SICK of my 240! F*kin rattle .. need help

[Powerzen2002]

Ok, this month's repairs on my '90 240 s13 have consisted of a new master cylinder, rear brake pads and one rear caliper!

Honestly, I have had it.

After changing my spark plugs, and wires, I started my car up,
and guess what I heard!!! That lovely rattle from the
timing chain area! I just had the f*kin chain, tensionr(s) and right timing chain guide fixed not even 6 months ago!

HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE for the damn thing to start rattling
again!

I mean, honestly. I am done with 240's! Is it possible
the chain guide broke again in under 10K miles? Could
the left chain giude have gone bad now? Does it matter if
it falls into the pan?

Anyway, like I said, the right chain guide, tensionor and chain all replaced!

Thanks, all ideas appreciated!

P.S. What type of warranty should a shop offer on this? I should be still covered to bring it back and have the job redone if IT IS THE chain or right guide again.. right?

[mrmephistopheles]

I'll buy it from you. :D

[Dousan_PG]

you didnt REPLACE the chain guides did you?
because nissan doesnt even make the guides anymore..for a reason, they fail.

[Kreator]

Hmmm shouldnt've broken that fast... just an idea: check oil. Might be that your oil is low so there is not enough pressure on the tensioner.

[uiuc240]

Originally posted by dousan36
you didnt REPLACE the chain guides did you?
because nissan doesnt even make the guides anymore..for a reason, they fail.

Sure they do. I put a new set in my SOHC KA about a year before I pitched that beast of a motor. I gave up with all the EGR faults (I think the ECU was fubar) and other random crap and got an SR. I vote Powerzen should do the same :)

But seriously, it could be the guide. They might have put in a guide that was *not* one of the redesigned ones. Or maybe the guide on the other side failed. In any case, the design was still crappy. I had the timing chain rattle about a year after I changed my guides too. Say it with me: "Phuck it." The engine will keep going. Just drive it till it does something bad, then drop a KA or SR in.

Eric

[AKADriver]

I think dousan might be thinking of the upper guide on the KA24DE which IIRC is no longer made because it fails and doesn't really do anything anyway. The other guides, including the guides for the KA24E should all still be available.

VW VR6 engines do the same thing, if it's any consolation... my VR6's chain rattles on cold mornings and it was replaced along with the guides and tensioner about 12,000 miles ago.

I'd like to second the "Phuck It." motion.

[Powerzen2002]

I'd like to second the "Phuck It." motion. [/B]

I will third the motion on that "Phuck It." but, I have to drive it,
I need this car. I have wasted to much money on cars, and now
cant afford a new one.

Let me throw the figures for everyone as to why I bother:

$370 a month for basic liability in New York State for my 240
1.87 a Gallon for gas
I goto school full time
I got a full time job that pays CRAP!
..... and I wasted my few thou. I had left to spend on a new car,
repairing this one!

SO! I depend on this car 100% for travel and what not.
Without it I can not afford a New one! SO, I cant just drive it and wait for it to break (this is the engine were talkin about here! :) )

ANYWAY! I dont know what to do. THEY DO make the guides for the KA24E ... THEY HAVE to considering without them, there is nothing to guide the chain, give a little tension to hold it in place. Not to mention are called "GUIDES" for a reason .. :D

I know they used a replacement kit to do the chain job on it.

I was also thinkin its something with the oil, but I checked my oil at least once every other day, and its fine! Why all of a sudden would the tensionors need time to build pressure?

Here is some useless information that may help:

I use 10w-40 oil, It is 10-20 degrees currently in NY.

[240sxspeedracer1]

[i]

Here is some useless information that may help:

I use 10w-40 oil, It is 10-20 degrees currently in NY. [/B]


hey, no it's not, its almost 50 degrees for the last 3 days!
What mande you change the timing chain? How many miles did you have when you did it? Reason Im asking is cause I'm having the same rattle when I start it up and wondering when I should have the job done. I got 75xxx miles, rattle started at about 73xxx I believe

[Powerzen2002]

Yea, its been pretty cold! We had a few days of 30-40 degree weather ... its going back down to 20 this week.

BUT anyway, its still cold enough where as the car oil
would make a difference in oil pressure and build up for the chain tensionors to make a noise. I mean, if someone can back me up on this, i would appreciate it .. maybe its not the chain going bad, only tensionors .. who knows!

YOUR SUPPOSED to change it every 60K According to nissan.
Personally, change it when it rattles. I had it rattle at 55K, and changed it at 63K. No biggie, once the rattle continues at idle, and no longer dissapears after warm up your gonna need to get the bad guide or chain out of there or risk a valve train collapse! :D

Does anyone know there is a way to tell if its just the tensionors building up? or am i gonna need to speak to the mechanic about his Phuck UP job he did in the first place!

Thanks

[96SEChick]

I would take it back to the shop and have them look at it & listen to it. My car still has an occasional tapping upon startup and I have also had the entire timing chain job done--12k miles ago. My tech wants me to bring it in and have him adjust the timing--he said he set it ahead a bit because I had previous idle problems before the job. So, it may be something as simple as that. But, definitely have them look at it, since they were the last ones to touch it, and it was somewhat recent--and should be under warranty.

Good luck! And don't give up on your car yet. Just think about how much more reliable she will be after all this work you've done to her. I have put over $3000 in repairs in my car in almost 2 years. I was about to give up until I realized how much less I'm going to have to spend on maintenance in the future.

[dball33]

Sorry for this stupid question but how would the rattle of the chain and tensionors sound like? Is it somewhat of a hollow popping type of sound?

[Powerzen2002]

No popping, just a low rattle noise from the timing chain area. I dunno what else it could be ....

it rattles for less than a minute.

Any other suggestions.

[TegGSR96]

Originally posted by Powerzen2002
Yea, its been pretty cold! We had a few days of 30-40 degree weather ... its going back down to 20 this week.

you think THAT is cold?? it was -34 Celsius for about 2 weeks here... thats about -25 F .. now THATS cold..
Alex

[Powerzen2002]

No, thats not cold... thats INSANE! haha, damn. Your car must feel nice 'n torque'ie with the colder air :)

.....

Anyway, Anybody know much about the tensionors for the
timing chain? Shoould it take time for the pressure to build,
so I should here a few seconds of rattle if I actually put the
hood up before starting? Just trying to see if I should worry
about this or not.

I know people say yea, but .. just taking more opinoins
on this! The guy who did my chain job is VERY busy, so before
I go bust'in his ballz about this ... i wanna be right.

Thanks.

[TegGSR96]

ive heard from quite a few people that it may rattle at start up but should go away once you drive away/it warms up slightly.. how come you didnt just remove the guide instead of replacing it? just remove the problem entirely..

and yes it has been insanely cold..and i played outdoor hockey a few times without a coat in that weather just cause it got in the way heh.. and my upper body wasnt cold, just my hands, feet, any extremity.. when you play hard your upper body doesnt freeze.. and no my car doesnt feel very torquey since i wrote it off about 2 months ago (hit black ice going the limit... lost the battle with a pole and hydrant), so now im driving my parents cars which are auto and suck lol.. i miss my 5spd...
Alex

[Powerzen2002]

Well, I replaced it cuz I believe you have to on the KA24E ...
Otherwise the chain could possibly hop a few teeth and
destroy my drive train ....

tegGSR ... Yea ... sorry to hear bout da car.

I may be selling out ! Gettin a 2000 Honda Accord, my
neighbor is selling his for 10,000 ... V6 VTEC, fullly loaded.
I know .. i know .. fukin honda! But, its got 2 times the
power of my s13!

[JNM240]

If you just replace the timing chain 6 months ago, then i doubt it would be the guide. Nissan did a parts recall on the guide in 1994 (?) so that all replacement parts (wether you get it from Nissan or Pep Boys or whoever) timing chain kits will come with an updated chain guide that is steel reinforced. Grab a small flashlight and pull your valve pan cover off and try and look at it. As you look down the timing chain, the tensioner is on the left and the guide is on the right. Like i said, any new timing chain kits come with the updated guide that is reinforced, so there is no way you got the original plastic guide, and even that shouldnt deteriorate in 6 months. Hopefully this helps a little.

[Powerzen2002]

Thanks JNM240!

I will take the valve cover off tomorrow and take a look. Its
snowing now so I cant do that. I wonder if the guy who
did the fix on my timing chain / guides, if he botched the job
up by not properly tightening the guide. There is a left guide
to right? Is it necessary to have both guides? If the other
side is now going, is it safe to let it be? Also, do you know if
it couyld possibly be just the cold weather? Maybe it is
just the tensionors pressuring up? It is been pretty cold!

Is there any way of telling? If i switch to a heavier oil?

Thanks again.

[240sxspeedracer1]

hey powerzen, where did you get the timing chain job at?
Also, how much did it cost to get the job done, just in case one day I wanna do it.

[JNM240]

Powerzen2002, hopefully whoever did your timing chain job the first time got the whole kit, which would include the chain, tensioner, updated guide, tension side guide, cam sprocket and crank sprocket. I got this kit from Autozone for $89 and used all of it except the cam sprocket (i have a Nismo adjustable one). Therefore, i doubt one side was replaced and the other is now going out, they should both be brand new. If you like i can send u a scan of the procedure from the '90 FSM so you will have an idea of what to look for. I would post it here but i dont know how to post pics.

The cold might have something to do with it, as might your type of oil. The tensioner is spring loaded to push on the left guide, so it doesnt need to be warmed up. Your oil, however, may need to be, depending on how cold it is. As for not tightening bolts, the tensioner itself is held on by 2 bolts but they dont require a certain torque (like head bolts or connecting rods bolts) in order for it to work. Then the tensioner guide is held on by 1 bolt that, even when tight, allows the tension guide to pivot so tension can be put on the chain. Then the guide rail has 2 bolts on it, and again, as long as they are tight, should be fine. The critical two bolts to worry about are the camshaft sprocket bolt and the crankshaft sprocket bolt. But you would have much more serious problems if either of those came off. But you can always check. The camshaft sprocket is i believe an 11/16" bolt and can be reached with the valve pan cover off. The crankshaft sprocket is, if i remember correctly, 1 1/16" (or 1 3/16"..? i cant remember exactly) and you can easily get to it at your crank pulley.

Another idea is, because it is so cold, your oil pressure needs to build up a little to get oil to your rocker arms. Rocker arm tapping sounds a lot like chain rattling to me. Your rocker arms are hydraulic so they require oil and oil pressure to work. But during the first few minutes of start up, esp in sub freezing weather, the oil pressure needs to build up. These few minutes of tapping are not going to harm your motor at all.

I am one of those strange few that love the SOHC. Its easy to work on, and with some modifications and work, you can extract a tasteful ammount of power from them and keep their bulletproof reliability. Hope some of this helps you!