SR vs KAT. NO! Not your normal debate.

[thx247]

What I want to know are the price points for an SR vs a KAT.

Background:
Frankly I don't care what engine I use, just so long as that engine can do what I ask of it.

I ask my engine to give me 350rwhp, with low enough lag (and boost threshold) that I can drive it in really twisty roads.

Question:
An SR engine set is like 1800 bucks right now give or take. Building up a KAT to make 350hp in a reliable fashion is also pretty expensive. What I'm wondering is, how much cheaper would an SR be to make 350, compared to how much a KAT would be to get to 350.

From what I can see, I would have to give the KA some new rods and pistons, and maybe alittle PnP to clean it up. Headgaskets for both cars can remain stock, things like fuel injectors, pumps and turbos...all that external trash I don't care about. Both engines will need extra parts to make 350hp. I want to know if the extra price on the SR makes up for the internals it has.

In the land of performance cars, there are three factors. Performance, reliability, and cost. You can never have all 3, but you can have two. I'm willing to give up cost in search of performance and reliability.

What I'm asking may not be possible on a 350hp car, but if thats the case I guess I'll live with whatever I can get. (Still will make 350 but maybe will not get the response I want. oh well)

[240racer]

Most people have said that to get to that level the price is about the same. It would depend on a couple things. Do you need new pistons on the SR? Can you do your own turbo kit on the KA, that changes the price about $2000 If you can do your own basic turbo kit for $1800, then it's pretty even.
Both engines need alot of the same stuff, fuel support, larger turbo (which you can get right away with the KA), FMIC, upgraded internals.

[thx247]

I would build my own setup for the KA. I don't think there are many kits out there that would give me exactly what I'm looking for anyway.

For the SR afaik you do not need to change ANY internals to make 350 reliably. But I'm looking for confirmation on this right now. Anyone know of anyone running 350 on stock internals?

[240racer]

well you can definatly run 350rwhp on stock internals in the SR, but it's a question of how long it will last. It may work pretty well I don't know. I think you can make 350rwhp on the stock internals on the KA, but you have to be lucky and never detonate.

[SRKperformance]

you can make up to 400 whp on stock internals with the proper tuning. Tuning is everything. A ka24de i would expect the maximum to be around the 320 whp mark. ALl you need to do to an sr20det is fuel injectors, t3/t4 turbo, adapter flange for stock manifold, s-afc, or retuned ecu. and z32 mafs. Heavy throttle sells the z32 mafs with injectors and ecu upgrade kit for sr for 575. Plus a turbo, like 650, flange 10 bucks, hone the intake manifold and smooth out the irreqularities where it meets the flange , like 20 bucks at a machine shop. so like 1800 + 1225 = 350 whp with the proprer tuning.

A ka would need heat treated rods, plus pistons for a total of 600 + what i above mentioned for the sr, for around 600 + the turbo and manifold around 800, hopefully youll be doing the labor yourself, also cams. Youll also need a metal headgasket. As long as the sr is tuned properly you dont even need to swap the head gasket, just run better fuel at high boost. so for about 2400 you can have a similar set up making about 350 whp, but you need to remeber all the labor of acutally building the motor properly unless your going to do it yourself and god help you if you are an amatuer. so you could theoretically do it for cheaper if you did all the labor yourslef for the internals, otherwise the ka24det will end up more expensive, the sr20det modifications are all external, basically just bolting stuff on and tuning the fuel map.

[d240t2]

Ahem...300+rwhp has proven reliable on stock bottom end KA+Ts. I have been running around on 350rwhp on a stock bottom end KA+T since April or so.

Dennis

[JasonNagra]

Originally posted by SRKperformance
you can make up to 400 whp on stock internals with the proper tuning. Tuning is everything. A ka24de i would expect the maximum to be around the 320 whp mark. ALl you need to do to an sr20det is fuel injectors, t3/t4 turbo, adapter flange for stock manifold, s-afc, or retuned ecu. and z32 mafs. Heavy throttle sells the z32 mafs with injectors and ecu upgrade kit for sr for 575. Plus a turbo, like 650, flange 10 bucks, hone the intake manifold and smooth out the irreqularities where it meets the flange , like 20 bucks at a machine shop. so like 1800 + 1225 = 350 whp with the proprer tuning.

A ka would need heat treated rods, plus pistons for a total of 600 + what i above mentioned for the sr, for around 600 + the turbo and manifold around 800, hopefully youll be doing the labor yourself, also cams. Youll also need a metal headgasket. As long as the sr is tuned properly you dont even need to swap the head gasket, just run better fuel at high boost. so for about 2400 you can have a similar set up making about 350 whp, but you need to remeber all the labor of acutally building the motor properly unless your going to do it yourself and god help you if you are an amatuer. so you could theoretically do it for cheaper if you did all the labor yourslef for the internals, otherwise the ka24det will end up more expensive, the sr20det modifications are all external, basically just bolting stuff on and tuning the fuel map.

Don't listen to SRK.

There are PLENTY of people that have well over 350RWHP on stock KA internals. There are people on fresh alloy, and a few guys on here. SRK is simply talking out of his ass. Don't start a debate SRK, you're just wrong.

[SRKperformance]

once again if you are the infinte person of knowledge please tell me how incredibly reliable those ka-ts are. And jason you still havent answered my question what is the difference between high and low impedence and high and low resistance in relation to fuel injectors? I have worked on several and seen them explode, now with enough money and experience and tuning you can make a ka-t that is relativly relable but the piston design of the ka24 and the stock compression ration is not turbo friendly unless you run low boost. You cannot run 91 octane on a kat the makes 350 whp and drive it around daily. There are many stock bottom end sr20dets in japan and the united states runing on 91 or 93 octane making 400 whp, daily driven at that level. For example epik on fresalloy, used nissadata to tune his car to make over 409 whp on 93 octane and he drove it that way for 6 months with no problem. Im not saying its not possible im just saying a sr20det set up will be more relable and happy on stock internals. Thats my opinion, now if you dont agree thats fine with me. And jason you dont need to be a little bitch , why dont you come over and check out the motorswap im doing? huh? Have you ever even built an engine before, Built a bottom end, flow benched a head? Done anything other than tint your windows and change a tire? no...so have a little fucin respect man..

[SRKperformance]

and dont worry i have no problem with the ka, my next project is building a ka turbo with stock internals. (aside from mr. sr20det race motor)

[240 2NR]

Originally posted by JasonNagra
Don't listen to SRK.

There are PLENTY of people that have well over 350RWHP on stock KA internals. There are people on fresh alloy, and a few guys on here. SRK is simply talking out of his ass. Don't start a debate SRK, you're just wrong.

I'm not picking sides on this arguement, however, if reliablity was a high priority as stated in the original post, then I'd say on stock internals the SR would be the way to go at 350hp. If I had a KA at that level daily driven I'd consider new rods, pistons, and bearings. Personally, it's not worth the risk at that point. You have to pay to play. You can pay now, or you can pay more later.

However if you're not set on running stock internals either way, then the cost is the same. At 350hp though, I'd say to run *reliably* you're looking at internal work, which starts to tip the scales to a stock internal SR. Up to 300hp I think it's safe to run stock internals either way.

[thx247]

Originally posted by SRKperformance
god help you if you are an amatuer.

I'm about as new as you can get to this.

Hence the questions.


From what I've read on FA there are plenty of people making way over 350 in KAT's. Stock and not. Like what I said before, I'm going to sacrifice cost for reliability and performance. I don't mind having to do internals on either engine, but since my goal is only up to 350hp. I want to make a very driveable, reliable 350hp. and call it a day. Its sounding like 350 for either engine is asking too much for stock internals. The point about the KA's compression is particularly important. The tensile load might just be to high for the KA at stock 9.0 compression or whatever it is.

[Jeff240sx]

SKR doesn't seem to have the prices correct.
The way I see it, for a KA, for $3600 you can have a complete t3/4 turbo kit, minus fuel. Then for another $1000, you can have a fuel system to support 350rwhp (50# injectors, pump, rail, ECU, MAF). That's $4600. Add another $600 or so for a complete dyno tune and piggyback fuel controller. Then an exhaust and clutch for $800, and that's a grand total of $6000 for 350hp, and if tuned correctly, will hold fine.
If you are so inclined to get pistons (cuz they are the weak point), you can use stock rods, and pistons will be about $600 for absolutly certain 350hp driver. Final Price: $6600
The SR motor is about $5003 (based on SRSwap.com FAQ, using mid-point prices.) That is everything as above, without paying for the install. Engine, gauges, exhaust, turbo timer, gauges, shipping, clutch, IC and piping, fuel pump, BOV, air filter, manual boost controller, and wires/plugs/other crap. I don't know exactly how much power that will give you. But to make 350rwhp, you'll need injectors, possibly a rail, ecu retune and MAF (another $800). Then you will need an upgraded turbo because the t25 can't make 350rwhp, so that's another $500. This will total up to $6300-ish. Then to make things fair for comparison's sake, you'll need a piggyback fuel controller and dyno tuning, at the cost of $600, and you're at $6900.
There isn't really a difference in price that much. It's all in your prefrence of torque vs. revs, like I always say.
These prices are what I paid for my KA-T, and for what SRSwap.com says needs to be done for the sr swap. Real numbers here.
-Jeff

[DuffMan]

Well here's a breakdown for 350rwhp on a SR:

full install 2000
fmic 800
upgraded turbo 900

both are going to need fuel/tuning upgrades so let's assume those cancel each other out. Same with exhaust.

That gives you $3700 to build the KA. Definitely doable if you have the skill or the time. Some If you don't then the kit alone is going to cost about that much.

If you are a mechanical wiz, you could probably build your own kit, and replace the stock pistons, rod bearings on a KA and make it bulletproof.

Example:
Manifold: 400
Turbo: 400
FMIC 600 if you do your own welding
Downpipe 100
oil lines and misc stuff: 200
Forged pistons: 700

This gets you there for a mere $2400 but is very labor and skill intensive.

Add 1000 for the labor involved in rebuilding the engine, and 300 for welding, and it can be done for $3700 and require less skills. So this matches nicely with the SR build up.

Personally I don't want a whole lot of down time for my car, and my KA is too old to slap a kit on it and hope for good things to happen so I am going the SR route. But I can see appealing factors for both motors. It depends on personal preference.

[Jeff240sx]

I see what you're saying duffman, but the prices aren't that bad.
Turbo and manifold are about $1200
IC is only like $350, and piping for everything is $70 if you can weld. That includes the downpipe.
The oil line was $30 for me from NAPA, and pistons and bearings will be $500 for forged pistons and stock bearings (which are great!).
But you're forgetting the wastegate you'll need, and BOV.
That's $2600 for all that stuff.
And $1000 for labor is nuts. A rebuild shouldn't take a shop more than 5 hours to slap some pistons and bearings in ($250). If you can modify everything to install the SR, you sure as hell can dissassemble the engine for the shop, have them hone and swap pistons, add bearings, and then you re-assemble it yourself.
-Jeff

[240racer]

IMO, if you want a reliable engine the the factory built one is the best way to go as long as it's durable enough, which the KA really isn't, but the SR probably is. In this case, I think I'm going to have to recommend the SR. Because I think that the person asking does not have the experience and ability to keep the KAT project under the cost of doing the SR. Also, since he is in CA, that makes the cost of the SR's go down quite a bit (I think, I'm not there so I don't know for sure)

If you are going to go with the KA, get pistons and bearings and have a good shop do it.

Everything else is pretty simple. We even have the 550/cobra maf situation figured out for you.

The other problem that you may of course run into is how good the condition of the SR is. All these places say their engines are good, but IMO, they were driven around by kids that buy Silvia GT-s or whatever and they are 10 years old. If you think the SR may need a rebuild, then the KA is going to be cheaper, since you already own it.

[Muzzy]

wut about turbo cams.....no need for a special cam when u make a KA+T??

[nrcooled]

Originally posted by thx247
I'm about as new as you can get to this.

Hence the questions.


From what I've read on FA there are plenty of people making way over 350 in KAT's. Stock and not. Like what I said before, I'm going to sacrifice cost for reliability and performance. I don't mind having to do internals on either engine, but since my goal is only up to 350hp. I want to make a very driveable, reliable 350hp. and call it a day. Its sounding like 350 for either engine is asking too much for stock internals. The point about the KA's compression is particularly important. The tensile load might just be to high for the KA at stock 9.0 compression or whatever it is.

I think the real question is, if you are "new to this", is how do you know that you want the magical 350hp number. A lot of newbies think that they have some mystical level of hp achievement that will make them happy. If you are looking for reliability get a SR bolt on the simple $h1t and turn up the boost to 10-14psi and I promise you a smile.

That is exactly what I have and I want no more. If you want to be a drag racer then I say "more hp the better" but if your plans are exactly what you stated then you don't need 350 hp.

Let me brake it down to you anyway you go you will need to do work on the car. There is no such thing as a start and drive 350hp machine (that didn't come stock)

[Fresh 240SX]

Well.....like you said your willing to give up cost for reliability and performance then either motor can Yeild you 350rwhp... its just a different path with the KA & SR.

SR is like 205hp already boosted.... lots of kick ass parts to bump the power and its all the rage now adays...

KA is a great motor.... Iron block... 2400cc's lots of potential....

in the short run it would be easier to say yes pop in a SR and start to mod it.... but im partial to the KA motor. Its all good... its all Nissan.
Just get your check book out and ready for your goals.
:)

[thx247]

Its more about a challenge and that I can afford to do it that way. I'm still trying to decide on SR or KA at this point in time, but as I ask more questions I'm finding more questions. Like it may not be possible to get the engine response I want from a 350hp car.

Why 350? Because financially its what I can afford, its faster that 90% of the things out there, and the rest of the car will be setup to handle the power, so why not.

When you say there is no startup and drive 350hp car what do you mean exactly? That you cannot have daily driver reliability? or that you cannot have daily driver convience from a 350hp car?

[Jeff240sx]

I had 515hp daily driving power from a Corvette. It broke pretty often, and caught on fire in about 14 months.
See.. some people have set ammounts of power for daily driving, but I think 600+hp is fine for grocery getting, if you can afford it.
-Jeff

[Muzzy]

wut about turbo cams.....no need for a special cam when u make a KA+T?? (again!!)

[d240t2]

No. You don't need aftermarket cams.

[Muzzy]

oh...

[nrcooled]

When you say there is no startup and drive 350hp car what do you mean exactly? That you cannot have daily driver reliability? or that you cannot have daily driver convience from a 350hp car?


It broke pretty often, and caught on fire in about 14 months.

That is what a heavily modded car can give you. Basically, look at it like this you get 4-5hrs of fun for a weekend of work.
Then break or wear something else out and have to replace it. It's a neverending battle.

Jeff240sx has a great story of what happened to his KA-T. It by no means was his fault, but that is what happens when you have a modded car....$HIT GOES WRONG

[Jeff240sx]

Hmm.
I don't think that I've ever put the late Corvette and the late KA24DET #1 in the same thought before. Makes me think I'm not having very good luck in this quest for power. Oh well, **** it.
I recommend getting a different car to get the power you want. If you're inexperienced, on a budget and can't handle downtime/stress or maintenance, I wouldn't recommend a turbo hi-po I-4.
-Jeff

[240racer]

for the money if looks like you have, I'd get a MKIV supra. They have 320hp stock and easily make a reliable 500-700hp. They are maybe a little heavier, but with that much power who cares. The other option might be a Vette, with all this talk recently about vettes (mostly in off-topic) I'm surprised they don't come up more often as options. The stock C5 comes with 350hp and handles very nice. It's not an import, it doesn't have a turbo and it's got those pesky pushrods, but if you just drive it and don't worry about it, then it doesn't matter.

[Archy The Bear]

http://www.phase2motortrend.com/nsporturkitf.html there I figure if you running 25 psi you'll make or sucseed your goal

[nrcooled]

I am not trying to be a buzz kill but there is more work then just getting the power in the car...the main issue is to keep the power working in the car. Just make sure you know what you are getting into.

1. No more warrantee
2. No more trips to the Nissan Dealer for work
3. Performance shops are expensive ($75-$100/hr)
4. Power makes heat-> Heat creates wear and fatigue-> Then stuff breaks
5. You will aways be replacing parts and gaskets.

There are tons more but since I don't feel like typing you can find those out by yourself once you get your "350hp beast"

[Gesturewithoutmotion]

while some may be looking for the 350 hp level... about what level would a ka-t be pretty reliable and not break all the time?
reason i'm asking is that my realistic goal is to make a car that's simply fun to drive. i'm figuring that around the 250 whp is where i will want to be. however you people are making me think that even 200 whp out of a nissan motor is dancing with the devil.
my background is in honda motors. i've seen stock GSR's and even lower end LS modle integra's run for years on 8psi of boost and pushing anywhere from 170 to 240 horsepower. what is weaker in a nissan motor that honda does better? i always figured that if i increased cooling, tuned like a mother, swapped out weak engine internals and had backups that a nissan motor would be much stronger than a honda motor. where does my thinking go wrong?
(and before someone says it i'll go ahead and say it first, "you prolly went wrong when you started with honda's." ok ok... now seriously :))

[drift freaq]

i'm figuring that around the 250 whp is where i will want to be. however you people are making me think that even 200 whp out of a nissan motor is dancing with the devil.

not in the least. Lets break it down.

low mileage KA with Nsport turbo kit stage 1 7lbs boost roughly 200-225 at the wheels. Reliability ? not bad as long as you do not push it any harder. cost $3800 before taxes and shipping without install.
uprages to get more horses will add another $1000 to that base figure.
Ok , SR redtop . motorset with ecu and harness $1800 start adding figures for your koyo radiator $300 FMIC $800 . bov $200, downpipe $150, boost controller $350 total around $3600 being able to boost to 12lbs .
stock HP is 205 so your looking at around 250-260 with that setup i.e. somewhere around 225 at the wheels again. Of course again this is without install add a average of $1000-1500 for that.
we are relatively in the same ballpark here . Both of these are pretty reliable setups with the SR leaning slightly more to the reliable side.
Now for an extra $400-500 you could put on a S14 T28 turbo bolts right on add 440 injectors $500 and a z32 maf with some kind of piggyback management . you are looking into the 300-350hp range with reliability.
Another way to skin this cat is to install a S14 Blacktop SR price around $3000-$3200 stock HP 245 add the FMIC and boost controller your in 300 hp range. bolt on a larger turbo i.e. HKS Gt2530 and your looking at 337- 350 HP reliable.
All these setups I have outlined here put you in the range with reliability .
None of these setups are dancing with the devil . I know people running these numbers with these kind of setups on a daily basis.
so in a nutshell its not that hard to get reliable power out of a Nissan.
the trick is to get it done right from the start.
I see a lot of people messing up SR's and SR installs because they do not know what they are doing . They do not think it out . They do not realize if they are not adept at reading wiring diagrams and soldering then they should not go there. Leave it up to the pro's who do it for a business . Why because you will have a smile on your face when you drive your car away from the shop underboost and it just rips along.:D
On the KA side backyard jobs can be done. Its always going to be a hot rod . Hot Rods by there very nature always run a fine line in the realiability department. If you can't afford a Nsport kit , Fmax kit ,XS kit etc... then at least use their kit designs for the basis of your back yard home setup. If you do then you will get near realiability.
Both Jeff240sx and Ace have done their homework. These guys are putting together systems that will work. If they are having problems, the problems are a nature of which can actually happen to any turbo engine period.
350 hp out of a Nissan yes . Reliability ? Possible if you do your homework .
The only other question that comes to mind here is what do you want your engine to do? Be a stump pulling , ground pounding torque monster? Or a sweet revving sewing machine that romps around at 3.5-7.5k rpm and hauls ass like nobodies business when you stomp on it at 50 mph plus .
either engine can get the power its just the question of how do you like your beast.:D ;) hehehhehehehe
low end stomp or mid and upper end stomp

Oh ya for any of those people saying that the SR torque is so weak that put there stock KA back in . Ha you lie through your teeth or cannot tune a SR if your life depended on it.
there is quite a bit of torque in a SR its just different compared to the KA's and its basically a question of how you like your Coffee, drip or espresso:eek: :D ;) hehehhehehehe

[Gesturewithoutmotion]

ok then let me pose this question. on the ka with some forged pistons and the 98 - 00 (??) altima rings, and stock rods/crank... would a kit be reliable at stock boost? i mean knowing the way i do things i'd probably purchase a high efficiency radiator and other safe guards so that's not a problem... but would building the bottom end with just pistons suffice for a sturdy bottom end at the 7psi level?
also what are some fuel upgrades you would recommend? or should i just go gung-ho and get a standalone engine managment?

[Jeff240sx]

You can get a JWT ecu, 50# injectors, fuel rail, and fuel pump to get you to 7psi. It will also get you to 15psi, on the stock KA bottom end. Look at d240t2. The KA isn't weak by any means. And the rods are extremely overbuilt for the engine, and can handle that. The weakest point are the pistons, and you can definatly get away with the setup above with forged pistons with ease.
-Jeff

[Gesturewithoutmotion]

ok... sorry to steal the topic but one last question.
would you say it was better to grab the Nsport kit or would you recommend building your own kit and doing the above fueling?
thanks... i'm just building an info database...

[Jeff240sx]

Use the PM if you're gonna steal a topic. Since this has already been asked, I'll answer.
Get the parts piece by piece if you have time. If you don't, and have the cash, then get a kit.
If you piece everything together, you will get a better kit for cheaper (cuz the kits come with cheaper, lower quality parts.)
-Jeff

[thx247]

build your own kit. You can price out parts cheaper, you'll learn more about what it is you have under the hood other than "a kit." And you know how to upgrade your kit when the time comes that you want more boost.

Just reading about how turbo chargers affect an engines output, I don't really see why you cannot run a well tuned KA into the 350's without any major trouble. Sure its going to require a standalone and a well versed tuner to tune it...but reliability costs money so...no worries.

No I do not have the money for a MK4 supra. lol. so expensive.

I do have the money and time for a 350hp 240sx though.


(Going standalone on the Sr as well)

[sL103]

actually its a good site for OEM parts as well as Nissan Motorsport parts AKA NISMO

http://www.courtesyparts.com/nismo/s13/index.html

just say you are a tt.net member

Shawn