you suffer. Stop thinking its about Wall street, its about the current administration. Its f**king about the damn country. These companies are to large to let fail. The consequences would be catastrophic and would push us into a depression. Wooo hoo I want a depression because I am unhappy that I have to suffer. NOT!

Couldn't have said it better. I wonder how many of the poster's who are saying let the big 3 fail, actually work for or have family/friends that are employed by them. The employees who do the grunt work, are not responsible, in the big picture, of the failure of the management to implement the production of sound products.
When it comes to the idea of bailouts, I'm w/BH, kinda. I hate handouts, and I don't feel like those who wanted to live the "lifestyles of the rich & famous" on a minimum-wage salary deserve to be bailed out. However, I know its necessary, in order for the country to "heal itself"(read:economically responsible people foot the bill for the idiots).

Str8 Rippin

11-14-2008, 01:31 PM

Gm will be having problems till like 2011 or something (too lazy to look it up) due to their obligations to their pension plan so even if we bail them out now it will still be a rough road ahead.

Phlip

11-14-2008, 02:25 PM

GOP to Detroit: Drop dead - Autos (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27720347/)

Y'all stock up on non-perishables and weapons.

sillyvia13

11-14-2008, 02:46 PM

GOP to Detroit: Drop dead - Autos (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27720347/)

Y'all stock up on non-perishables and weapons.

lol...
Don't forget a nice healthy pile of ammo.
And Water filters.

YouTube - ELIJAH CUMMINGS IS NO CHUMP! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kx5r0JmhDvY)

Matej

11-14-2008, 03:27 PM

How is it not illegal for someone to keep giving themselves billions of dollars in bonuses every year while in charge of a corporation that's too big to fail yet steadily heading towards bankruptcy, and then walk away with the money calling it a good run and expect others to clean up their mess?
In my opinion the first place the bailout money should be coming from is the pockets of those people.

SexPanda

11-14-2008, 03:45 PM

Either way I see us as being, to some degree, fucked in da butt.

1: millions lose jobs, economy falls face first, shit hits the fan, bam: no more us and a. (how we know it)
2: We bail out the big 3, thousands still lose jobs, economy almost goes face first, higher taxes to cover it, country is deeper into debt, and in 10 years we'll be in the same position because history repeats itself.

TurDz

11-14-2008, 07:03 PM

If the Government bails out the U.S. automakers, do you think they would do the same for Toyota if they got into trouble?? Toyota has brought tons of jobs into America (Of course not as much as the U.S. automakers, but still.....)

There's no way the government would ever bail out Toyota. Toyota's TPS system was designed for this exact situation of tough times. They designed their manufacturing system to be flexible and waste-free...I feel that all of their investment in quality/efficiency/improvement would be for nothing if their competition was simply bailed out.

This bailout reminds me of "distribution of wealth." Is this bailout loans or free money?

On the other hand....hardworking union workers shouldn't suffer because of bad executive decisions from the big 3.....tough call

Food for thought:
Editorials & Opinion | A questionable bailout of America's Big 3 automakers | Seattle Times Newspaper (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/editorialsopinion/2008388462_edit14bailout.html?syndication=rss)

duffman1278

11-14-2008, 07:09 PM

Its a tough call, I mean the consequences by not bailing them out would greatly hurt our market, which seems to go lower and lower with no end in sight.

But at the same time where does it end? First the banks which I believed needed it. But any way, the question is, who would be next? I forgot who said it but one analyst mentioned that in reality they shouldn't even be bailing out anyone, that companies should collapse if they get this bad.

However, I think they should due to the vast amount of jobs and impact that they play in our market. Its not a small portion.

Phlip

11-14-2008, 07:47 PM

As I think about this, I see the necessity for it, but I am a bit bitter...

If I am loaned money from a bank or credit card, I am to pay some interest in the repaying of those funds, no?
WHY THE FUCK would these companies not have to pay BACK the taxpayers for bailing their asses out?

iwishiwas-all*

11-14-2008, 08:06 PM

Should the Federal Government bailout the three US automakers?

Opinions?

yes, absolutely, but they should all be penalized, I am gonna jump out on a limb and say the suv='ed the downfall of america, and we are seeing it bite them in their asses..... why do you think im looking for a foreign job, talk about job security lol.

iwishiwas-all*

11-14-2008, 08:07 PM

GOP to Detroit: Drop dead - Autos (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27720347/)

Y'all stock up on non-perishables and weapons.

the downfall of america waits if detroit has to shut down.

sillyvia13

11-14-2008, 08:17 PM

YouTube - World Economy. RON PAUL on the Current Crisis. Sep 18. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THHji9BhvvM&feature=rec-HM-r2)

Phlip

11-14-2008, 08:19 PM

the downfall of america waits if detroit has to shut down.
That, Gabe, lies largely in all that it would take down with it... I think I mentioned it somewhere in this thread, piggybacking on something exitspeed had stated in another.

RJF

11-14-2008, 08:28 PM

ronmcdon

11-15-2008, 12:19 PM

What's wrong with them filing for Chapter 11 bankruptcy? The airlines have done it and survived.

Chapter 11 will allow them time to reorganize, renegotiate contracts with the unions and cut costs to try and become more efficient.

Agreed. I think Agenemnon mentioned this earlier, and I think this is the most strategic approach. The Unions are GM's biggest financial liability. More than anything else, Chapter 11 will give GM the opportunity to reduce their overhead and allow them a fair chance at being competitive in the auto industry. Have the government help them (or buy their stocks at discount) after they file bankruptcy and reorganize accordingly.

It's also best for the workers in the long run and the economy as well. They workers might not have the salaries and the benefits they're used to, but at least they still have their jobs for the time being. I think a lot of ppl here might have the misconception that filing for bankruptcy means going entirely belly-up, having to lay everyone in the company off, liquidate their assets to their debtors, etc but that's not necessarily true.

if you must bail someone out, at least do it at the right time.

OptionZero

11-15-2008, 12:36 PM

Declaring bankruptcy does not mean the company disappears, nor does it mean that there will be a sudden vacuum in jobs.

If the contracts disappear, then the union (if it has a modicum of logic) can re-negotiate on more reasonable terms.

This doesn't have to go on the taxpayers.

It should be on the heads on the unions.

Question for the economists:

Why do we need unions AND minimum wage?

It seems redundant, and in the long-run, creates just an additional layer of bureacracy which separate decision making from reality.

HyperTek

11-15-2008, 12:45 PM

whats the worlds prospective towards american cars? maybe they can try opening up more exporting of american cars??

sillyvia13

11-15-2008, 01:11 PM

whats the worlds prospective towards american cars? maybe they can try opening up more exporting of american cars??

I doubt anyone wants to buy anything from us...
We have a bad rap.
We have been killing people in middle east for a long time... not a good business trait. Not to mention our cars suck. We drive imported cars and BUY JDM! , we did it to ourself.

Dont get me wrong on my posts... I wish no ill will on any human, but our system is BUNK! too much money to be any care for humans.

If money was less a factor in life we'd be fine.
But thats not the way of the world at the moment.

I hope for CHANGE!
guess I gotta wait 4 years tho.

Agamemnon

11-15-2008, 02:06 PM

This doesn't have to go on the taxpayers.

It should be on the heads on the unions.

Yes. I'm not going to blame the UAW for all of GM troubles, but they're a signicant amount of dead weight. The UAW has to realize that strong-arming money out of GM is merely cutting off your nose to spite your face. The high salaries that the Unions demand well lead to their own demise.

Agamemnon

11-15-2008, 02:10 PM

whats the worlds prospective towards american cars? maybe they can try opening up more exporting of american cars??

The world already gets GM cars without the use of exportation. Ford and GM have euro/asian models that surpass what we get here.

It's not that they dont want an American car, it's that they dont want an American made car.

ronmcdon

11-15-2008, 05:05 PM

whats the worlds prospective towards american cars? maybe they can try opening up more exporting of american cars??

I think GM does ok in china and europe. China could be the biggest market in the future, it's relatively lax on regulations, and I think that's where it would count the most. They've even invested quite some in some of the Chinese car manufacturers themselves, buying lots of stock in Wulin, and/or having joint ownership of auto factories with some of the Chinese manufacturers. I think even some of the Buicks are built in China. I'm suprised that they haven't outsourced more of their manufacturing, given they have the resources, experience, and know-how.

The markets abroad are usually more limited. You might get Buick, Cadillac, Chevy (or the Vauxhaul equivalent), and maybe Saab. You don't get stuff like Pontiac, Saturn, GMC, etc, which makes sense because it's a bit redundant. You also get more use of conventional turbo-diesels in asia and europe, because they don't have crap like CARB and other absurd emissions regulations that we have in the US, or the whole CAFE thing.

I actually think GM would do okay, if they scaled back their operations in the US to the level they have in asia and europe.

exitspeed

11-17-2008, 01:00 PM

I think GM does ok in china and europe. China could be the biggest market in the future, it's relatively lax on regulations, and I think that's where it would count the most. They've even invested quite some in some of the Chinese car manufacturers themselves, buying lots of stock in Wulin, and/or having joint ownership of auto factories with some of the Chinese manufacturers. I think even some of the Buicks are built in China. I'm suprised that they haven't outsourced more of their manufacturing, given they have the resources, experience, and know-how.

The markets abroad are usually more limited. You might get Buick, Cadillac, Chevy (or the Vauxhaul equivalent), and maybe Saab. You don't get stuff like Pontiac, Saturn, GMC, etc, which makes sense because it's a bit redundant. You also get more use of conventional turbo-diesels in asia and europe, because they don't have crap like CARB and other absurd emissions regulations that we have in the US, or the whole CAFE thing.

I actually think GM would do okay, if they scaled back their operations in the US to the level they have in asia and europe.

In fact Buick is China's best selling brand.

YouTube - The U.S. Auto Industry and the Ripple Effect (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72cHfOKoA1c&eurl=http://www.autoblog.com/2008/11/17/gm-makes-case-for-aid-in-new-video-on-youtube/)

I'm sorry, but I just can't comprehend an argument about letting them burn.

People think things are bad now...The depression will look like a high point in history. It'll be so awesome when people are killing themselves left and right. So awesome. :goyou:

TheWolf

11-17-2008, 02:19 PM

Listen. I don't want to see them die but I refuse to let my tax dollars go to pay for some old GM retiree to get his ass wiped because he negotiated the best benefits package ever. $30/HR + benefits regardless of factory open or closed??!?! No. Enough is enough. Putting a GM car together ain't any harder than putting a hamburger together and the pay should reflect that. Unions are what is wrong with the country. You're there to do a job. How putting seats into a malibu between 8-5 equals GM should give you free health care till you die and give you retirement? That's socialist bullshit. You work on an assembly line!! A career assembly line worker is just that. It's like career janitor. At the end of 30 years, it's still same shit different day. Why should anyone reward your mediocrity? Stuff it. They should have been taking that creampuff gravey train pay and saving it instead of spending it on crap.

I hope GM says listen we're building cars for $13 an hour. Anyone who wants to work in an air conditioned factory for that all day then come on. We can train you in 2 days. Whether your union or not but this is what we're paying. Anyone who doesn't want that can go home. It's time those guys got a reality check.

sileighty83

11-17-2008, 03:10 PM

forget the bailout thats there fault for making crappy cars.. Japanese cars will always be better its just a fact. You can tell by the craftsmenship done to "J" cars v.s. US cars. US dosn't take things into consideration...Im not going to go into that but its true. This country has spent enough already.

I also saw a documentary on the us car market a while back and it said, that when Toyota came and visited Ford (at the start of ford motors) they carefully observed how ford made cars and worked and then applied there own techniques as well as improving on the way they created cars thus it made them a better car company then Ford back then as well.

ryguy

11-17-2008, 03:26 PM

I hope GM says listen we're building cars for $13 an hour. Anyone who wants to work in an air conditioned factory for that all day then come on. We can train you in 2 days. Whether your union or not but this is what we're paying. Anyone who doesn't want that can go home. It's time those guys got a reality check.

Quoted for truth. Unions were a good idea before United States labor laws. They serve no significant purpose today except to fuck things up.

forget the bailout thats there fault for making crappy cars.. Japanese cars will always be better its just a fact. You can tell by the craftsmenship done to "J" cars v.s. US cars. US dosn't take things into consideration...Im not going to go into that but its true. This country has spent enough already.

You obviously have not been in a General Motors vehicle in the past few years. I would take a Malibu over a Camry for interior quality any day of the week. The Camry I drove recently reminded me of "Grandpa's old Buick".

ronmcdon

11-17-2008, 03:28 PM

In fact Buick is China's best selling brand.

YouTube - The U.S. Auto Industry and the Ripple Effect (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72cHfOKoA1c&eurl=http://www.autoblog.com/2008/11/17/gm-makes-case-for-aid-in-new-video-on-youtube/)

I'm sorry, but I just can't comprehend an argument about letting them burn.

People think things are bad now...The depression will look like a high point in history. It'll be so awesome when people are killing themselves left and right. So awesome. :goyou:

I don't agree that they should go completely under either, but I do think given the nature of their problem and circumstances, (expensive union overhead, and dirt cheap stock prices that can't go much lower), it's in their best interest to file for chapter 11 first, dissolve their the union obligations, or any other existing contracts (vendors, customers, etc) that might be unprofitable for them, and start over. The actual bailout would consist of buying their stocks at dirt cheap afterwards, instead of some loan they might never be capable of paying back at all. Another option, as I mentioned before, is that if the price is right, someone might just gobble up gm without having the taxpayer spend a penny.

I think that would be much much more constructive in the long run, than tossing them 50 billion or whatever each year. I mean, we've given them money without strings attached before, and what became of that $$$. It didn't work in the past, and I see no support why it would work now. If we bail them out now, the way it is, they'll just come back asking for more a year or less down the road.

40daws

11-17-2008, 03:34 PM

GM pays roughly $71.00 hour including benefits per labor hour. Toyota $47.00 .
This is from NEWSWEEK. Time for some paycuts.

sileighty83

11-17-2008, 03:49 PM

Quoted for truth. Unions were a good idea before United States labor laws. They serve no significant purpose today except to fuck things up.

You obviously have not been in a General Motors vehicle in the past few years. I would take a Malibu over a Camry for interior quality any day of the week. The Camry I drove recently reminded me of "Grandpa's old Buick".

I have been in one, and I don't like them thats my... opinion. I think the designs are shit and the interior is crap IMO! :barf:

I was in one when I had to get a rental car because someone hit my 240sx. I traded it back in, in exchange ironically for a Camry...which I liked.

Matej

11-17-2008, 03:53 PM

ryguy

11-17-2008, 10:39 PM

I have been in one, and I don't like them thats my... opinion. I think the designs are shit and the interior is crap IMO! :barf:

I was in one when I had to get a rental car because someone hit my 240sx. I traded it back in, in exchange ironically for a Camry...which I liked.

You must be talking about a late model Malibu. You can't be talking about this gorgeous piece of engineering.

http://www.carbodydesign.com/archive/2006/11/23-chevrolet-malibu-preview/_2008-Chevrolet-Malibu-interior-lg.jpg

I just don't understand how the labor unions can live with themselves. They're setting up their own demise, how can they not know that?

SimpleS14

11-18-2008, 08:01 AM

Is this bailout loans or free money?

A loan.

But any way, the question is, who would be next?

Medical industry.

What's wrong with them filing for Chapter 11 bankruptcy? The airlines have done it and survived.

Chapter 11 will allow them time to reorganize, renegotiate contracts with the unions and cut costs to try and become more efficient.

I agreed...but you know the media will blow it out of proportion.

sileighty83

11-18-2008, 08:32 AM

You must be talking about a late model Malibu. You can't be talking about this gorgeous piece of engineering.

http://www.carbodydesign.com/archive/2006/11/23-chevrolet-malibu-preview/_2008-Chevrolet-Malibu-interior-lg.jpg

I just don't understand how the labor unions can live with themselves. They're setting up their own demise, how can they not know that?

^I must admit that it is a cool looking interior but man... my opinion still stands...thats just me I guess, just never been partial to American designs, although it looks like chevy is steppin their game up lol

RJF

11-19-2008, 11:11 AM

This explains alot.

http://blog.heritage.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/wm2135_chart1.jpg

exitspeed

11-19-2008, 11:23 AM

You must be talking about a late model Malibu. You can't be talking about this gorgeous piece of engineering.

http://www.carbodydesign.com/archive/2006/11/23-chevrolet-malibu-preview/_2008-Chevrolet-Malibu-interior-lg.jpg

I just don't understand how the labor unions can live with themselves. They're setting up their own demise, how can they not know that?

It's no use. No matter how good a car GM makes (CTS/CTS-V, Malibu, Vette, G8) some people will not buy them just because they are domestic.

Being so narrow minded takes a lot of practice and our country is pros.

Phlip

11-19-2008, 11:27 AM

You know, the points presented in this thread, in addition to what I have read around, have kinda swayed my opinion... I mean, I see where it is by their own fucking designs that they have failed. I also see that what they seek is a loan so they can CONTINUE to do the shit, as if it is the right thing to do and their failure is some kind of anomaly. The fact, though, is that a loan in this case would be more burden on us the taxpayers, to delay the inevitable, thusly shifting the ultimate REAL crash to be shouldered in total by our kids and/or grandkids later.
I am still not stepping all the way off of my original position, though...
Bail them out, but FORCE THEM, WITH A CONTRACT to shape up or fuck off. Limiting the amount of this money that sees the big mens' pockets, MAKE them present a model that shows them actually progressing, instead of continuing like a bunch of lumbering fucking idiots, and a real plan on what to do with the unions in order to make the situation workable from all angles, EVEN IF IT MEANS PAYCUTS ALL THE WAY DOWN THE LINE. I mean, yes, the unions can bitch and moan about money for their employees, but the fact remains that CUT pay is better than unemployment benefits, and DAMN sure better than NO pay at all.

drift freaq

11-19-2008, 11:36 AM

Ok guys, Can the U.S. Automakers make cars that U.S. citizens want to buy? Yes they can. What lies at the problem of this whole thing? Two things and two things only, both of which have been touched upon in this thread.
Management and labor, now the funniest thing is, you have Waggoner and the likes testifying before congress right now asking for all kinds of money. At the same time, Nardelli just testified and said Cerebus aka Chrysler would restrict executive pay and bonuses. What is the crack up is the Unions are doing and saying nothing about making concessions.
This is bullshit. Its not some of you tighten your belt, its all of you tighten your belt. Its like you don't seem to understand, if GM fails whats going to happen to those workers, no job!
Wow, you don't make concessions and drive the company out of business.
Yes Management is fucked. Waggoner is a idiot. Nardelli should not be running Chrysler. The guy at Ford seems to have more of a clue but is still jumping into the same boat.

damn phlip, you just posted pretty much the same thing I did in different words. LOL

Phlip

11-19-2008, 11:51 AM

I hate to sound this sometimes, but it came down to a "need vs deserve" thing, with a different twist to me...

Sure, a bailout is very necessary, but if EVERYONE down the lines; up to and including execs and union folks don't concede that they MUST give something into making this shit work and changing their model to one that doesn't just consume the money and drive it all back down to shit AGAIN, then they DO NOT FUCKING DESERVE IT. Fuck 'em, and anyone that looks like 'em. If THEY would let THEIR employees lives be ruined in that manner, then someone should tar, feather and string them up.

Matej

11-19-2008, 01:33 PM

It's no use. No matter how good a car GM makes (CTS/CTS-V, Malibu, Vette, G8) some people will not buy them just because they are domestic.

Being so narrow minded takes a lot of practice and our country is pros.
Same reason why some people will never buy imports.

I noticed GM vehicles lose half their value pretty much as soon as they leave the lot. You can seriously find last year's Corvettes and CTS's for half the price you would've bought them for new.

Phlip

11-19-2008, 01:40 PM

Same reason why some people will never buy imports.

I noticed GM vehicles lose half their value pretty much as soon as they leave the lot. You can seriously find last year's Corvettes and CTS's for half the price you would've bought them for new.

Chrysler products are (or were, I have not looked lately) worse than that.

mRclARK1

11-19-2008, 01:48 PM

It's sounding from the news like they won't get bailed out, so I guess we'll just see what happens.

I'm pretty much with PHLIP though. Bail them out, but they need to shape up as well. First step is get costs etc. in line and abolish the fucking unions. They serve no purpose now. Maybe allow unions to remain, but at least keep them in line. $30+ an hour to do work literally ANYONE can do? That's part of the problem. Money thrown into wages that are not deserved or earned.

GSXRJJordan

11-19-2008, 01:49 PM

You know, I was going to post a bunch in this thread after spending the last couple mornings looking over 'current events'...

... and then Phlip and Dave beat me to it. I was originally for it, but ripples be damned, they need to dissolve the UAW before we can give them any money - even then once you start giving government money to private companies, that's not just socialism...

That's National Socialism. Anyone remember that silly 4-letter word for National Socialism we used to have?

S14DB

11-19-2008, 01:51 PM

These were the same douche's that said they couldn't meet CAFE MPG standards cause people wanted SUV's and Trucks. That they knew the Market and Congress to butt out. Now they want Congress's help? Those CEO's better bend over and grab the lube...

Chevy Volt: Could GM Kill the Electric Car...Again? - U.S. News Rankings and Reviews (http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/daily-news/081118-Chevy-Volt-Could-GM-Kill-the-Electric-Car-Again-/)
Senator calls for 50-mpg mandate for Detroit to receive aid - Autoblog (http://www.autoblog.com/2008/11/17/senator-calls-for-50-mpg-mandate-for-detroit-to-receive-aid/)
Senator rips auto industry at bailout hearing - Nov. 18, 2008 (http://money.cnn.com/2008/11/18/news/economy/auto_hearings/?postversion=2008111815)
Helicopter Association International - Rotor.com (http://www.rotor.com/Default.aspx?tabid=510&newsid905=60186)

Phlip

11-19-2008, 01:57 PM

SexPanda

11-19-2008, 01:58 PM

These were the same douche's that said they couldn't meet CAFE MPG standards cause people wanted SUV's and Trucks. That they knew the Market and Congress to butt out. Now they want Congress's help? Those CEO's better bend over and grab the lube...

QFT.

50MPG? The technology is there. Its relatively cheap, and honestly: drop the trucks and suv's and what not. Well, dont drop them, but damn, if they're not selling, cut back production.... alot.

They did this to themselves. I read somewhere... Maybe on here, that while GM was putting a billion dollars into the Hummer line, Toyota was putting a billion dollars into making the Prius. You can clearly see who had the foresight.

Matej

11-19-2008, 02:01 PM

The "Big Three" have actually been trying to do something about the unions. They saw how much of their spendings were going towards unions, versus automakers building cars in other countries, and they knew they wouldn't be able to keep up for long.

Unions are one of the main reasons why domestic automakers have been outsourcing jobs. It's a two way street when there are cries to support the American worker. If it's a union worker, in essence he or she only hurts America and its workers in the long run.

There have even been White House meetings on this matter, calling for reform of unions, but it seems that nothing has been done about it, and now it's too late.

GSXRJJordan

11-19-2008, 02:05 PM

Jeff, can we PLEASE leave Godwin's law out of this one?

PLEEEEEEASE?

Haha, I didn't think about it in this case (because the term actually applies), but that is funny.

Seriously though, as a young person (in a community of mostly young people), how do we feel about moving closer and closer to the socialism we've tried so hard as a nation to fight? I don't like Canada because it's cold and they have 40%+ taxes... I don't like Europe because they don't speak English and have 40%+ taxes... etc.

I think I have to side with Ron Paul on this one... we could suffer for a year and have a solid base to rebuild, or we could socialize everything and suffer for the next 20.

mRclARK1

11-19-2008, 02:06 PM

I kinda wish I'd taken bets on the whole SUV deal... I said the bottom was gonna fall outta that shit. Everyone kept telling me that SUV's would be all we'd see on the road in 15 years. lolz. I can't believe with all the historical failures of socialism, people are still willing to entertain the idea of it.

Canada's not that cold once you get used to it. haha

The taxes are another story...

TurDz

11-19-2008, 02:11 PM

A slap in the face to taxpayers? (http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=3906861&cl=10744205&ch=4226713&src=news)

mRclARK1

11-19-2008, 02:28 PM

A slap in the face to taxpayers? (http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=3906861&cl=10744205&ch=4226713&src=news)

Some CEO here just got a "compensation" package of 320 million. :ugh:

I wouldn't even WANT that much money and assets.

Mi Beardo es Loco

11-19-2008, 02:43 PM

NOOOOOO

If it goes through where will it stop? If a struggling buisness that can't produce a decent product goes to the government where should the government say yes or say no?
Second, a bailout to the auto industry would continue to failure of these companies. This time it wouldn't be there money, it would be ours.
If you think we have economic troubles today, consider the effects of nationalizing an industry of this size, but now run by bureaucrats issuing production quotas to fit five-year plans to meet politically mandated fuel-efficiency standards - to lift us to the sunny uplands of the coming green utopia.
That just can't happen.
I'm all for bailing out necessary businesses such as gas companies, water companies, and banks from going bankrupt and depriving millions of Americans essential living conditions but bailing out a company because they can't make a decent product is where this country has to draw the line.

ronmcdon

11-19-2008, 03:09 PM

I don't think the problem is so much about producing products that sell. At the very least, Ford and GM are trying to improve. To be fair they have made progress, even if they're playing catch up with imports. A good deal of their products still sell ok in domestic and overseas markets. Overhead and mismanagement is probably the biggest problem. If they reduce their overhead (for unions and executives alike), shrink their operations more rapidly, then they could get by with less revenue.

I totally I agree a 'no-strings attached' bailout approach sets a terrible precedence. You have to draw the line somewhere. At the very least, I would enjoy watching some executive heads roll, and union terms re-negotiated (if not dropped completely) to more realistic standards that reflect what GM can actually afford.

Mi Beardo es Loco

11-19-2008, 03:15 PM

I don't think the problem is so much about producing products that sell. Overhead and mismanagement is probably the biggest problem. If they reduce their overhead (for unions and executives alike), then they could get by with less revenue.

I totally I agree a 'no-strings attached' bailout approach sets a terrible precedence. You have to draw the line somewhere.
did you hear the release yesterday? they said that because the business that the executives at the big 3 are all but going bankrupt that means they can't get bonuses this year. well whhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. I thought bonuses are when you're doing a GOOD job!!! Please don't tell me the execs got a bonus last year. It was clear then that they weren't doing well.

HyperTek

11-19-2008, 04:36 PM

watching inside edition, they said the CEOs who where meeting with the government, all flew in private lear jets... I guess they told em if they where willing to sell their jets and fly back commercial, none of em raised their hands.

nvm: someone already posted it

slidingsky

11-19-2008, 08:51 PM

I don't think the problem is so much about producing products that sell. At the very least, Ford and GM are trying to improve. To be fair they have made progress, even if they're playing catch up with imports. A good deal of their products still sell ok in domestic and overseas markets. Overhead and mismanagement is probably the biggest problem. If they reduce their overhead (for unions and executives alike), shrink their operations more rapidly, then they could get by with less revenue.

That's the thing I don't get with Ford, they have some world market cars that are far better looking and more efficient than what we have here, yet the only thing you hear from them are hybrid this hybrid that.

You can tell that GM is looking to their outside shares with some of their "new" cars but I just hope it isn't too little too late.

Chrysler..... Sell Jeep before you fold.

ronmcdon

11-19-2008, 11:00 PM

did you hear the release yesterday? they said that because the business that the executives at the big 3 are all but going bankrupt that means they can't get bonuses this year. well whhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. I thought bonuses are when you're doing a GOOD job!!! Please don't tell me the execs got a bonus last year. It was clear then that they weren't doing well.

agreed, they ought to consider themselves fortunate they still have their jobs. I think even their annual salaries should not be a fixed amount, but reflect the company's actual performance.

It's absurd GM ceo Rick Waggoneer ought to be making 28 million annual (as per the video) when the company he's working for is on the brink of collapse. No wonder people are skeptical about bailouts such as this, and unions are reluctant to compromise their benefits. GM stockholders need a reality check.

ronmcdon

11-19-2008, 11:17 PM

That's the thing I don't get with Ford, they have some world market cars that are far better looking and more efficient than what we have here, yet the only thing you hear from them are hybrid this hybrid that.

You can tell that GM is looking to their outside shares with some of their "new" cars but I just hope it isn't too little too late.

Chrysler..... Sell Jeep before you fold.

I'm no expert, but I think a lot of it has to do with what differences consumers demand in different markets, and there might be some truth to this. Americans prefer larger cars, fuel cost in europe, car tax more expensive in Europe, smaller parking in Europe is more expensive, etc.

Not sure about GM, but I do think it's Ford's intention, as a part of their restructuring plan, to have a single lineup be sold to both the US and Europe in effort to cut costs. Not sure how comprehensive this will play out (don't think we'll get something like the Ka), but at least I think its a move in the right direction if it occurs at all.

There are also different emissions requirements between europe and the US. China probably has less stringent (if any at all) emissions or crash test safety laws at all probably. GM and Ford actually offer very capable turbo-diesels, but it's not going to be sold in the US, say if it fails CARB. It's probably cheaper to build a hybrid from scratch.

It makes sense to develop different products for different markets.

Phlip

11-21-2008, 09:57 AM

SlideWell

11-21-2008, 11:29 AM

ronmcdon

11-21-2008, 12:34 PM

I am leaning more and more against the bailout personally now:
Why We Shouldn't Bail Out GM | Corporate Accountability and WorkPlace | AlterNet (http://www.alternet.org/workplace/107789/why_we_shouldn%27t_bail_out_gm/)

Interesting article. Yes, extending employment welfare, given the times, might be a much more cost effective and responsible solution vs. continuing to throw money at the US automakers.

To be fair, I think the American government itself is to take some blame for not demanding more accountability on the manufacturers in the past. I had no idea it had been going on for so long, and how much taxpayer's $ was actually already wasted. I wonder why the 25 bill bailout somehow is a big deal now, when it the same thing has happened before in the past?

Phlip

11-21-2008, 12:38 PM

Interesting article. Yes, extending employment welfare, given the times, might be a much more cost effective and responsible solution vs. continuing to throw money at the US automakers.

To be fair, I think the American government itself is to take some blame for not demanding more accountability on the manufacturers in the past. I had no idea it had been going on for so long, and how much taxpayer's $ was actually already wasted. I wonder why the 25 bill bailout somehow is a big deal now, when it the same thing has happened before in the past?
Yeah, that was what worked so much, based on what I was reading since my first posts on the discussion... It is kinda like bailing out a repeat felon, you KNOW he'll be back in a week for some similar shit.

40daws

11-21-2008, 04:21 PM

Thanks to Philip for that link. It opened my eyes . I love this from that link :

Unemployment compensation should be expanded to ensure those losing their jobs will not lose their houses or their health insurance. Helping people on that scale will not be cheap, but helping them by propping up corporate losers is infinitely more costly: sooner or later people will find other employment, but the automobile companies will never turn a profit.

Best thing I have heard yet.

ronmcdon

11-21-2008, 06:21 PM

Now apparently the Chinese auto manufacturers are considering GM and Ford.
Not sure exactly how much interests they plan to acquire, but fun read nonetheless

SAIC, Dongfeng said to buy GM, Chrysler assets (http://www.huliq.com/3169/73122/saic-dongfeng-said-buy-gm-chrysler-assets)

"Under the sway of the global financial crisis, the U.S. auto giants General Motors and Chrysler LLC are tottering on the brink of collapse. Japan's Toyota Motor was previously rumored to buy them out, but now Chinese carmakers SAIC and Dongfeng are also said to have plans to acquire the two U.S. auto companies, reported the 21st Century Business Herald today.

On November 15, a senior official of China's Ministry of Industry and Information Technology -- the state regulator of China's auto industry -- told reporters that the auto manufacturing giants in China, such as Shanghai Automotive Industry Corporation (SAIC) and Dongfeng Motor Corporation, have the capability and intention to buy some assets of the two crisis-plagued American automakers.

An industry analyst noted that the global financial crisis has forced Chinese manufacturers to retool and upgrade themselves in order to meet and survive the challenge. Many enterprises dependent on low-value-added manufacturing will be driven out of the new wave of competition by technically innovative and financially sound rivals. It would be much easier now for strong Chinese automakers to go global by acquiring some assets of their U.S. counterparts in times of crisis.

In the global acquiring process, Chinese automakers can start with buying out the OEM projects and Chinese ventures of some global carmakers such as GM and Chrysler, said an expert from Deloitte & Touche accounting firm.

In the coming two years China is likely to see a few of its large Chinese automakers and other manufacturing enterprises set a precedent for achieving globalization by acquiring global companies, just like SAIC or Dongfeng's possible acquisition of troubled GM or Chrysler."

SHIFT_*grind*

12-02-2008, 02:36 PM

Automaker execs say they'll accept $1 pay.

Automaker execs say they'll accept $1 pay - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/12/02/big.three.bailout.plans/index.html?eref=rss_latest)

HyperTek

12-02-2008, 02:41 PM

for that salary, im guessing after a while he might start slacking/loosing interest in taking their jobs seriously, but then again they could probably still have enough saved up from prior years to not effect em too much.

JohnnyDrfiter22

12-02-2008, 03:17 PM

The CEO's last year made 20mil, so for them to recieve a 1$ slary aint shit! I think those compnaies need to stop paying there CEOs so damn much and put it back into the compnay, save the extra dollars, pay your overhead, pay more wages....

My question is this, for you stock watchers and buyers would you buy stocks of these companies if the governement bailed them out....or buy if they dont bail.....

S14DB

12-02-2008, 03:34 PM

$1 in pay and $20million in bonuses...

40daws

12-02-2008, 04:20 PM

Watching this one economist on CNN and he asked the rest of the panel why FORD was even there (Washington) ,they are not broke and not going broke soon. He also said that Chrysler should not be there since they became a private company.

TheWolf

12-02-2008, 04:41 PM

Yeah, that was what worked so much, based on what I was reading since my first posts on the discussion... It is kinda like bailing out a repeat felon, you KNOW he'll be back in a week for some similar shit.

The same could be applied to the poor and unemployed. When will people realize giving the poor money doesn't work. The reason they're poor is that they've made poor choices in life when it relates to money. Extending the free money train isn't the answer. The amount of cash here is staggering but giving it to people won't solve why someone can't pay their mortgage. It's like the lottery. Poor people spend on avg 5% of their income playing of which upto 40% goes to the state for taxes. The rest is dived up between the pot and education etc.

If anything there should be somewhat of a manhatten project done to figure out why kids think being stupid is cool. In north florida here 1 in 3 kids drops out of highschool. I hear it's worse elsewhere. I mean lets stand back and look at this. If this continues for any length of time. 1 in 3 americans will be able to vote and won't be able to pass a highschool GED. can you imagine a nation full of ignorant fucktwits who would be unemployable and would vote for whoever would make smackdown and UFC free on PPV.

Fix that first before GM. I can walk. I can be surrounded by cheap jap cars that get good gas mileage. I can't stand to be surrounded by idiots.

98s14inaz

12-02-2008, 04:56 PM

98s14inaz

12-02-2008, 04:58 PM

Matej

12-02-2008, 05:51 PM

What I don't like is how the automakers are basically blackmailing everyone.

GM announced that they need an immediate 4$ billion, otherwise they won't last until New Year's and will drag down the entire industry with them.

Why would they wait until now to say something like this? If it's true, I'm sure they knew about it long ago.

It almost feels as if the automakers are just trying to take advantage of the current economic scare, and they were so close to free money that they could almost taste it, now it's not looking as certain, but after coming so close, now they would have a hard time letting go empty handed, so they're attempting to corner the government into giving them the money.

98s14inaz

12-02-2008, 06:50 PM

SimpleS14

12-05-2008, 07:35 PM

IMO....I wouldn't mind seeing GM drastically shrink.

Chevy
Cadillac
Saturn (outlet for flare & style)
Buick (overseas in China)

Phlip

12-05-2008, 07:42 PM

I was reading a column today, written by someone I will not name, lest this will become a political discussion and I would have to lock it.
The big 3 now want 34billion, not just 25 anymore.
GM, for example, would be getting 18 of that. The point that further sealed this for me was
2. You could buy all the common shares of stock in General Motors for less than $3 billion. Why should we give GM $18 billion or $25 billion, or anything? Take the money and buy the company! (You're going to demand collateral anyway if you give them the "loan," and because we know they will default on that loan, you're going to own the company in the end as it is. So why wait? Just buy them out now.)
Now, as I was in the gym, I kept thinking about this (I leave work and go straight to the gym, this was the last thing I read leaving work). If the stock to these companies could be bought ALL THE WAY UP for less than the amount of the bailout they're begging for, why not DO THAT?!!?

... no, wait on it.

See, once the companies have been bought out, we oust the Hummer and other fucking useless automobiles, invest in cars that are both efficient and actually worth a shit in the real world. We ALSO fire the executives who have us in this shit now. Next? Find yourself a masters grad who can do their job better than they can, with common fucking sense, for a NO BONUSES EVER, say $100k annually? NOW, do not lay off ONE SINGLE WORKER!!! Stop using those factories to make Hummers, Excursions and fucking Grand Cherokees, use them to make trains for speed rails, something for an actually WORKING public transit system, which helps to free us of needing to depend on driving everywhere.
This saves EVERY job (except for the ones that we NEED to shitcan) and will surely add create more.

... anyone care to offer another perspective?

bardabe

12-05-2008, 10:07 PM

murda-c

12-05-2008, 10:12 PM

I vote that we take the mingers who work for gm and put them to work like phlip said, and the fit women get to work at strip clubs.

i'm sure there aren't alot of them at a factory anyway.

9hank9

12-06-2008, 12:33 AM

Automaker execs say they'll accept $1 pay - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/12/02/big.three.bailout.plans/index.html?eref=rss_latest)

the thing is, all of the execs probably have millions of shares in their companies that are now worth very little... they want the company to turn it around so they can sell off and get some of their $$$ back

SochBAT

12-06-2008, 02:35 AM

Word is leaked and rumors are spreading. There might be a possible buyout of the Big3 from Japanese auto makers. I honestly think that'd be a great idea.

One big thought that kept springing up in my mind is their business plans. In years previous, why haven't they made a shift in efficiency as other automakers have?

No bailout. intercontinental sourcing of labor/parts, matching the wages of other automakers, namely Toyota.

Step up to bat with a fucking business plan. Not sure if its been posted, i'm sure it has, but the Big3 has SHIT for a business plan when they appeared before congress. No plan at all. Why the fuck do you deserve a fucking bailout when you've got nothing planned for it?

Releasing models from other makers, such as the Lotus Europa, which is the 'latest' Dodge North American release, should have been done a LONG time ago.

FUCK do I hate the "American" automotive market. Always with the Large and Fancy Frills and shit.

The ONE thing i tip my hat off to is their smart driving, i forget the name, but it switches from 4 cyl to 8cyl when you switch to that mode? I think it was Caddy, but again, i'm not sure. I haven't had a chance to really open this thread up but I've been watching this news like a fucking hawk.

dynamicck

12-06-2008, 03:09 AM

Whats so sad... these BIG 3 companies make their cars nicer overseas.
GM and Ford overseas is badass.
Here in the states...they suck balls.

I STILL would drive a Ford Cosworth!

Phlip

12-06-2008, 06:01 AM

Phlip what the fuck is an intelligent individual such as yourself doing over in the boonies of NC, and not somewhere important bitch slapping one filthy rich stupid CEO and Political leader at a time?
"Picking the wrong major in haste," don't do it kids. FWIW, YOU were in the boonies when you were here, I am not. Sure, it's no LA for point of comparison, but please don't make us out to be a state full of shitkickers and nothing more.

Step up to bat with a fucking business plan. Not sure if its been posted, i'm sure it has, but the Big3 has SHIT for a business plan when they appeared before congress. No plan at all. Why the fuck do you deserve a fucking bailout when you've got nothing planned for it?

The ONE thing i tip my hat off to is their smart driving, i forget the name, but it switches from 4 cyl to 8cyl when you switch to that mode? I think it was Caddy, but again, i'm not sure. I haven't had a chance to really open this thread up but I've been watching this news like a fucking hawk.
It has been mentioned, how they basically just show up "hey, we NEED this money to pay our employees and stuff... Wait, what do you mean you want to know how we'll NOT fuck it off again?"

Displacement on demand, or active fuel management, very smart idea... Sad is how even IT came about in like 81 or 84, I forget which, and was VERY sparingly used until gas prices started to get stupid around 04 or so and everyone was scrambling to not lose their money to 40 MPG stock Civics.

Oh well, I am with but 3 opinions, let them file chapter 11 and figure the shit out themselves, let them sell themselves to the highest bidding competitor, or as I said in my last post BUY THE FUCKING COMPANY NOW for 3 billion instead of costing taxpayers 11 times that while they continue to fuck off the money.

g6civcx

12-06-2008, 06:22 AM

Background: GM and their suppliers are some of my biggest clients. I don't work with them directly but my coworkers do. If GM and all their friends closed today, I would notice a big hit in our revenues.

I studied GM many many years ago in business school in the 90s. You don't need an MBA to know that GM's business model was failing and has been for a very long time.

Recommendation: Let GM fail. Some other company will take up the market shares.

We should promote science and technology, but if the market does not want a particular product, we should not force the public to subsidise a failing infrastructure.

My personal reaction: I still support GM through GMPP as much as I possibly can. Nonetheless, I am ready to go to aftermarket vendors should GMPP fold.

SimpleS14

12-06-2008, 08:10 AM

I was reading a column today, written by someone I will not name, lest this will become a political discussion and I would have to lock it.
The big 3 now want 34billion, not just 25 anymore.
GM, for example, would be getting 18 of that. The point that further sealed this for me was

Now, as I was in the gym, I kept thinking about this (I leave work and go straight to the gym, this was the last thing I read leaving work). If the stock to these companies could be bought ALL THE WAY UP for less than the amount of the bailout they're begging for, why not DO THAT?!!?

... no, wait on it.

See, once the companies have been bought out, we oust the Hummer and other fucking useless automobiles, invest in cars that are both efficient and actually worth a shit in the real world. We ALSO fire the executives who have us in this shit now. Next? Find yourself a masters grad who can do their job better than they can, with common fucking sense, for a NO BONUSES EVER, say $100k annually? NOW, do not lay off ONE SINGLE WORKER!!! Stop using those factories to make Hummers, Excursions and fucking Grand Cherokees, use them to make trains for speed rails, something for an actually WORKING public transit system, which helps to free us of needing to depend on driving everywhere.
This saves EVERY job (except for the ones that we NEED to shitcan) and will surely add create more.

... anyone care to offer another perspective?

Sounds OK....but you're forgetting market value is just a bit of what the company's worth really is. Sure, buy them up....but be prepared to pay off the excessive amount of debt and expenses entailed to closing up factories/dealers and buyouts.

Implementing a public transit system is more of a city/state gov't responsibility. Sure this company can supply the parts, but they do not design the infrastructure.

exitspeed

12-06-2008, 09:29 AM

I am avoiding this topic intentionally.

BTW, they gov ok'd the $15 billion.

Most of it will go to Chrysler and GM. Ford will only need the money if the other two go under.

HalveBlue

12-06-2008, 10:19 AM

HyperTek

12-08-2008, 12:28 AM

so now the canadian branches are asking the Canadian government for money??

Ford, GM and Chrysler Seek $6.8 Billion Government Loan from Canada - Carscoop (http://carscoop.blogspot.com/2008/12/ford-gm-and-chrysler-seek-68-billion.html)
Having already appealed to the U.S. Congress for an emergency bailout, Detroit's Big Three are now stretching their hands across the border to Canada seeking billions of dollars in loans and credit lines. Ford Motor Company delivered its plan to the federal and Ontario governments on Friday detailing a request for access to a "stand-by" line of credit of up to $2 billion to be used "only if the current economic crisis worsens".

luckvx

12-08-2008, 01:45 AM

yes only cause if they dont it will cost millions of jobs

Antihero983

12-08-2008, 10:07 AM

GM needs to....

at the very least get rid of Hummer, Buick, and GMC. Yes GMC. why? because chevy makes trucks, and the luxury suv thing is handled by Caddy. Heavy Duty? the make heavy duty chevys.

Ford needs to....
AXE MERCURY ALL READY. need I say more?

Chrysler needs to.....
Die.

imotion s14

12-08-2008, 11:08 AM

If a company is evaluated as "too big to fail," then in my opinion there should be some kind of laws and practices set in place to help prevent mismanagement of these companies, and mainly to prevent situations like this from happening.

OR HOW ABOUT THEY JUST MAKE IT ILLEGAL TO HAVE A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF MARKET CAPITALIZATION!

This government can't even run a simple retirement fund. Yet some how they'll know what's best for an industry that is very capital intensive? :keke:

imotion s14

12-08-2008, 11:25 AM

This shit's ridiculous.

It's like every MAJOR corporation is built like a house of cards.

What.the.Fuck?!

Congress is giving out money like it's growing on trees bailing these fuckers out. Oh wait...

But you know what? The U.S. is fucked either way. These corporations are so huge, that their collapse would prove disastrous for the US economy.

But pumping billions of dollars into failing businesses is a recipe for disaster too.

Either way, folks, you're fucked!

Indeed.

No company is too big to fail. The politicians and the media cheerleaders keep saying it over and over again. The majority of them don't have a clue how the economy works. Don't have a clue about the destructive monetary policies set forth by the central banks. For nearly 2 decades, the instant that there is some sign of recession, the central bankers would cut interest rates to keep the bubble from popping.

And besides that, the country is flat broke. How are we gonna pay for all these bailouts? Added it all up and you're looking at something like 6-8 trillion over the next decade.

There is nothing to government can do to stop the economy from collapsing. All they're doing is tossing OUR money down a bottomless pit. They're trying to get us to borrow more money, to spend more money, to prop up bad businesses and people who lived the good life on borrowed money.

All the "plans" they're attempting to do has been done before. Yet we keep trying the same things over and over again expecting different results. The Japanese created a massive public works program and propped up "zombie" companies after their bubble economy burst in the late 80s and they still haven't fully recovered from that.

All they're doing is to prop up all the irresponsible companies and people who at the detriment of the companies who's business was sound and people who lived within their means. We're the ones who get fucked. But the government is hell bent on spreading the misery to everyone.

Everything being done is to stop the symptoms. When we get sick, our immune system responds to invading germs by increasing body temp and releasing white blood cells to kill off the infection. No one wants to have a fever or feel sick but it has to happen in order to fight off the real threat. Taking meds to reduce the symptoms only prolongs the infection.

That's what's happening now. The market's cure is a severe albeit short recession. There is a liquidity problem but the government is hell bent on treating the symptoms and making it last longer.

TheWolf

12-08-2008, 09:03 PM

I would appreciate it if my generation wasn't faced with digging the country out of debt..

beeracing s14

12-08-2008, 09:29 PM

yes they are worth bailing out if they promise that they will flock the streets with these..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Po4i0HHrAWA

Matej

12-09-2008, 07:08 PM

http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/6012/bailoutyk2.jpg

HalveBlue

12-10-2008, 06:36 AM

sillyvia13

12-10-2008, 07:02 AM

Why wasnt I bailed out?
Where do I sign up?

This shit is LAME!!!!!!!
FAILURE! is to fail, not to almost fail and get rewarded...
fuck if we treated our kids like this...
they'd never learn to walk... we'd be fucking carrying 20 yr old kid like 2 yr olds....
fuck this friggin lame ass shit bailing out RICH FUCKS!
Sorry I might have used a f word.

ronmcdon

12-10-2008, 02:53 PM

^^^HHAHAHAA. Instant classic!

You know what I really want to know?

What steps are all these corporations and banks taking to make sure this situation doesn't reoccur in the future?

So far all I've been hearing is give these businesses money and they'll promise not to fuck up again.

Okay. But exactly how they'll prevent this stuff from happening again in the future hasn't been explained by anybody.

I think you've already answered your own question (assuming it wasn't rhetorical to begin with). There is no accountability whatsoever. History will repeat itself in the not so distant future. You can thank Washington for that.

They might as well crown Rick Waggoner emperor of the United States.

mobilesuit818

12-10-2008, 09:40 PM

I think they should feed the 3 USA car makers to anyone that wants to buy them. (i.e toyota, honda, nissan, etc)

With those Union peeps working for them will get pink'd with the quickness.

Just proves that Unions dont work....

SochBAT

12-10-2008, 10:13 PM

All the union does is pay the folks that get to sit happy and do jack shit.

Check out the retention rate of Import Makers in the US as compared to American makers.

Shits gonna hit the fan, and our generation are the only ones in the room.

ryguy

12-10-2008, 10:22 PM

You guys realize that this is a loan, and that once the Big 3 get the fucking unions off their back they'll be making a hefty profit, don't you?

SochBAT

12-10-2008, 10:36 PM

Which means never.

ryguy

12-10-2008, 10:39 PM

Which means never.

Zing, you got me there. Really though, it's hard to believe that the largest automaker in the world can't turn a profit if they ditch saab, pontiac, and saturn and get some major concessions from the labor unions. The labor unions are agreeable to matching the wages the import companies are paying.

SochBAT

12-10-2008, 10:54 PM

They do very well for themselves overseas, check the numbers. But when they withhold SO MUCH DAMN POTENTIAL from the states, then they officially suck.

There are a number of cars they SHOULD have brought stateside to make up for those damn SUV's they're lugging around.

ryguy

12-10-2008, 11:09 PM

In their defense, Saturn has the Astra and the Vectra (aura) and Pontiac had the Monaro and has the Commodore, and they are two of the divisions GM wants to axe.

Say what you want about the Volt, but with that and the Chevy Cruze coming I see a turnaround being possible.

S14DB

12-11-2008, 12:09 AM

Say what you want about the Volt, but with that and the Chevy Cruze coming I see a turnaround being possible.

So we have to bail them out till 2011?

Phlip

12-11-2008, 02:03 PM

Bailout for the Big Three stalls in Senate - Autos- msnbc.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28166218)

98s14inaz

12-11-2008, 05:13 PM

You guys realize that this is a loan, and that once the Big 3 get the fucking unions off their back they'll be making a hefty profit, don't you?

So are mortgages, credit cards, and auto loans. How many of us are planning on paying those off anytime soon.

HyperTek

12-11-2008, 09:39 PM

ford needs to bring us the focus rs
http://images.worldcarfans.com/2008/4/7/9080407.003/9080407.003.1M.jpg
I know its got that "Racer boy" looks, but its got its roots in rally racing.

and stop with all these alterations of the mustang and same goes for GM with teh new camaro and chrysler jumping on the gun with the Challenger.. "Oh lets build a car to compete with the other crapass company!!"

RJF

12-11-2008, 09:52 PM

Bailout for the Big Three stalls in Senate - Autos- msnbc.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28166218)

I guess the unions aren't serious about helping the Big 3. Time for Chapter 11 bankruptcy.

Matej

12-11-2008, 09:57 PM

Union workers would rather lose their jobs than receive lower wages. I guess each one of them is really confident he or she won't be among the ones let go.

They truly don't deserve to be bailed out, if they're dumb enough to fail themselves like this.

S14DB

12-11-2008, 10:06 PM

Bailout for the Big Three stalls in Senate - Autos- msnbc.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28166218)

Update: Auto industry bailout plan dies in the Senate - Autos- msnbc.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28166218/)

It's dead...

HyperTek

12-11-2008, 10:18 PM

so what do you guys think? if one or two of the manufactures gets knocked out, that could help one of them recover since then that rival company would be out of the market?

SimpleS14

12-11-2008, 10:28 PM

so what do you guys think? if one or two of the manufactures gets knocked out, that could help one of them recover since then that rival company would be out of the market?

Chrysler will dissolve or have only key and viable assets picked up by private investors or a foreign auto company.

I don't see Ford or GM helping each other in that respect.

Ford is in a better position right now out of all the three brands and GM has potential once they trim the brands.

Countless times again I will say this.....UAW needs to be axed.

ki_JDM_ds

12-11-2008, 11:22 PM

Bailout is no go. Sorry to those who work in/around Big 3

LIVE: Bailout bill fails in the Senate - Autoblog (http://www.autoblog.com/2008/12/11/bailout-bill-likely-to-fail-in-the-senate/)

ronmcdon

12-11-2008, 11:28 PM

Update: Auto industry bailout plan dies in the Senate - Autos- msnbc.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28166218/)

It's dead...

fun read. from reading that link, seems like the reason it didn't pass was because uaw wasn't willing to give up some of their costly benefits. I think thats a good thing. Either the unions concede more of their expensive demands, or Ch.11 forces them out of the picture even further. I see this as a win-win situation. I agree with the Republican senate on this one.

More likely than not, I predict the UAW will concede and a revised bill will pass. I think the big 3 will make it, for better or worse.

drftwerks

12-11-2008, 11:34 PM

so what, all three get money, then they continue to build more cars than they can sell?

ryguy

12-11-2008, 11:37 PM

FUCK FUCK FUCK!!! WHAT IS THE UAW THINKING? They're as crazy as Rod Blagojevich. "We'll see our jobs disappear before we take a wage cut! THEY WILL NEVER BEAT THE ALMIGHTY UNION!"

More likely than not, I predict the UAW will concede and a revised bill will pass. I think the big 3 will make it, for better or worse.

This vote was it. The issue can't be brought to a vote again until congress reconvenes in March. It's done.

Phlip

12-11-2008, 11:44 PM

I guess the unions aren't serious about helping the Big 3. Time for Chapter 11 bankruptcy.

You don't have to unsell the bailout to me, I was against it DAYS ago... I am for REAL solutions, and if Chap. 11 is the means to getting us to those solutions, then dammit, we were gonna hurt anyway en route, let's just make it fucking happen.

SochBAT

12-12-2008, 12:50 AM

agreed with PhlipTop.

Bailout or not, we're gonna hurt. It just depends on what their final decisions are to find out how long we hurt for.

Import Industry Buyout, match wages, start injecting the market with more appealing cars.

People want to buy the latest and greatest even to this day, albeit they are looking for a deal to show off as well. If they can bring any of their "Foreign" econo/commuter cars, they would've been fine.

Sad to see Big3 doing really shitty stateside but amazingly well in other countries.

le sigh.

innovation

12-12-2008, 10:13 AM

meh f*ck the union. They are getting payed outrages wages for doing a job other car company's pay the worker a third of. Its just stupid. They need to budge and compromise. Do you realize that every car the Big 3 sells is saddled with a $1600 legacy cost? Its mostly retiree and pension benefits. But all that adds up. Every car sold is paying money to those who dont even WORK for the company anymore. WTF? Thats why I say f the union. There is a funny question said at my work. "Do you know what the best HMO is in the country? ..... GM...."

ryguy

12-12-2008, 10:30 AM

They should just slash the amount of pension retirees get in half, or get rid of the pension altogether. After all, aren't these retirees the people who gave us the build quality of the 70s and 80s and dug GM's grave?

ronmcdon

12-12-2008, 12:05 PM

This vote was it. The issue can't be brought to a vote again until congress reconvenes in March. It's done.

Awesome. Didn't know the next session would be that late. CH.11 might be inevitable then. That, or maybe an even more expensive bailout demand if GM/Chrysler make it that far.

SochBAT

12-12-2008, 12:08 PM

Corporate buyout!

Lets do it!

If zilvia could funnel enough money, that'd be cool as hell. Yea, we'd kill each other and rip our own heads off, but still. haha.

SimpleS14

12-12-2008, 12:10 PM

This photo is caption worthy

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2008/12/84011782_opt.jpg

sub9lulu

12-12-2008, 03:28 PM

Corporate buyout!

Lets do it!

If zilvia could funnel enough money, that'd be cool as hell. Yea, we'd kill each other and rip our own heads off, but still. haha.

if there are any buy out china is gonna buy it
they have more money than 10 of the most popular fourms in the US combined

oh and .... not funnny :squint:

40daws

12-12-2008, 07:21 PM

I agree with no bail out,because we are already suffering. So far in my area 1 Mazda, 1 Chevrolet, 1 Ford and 1 Dodge&Nissan, 1 Lincoln dealers have shut down. That's possibly 5-1000 people that the area cannot absorb. Even the independent shops are having trouble and also not hiring.

S14DB

12-12-2008, 09:39 PM

Ugh, I was in a store today and some retiree was going on how great his UAW benefits were to his friend. How cutting them back would encroach on his posh lifestyle. Have to cut back on his vacations.

Who goes on vacation from retirement? Listening to some of the shit he gets are better than most people get while they are working. Disgusting...

SexPanda

12-12-2008, 09:46 PM

i say "OHV WITH THEYAH EADS!"

but seriously though... Like stated above, it doesnt take an economist to realize GM and Chrysler's plans were fucked from the get go.

Phlip

12-17-2008, 08:34 AM

Chew on this for a minute:
Auto dealers face days of reckoning - The Driver's Seat- msnbc.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28142528)

S14DB

12-17-2008, 08:58 AM

I have never had a good car deal at a "new" car dealership. It's always them cursing at me how their kids won't eat this week. But, they still sell us the car and are still open the next week. They can DIATF.

Back to the big 3. I love how they act that the assembly line worker is the one that is going to loose all the jobs. Those people are employed as long as they need to make cars. Supply/Demand. As long as people buy cars they will still be employed. A bail out won't help them. Unless they pay them to sit on the line and not build cars.

The people that are getting bailed out is the Management in their big towers in Detroit. You aren't going to fire the people building the things that make you money under a Bankruptcy Restructuring. You are going to trim the fat. All the people sitting at desks doing Legacy jobs. These are the same people asking for the money.

The Line workers are just pawns in the game. The huge management at these company's are the parasite that is bleeding them dry.

Phlip

12-17-2008, 09:18 AM

I agree, let the salespeople go sell fucking refrigerators, or maybe even USED cars at carmax.
Keep the dealers' SERVICE network open for parts and warranty service, and PERHAPS for delivery of the cars that buyers order online. Sure, you'll need to employ a couple of sales-type to complete the deal, but you won't have to pay them a commission.

ronmcdon

12-17-2008, 02:20 PM

Chew on this for a minute:
Auto dealers face days of reckoning - The Driver's Seat- msnbc.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28142528)

For sure that seems like cost they could reduce, at least to the consumer. wondering if there are any loopholes they could get away with that. I know BMW has a 'performance center' delivery program or something like that. If every manufacturer had something like that, but along the lines of every major city and town across the US, that might work as a loophole.

But even if manufacturers did own dealers outright, they still some additional financial obligations, such as payrol (even they might have to hire sales-men and support staff), having to hold inventory in their lot, purchase/rent of maintenance, etc. It's not like we are at the stage in society where we feel comfy Fedex'ing brand new cars. Those obligations aren't going to come free to the manufacturer, if not also the consumer. At a time, when the Big 3 are striving to cut costs, it might not be the best move for now at least.

Probably best to let the dealers take the hit or the time bieng. also if it is the immediate intention of manufacturers to reduce their dealer base, it seems that at least that's was also being accomplished at an alarming rate even before the current financial mess we're in.

Antihero983

12-17-2008, 06:44 PM

did you know, there are people at ford, Chry, and GM dedicated to designing JUST the gauge needles?

interesting isnt it? they have people for every piece of the interior, which could be done by fewer people thus saving money!

40daws

12-17-2008, 06:45 PM

Most new car sales people would be better off on salary at stores like Saturn and Car Max.
I mean with a family of 4,who wants to work with someone for 3-4 hours and turns out they can not buy a car,due to the HUGE credit requirements now. And If you do sell the average new, its a spine tingling $100 . At least on salary you can waste all the time you want with someone. Now working in service, I see more new car owners that have not been shown a DAMN thing about how features work in their cars. Now, granted if they opened that fucking paper weight in the glove box ,called a OWNERS MANUAL, they are told step by step. Like most lemmings most of these people don't have time to break away from the herd.

SochBAT

12-17-2008, 11:37 PM

To cope...

Chrysler closing all 30 plants for a month - Chicago Breaking News (http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2008/12/chrysler-closing-all-30-plants-for-a-month.html)

Chrysler is closing 30 plants for an exact month. Instead of, again, trimming the big wigs, they opt for the folks that really keep the business going.

Die in a fucking fire already.

ryguy

12-17-2008, 11:53 PM

Back to the big 3. I love how they act that the assembly line worker is the one that is going to loose all the jobs. Those people are employed as long as they need to make cars. Supply/Demand. As long as people buy cars they will still be employed. A bail out won't help them. Unless they pay them to sit on the line and not build cars.

I'm going to have to disagree with you. Chew on this for a second. It's sales numbers for November 2008.

General Motors Corp. 152,552
Toyota Motor Sales USA Inc. 130,307
Ford Motor Company 118,319
Chrysler LLC 85,260
American Honda Motor Co Inc. 76,233

So, the assembly line guys must be doing something. The economy still sucks, these numbers are way down from last year, but any way you toss it, GM is still the highest volume sales automaker in the United States, and even Chrysler sells more vehicles than Honda. If GM goes under, then those people who manufactured those 152,552 vehicles, and who are still manufacturing vehicles, will be out of a job.

Not only that, but Chevrolet Malibu sales are up a whopping 51.8% from this time last year, the biggest sales increase of any model from any automaker. The Ford Focus is in second in that category, up 15.7% from this time last year. The Malibu is made in Fairfax, Kansas, and Orion, Detroit. Don't tell me these people arent building cars.

93nissan

12-18-2008, 12:23 AM

What it comes down to is jobs. The US needs the jobs. We all know the cars suck. Europe and Australia get all the good fords :)

Phlip

12-18-2008, 06:40 AM

I'm going to have to disagree with you. Chew on this for a second. It's sales numbers for November 2008.

General Motors Corp. 152,552
Toyota Motor Sales USA Inc. 130,307
Ford Motor Company 118,319
Chrysler LLC 85,260
American Honda Motor Co Inc. 76,233

So, the assembly line guys must be doing something. The economy still sucks, these numbers are way down from last year, but any way you toss it, GM is still the highest volume sales automaker in the United States, and even Chrysler sells more vehicles than Honda. If GM goes under, then those people who manufactured those 152,552 vehicles, and who are still manufacturing vehicles, will be out of a job.

Not only that, but Chevrolet Malibu sales are up a whopping 51.8% from this time last year, the biggest sales increase of any model from any automaker. The Ford Focus is in second in that category, up 15.7% from this time last year. The Malibu is made in Fairfax, Kansas, and Orion, Detroit. Don't tell me these people arent building cars.

No, he was saying that the assembly line people's jobs are safer, as they are NEEDED if the companies need to go Chap. 11 and restructure. The fact that they would NEED to be able to continue to make cars, sparing them to an extent. On the other hand, you have the execs begging for money trying to save their OWN jobs, and the redundant desk jobs spoonfed to their nephews and such.
It is still greasy as fuck, I was once under the impression that a bailout made sense, but the more and more I read, the more I lean toward Chap. 11 being the way out of it, in that it will force them to trim the fat. If, through this, they intend to stay in business, they will need to streamline the dealer network and work on closing the loopholes that keeps shitty dealerships open. Also, if they do intend to stay in business, then naturally they will continue to make cars, so the assembly line workers will keep their jobs, albeit at a lower and more fair rate of pay, but that is better than no job at all.

S14DB

12-19-2008, 07:17 AM

Looks like Bush decided to grab them by the balls and tell them how it is.

Bush to Provide Emergency Loans to Big 3 - washingtonpost.com (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/19/AR2008121900893.html?hpid=topnews)

SimpleS14

12-19-2008, 08:03 AM

Dang....

Well I hope these automakers go through some drastic changes through the course of these following months.

If they remain unchanged and ask for more, I will not feel sorry for them at all.

Phlip

12-19-2008, 08:11 AM

Like feeding a stray puppy.
They're GOING to find a way to fuck it off, and will come back for more when they do. I want to be proven wrong, but I have VERY little faith in them.

S14DB

12-19-2008, 08:16 AM

Dang....

Well I hope these automakers go through some drastic changes through the course of these following months.

If they remain unchanged and ask for more, I will not feel sorry for them at all.
That's the great thing. Bush basically said if they fuck up with this loan in the next 3 months they have to pay it back in March. So, they have to make a sink or swim determination in the next 3 months. Fix the problems or go into bankruptcy with the government trying to collect on the loan.

SimpleS14

03-05-2009, 07:16 PM

I had to bump this thread after reading this article: GM says there is 'substantial doubt' about its viability - Mar. 5, 2009 (http://money.cnn.com/2009/03/05/news/companies/GM_10K/index.htm)

and ESPECIALLY this part...

"The failure to obtain sufficient funding from the U.S. government or governments outside the United States may require us to shrink or terminate operations or seek reorganization for certain subsidiaries outside the United States," the filing said.

"If we fail to obtain sufficient funding for any reason, we would not be able to continue as a going concern and could potentially be forced to seek relief under the U.S. Bankruptcy Code," GM added.

They should just get it over with and stop burning through cash with no end or result in sight.

ronmcdon

03-05-2009, 07:29 PM

I'm sure gm is going to get the additional 23 bill they're requesting.
I doubt there will be liable to further accountability too.
seriously, at this point I think even nationalization will be a better alternative to their current inept management.
wonder just how much 'restructuring' they've done in the past 5 yrs or so.

HalveBlue

03-05-2009, 10:07 PM

98s14inaz

03-05-2009, 10:52 PM

This is ridiculous.

The government is spending money like it's growing on trees.

I don't think I've gone a single day within in the last three months without hearing about some multi-Billion government program or initiative.

I wish somebody would give me a bailout.

Remember when words like "billion" and "trillion" seemed like big numbers?

SochBAT

03-05-2009, 11:25 PM

billions and trillions are nothing.

Soon, we'll being in a hundred brazilian dollar debt.

FML..

enkei2k

03-06-2009, 10:31 AM

seriously...billions/trillions is the new million...they should just let all companies that are losing money lose money and die.

survival of the fittest. end of story.

stiizy

03-06-2009, 11:08 AM

they need to start selling Vettes and Escalades for like 20 bucks i'll take a few lol..

seriously though GM is fucked!!

imotion s14

03-06-2009, 08:31 PM

This is ridiculous.

The government is spending money like it's growing on trees.

I don't think I've gone a single day within in the last three months without hearing about some multi-Billion government program or initiative.

I wish somebody would give me a bailout.

Because it is, you've seen the monetary base? Ultimately when that catches up to us there is going to be massive inflation.

Phlip

03-30-2009, 06:55 AM

exitspeed

03-30-2009, 07:28 AM

Looks like they fucked this one up, folks:

Obama denies bailout funds for automakers - Autos- msnbc.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29944834)

Now if someone would give the bankers a similar deadline to create an economy not based on a huge fucking Ponzi scheme we'd be just fine.

I'm reading conflicting reports right now. The Detroit News is reporting that "more short-term+ bailouts have been approved, $6 billion in federal aid and over the course of the 30 days, Chrysler will likely give up a 35% stake to Fiat."

No word on GM's amount.

Also, RICK WAGONER is stepping down and the current Chief Operating Officer Henderson will be taking over.

The Gov has given GM and Chrylser until Tue to figure this shit out or they are going to force them into a Chapter 11.

SimpleS14

03-30-2009, 07:44 AM

That is the first conflicting article I have read.

What I'm wondering is why didn't the gov't force these companies into "structured bankruptcy" from the start?

Either way, I'm trying to scoop up from Ford stock once it drops again and make a quick profit :keke:

exitspeed

03-30-2009, 07:45 AM

Phlip

03-30-2009, 07:55 AM

Actually, in that article I linked, is says that Chrysler has 30 days to link with Fiat sPa, for which they could get 6billion in assistance... 30 days, or they walk away from it.
GM has 60 days to restructure, and it looks like Wagoner stepped down.
No conflicting stories.

S14DB

03-30-2009, 07:57 AM

$6billion was what they(GM&Chrysler) said they needed to make it till the end of the year. I doubt they will get it.

Chrysler is getting more money if they sign with Fiat in the next 30days. If they are successful they will probably get 6 more months worth of capital to execute their plans. Hopefully some nice new cars will come from it. If not, time to cut bait.

GM is getting about 60days capital with this CEO re-organization. If that doesn't fly then they are done. Just looks like they are trading positions on the surface.

At first I thought Ford was dumb not to take any money so the family could continue collecting their dividends. But now they look to be in the best condition out of the three.
Ford execs: We want to steer clear of any aid | Freep.com | Detroit Free Press (http://www.freep.com/article/20090330/BUSINESS01/903300323)

Phlip

03-30-2009, 08:06 AM

S14DB

03-30-2009, 08:14 AM

Actually, I don't think ill of Ford for not taking any cash if they were not in dire need of it... The public's perception of and biterness toward them is likely HUGE in driving the coming failures of GM and Chrysler.

That was 3 months ago. I thought they were doing it just to money grub. But now it looks like it was a smart decision to reorganize on their terms. Not just about the money. Looks like they'll stop bastardizing Jaguar and Volvo too.

98s14inaz

03-30-2009, 08:19 AM

I'm reading conflicting reports right now. The Detroit News is reporting that "more short-term+ bailouts have been approved, $6 billion in federal aid and over the course of the 30 days, Chrysler will likely give up a 35% stake to Fiat."

No word on GM's amount.

Also, RICK WAGONER is stepping down and the current Chief Operating Officer Henderson will be taking over.

The Gov has given GM and Chrylser until Tue to figure this shit out or they are going to force them into a Chapter 11.

So let me get this straight. We are bailing out an American company so they can sell part of themselves to foreign investors? WTF?! Who are we really helping?

98s14inaz

03-30-2009, 08:23 AM

derux

03-30-2009, 10:09 AM

I have seen a lot of new fords on the road lately. They must be doing something right.

SimpleS14

03-30-2009, 11:12 AM

So the gov't is going to back warranties for GM and Chrysler. I don't know how I feel about that. :|

Phlip

03-30-2009, 11:20 AM

So the gov't is going to back warranties for GM and Chrysler. I don't know how I feel about that. :|

They'll probably make actually GETTING a warranty claim paid similar to jumping through flaming hoop while wearing a fur coat...
Nothing terribly dissimilar to sorting out their tax fuckups.

jskateborders

03-30-2009, 04:19 PM

No one else is concerned that obama just fired the head of gm?

exitspeed

03-30-2009, 04:47 PM

No one else is concerned that obama just fired the head of gm?

I think it's BS he's having Wagoner step down but didn't do shit to the CEO's at AIG or the banks that got bailouts.

As long as Lutz has made it through though I'm ok.

Automotive Press is saying that they will decide who they will sell Hummer to in the next "few weeks". The brand has been for sale since last year and they were actually hoping to have the brand sold before the end of last year, but that didn't happen. With the events that have unfolded yesterday/today I think things are going to move a lot faster now.

I assume we will hear more about the fate of SAAB, and Saturn also. I pray that they the Government is ok with them keeping Pontiac as a niche brand.

ESmorz

03-30-2009, 04:52 PM

No one else is concerned that obama just fired the head of gm?

No. GM begged for a handout, "essentially" the US Government now owns them. They knew what they were getting into when they asked for the money. If shit isn't working one would assume that the government could restructure the company as they see fit to get their money back...

jskateborders

03-30-2009, 04:52 PM

thats not the point though. He just threw capitalism out of the window, and no one is fighting it. Thats the point.Were fucked. Welcome to socialism ladies and gents

No. GM begged for a handout, "essentially" the US Government now owns them. They knew what they were getting into when they asked for the money. If shit isn't working one would assume that the government could restructure the company as they see fit to get their money back...

wrong. They have a share in the company, meaning that they have the right to bring their request to the board of directors. They didnt. They overrode the board. Thats not legal. Also the "bailout" if seen as an investment hardly gives them enough stake in the company to be worth much.
Now whats stopping obama from going to local joes hot dog stand and replacing the owner with someone he see's fit. Hundreds of years holding on to so many rights and in 90 days obamas taking them all away, and we as a people are giving them willingly. I dont care if the head of gm is a murderer, rapist ect. The government cannot fire him, he can be arrested for such things, but the government is supposed to stay out of business.

ESmorz

03-30-2009, 04:55 PM

thats not the point though. He just threw capitalism out of the window, and no one is fighting it. Thats the point.Were fucked. Welcome to socialism ladies and gents

The private sector relied on handouts from the government. Now, if GM hadn't accepted billions upon billions of dollars of relief money which came with stipulations and removed the CEO then I would say capitalism went out the window.

If you're that worried buy a horse, buy a gun, and tons of corn seed.

Matej

03-30-2009, 04:56 PM

wrong. They have a share in the company, meaning that they have the right to bring their request to the board of directors. They didnt. They overrode the board. Thats not legal. Also the "bailout" if seen as an investment hardly gives them enough stake in the company to be worth much.
Now whats stopping obama from going to local joes hot dog stand and replacing the owner with someone he see's fit. Hundreds of years holding on to so many rights and in 90 days obamas taking them all away, and we as a people are giving them willingly. I dont care if the head of gm is a murderer, rapist ect. The government cannot fire him, he can be arrested for such things, but the government is supposed to stay out of business.
If you're trying to save capitalism, you should've prevented GM from asking for and accepting the bailout.

In my opinion, if a company can accept money from the government because they are "too big to fail," then the government should also be able to keep the company in check to make sure it's performing the best job possible.

All these "too big to fail" companies are suddenly asking for handouts because they're trying to seize the opportunity. You can't just have the government throwing billions of dollars at them without having any say in it.

SimpleS14

03-30-2009, 05:58 PM

If you're trying to save capitalism, you should've prevented GM from asking for and accepting the bailout.

In my opinion, if a company can accept money from the government because they are "too big to fail," then the government should also be able to keep the company in check to make sure it's performing the best job possible.

All these "too big to fail" companies are suddenly asking for handouts because they're trying to seize the opportunity. You can't just have the government throwing billions of dollars at them without having any say in it.

QFT

If you guys ponied up that kind of cash, I'm pretty sure you would have done something similar.

jskateborders

03-30-2009, 06:12 PM

I dont agree with the bailout either, so that just furthers my point, but the steps are falling into place, and people are still following obama like a savior. not cool.

drftwerks

03-30-2009, 06:13 PM

i wish these companies would offer the same car lineup around the world.

exitspeed

03-30-2009, 06:19 PM

i wish these companies would offer the same car lineup around the world.

That's what Ford is starting to do finally and the main reason they are in as good of shape as they are right now.

ESmorz

03-30-2009, 09:12 PM

rF2tXl5-TcQ

Three alcohol-fueled fights erupted at a Michigan auto dealership last week on the day employees were told the business was closing, another sign of a community on edge as it tries to deal with the failing economy.

The first brawl took place outside Wayland Chevrolet at about 1 p.m. on Friday after several employees visited a bar. Police were alerted to the dispute, but it was broken up before they got there, Wayland Police Chief Dan Miller told FOXNews.com.

"Had they been sober, this probably wouldn’t have happened," Miller said.

Local news station WWMT-TV captured the second altercation at about 2 p.m. The video shows a scuffle, with employee Jason Stanton knocking another worker to the ground outside the dealership.

:rofl::rofl:

SimpleS14

03-31-2009, 06:55 AM

IDK if I can laugh at that =/

ronmcdon

03-31-2009, 07:36 AM

i wish these companies would offer the same car lineup around the world.

it's not all just up to the auto manufacturers either.
government emission laws (esp carb) have a lot to do with what's allowed.
both gm & ford has a lot of decent fuel efficient turbo-diesel cars for years prior.
it's good enough for europe, just not good enough for US emissions.
you also have to figure other countries have different emissions laws as well.

in some cases, I also recall some diesel models avail throughout the US but not in the state of CA.
The Volkswagen Mk5 Jetta/Golf has diesel trims that were sold in almost every other part of the US, except CA.
Thing got mpg ranges in the 40's too.
Still, not apparently acceptable according to carb.
CARB still imposes costly, questionable (if not offensive) policies on manufacturers till this day.
There was a recent thread on CARB trying to regulate the materials used for paint coatings.
They also tried to ban black paint claiming it would increase fuel consumption and other hogwash.

If the US had adopted euro emissions standards,
I'm sure it would be a lot easier for them to have one lineup for the world.
I also doubt they would be in as much trouble as they are now.

S14DB

03-31-2009, 01:13 PM

ronmcdon

03-31-2009, 02:04 PM

CA and NY found out they can't do emissions testing on diesels like that can on cars so they banned new sales. Their claim is the particulate emissions are to high. But have no way to quantify of regulate that.

no surprises there given the enviro-nazis running carb. what is shocking is how much power and lack of accountability these institutions have. imo, there should be a more lax emissions laws that are based only on measuring clean air and nothing else. bullshit theories like black cars use more energy because it needs more a/c are just out of place in a respectable government institution.

jskateborders

04-01-2009, 12:36 AM

http://photos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2692/140/58/25523191/n25523191_37065842_1834648.jpg

SimpleS14

04-01-2009, 08:03 AM

Reuters reported that a possible bankruptcy plan being discussed for General Motors Corporation includes quickly forming a new company of the Company's most profitable parts, while a group of other units would remain under bankruptcy protection for a longer period. The Company also would seek to have a new deal in place with the United Auto Workers union prior to any bankruptcy filing. Under the plans being considered, the Company would seek to quickly move its most profitable units into a new company separate from its other units in the early days of the bankruptcy filing.

General Motors Corp (GM.N) Key Developments | Stocks | Reuters.com (http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/keyDevelopments?symbol=GM.N&timestamp=20090401115500&rpc=66)

I'm guessing the new company will be a clean slate start, while the latter will be GM and die away.

I honestly don't think this is a bad idea. It's all about execute though, can they pull it off.

ronmcdon

04-01-2009, 02:50 PM

Ch.11 was what they should have done in the first place.
it was either that, or continue taking bailouts indefinitely.

I'm not sure exactly what the benefits are for starting a new company.
Ch.11 essentially entitles you get rid of existing contracts & liabilities.
This should be interesting.

I am kinda liking the way Obama is handling this.
At least he's giving GM pressure, unlike 'good-for-nothing' W.
letting GM fail entirely is prob unrealistic.
this maybe the next best thing.

jskateborders

04-01-2009, 03:30 PM

Why shouldnt gm fail? Yea its a huge company, but they failed because no one wants their shitty cars. Thats how capitalism works. Yes people will lose their jobs, but there will be another us car manufacturer to step in, and jobs to replace them. GM is shitty, thats why they are failing. Period. Thats how capitalism works.
If the government must insist on stepping in, they push to make it easier to get business loans.

And school loans for my own selfish reasons.

But GM isnt working, so giving something thats not working money is just as bad as burning it.

ronmcdon

04-01-2009, 03:54 PM

But GM isnt working, so giving something thats not working money is just as bad as burning it.

that's precisely what Bush did back in Nov or Dec.
you can thank him for that.
that 15 billion might just as well be flushed down the shitter.

this time Obama is pretty much kicking out & restructuring existing GM management.
he knows it's not working, so he's making actual changes & establishing real accountability.
60 day deadline for a working GM, or no GM at all seems reasonable to me.

ryguy

04-01-2009, 10:07 PM

that's precisely what Bush did back in Nov or Dec.
you can thank him for that.
that 15 billion might just as well be flushed down the shitter.

I dont think it will all have been for nothing. If GM had gone bankrupt last year, people would have shit their pants and never stepped foot into a GM dealership again. Now that this has been dragged out over a period of a few months, I think consumer shock will be much, much less than if GM had gone into bankruptcy all at once. I think consumers will see the bankruptcy as a good thing.

Phlip

04-23-2009, 02:35 PM

Here we go:
Report: U.S. preparing Chrysler bankruptcy - Autos- msnbc.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30366383)

SimpleS14

04-23-2009, 02:55 PM

Here we go:
Report: U.S. preparing Chrysler bankruptcy - Autos- msnbc.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30366383)

At first I thought they were going to force them in Chpt. 7.

I guess the new electric minivans for USPS changed the gov't mind. :keke:

exitspeed

04-23-2009, 03:59 PM

I'm saddened by this.

REPORT: General Motors to kill Pontiac on Monday (http://www.autoblog.com/2009/04/23/report-general-motors-to-kill-pontiac-monday/)

SimpleS14

04-23-2009, 04:29 PM

I'm saddened by this.

REPORT: General Motors to kill Pontiac on Monday (http://www.autoblog.com/2009/04/23/report-general-motors-to-kill-pontiac-monday/)

FIRE SALE ON THE G8!! :aw:

I hate to say this, but I think killing Pontiac is a good thing.

ronmcdon

04-23-2009, 08:54 PM

At first I thought they were going to force them in Chpt. 7.

I guess the new electric minivans for USPS changed the gov't mind. :keke:

Lol, i wish.
Why would Chrysler file for Ch.7 (liquidation of all assets, iirc) so soon?
They were told to work with FIAT an was offered further generous bailout funds.
Ch.11 seems to be the most logical next step considering the circumstances.

Ch.7 might eventually be inevitable, but I probably not until Chrysler runs out of $$$ again.

Phlip

06-01-2009, 08:56 AM

Developments:
Judge approves Chrysler-Fiat deal - Autos- msnbc.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31041713)

and
General Motors files for bankruptcy protection - Autos- msnbc.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31030038?GT1=43001)

S14DB

06-01-2009, 09:35 AM

So, When do I get my Fiat 500? I mean, all new Dodge Neon...

RJF

06-01-2009, 10:08 AM

Did you realize that since the taxpayers are paying for all this, we should be getting shares in the new company.

Assuming 100,000,000 people actually pay taxes in this country and with $50,000,000,000 given to GM, assuming a share price of $1.00, we each should be getting 500 shares of stock in the new company.

But who is going to get their political payback on all this, the UAW who killed both GM and Chrysler.

imotion s14

06-03-2009, 09:09 AM

Government Motors. lol.

Phlip

06-03-2009, 09:15 AM

Since they're killing off Pontiac, and the gub'mint controls 60% of GM, can I get a G8 for 60% off?

imotion s14

06-03-2009, 12:52 PM

Since they're killing off Pontiac, and the gub'mint controls 60% of GM, can I get a G8 for 60% off?

No, but you can work harder to help pay the interest for the national debt.

98s14inaz

06-03-2009, 12:58 PM

Phlip

06-03-2009, 01:40 PM

No, but you can work harder to help pay the interest for the national debt.

Well there's a fucking screwjob if I have ever seen one.

drift freaq

06-03-2009, 03:05 PM

it's not all just up to the auto manufacturers either.
government emission laws (esp carb) have a lot to do with what's allowed.
both gm & ford has a lot of decent fuel efficient turbo-diesel cars for years prior.
it's good enough for europe, just not good enough for US emissions.
you also have to figure other countries have different emissions laws as well.

in some cases, I also recall some diesel models avail throughout the US but not in the state of CA.
The Volkswagen Mk5 Jetta/Golf has diesel trims that were sold in almost every other part of the US, except CA.
Thing got mpg ranges in the 40's too.
Still, not apparently acceptable according to carb.
CARB still imposes costly, questionable (if not offensive) policies on manufacturers till this day.
There was a recent thread on CARB trying to regulate the materials used for paint coatings.
They also tried to ban black paint claiming it would increase fuel consumption and other hogwash.

If the US had adopted euro emissions standards,
I'm sure it would be a lot easier for them to have one lineup for the world.
I also doubt they would be in as much trouble as they are now.

You have a habit of late to spout an awful lot of rhetoric( you taking lessons from RJF? ) lol .
Seriously dude blaming Detroit Automakers problems on CARB and New York is pure utter right wing bullshit.

People may propose a few ludicrous ideas through CARB. They usually don't come to pass.
What has come to pass is air that is a lot cleaner in the LA basin than it ever used to be.
You are probably to young to even realize this but there was time here when they had smog days where kids were not even allowed outside. Where it hurt your lungs to breathe. Where you could not even see the Hollywood Hills going up Highland (1-1.5 distance) for days on end. The air is a hell of a lot cleaner because of CARB. They may not be perfect but they are a hell of a lot better than nothing.

Fucking Detroit is screwed because Detroit screwed themselves. I have said this before and I will say it again. My Father, along with several other important people from Silicon Valley and other places of technological advancement in this country, went to Detroit in the mid 70's and told them what they needed to do. Did they listen? No. They told them they know what the American public wants and went along their merry way.

The Management in Detroit has mis-stepped so many times its a joke. They had their chance in the 70's with the Gas crisis and getting hit by the first wave of good Japanese cars to change their ways. They did not.
The UAW shoved down the throat of Automakers, union contracts that
A: Made American autoworkers extremely well off (regardless of the job they did)
B: Health plans that extended in perpetuity.
C: inability to fire an employee if his work was not up to snuff. Fire him and the union had him back on the job the next day!
They bet the farm on SUV's because it was profitable without looking at other cars . That was their fault not CARB, not California, Not New York.

tunersedge

06-03-2009, 06:18 PM

............what?

So, you would prefer social breakdown and anarchy?

in short yes, its what this country needs, like previously stated the system in which we live in inherently corrupt. maybe social breakdown is what we need.

imotion s14

06-03-2009, 06:25 PM

Well there's a fucking screwjob if I have ever seen one.

Well you can get a government loan from GMAC to buy a GM car at below market rates.

It's like perpetual motion!

ronmcdon

06-04-2009, 06:18 PM

You have a habit of late to spout an awful lot of rhetoric( you taking lessons from RJF? ) lol .
Seriously dude blaming Detroit Automakers problems on CARB and New York is pure utter right wing bullshit.

People may propose a few ludicrous ideas through CARB. They usually don't come to pass.
What has come to pass is air that is a lot cleaner in the LA basin than it ever used to be.
You are probably to young to even realize this but there was time here when they had smog days where kids were not even allowed outside. Where it hurt your lungs to breathe. Where you could not even see the Hollywood Hills going up Highland (1-1.5 distance) for days on end. The air is a hell of a lot cleaner because of CARB. They may not be perfect but they are a hell of a lot better than nothing.

Fucking Detroit is screwed because Detroit screwed themselves. I have said this before and I will say it again. My Father, along with several other important people from Silicon Valley and other places of technological advancement in this country, went to Detroit in the mid 70's and told them what they needed to do. Did they listen? No. They told them they know what the American public wants and went along their merry way.

The Management in Detroit has mis-stepped so many times its a joke. They had their chance in the 70's with the Gas crisis and getting hit by the first wave of good Japanese cars to change their ways. They did not.
The UAW shoved down the throat of Automakers, union contracts that
A: Made American autoworkers extremely well off (regardless of the job they did)
B: Health plans that extended in perpetuity.
C: inability to fire an employee if his work was not up to snuff. Fire him and the union had him back on the job the next day!
They bet the farm on SUV's because it was profitable without looking at other cars . That was their fault not CARB, not California, Not New York.

Come on now, how can you think of me being Right Wing when I'm advocating Federal/Euro standards, and then applauding Obama for pressuring GM/Chrysler?

I'm not blaming CARB for everything.
I do have doubts as to whether CARB is any better than default Federal emissions requirements.
I'm also not saying the 'Big 3' don't have other issues.
I recall in other threads we were discussing about GM's mis-management/bureacracy & cost issues.

From a business perspective, it would have been a lot easier for at least Ford & GM to bring over their turbo-diesel compact & midsize offerings.
That would have allowed them to compete with the imports more successfully to a certain degree (and meet CAFE standards easier).
It would have allowed for them to more easily create a world car lineup.
It's not a guarantee, but allows them (and other manufacturers) to compete on a more advantageous footing.

From an environmental perspective, I agree that smog has been reduced been by quite a significant amount, even from 10-15 yrs ago.
What leads you to conclude that Federal emissions alone wouldn't have brought about the same level of change?
If turbo-diesel requirements were lower, we'd probably see more diesel cars several years earlier.
Perhaps there wouldn't ever have been the need for hybrids.
Fuel consumption & respective emissions, could have been much lower during those years.

I agree CARB is better than nothing.
I'm just not convinced yet that it's any better than the Federal or European emission regulations.

What I'm most concerned about GM, is that even their re-structuring they don't have a solid small/midsize fuel efficient car line-up or even a game plan that would allow them to sustain themselves in the long run.
As mentioned in one of the prior threads, the 36-40k Volt just isn't a realistic solution (unless gas jumps to be $20+/gallon).
If they had their fuel efficient, and (imo) better made Euro models, I'd be more optimistic.

drift freaq

06-04-2009, 07:07 PM

Come on now, how can you think of me being Right Wing when I'm advocating Federal/Euro standards, and then applauding Obama for pressuring GM/Chrysler?

I'm not blaming CARB for everything.
I do have doubts as to whether CARB is any better than default Federal emissions requirements.
I'm also not saying the 'Big 3' don't have other issues.
I recall in other threads we were discussing about GM's mis-management/bureacracy & cost issues.

From a business perspective, it would have been a lot easier for at least Ford & GM to bring over their turbo-diesel compact & midsize offerings.
That would have allowed them to compete with the imports more successfully to a certain degree (and meet CAFE standards easier).
It would have allowed for them to more easily create a world car lineup.
It's not a guarantee, but allows them (and other manufacturers) to compete on a more advantageous footing.

From an environmental perspective, I agree that smog has been reduced been by quite a significant amount, even from 10-15 yrs ago.
What leads you to conclude that Federal emissions alone wouldn't have brought about the same level of change?
If turbo-diesel requirements were lower, we'd probably see more diesel cars several years earlier.
Perhaps there wouldn't ever have been the need for hybrids.
Fuel consumption & respective emissions, could have been much lower during those years.

I agree CARB is better than nothing.
I'm just not convinced yet that it's any better than the Federal or European emission regulations.

What I'm most concerned about GM, is that even their re-structuring they don't have a solid small/midsize fuel efficient car line-up or even a game plan that would allow them to sustain themselves in the long run.
As mentioned in one of the prior threads, the 36-40k Volt just isn't a realistic solution (unless gas jumps to be $20+/gallon).
If they had their fuel efficient, and (imo) better made Euro models, I'd be more optimistic.

Hehe a good debate we have here, I question the whole diesel situation though. why? One of the largest pollution problems we are having in the Southern California region now, is from Diesel particulate emissions. From all types of Diesel vehicles.

The central valley is now as smoggy as a urban area because of lack of emission regulations ( farm lobbies are responsible for this) and a lot of that comes again from Diesel particulate emissions.
Diesel is not exactly the clean burning fuel or engines that automotive diesel manufacturers would have you believe.
I applaud CARB in sense because several times Presidents have tried to roll back EPA regs on emissions to way behind what even they consider good. In the name of business.
CARB has repeatedly prompted the EPA to take a better stance on emissions. I fear without CARB the EPA would have no checks and balances. While you feel CARB goes to far quite often the EPA does not go far enough. They actually do balance things out and because of CARB the EPA has actually made strides they probably would not have made.

I do not put much faith in Washington or Nation Government agencies. The tend to be influenced completely by special interest groups, that do not hesitate to warp a law in their favor. Even if it means destroying the environment.
In this sense though we could say CARB is influenced that way somewhat as well the level and the amount is not nearly at a point of being completely fucked up.
Now our state Government and how they spend money? Well it is completely fucked up and thats a whole other story.

None the less I still feel Ford is on the ball has the right idea and is doing the right things. While both GM and Chrysler?

Well Chrysler should just die. While always being a technological company they have always had reliability issues. To think them teaming up with Mitsushitty(another winner , eh loser in the reliability department) The blind leading the blind.

GM I agree with you that they really don't seem to have the right ideas to make a concerted and real recovery that will allow them to survive. They are not focusing enough on small fuel efficient vehicles to compete.
The whole betting the farm on the Volt was pie in the sky. It does not look good as of right now for GM.

S14DB

06-04-2009, 07:58 PM

Hehe a good debate we have here, I question the whole diesel situation though. why? One of the largest pollution problems we are having in the Southern California region now, is from Diesel particulate emissions. From all types of Diesel vehicles.

The central valley is now as smoggy as a urban area because of lack of emission regulations ( farm lobbies are responsible for this) and a lot of that comes again from Diesel particulate emissions.
Diesel is not exactly the clean burning fuel or engines that automotive diesel manufacturers would have you believe.
I applaud CARB in sense because several times Presidents have tried to roll back EPA regs on emissions to way behind what even they consider good. In the name of business.
It's the NoX from desiel engines that cause smog not DPEs.
Smog - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smog)

DPE's are a different issue.
Diesel particulate matter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_particulate_matter)

CARB Under Alan Lloyd caved more then EPA. They are completely self serving to the industry's in California. Lloyd is now in charge of the fuel cell institute. Wonder why carb is so hard up on fuel cells. To think they are some white knight is a joke.