At last, depowered the rack.

[Bigsyke]

While back I disconnected the PS system. I kept the pully/pump for a belt tensioner, but removed everything else and looped the lines. Wasnt too bad, but I was conserned about the steering linkeage getting too worn.

I was worried about the splines stripping on the linkeage, so my mission was to de-power the rack. I've only found 1 writeup on the web -a Miata.

After 2 days its done, some fine tuning and wow, night and day difference. I removed the rack and pinion;

Everything was a bitch to get off. Nissan made sure you needed proper tools for this. 1st problem was the torx bolts. I used an 8mm socket. After drilling out the punch and finally getting the rack taken apart, I was dripping in sweat and blood.

Got the pinion out, removed the center seal

Got some Amsoil grease, new Moog tie rods, and put her back together. I cut all the lines and crimped them because its not needed.

After install, there is a Tensioner type thing that holds the pinion steady, I had to loosen that a bit, but its spring activated so there is still some light tension.

Finally a PS/manual setup that semi rivals a FWD car. I love it.


For all you guys who eliminated your power steering, this is a simple/cheap way to run a single belt for both your water pump and alternator.

parts needed:
SOHC Lower Alt bracket
SOHC Upper Alt bracket
SOHC water outlet (DOHC hits belt)
35" 3 rib belt

the water pump pulley and the outer most crank pulley are 3 rib but the alternator is 4 rib so you need to run it on the inner most set of ribs (as shown in the pics)

You'll need to use a spacer between the alternator and the upper alt. bracket. I used a exhaust manifold washer and it worked perfectly. you will also notice the belts will hit a certain spot on the upper alt bracket, but its nothing very minor grinding wont fix, you can see the spot on the 7th picture down.

The factory lower hose also lined up fine.

tested it to 8k+ rpm, with no issues.


Big thank you to my buddy Anthony (1991silvia), who is the one who figured out this setup.
http://flyinmiata.com/tech/depower.php?x=1
http://www.ka-t.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=34921&highlight=power+steering+delete

[soreballz]

So, compared to the way you had it before with the looped lines, how does it feel?

[Bigsyke]

It feels more managable. However mostly due to adjusting the tension.

Once the grease heats up its alot easier to steer.

[chibo]

I don't know how you do this with any decent sized tires, I dailied a S13 with 245's up front and broken-ass power steering. I almost died a few times... and parking lots sucked. I'm not a weak guy either. :rofl:

[Addicted2Kouki]

I don't know how you do this with any decent sized tires, I dailied a S13 with 245's up front and broken-ass power steering. I almost died a few times... and parking lots sucked. I'm not a weak guy either. :rofl:

Yeah, I wouldnt wanna deal with parking lots with no power steering.

[Wake]

i used to go on mountain runs on the regular with a failing pump so i just kep refilling the fluid so it wasnt too bad but parking lots with no fluid was a whole nother story. im sure the "manual" rack conversion is proper tho. as long its worth the effort (and price) then its a worthwhile upgrade IMHO.

[420sx]

not sure what kind of driving you do, i won't drift with no ps. definately no tandem.

[DisEpyon]

iv done the same with my car as well, i went off that miata write up and did the same to my rack.

My experience with it, it sux monkey balls. The feeling is very hard, and like said above, its a biatch to park it. i tried drifting and it really sux, to hard to turn the wheel. A true manual rack is designed differently, which is why most stock cars with a manual rack has a nice feel to it. Ive been driving with this for about a year and a half.

As of now im saving up for parts to put powersteering back on my car. reason why i went with the nonpowersteering setup is because my powersteering was not working properly to begin with, and i could not afford to spend the money on parts to figure out what was wrong with it.

[!Zar!]

No powersteering is dumb and pointless.

Matter of fact it's quite possibly one of THE dumbest mods to do to a s13 imo.

[raen419]

No powersteering is dumb and pointless.

Matter of fact it's quite possibly one of THE dumbest mods to do to a s13 imo.
I would almost agree, but the way the OP has depowered his rack is similar to how I did mine on my Miata, and it feels very little like the common way 240 guys remove PS.
Instead of looping the lines, and fighting the force of moving the fluid back and forth on your own, I took the rack completely apart, cut the collar off the main steering shaft (the one that pushes fluid back and forth in the rack), greased the whole thing down, and put it back together. The tension nut and locking collar is also adjustable, so the amount of force needed to turn the steering wheel can be lessened.
Its actually pretty sweet....however, my car runs 205/50/15 on 15x7 Panasports, and weighs 500-600 lbs less than a S13....so the feel is different. It also allows the driver to really feel what the tires are doing. Ask any road racer. Depowering steering like this to make it essentially a manual rack is one of the best things you can do to MOST lighterweight cars (by today's standards). I too am skeptical of how it feels.
I might pull a S13 rack from the junkyard just to find out...

[racepar1]

No powersteering is dumb and pointless.

Matter of fact it's quite possibly one of THE dumbest mods to do to a s13 imo.

In general yes it is. However removing the powersteering like the OP did is not a terrible idea. The P/S system is a sizeable chunk of weight to get rid of, a manual steering system offers better feedback, and disassembling the rack to basically make it a manual rack will make the steering effort much less.

I say we need a full write-up with pics or BAN!!!

And we need a review of the steering feel and effort or DIE!!!

LOL! :2f2f:

[S14DB]

No powersteering is dumb and pointless.

Matter of fact it's quite possibly one of THE dumbest mods to do to a s13 imo.

Naw man, it makes you more hardcore yo! You got's to be leet these days1!! :keke:


Power rack will always turn like shit without pressure. Only proper way to do this is to get a REAL manual rack. But, I think with the 240sx's caster angle this would still suck ass.

[Bigsyke]

Theres quite a difference between looping the lines, and removing the center oil seal and packing with grease.


DisEpyon did you back off the tensioner enough?

When I fineally got mine installed, I couldnt steer for shit. It wouldnt return to center. I jumped underneather the car, loosened mine back about 360* and locked it down.

Now on the highway its almost looser than a PS setup. Lock to lock I can tell im not hitting any restrictions like I did when I just looped the lines.

Im not the strongest dude, but I wouldnt ever go back. Parking is no problem.

Racepar1 I would totally do a writeup, but there is no way im going back to that hell.

But if you guys have any questions LMK.

Naw man, it makes you more hardcore yo! You got's to be leet these days1!! :keke:


Power rack will always turn like shit without pressure. Only proper way to do this is to get a REAL manual rack. But, I think with the 240sx's caster angle this would still suck ass.

Manual racks usually have a worse gear ratio. True its not exactly like a FWD depowered rack, but for "street" use, do you think playing around with the caster could help a bit?

[DisEpyon]

hmmm...

maybe i did not torque mine correctly.

what was your procedure on going about torqueing down the adjusting screw?

[slideways2004]

so taking out the power steering give you like 2whp and makes steering really hard and shitty.

[projectRDM]

so taking out the power steering give you like 2whp and makes steering really hard and shitty.

If you just loop it, yes. Everyone fails to realize there's more to it than that. The OP has essentially converted his rack to a manual unit, foregoing the need to run fluid or assist. 99.9% of people don't do that, they just take the system off creating just a power rack that's full of fluid sloshing around.
You guys need to get back to those RIF tapes and learn what's going on in this post.

If it wasn't for the need to run a tensioner for the water pump on a KA I would have done this years ago. But I don't like the idea of removing a big pump and bracket only to put something else right back in it's place. For SR guys this is a viable option, and easy as shit too.

[LA_phantom_240]

But, I think with the 240sx's caster angle this would still suck ass.

Care to elaborate? I assume by your post that a 240 has a relatively high caster angle to make it more stable in a straight line, sacrificing steering response and such... Is there anything you can add?

[Def]

Steering effort builds up much quicker with higher caster numbers.

I ran my rack with a very minimal amount of fluid and the lines run to a breather, which I imagine feels pretty close to this. It's not that bad, even in parking lots, but on track when the car is really loaded up it definitely gave me a workout. It was enough to where I'd be a little tired at the end of a track day after fighting the steering around every lap.

The car is much easier to drive at the limit with PS just because you can make corrections with a much lighter feel than all that effort on the wheel.

This was with 245/40s on 17x9's up front. The effort when you're at the limit of the tires is similar to trying to turn the wheels at about 1 mph in a parking lot - it's quite a bit. Off center it wasn't bad at all.

The effort was also enough to wear out my stock steering wheel that was in perfect shape before that. Delaminated the material from the steel ring.

[Z33TT]

I don't know how you do this with any decent sized tires, I dailied a S13 with 245's up front and broken-ass power steering. I almost died a few times... and parking lots sucked. I'm not a weak guy either. :rofl:

I was running 275 up front on my Z with no PS and it didn't feel that bad? :snoop:

[racepar1]

so taking out the power steering give you like 2whp and makes steering really hard and shitty.

It gains a few hp, removes like 20-30lbs of crap from the front of the car, and gives the steering theoretically better feedback and road feel.

I think I am going to try this with a shitty, leaking, regular s-13 rack and see how I like it. If I like it i'll do it to my hicas rack. I think the best solution for the belt on a ka would be a custom water pump pulley so that one belt drives the water pump and the alternator.

TO THE OP: Post a link to the miata write-up please. I would like to learn more about this conversion.

[raen419]

In general yes it is. However removing the powersteering like the OP did is not a terrible idea. The P/S system is a sizeable chunk of weight to get rid of, a manual steering system offers better feedback, and disassembling the rack to basically make it a manual rack will make the steering effort much less.

I say we need a full write-up with pics or BAN!!!

And we need a review of the steering feel and effort or DIE!!!

LOL! :2f2f:
Correct. All these naysayers are speaking out of ignorance. Just removing the pump and looping the lines is NOT THE SAME as actually depowering the rack itself and remove the pump/resevoir/lines.

To give you guys a better idea of what I did, take a look at this:
Flyin' Miata : Tech: 1.8 conversion (http://flyinmiata.com/tech/depower.php?x=1)
Its the best free mod I've ever done to the Miata. Might be the best for the S13 too. But like you, I'm grabbing a spare rack take apart and depower.

Btw, depowering my way (and flyinmiata's) = turning a PS rack into a manual one. There is ZERO difference between the two.

[s13dan]

Um the gears are designed to have pressure. So under cornering you will have to fight the full weight of the car. -:bigok:-Watch your thumbs-:bigok:- For drifting,if the car wants to snap back you better let it.

[Bigsyke]

Taking apart the rack, I learned alot how the actual PS system operates.

On a FWD car, I can assure it would be as easy if not easier to turn than a functioning PS setup, just a more direct feedback of the road.

On the 240's, I think the KA weight/caster/wider tires/wheels are the only things putting a restriction after the rack is depowered.

DisEpyon the manual states to torque the 12mm adjusting bolt to around 46lb's i think, then back it 70-110* counter clockwise, then torque it 1lb. THen lock the adjusting nut. After the rack is depowered I think alot of the stuff in the manual fly out the window;

The adjusting bolt pushes against a white retainer via a spring. All the tension you need now is just enough to put pressure against the shaft so the teeth contact the gear. I torqued it just enough so the pinion shaft cant rotate (slip off the dust boots adn try to turn the end of the inner tie rod, thats screwed into the pinion shaft). A slight drag, so trial and error. This would not be ideal for drifting, because then its a direct link on the tierods adn your thumbs, but autox/roadracing/daily driving its good. I also noticed an increase in my avg MPG, a rather big increase without the clutchfan/AC/PS.

IMO the white plastic retainer only holds pressure on the shaft so it contacts the gear. Too much pressure and the gear cant rotate so it seems like its WAY to stiff. - I would back off the adjusting bolt on looped racks about 90-150* counter clockwise and see if its a tad better.

Next thing I need to overcome is removing the pump and bracket. The suggested belt for the waterpump and crank is way to tight, and will not go on.

Then its caster, anybody in road racing with 240's have any suggestions, or positive caster something you have to have.

[DisEpyon]

thanks for the info..

ill try that out and see if i cant get my steering to feel any smoother. btw im more into road racing too, than drifting so hopefully my thumbs are safe :)

[racepar1]

Um the gears are designed to have pressure. So under cornering you will have to fight the full weight of the car. -:bigok:-Watch your thumbs-:bigok:- For drifting,if the car wants to snap back you better let it.

Dude you clearly have no idea how a powersteering rack differs from a manual one. It would be wise to shut your mouth before you get owned on the construction and operation of a P/S rack and pinion. For a drift car this is not the best as it is necessary to move the wheel as quickly as possible all the time. However there are a TON of guys out there drifting with ghetto disabled powersteering and this would be much better then that.

[DisEpyon]

hahahahaha, omg, just got done fixing my steering.

ahhhhh man, the feeling feels so much damn better than before.

Bigsyke: I just want to thank you for making this thread, if not i probably would have wasted my money on the plans i had to put powersteering back on my car. Now i can spend my money on getting more goodies for my suspension. Even better yet, the rack i am using is a hicas rack. For the longest time i felt so damn bad about doing this mod on a hicas rack, but now i do not regret a dam thing. My problem was that i was thinking that the adjusting screw needed a lot of pressure against the rack, but boy was i wrong. I take back anything i said in my previous post.

For those of you that want to know the feeling, ummmm... lets see, the best way i can describe it is as feeling like driving a actual car with a manual rack. For example: my brothers honda eg hatch that he uses for daily driving, it has a manual rack in it and it feels similar to a power steering car, not as smooth as a power steering car but pretty similar. Turning at low speeds and parking no longer feels tough and hard (still need a little muscle in it, but not bad at all), and driving in general when going straight has a smoother a looser feel, and the wheel returns back to center when letting go. I still would not recommend this for drifting but definitely for road race. Oh yea i almost forgot too, when people say that you have a better feeling and reaction to road and tires, that is true, feels really good and responsive.

I enjoy driving my car again!!
BOOOYYAAA!!!!

[Propaganda]

DisEpyon the manual states to torque the 12mm adjusting bolt to around 46lb's i think, then back it 70-110* counter clockwise, then torque it 1lb. THen lock the adjusting nut. After the rack is depowered I think alot of the stuff in the manual fly out the window;

The adjusting bolt pushes against a white retainer via a spring. All the tension you need now is just enough to put pressure against the shaft so the teeth contact the gear. I torqued it just enough so the pinion shaft cant rotate (slip off the dust boots adn try to turn the end of the inner tie rod, thats screwed into the pinion shaft). A slight drag, so trial and error. This would not be ideal for drifting, because then its a direct link on the tierods adn your thumbs, but autox/roadracing/daily driving its good. I also noticed an increase in my avg MPG, a rather big increase without the clutchfan/AC/PS.

IMO the white plastic retainer only holds pressure on the shaft so it contacts the gear. Too much pressure and the gear cant rotate so it seems like its WAY to stiff. - I would back off the adjusting bolt on looped racks about 90-150* counter clockwise and see if its a tad better.
This is super good information!

When I depowered my rack, I just tightened it as much as possible and then steering felt so-so..

[raen419]

Damnit. You guys are going to make me want to do this to my S13. I might do a pic/write-up too. But it'll be a quite a few weeks before I get around to it. Got a trip to the Dragon weekend after next and paint/sanding/paint to do until then.

[Caithness]

Sorry for the bump, but I think this information would go well with this thread:

Junkyard Power steering delete brackets for KA (http://www.ka-t.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=34921&highlight=power+steering+delete)

I'm planning on doing the Flyin' Miata depower and the junkyard single belt setup soon. I'll post my impressions of everything when I'm done.

[Bigsyke]

Sorry for the bump, but I think this information would go well with this thread:

Junkyard Power steering delete brackets for KA (http://www.ka-t.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=34921&highlight=power+steering+delete)

I'm planning on doing the Flyin' Miata depower and the junkyard single belt setup soon. I'll post my impressions of everything when I'm done.


You are the MAN!

Yea I did the flyin miata depower, and still to this day after tweaking it, its easier to turn than my GF's 05' Nissan Altima.

I will never go back, ever! Even if theres a fire!

[xs240]

^hahaha 'even if there's a fire' :P

[kabukie]

So I finally got around to taking apart a rack and doing this mod. Here are some pictures for those who need a visual reference. I am waiting on some rack bushings and $$$ for an alignment so I can install mine and check the feel difference. Anyhow here are the pics of the 240sx rack

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v644/P_Productions/DSC03924.jpg

Closer look at the parts

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v644/P_Productions/DSC03927.jpg

Heres the center seal

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v644/P_Productions/DSC03928.jpg

Center Seal removed
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v644/P_Productions/DSC03931.jpg

[Bigsyke]

Excellent job man.

Now when you reinstall, if you decide to keep the spring, hardly tighten it. You want almost no drag on the shaft, only enough to keep the shaft against the gear.

[JRas]

I don't know how you do it

240sx already has great steering feedback IMO

it's stiff but not light near perfect

what kind of driving do you do?

[Bigsyke]

daily driving autox/road racing.

Mostly daily driving, its perfect.

Ill never go back, you have 100% feedback from your suspension, I can tell exactly which part on my suspension is warn.

With power steering you have a damper. You cant truely feel the full effects of your suspension when you dont have a direct link to the ground.

I feel like im driving an f40

[Def]

No PS does feel good, but when going fast it really tires you out. I would feel completely worn out after a day of tracking with no PS, but with PS I find I'm much more alert at the end of the day without fighting the wheel.

[420sx]

wow. i guess to each its own. i can't imagine drifting with no power steering

[Bigsyke]

again like ive said before;

there is a difference between looping the rack, and removing the seal, greasing the rack and removing the tensioner

[schmauster]

too bad the 240s never came with manual steering... I drift my hardbody 24DET without power steering from the factory and becides turning the wheel 12509712057 times i dont have any complaints

[Ruff Ryder 6]

Excellent job man.

Now when you reinstall, if you decide to keep the spring, hardly tighten it. You want almost no drag on the shaft, only enough to keep the shaft against the gear.

So you're saying that i don't need the spring in there when i reassemble it? just making sure because i got my spare rack tonite and would like to do the tension right before i put it on the car.

[Bigsyke]

So you're saying that i don't need the spring in there when i reassemble it? just making sure because i got my spare rack tonite and would like to do the tension right before i put it on the car.

You can keep it, but do NOT torque it to factory specs.

You want almost NO drag on the shaft. Its only there to keep the shaft pressed against the gear. I removed mine.

If your doing alot of drifting I suggest you keep it because it will help prevent gear wear.

Yes tighten it outside of the car, this was you can see when the spring contacts the shaft. Then tighten the locking nut.

[Ruff Ryder 6]

don't plan on drifting with it, i plan on auto-x/track with it but that doesn't mean i won't slide it around on occasion having fun. so i suppose i will see what it feels like when i get it back together.

[xs240]

I have a spare HICAS rack i feel like trying this but im still a bit weary, not really a step by step take apart, put back together guide.

[SPiG]

To those who did it, which type of grease did you use? Not just brand but more of how thick it was. Amsoil has quite the selection and I am not sure if the Series 2000 would give a lighter steering and less resistance or a heavy duty one give better protection.

[Bigsyke]

To those who did it, which type of grease did you use? Not just brand but more of how thick it was. Amsoil has quite the selection and I am not sure if the Series 2000 would give a lighter steering and less resistance or a heavy duty one give better protection.


Removal and disassembly of the rack is quite novice. I used the blue amsoil grease, the FSM i believe tells you to use petroleum jelly.

[Caithness]

Well I'm a procrastinator and I just started working on this.

Has anybody tried simply pressing the metal center seal off with a hydraulic press? It almost looks pressed on when I look at it in person, but looking at the cut version in those pictures it looks like it fits into those grooves- not a press fit. Anybody who's seen a cut seal in person- does it look like it could be pressed off or is it locked into those grooves somehow?

*edit* I tried pressing off the metal seal and it didn't go well. The metal seal was deforming and I swear my eyes were playing tricks on me but it looked like the rack was starting to flex. I put a good bit of force on it and it didn't come off. After cutting the seal off I saw that it's locked into those grooves in the rack with a metal lock ring and by a lip on the seal itself. This isn't the job to justify that $300 press purchase with- cutting is the way to go.

Also, did anybody else have a horrible time getting the end cap off of the steering rack? I had to go buy a $20 3/4" drive 1-5/8" socket and 1/2"-3/4" adapter and I had to impact it for like five minutes straight to slowly loosen it until it came out. It looked like the lip of the steering rack tube may have been staked to hold it in- or was I just unlucky enough to have randomly hit something on the road that staked it for me?

*edit* Looking at it closely it was definitely staked. Wish I'd noticed that earlier. Since I already had the end cap out I cut out the staked section with a dremel. When I tightened the end cap back into the rack I finished the job by re-staking the end cap with a punch and mini-sledge. It was very easy to get another nice stake on the tube, and I'd recommend going ahead and doing it for that little bit of extra security.

[Bigsyke]

Yes its staked down, you need to drill the stake out.

[Koopa Troopa]

I thought about doing this to my Civic but have a hard enough time trying to turn it at low speeds as it is. FWD with an aggressive LSD is not fun to park with PS much less none.

Anyone have any experiences that can change my mind? I'd really like to depower the rack but I don't want to realize it sucks donkey nuts and is impossible to drive in a parking lot.

[Monooxide]

I have a depowered rack and I went one step farther in removing the end seals in the rack.

The car is easier to turn then just a removed belt on the pump or removed pump, but it still takes some effort however it's not NEAR as bad.

I also noticed that it tries to self center much better with the rack depowered.

Also, the people saying that the depowering of the rack removes upwards of 30 pounds are embellishing. I weighed the pump and it was roughly 7-8 pounds, the lines are around 3-4 and the resevoir isnt even 1 pound with fluid weighing maybe 2-3 pounds. So you're looking at 12-15 pounds at most.

Do not do this for reasons regarding weight.

Pros:
-Cleaner Engine Bay
-One less Engine oil
-Less parasitic drag on the engine

Cons:
-Harder to steer than PS enabled racks
-Requires grease maintenance

[Caithness]

Yes its staked down, you need to drill the stake out.

D'oh. Wish I 'd noticed that before the hassle. Oh well.

[DisEpyon]

I have a depowered rack and I went one step farther in removing the end seals in the rack.

The car is easier to turn then just a removed belt on the pump or removed pump, but it still takes some effort however it's not NEAR as bad.

I also noticed that it tries to self center much better with the rack depowered.

Also, the people saying that the depowering of the rack removes upwards of 30 pounds are embellishing. I weighed the pump and it was roughly 7-8 pounds, the lines are around 3-4 and the resevoir isnt even 1 pound with fluid weighing maybe 2-3 pounds. So you're looking at 12-15 pounds at most.

Do not do this for reasons regarding weight.

Pros:
-Cleaner Engine Bay
-One less Engine oil
-Less parasitic drag on the engine

Cons:
-Harder to steer than PS enabled racks
-Requires grease maintenance

did you weigh the power steering pump bracket from the motor? hehe.... or is that included with the weighing of the pump that you did?

Plus one for one less oil to worry about. Probably the most pain in the azz oil to deal with for those that have leak problems.

[Bigsyke]

I thought about doing this to my Civic but have a hard enough time trying to turn it at low speeds as it is. FWD with an aggressive LSD is not fun to park with PS much less none.

Anyone have any experiences that can change my mind? I'd really like to depower the rack but I don't want to realize it sucks donkey nuts and is impossible to drive in a parking lot.


Contemplating on your civic? The civic is a no-brainer. I could turn my EJ8-2 with a feather @ 1-2mph with the rack depowered.

The civic is a whole different experience with a depowered rack, in fact I would doubt there is more than a 5lbs/ft difference in turning effort at 5mph between PS and depowered on a civic, using a say a mugen wheel.

Ive gotten so used to the S14 being depowered that when I jump into the civic I forget its even lacking the powersteering.

Both cars are perfect, wouldnt go back to PS unless I had to.

Now that ive upgraded/replaced my front suspension/bushings in the S14 its much easier to turn, and much more responsive.

[Koopa Troopa]

Contemplating on your civic? The civic is a no-brainer. I could turn my EJ8-2 with a feather @ 1-2mph with the rack depowered.


With what diff? FWD with a decent LSD doesn't like to turn at low speeds.

[projectRDM]

Bringing it back, I'm in the process of doing this for a customer. Only his car has been converted to RHD and we're using an A31 steering rack. The disassembly is virtually the same as the Schassis rack except for the pinion top flange being held down with two M6 allen bolts instead of the three Torx, which made it easy to get apart. It's completely apart now save for the rack, I can't seem to find how it's secured in the housing. There's no snap ring on either end, nor is there anything to pry against, the FSM mentions drilling a hole but is unclear where to do so. I've removed the 36mm end plate already, how did you get the rack out fully to be able to cut the seal off?

[Monooxide]

did you weigh the power steering pump bracket from the motor? hehe.... or is that included with the weighing of the pump that you did?

Plus one for one less oil to worry about. Probably the most pain in the azz oil to deal with for those that have leak problems.

That is with the bracket. : /.

[V1A]

There's no snap ring on either end, nor is there anything to pry against, the FSM mentions drilling a hole but is unclear where to do so. I've removed the 36mm end plate already, how did you get the rack out fully to be able to cut the seal off?

I just took a s13 rack apart a few nights ago and had the same issue.

When I pulled on the rack, it would only come out so far, and it would start to slowly move back into the case like it was on a spring. Behind the 36mm end plate, a few inches into the case, there is a rubber seal between the rack and the case. I used a flat head screwdriver to bend the seal away from the case.

When I did this it made a popping noise, like it relieved some pressure, and the rack came right out.

Hope this helps.

[ixfxi]

You know, I cant believe I havent seen this thread in the many months that its been active.

Search the archives here on Zilvia, on Miata.net, or anywhere else I've posted and you'll hear me say the SAME fucking thing: MANUAL STEERING ROCKS. Seriously, its fucking awesome.

I'm sorry, but a lot of the new kids nowadays are just fucking pussies. We're living in the day and age of emo-playstation racers. If you want to play video games, go play video games. If you're a driver who wants to drive the fuck out of his car and feel the road, then no power steering is for you.

For drifting, and I mean pure drifting I cant say I would recommend it. It could be functional on a very very light racecar, but if all you're doing is drifting, you'll probably want the PS setup. Its less of a workout.

I've removed it from my S13 racecar and from my NB Miata. Very simple, ditch the reservoir and the lines. With the lines removed and your car jacked in the air on stands, swing the wheel back and fourth repeatedly until the fluid is as empty as possible. Cap the rack ports and you're good to go. NO NEED TO LOOP THE LINES.

Ive driven my cars for YEARS like this with no wear on the rack. I figure whatever little fluid is in there should still keep the rack lubed. Nowadays since my car is being restored, I am thinking of disassembling the rack and cleaning and greasing it.

I am also thinking of picking up a HICAS rack and seeing how it would be with the tighter rack. Now that I am running such a wide wheel & tire setup, its going to be interesting seeing which rack I prefer - in addition to which steering wheel I prefer. I have a 320mm MOMO wheel that I've ran and well, the larger 350mm wheel does indeed help.

In conclusion, dont worry about the steering being too heavy, its not. I'm 5'8" and not a huge guy, and its perfectly easy to steer. When driving you dont even notice it, the only time you'll maybe want it back is if you have to parallel park, THATS IT.




Ditch the fucking PS, fruitcakes.


ps: There's a HUGE benefit in being able to feel water, gravel and such when you run things over with your front tires. If you like how S13's notify you when the back starts to slide, you'll love how with no PS the front tires provide equally important feedback.

[projectRDM]

I just took a s13 rack apart a few nights ago and had the same issue.

When I pulled on the rack, it would only come out so far, and it would start to slowly move back into the case like it was on a spring. Behind the 36mm end plate, a few inches into the case, there is a rubber seal between the rack and the case. I used a flat head screwdriver to bend the seal away from the case.

When I did this it made a popping noise, like it relieved some pressure, and the rack came right out.

Hope this helps.

Bingo. I figured that was it, I'll go beat on it later. After doing this one I'm seriously considering doing my own car as well, it's so damn easy and the benefit of having all that shit removed looks killer.

You know, I cant believe I havent seen this thread in the many months that its been active.

Search the archives here on Zilvia, on Miata.net, or anywhere else I've posted and you'll hear me say the SAME fucking thing: MANUAL STEERING ROCKS. Seriously, its fucking awesome.

NO NEED TO LOOP THE LINES.

Ive driven my cars for YEARS like this with no wear on the rack. I figure whatever little fluid is in there should still keep the rack lubed. Nowadays since my car is being restored, I am thinking of disassembling the rack and cleaning and greasing it.



Mike, do it the above way, making a true manual rack, you'll love it even more.

[ixfxi]

Mike, do it the above way, making a true manual rack, you'll love it even more.

with the car inactive at the moment, i will. but, i will pickup a spare hicas rack FIRST. do it to the hicas rack, then fuck with the normal rack, then decide which rack i like best (besides sylvia saint's)

[yokotavia]

very frustrated with my power steering lines,pump, and belt as im putting my s13 drift car back together.

going to take apart a spare rack i have and check it out.
its semi difficult to imagine where all the parts go without doing it yourself.

will take some pics of everything when i do it.

[projectRDM]

It's literally cake. I've now done three of them for people, it's so easy it's stupid.

[Bigsyke]

Make sure you adjust/release the tension on the tensioner and pack that area with grease otherwise your fighting useless drag - night and day difference. The tensioner is to control the ammount of pressure on the shaft, to keep the steering wheel from jumping around with PS intact [and keep the shaft pressed against the gear - but ive never run into any abnormal wear or issues] if removed, there is still a little bit of a loose feeling, but full out drifting is fucking cake. Its solid

The drilling part of the FSM should refer to the punched/staked section on the passenger side cover, which prevents you from removing the shaft fully.


The only question now is, what caster setting is optimal for the depowered rack, for casual road racing.


Update: there was a thread on KA-t somewhere I believe to fully remove the pump/pully while still retaining the OEM water pump. I think you need a

Sohc alternator pully, upper thermostat housing and one other part I dont remember.

If someone can find it that would be kick ass!

[wgJoY]

WOW.

A ton of good information in this thread.

[Mangudai]

I'd definitely do this if someone did a write up, though it sounds simply I'd probably find a way to fuck it up. Plus, my pump is dying anyhow this would save me a lot of money.

[yokotavia]

with a SR20, the power steering belt is separate from the alternator belt.

so if you have an sr, this is ideal to do if you dont feel like dealing with leaky powersteering

i just did mine today, but left my camera in a friends car..
will update with pics and a semi writeup in a few hours.

one question, i cut the metal "seal" off the rack, but am i suppose to leave the rubber seals in on the rack?

i left the black rubber seals ON the rack and packed it with grease and re installed everything and lessened the tension on the spring.

its pretty much awesome, my car isnt running yet, but once i get the rack in ill let you guys know how the steering feels.

[Bigsyke]

You have to cut the rubber seal to remove the metal one. The only seal that will be left is the drivers side seal...the passenger endcap will have its own seal i believe.

[projectRDM]

You have to cut the rubber seal to remove the metal one. The only seal that will be left is the drivers side seal...the passenger endcap will have its own seal i believe.

I didn't cut the rubber on mine, I hit it with a chisel and tilted it on the shaft, allowing the shaft to slide out. I then put it back in when finished, but you are correct, the end plate will seal it too.

[SPiG]

The only hard/non-self explanatory part I found was the drilling/staking part. The nice thing is that once you remove the metal seal on the shaft, you never have to remove that end ever again really. Besides that it was pretty straight forward.

[Otto347]

Excellent info, anyone have a picture of the staked part that has to be drilled?

[projectRDM]

The rack I converted didn't have to be drilled, turns out it was from an R33, so apparently at least some of them don't require that. I thought it was an A31 but was corrected by the owner.

[Monooxide]

I actually got to drive drive my car last night and today.

Turning in the car of course takes more effort than a rack taking advantage of the PS but nothing bad at all. The parking lot dead stop steering is nowhere near as bad as a depowered rack without being modified.

I overall think it was a great modification given that I had a busted line.

[Bigsyke]

Updated 1st page with some info on how to remove the PS pump from the DE

[TurboSE]

****bringing it back from the grave****

This mod looks easy enough and sounds like it has somegood qualities....now here's my "big" question...

sounds like a good mod on KA's and SR's...what about doing it with the added weight of an RB (26 to be exact)? On a street car?

A rather knowledgible friend of mine and I talked it over and basically came to the conclusion that on a car as front heavy as an RB26/S13, power-steering is my friend.

Opinions?

[Bigsyke]

I did it on an auto KA24de, swapped in a 5speed and its the exact same.

[Mr.J]

For those that have depowered racks, what rack are you using, HICAS or non-HICAS? The reason I ask is that I have a HICAS rack and am considering depowering it. I know that there is a difference in steering ratio, HICAS being 2.6 turns lock-to-lock and non-HICAS being 3.1 turns. I would think that with a depowered HICAS rack more steering effort would be required, but is it significant/ noticeable? Would I be better off sourcing a non-HICAS rack for the conversion?

Thanks.

[murda-c]

Aren't hicas racks relatively rare?

I'd say source a normal rack. Should be able to get one on the cheap.

[projectRDM]

Agreed. HICAS racks are far more in demand and you could easily sell it to offset any loss to someone who's going to continue running power steering. But to answer your question I doubt a depowered HICAS rack would seem any different than a non HICAS as far as feel, the drag on the rack is adjustable so either one will have the same weight if tensioned the same.

[Bigsyke]

IMO there is no need to even keep the tensioner as long as the rack is fully packed.

I see the tensioner as 2 things;

To adjust the return to center for a P/S setup

possibly press the shaft to the gear. But there is almost 0 shaft play regardless since the pinion is a tube shape with rubber oil seals.

I say remove the spring and shims on the rack and call it a day, since it helps a bit if you have wider front tires at speed. You get used to it.

At idle/not moving there is 0 difference with the tensioner/different rack because its still a direct connection to the tires. The reason its so tough to turn is because your lifting 1 side of the car up via a camber change.

[Mr.J]

I understand about the tensioner, etc, but my question was more based on the mechanical advantage of the racks, with the non-HICAS having a higher gear ratio, making it easier to turn.

I'm a little torn about which direction to go, because I have the HICAS rack, but my S13 is RHD, so finding a RHD non-HICAS may not be so cheap.

Has anyone done this to a HICAS rack and if so, what is your feedback?

[Otto347]

****bringing it back from the grave****

This mod looks easy enough and sounds like it has somegood qualities....now here's my "big" question...

sounds like a good mod on KA's and SR's...what about doing it with the added weight of an RB (26 to be exact)? On a street car?

A rather knowledgible friend of mine and I talked it over and basically came to the conclusion that on a car as front heavy as an RB26/S13, power-steering is my friend.

Opinions?Well im using one in my s13 and I have an iron block LSx so ill let you know the first time I drive it.

[xs240]

^mwahaha i like the sound of the ls :D Wait... iron block? Which one? I thought all LS were aluminum blocks and aluminum heads. Truck motor? 5.3liter one? Is it iron block?

[S14DB]

^mwahaha i like the sound of the ls :D Wait... iron block? Which one? I thought all LS were aluminum blocks and aluminum heads. Truck motor? 5.3liter one? Is it iron block?

GM LS engine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_LS_engine)

[ZAKU]

For the people who have de-powered their racks, what size wheels/tires do you run?

I currently have 17x8 +35's on the front with 225/45 tires, I want to make sure the larger width tire and wheel, as well as a lower offset won't significantly increase steering effort BEFORE I de-power my rack.

[drifterdave]

im gonna be looping my lines, in a couple of days, ever since my ps pump has been failing, i dont really put ps fluid in it, but iam gonna be using my car just for drifting, and i really only like the car with out power steering. when i do put fluid in my car i cant stand driving it, and when i do slide my car, i almost always over counter, and but when i dont have power steering i have no problems at all, is anyone else like this? or does any one like drifting without power steering? cuse i do! but i think im gonna try and pick up another rack and start on this project.

[Matej]

Has anyone on here with an Unorthodox pulley done the DOHC single belt conversion? I am just trying to figure out what would be the best belt size to use.

[GSXRJJordan]

For the people who have de-powered their racks, what size wheels/tires do you run?

I currently have 17x8 +35's on the front with 225/45 tires, I want to make sure the larger width tire and wheel, as well as a lower offset won't significantly increase steering effort BEFORE I de-power my rack.

It doesn't change that much, I've run 17x8.5 +20 and 18x10 +0 fronts with and without the power steering, and the wheel size doesn't change much. Wider tires will change how it feels, but overall effort is more dependent on camber (cause you only 'feel' it when you're stopped/going really slow).

im gonna be looping my lines, in a couple of days, ever since my ps pump has been failing, i dont really put ps fluid in it, but iam gonna be using my car just for drifting, and i really only like the car with out power steering. when i do put fluid in my car i cant stand driving it, and when i do slide my car, i almost always over counter, and but when i dont have power steering i have no problems at all, is anyone else like this? or does any one like drifting without power steering? cuse i do! but i think im gonna try and pick up another rack and start on this project.

You didn't put fluid in your pump, and now it's failing. Your car is used "only" for drifting, and you're going to depower the rack? I don't know a single person that actually drifts their car (at events and such) that prefers (or would even drive with) a depowered rack. It's dumb - you CANT counter fast enough for a real initiation, and fuck trying to initiate with the ebrake when it takes two hands on the wheel to swing it... even with my hydro mounted right next to the wheel, it just wasn't happening. Don't handicap yourself.

Has anyone on here with an Unorthodox pulley done the DOHC single belt conversion? I am just trying to figure out what would be the best belt size to use.

Ewwww, KA questions are icky.

[Matej]

Personally, I actually like the idea of getting a workout while driving/drifting my car.

[ZAKU]

I've driven both AE86's and EF Civics with manual racks and no matter how good a PS system may be, nothing can match the feel of a manual rack.

As for drifting with a manual rack, I know it's popular on AE86 and older corolla's, but s-chassis cars weigh significantly more so I don't think it's a very good idea.

[Bigsyke]

I've driven both AE86's and EF Civics with manual racks and no matter how good a PS system may be, nothing can match the feel of a manual rack.

As for drifting with a manual rack, I know it's popular on AE86 and older corolla's, but s-chassis cars weigh significantly more so I don't think it's a very good idea.


Weight doesnt mean shit here. Its the suspension.

I went from an auto, full a/c => 5speed with some significant weight reduction, and the depowered rack was the exact same. There was no reduced steering effort with removing the 300+lbs in the front. So i doubt engines make a difference.

The only way to really get an idea for what size belt to use is get a tape measure like they use at fabric stores, remove about 1-2cm and thats the belt you need. The alternator can still make up for any slack/free play since you seem to have alot of adjustment.

One thing I did notice when I had the front of my car slammed, and the rears were only slightly lowered was the steering effort was insanely easy. I drove like that for about 2 weeks before lowering the rears and then the steering effort went back to normal.

I dont drift my car, its strictly daily driving for now. Drifting w/o ps could potentially snap those whimpy u-joints on the coupler.

[Matej]

Wish the feedback wasn't so divided. Some people claim they love drifting with no power steering, while others say it is impossible.

[Bigsyke]

I assume their suspension setups are different. Guessing from the difference in resistance just from the ride height varrying from the front/rear (when I only installed the front springs) I guess its possible to make it driftable.

[GSXRJJordan]

I assume their suspension setups are different. Guessing from the difference in resistance just from the ride height varrying from the front/rear (when I only installed the front springs) I guess its possible to make it driftable.

There's a reason why every professional drift car that can have power steering, does. You'll never drift "better" without it, and my feedback is that it's damned-near impossible to initiate correct with the ebrake without it.

[Driftastic]

This post was very helpful! :bigok:

I have been contemplating going manual with my rack cause currently the car is a shell and thats just one more thing to worry about working properly and i love the feel of the road with a manual steering setup. However the primary function of the car will be drifting so it probably would not be the best idea but maybe ill make a spare manual rack and try it out to see just how bad it is.

[Howlermonkey]

One thing that can suffer from parking lot driving with de-powered rack is your steering wheel itself.

I de-powered the rack on my Z31 and the effort in parking eventually caused my Z32 steering wheel padding to separate from the rim underneath netting me a twisty feeling wheel.

That sucked.

As other people have mentioned, the U-joints now are being used a bit harder and the rubber coupler found on the Z31 inside the tube that goes through the firewall will eventually hog out from the extra loading and you will end up with play in the steering.

[Bigsyke]

Then again, Ive never drifted the car, ive broke the rear end loose a few times when I had 15x6's, however now I have 18x10's and cant break the rear end loose for anything. Steering effort is slightly increased with the massive fucking tires, but not by much.

I do wish I made a fitting so I can regrease the rack, now if only someone knew what the optimal type of grease would be. I used some amsoil, forgot the type but it was blue.

[GSXRJJordan]

Then again, Ive never drifted the car, ive broke the rear end loose a few times when I had 15x6's, however now I have 18x10's and cant break the rear end loose for anything. Steering effort is slightly increased with the massive fucking tires, but not by much.

I do wish I made a fitting so I can regrease the rack, now if only someone knew what the optimal type of grease would be. I used some amsoil, forgot the type but it was blue.

I'd imagine you'd want something high temp (so it doesn't get hot and "crusty"), but not too thick... black molybdenum grease? I just thought about it because that's what I'm having to pick up so I can grease my input shaft bearing.

[projectRDM]

Wish the feedback wasn't so divided. Some people claim they love drifting with no power steering, while others say it is impossible.

I love how everyone assumes that every Schassis mod is meant for drifting. There needs to be separate threads I guess, because not everyone drifts their cars. Those who actually track or autocross like the feel of a depowered rack. I love it, it's very easy to drive without the effort needed from a fluid filled dead rack like people have done in the past. But then again, I don't drift, so I wouldn't know how it feels in that situation. Nor would I care.

[g81981]

Any more people experience/experiment with this method?

[Matej]

I love how everyone assumes that every Schassis mod is meant for drifting. There needs to be separate threads I guess, because not everyone drifts their cars. Those who actually track or autocross like the feel of a depowered rack. I love it, it's very easy to drive without the effort needed from a fluid filled dead rack like people have done in the past. But then again, I don't drift, so I wouldn't know how it feels in that situation. Nor would I care.
Not sure where you saw me assuming that all S-chassis mods are meant for drifting. I don't even care about the ones that are. :(
Although I see how my post could be misinterpreted, but I was referring to feedback from people who do or have tried to drift with no power steering.

Anyway, I finally drove an S13 with just the lines unhooked, and it was not bad at all. I can't wait to do this.

[ixfxi]

Not sure where you saw me assuming that all S-chassis mods are meant for drifting. I don't even care about the ones that are. :(
Although I see how my post could be misinterpreted, but I was referring to feedback from people who do or have tried to drift with no power steering.

Anyway, I finally drove an S13 with just the lines unhooked, and it was not bad at all. I can't wait to do this.

thats not a manual rack, dude. you're still PUSHING (and pulling!!!) all that fluid through the rack.

drain the rack, remove the lines, throw everything in the garbage... then you've got a manual setup. just be fucking sure that the rack is empty of almost all fluid and youre set.

[Otto347]

Finally got mine finished up, welded the holes closed on the rack and am going to put a grease fitting some where to keep it lubed....

http://otto-fab.com/pics/IMG00001-20090808-1803_rackdone.jpg

http://otto-fab.com/pics/IMG00002-20090808-1841_racktogether.jpg

[owner240]

^Make sure to take even more pix of your process :)

Good job.

It's really helpful when people do step by step photo tuts.

Oh and do post your experience :)

[owner240]

For those interested in a true manual rack lo and behold:

Interest Check: Performance true manual rack for s13 and s14: 240SX Forum / 180SX Forum / Silvia Forum: Nissan Forums / Infiniti Forums - NICOclub (http://forums.nicoclub.com/zerothread?&id=442963&postid=4983884#4983884)

[ixfxi]

FYI...... i finally got a chance to work on the front end of my undercarriage today and that meant dropping the steering rack after near 5 years of manual steering.

i took most of the rack apart and everything inside looks perfect, I was kinda thinking that years of use without grease/fluid would cause some wear, but nope.. it was all clean. there was still a tiny bit of fluid left in the rack, which kinda surprised me... i turned the rack real quick and almost got a facial of fuckin power steering fluid, fucking sick.. i know. one side of my garage looks like it got nut on by peter north!


jokes aside, i still need 2 more spanners before i can remove my tie rod ends... a 22mm and a 41mm... gaddamn who uses wrenches this big? not me.

it appears all the pics from this thread are history now, which sucks balls. i'll update in the next week or so with updates.

i am also working on grabbing a hicas rack and comparing the differences. i think it will be nice to have a close-ratio rack. it'll be a bitch normally but should be real nice when up to speed.

mike

[onepuff]

FYI...... i finally got a chance to work on the front end of my undercarriage today and that meant dropping the steering rack after near 5 years of manual steering.

i took most of the rack apart and everything inside looks perfect, I was kinda thinking that years of use without grease/fluid would cause some wear, but nope.. it was all clean. there was still a tiny bit of fluid left in the rack, which kinda surprised me... i turned the rack real quick and almost got a facial of fuckin power steering fluid, fucking sick.. i know. one side of my garage looks like it got nut on by peter north!


jokes aside, i still need 2 more spanners before i can remove my tie rod ends... a 22mm and a 41mm... gaddamn who uses wrenches this big? not me.

it appears all the pics from this thread are history now, which sucks balls. i'll update in the next week or so with updates.

i am also working on grabbing a hicas rack and comparing the differences. i think it will be nice to have a close-ratio rack. it'll be a bitch normally but should be real nice when up to speed.

mike

Just use a couple crescent wrenches.

[mattro]

Um the gears are designed to have pressure. So under cornering you will have to fight the full weight of the car. -:bigok:-Watch your thumbs-:bigok:- For drifting,if the car wants to snap back you better let it.


thats what im saying. my car didnt come with ps and ive damn near took me whole arm off!

[Bigsyke]

For those interested in a true manual rack lo and behold:

Interest Check: Performance true manual rack for s13 and s14: 240SX Forum / 180SX Forum / Silvia Forum: Nissan Forums / Infiniti Forums - NICOclub (http://forums.nicoclub.com/zerothread?&id=442963&postid=4983884#4983884)


im curious how ahmed thinks a custom rack will make it easier to turn?

The OE rack outside of the car has almost no resistance.

Its the S chassis suspension setup which makes it difficult.

I have 9.5" fronts, its just as easy to turn as 6" fronts.


I still have mine vented to help with high speed windage.

[ZAKU]

It's been a while since I first asked, but I finally swapped in my de-powered rack this weekend and so far I have mixed reviews.

The Good:

- KA-E alternator brackets works great, I love the one belt setup and all the open room in the engine bay.
- Road feel is perfect, just like my old manual rack honda

The Bad:
- Even after removing the tensioner spring, it just feels too tight. It feels great at first but after a 1/8ths turn of the steering wheel it tightens up very quickly. It's manageable during daily driving and low speed turns but it really feels like the wheels are fighting me and want to straighten out. Tight u-turns are "fun" to say the least.

The most frustrating part is I removed the tensioner spring, pulled the dust boot and tightened the adjuster until the rack stopped rotating and it was WAY too stiff. I've backed the adjuster off about 180 degrees and I can see the rack rotate if I put a wrench on it and it's still uncomfortably stiff.

I'm sure I can get the rack to loosen up by backing the adjuster off even more, but I'm already worried it's too far back.

Either way I'll wait for my alignment tomorrow too see if it changes anything.

[Bigsyke]

You shouldve removed everything inside the adjusting hole, and just used the plug to seal the area. You dont need the tensioner, you should have no slop if your suspension is safe.

The tensioner just controls the drag on getting the rack back to 0, and is not needed on a non-power setup.

I did this to my truck and its much more preferable, even on a nissan pathfinder.

Maybe you need to get used to it, or you did something wrong/missed something.

Use a grease with Moly in it, like redline.

You should post what you used to make the One belt setup? just the alternator bracket?

[ZAKU]

The tensioner just controls the drag on getting the rack back to 0, and is not needed on a non-power setup.

Is that really all it does? I thought that it also helped support the shaft on the drivers side of the rack, like how the big aluminum end cap supports that passenger side.

Maybe you need to get used to it, or you did something wrong/missed something.

After the alignment it did feel better, even though they only needed to adjust the toe. Maybe I was a little too harsh at first.

It also doesn't help that my last car was an EF Civic with manual steering and the front sway removed, that probably has me a little biased.

Use a grease with Moly in it, like redline.

Redline wasn't available so I used this; Red 'N' Tacky Grease : Lucas Oil (http://www.lucasoil.com/products/display_products.sd?iid=46&catid=14&loc=show&headTitle=%20-%20Red%20%27N%27%20Tacky%20Grease)

You should post what you used to make the One belt setup? just the alternator bracket?

I followed the guide on ka-t.org you posted earlier. A squeaking has suddenly developed so I'll be double checking it in the morning but it seems good so far.

[TerminalSamurai]

Bringing this back from the dead, again.

Any feedback on the difference between the hicas and non hicas rack?

I'm interested in doing this, I used to have Honda EC1, and I loved the manual steering feel.

[TurboSE]

Alot of debate on this....weekend driver/straight-line track car w/10" wide front wheels and an RB26....opinions?

[obsolete]

http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/968/img00001200908081803rac.jpg (http://img717.imageshack.us/i/img00001200908081803rac.jpg/)

is there a way to take this piece off other than torx socket?

[Bigsyke]

The picture you posted is the tensioner, and there is no torx, only a 12mm head, and a locking stop nut. Pack that area and the rest of the rack with a synthetic grease that is 5% moly. Mobil1 is not recomended. For cheap this may work and you can get it locally.
http://ec1-images.acehardwareoutlet.com/225/products/998016857_090707_vs.bmp


The gear shaft housing uses 3 torx bolts, I hammered a small 8-9mm socket on them IIRC.

I run 10" fronts. Pretty tough to turn at a very slow speed regardless of how you have your rack setup. At about 5mph I dont notice it much.

[Bigsyke]

Obsolete whats behind there should be a tension spring to keep the shaft pressed against the gear. I found out today that you do infact need that. Its supposed to have a spring, 3 shims and a white tensioner.

I had a rough vibration when turning at high speeds, it was because there was slack on the pinion shaft and the gear. When I reinstalled the tensioner the steering response significantly improved and the vibrations stopped. I had it set just right to give just enough tension, but not to disallow the steering from centering itself.

[TurboSE]

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n112/TurboSE1980/SteeringSystem_page001.jpg

I'm more the visual type...and there seem to bee a few different opinions on how to do this...anybody care to share exactly what they removed/modified using the page from the FSM?

I think I've got the basic idea from the Miata site, but I'd just like some clarification.

[youngkadafi]

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n112/TurboSE1980/SteeringSystem_page001.jpg

I'm more the visual type...and there seem to bee a few different opinions on how to do this...anybody care to share exactly what they removed/modified using the page from the FSM?

I think I've got the basic idea from the Miata site, but I'd just like some clarification.

Remove;

-Rack seal ring on rack assembly

Plug the 2X fittings on the gear housing, Or loop them with a hose.

Make sure you remove the Pinion rack housing assembly with a torx socket, Pack the entire rack (everythign) with grease containing 5% molybdenum. Cap all fittings on rear housing assembly.

Make sure no dust or moisture can get in the rack.
Done.

[TurboSE]

Remove;

-Rack seal ring on rack assembly

Plug the 2X fittings on the gear housing, Or loop them with a hose.

Make sure you remove the Pinion rack housing assembly with a torx socket, Pack the entire rack (everythign) with grease containing 5% molybdenum. Cap all fittings on rear housing assembly.

Make sure no dust or moisture can get in the rack.
Done.

cool, so the only thing to remove is the rack ring seal...easy as that. Nice. Thanks

[lflkajfj12123]

Not sure where you saw me assuming that all S-chassis mods are meant for drifting. I don't even care about the ones that are. :(
Although I see how my post could be misinterpreted, but I was referring to feedback from people who do or have tried to drift with no power steering.

Anyway, I finally drove an S13 with just the lines unhooked, and it was not bad at all. I can't wait to do this.

Pretty sure Simba crashed his car drifting without powered rack. He said its very hard to turn the wheel when it hits full lock, IIRC. Power steering is a must for drifting.

[Bigsyke]

Yea you clearly wouldnt want to do this on a drift car. A street driven car is fine. I did it because its easier to tune the suspension when the PS isnt dampening the wheel.

[ZAKU]

The gear shaft housing uses 3 torx bolts, I hammered a small 8-9mm socket on them IIRC.

I used a snap-on 12-point 5/16 wrench. Fit PERFECTLY.

[TurboSE]

Started doing this tonight, here are some thoughts, opinions and questions:

-5/16" 12pt. socket makes easy work of the torx bolts
-PB Blaster is a "must have" for the fittings.
-The "steering fluid facial" is a very real threat, I'd highly recommend safety glasses.
-If you're gonna paint you gear housing, you're gonna need a lot of degreaser.

-Did you guys use a heat gun on the seal like the FSM says or cut it like the Miata guy?
-Any need to keep the black washer inside the gear housing?
-Any idea where I can get replacement lock washers for my tie rods?

[Bigsyke]

Cut it very carefully like the miata guy if your going to actually pack the rack...if your going to just grease it up real good, then you can just cut the seal.

[TurboSE]

My rack was about empty of all lubricants when I pulled it...is it normal to have grease coming out the driver's side shaft? The passenger side is clean and shiny...driver is red and greasy.

Also, any idea where I can get the lock washers to replace the ones ruined when I removed my tie rods?

[Bigsyke]

Means the drivers side seal is torn on the actual housing, and the ATF became contaminated and sludged up.

You may need new tie rod arms, thats the only way I got new locking clips.

[TurboSE]

Means the drivers side seal is torn on the actual housing, and the ATF became contaminated and sludged up.

You may need new tie rod arms, thats the only way I got new locking clips.

Can you see this becoming a issue with a modified rack?

[Bigsyke]

Not with a modified one, im sure its pretty tough for dirt to get in there unless you arent runing any boots on the tie rods.

[TurboSE]

Not with a modified one, im sure its pretty tough for dirt to get in there unless you arent runing any boots on the tie rods.

That's kinda what I figured. Any ideas on installing a grease-fitting in the pinion housing? Maybe fill/drill/tap on of the fittings?

[Corbic]

No powersteering is dumb and pointless.

Matter of fact it's quite possibly one of THE dumbest mods to do to a s13 imo.


Exactly. Anytime I see a swapped 89/90 without PS I think "HACKJOB" as the owner was to lazy to do it right and find the PS lines.

But to go out of your way and delete PS on a PS rack is just stupid. I've had pumps fail on my car and that just sucks.

I've also driven cars with Manual Steering and when you have a rack with ratios and that is designed for it, it's alright.

So looping or packing your PS rack to run no PS, that, once again, is a Hack Job.

Get a manual rack or leave it alone.

[TurboSE]

Exactly. Anytime I see a swapped 89/90 without PS I think "HACKJOB" as the owner was to lazy to do it right and find the PS lines.

But to go out of your way and delete PS on a PS rack is just stupid. I've had pumps fail on my car and that just sucks.

I've also driven cars with Manual Steering and when you have a rack with ratios and that is designed for it, it's alright.

So looping or packing your PS rack to run no PS, that, once again, is a Hack Job.

Get a manual rack or leave it alone.


If you don't spend money, it's not a good mod....

[TerminalSamurai]

So I'm in the process of doing this on a spare rack, does anyone have any idea what the actual Torx Socket Size is? I've pretty much completely rounded one of the bolts with differant tools, including a 5/16ths 12pt box end.

[stinky_180]

Get a manual rack or leave it alone.

or depower the rack.

[az_240]

This is a little off-topic but I just got a HICAS rack today. There is a slight rough spot where the shaft gets kinda stuck when I try turning the knuckle. It feels like the shaft dips down slightly in that one spot when the shaft rolls over it... almost like there is a tooth missing. The rack feels solid everywhere else besides that one spot near the center.

Any ideas what this could be? Could a rebuild correct this? Anyone know of any rebuild kits?

Thanks

[Matej]

Bump from the future.

Does anyone on here provide this rack de-powering service if one sends them their rack?
Or would anyone happen to have an already 'properly' de-powered S13 rack for sale?
Cheers.

[racepar1]

Bump from the future.

Does anyone on here provide this rack de-powering service if one sends them their rack?
Or would anyone happen to have an already 'properly' de-powered S13 rack for sale?
Cheers.

I can de-power and powdercoat your rack, it's really pretty simple. Mine feels amazing pushing the car around. When it still had an engine in it and 275/40/17 ra1's steering was a one handed affair whether the car was moving or not. Granted the car was not complete and was still a little light, but I think it would have been acceptable fully assembled.

[the a3k]

another bump!

i have a rb25 s14 and definitely want to convert mine to a manual rack

[Slammed180]

Get your head out of your ass, and get to work then.

[the a3k]

Get your head out of your ass, and get to work then.

calm down lol

[NoPistons!]

Bump for old ass thread because i have searched since i woke up thismorning with the sole intent to depower my rack and relocate it 20mm or so forwards.....

I have my rack completely apart and clean right now. ALready notched the piston too.

http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff457/potatoesbarnaby/s13psrackpistonsealmod.jpg

First of all, this little spool valve from what i'm reading causes friction because of the little rubber rings all up on it and how it works by design. This pin my finger is pointing to, i simply drill that out and this piece slips off, yes?
http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff457/potatoesbarnaby/s13psrackpinionshaft.jpg

http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff457/potatoesbarnaby/s13psrackpinionshaftpin.jpg



Second, this rubber ring that fits up against the old piston pressure seal, junk it or slap it back in?

http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff457/potatoesbarnaby/s13psrackpistonsealouter.jpg


This is a worthy resurrection thread for the spool valve alone.

Edit: this is a tits easy mod. If you half ass it by just capping lines and not taking the rack apart and love it, more power to you. You are doing it wrong with a smile when it's not a whole lot of work to do so. My rack end where the cap is was dimple punched. If you tried to thread the cap off you would have destroyed all the threads. Check for that BEFORE you try to wrench it off. You should only have to break the seating torque and then off it goes easy by hand. If not, STOP! Take your time to drill the dimple out SLOWLY, remove all shavings and then thread the thing off.

[ixfxi]

i dont think the above is necessary, but im sure it cant hurt


on several of my cars, i simply drained the rack - swing the steering back and fourth emptying the fluid. i left the line provisions open and simply stuffed a bit of open cell foam in there as a small filter - or leave it open, the dirt cant really cause any harm

anyway, i dont think the above is necessary...

[onehundredoctane]

EDIT: If this info has already been covered I apologize, I don't have time to skim over 4 pages of people saying "don't do it" etc.


That being said. . .


Dave Coleman (if you don't know who that is stop reading now) de-powered the steering rack on FrankenMiata and detailed it in the link below. It's what I would consider the proper way to de-power a rack if you aren't drifting or have small woman like arms lol. If I ever get around to doing this on mine this is exactly how I'll do it. Granted the link below is on a Miata (yes, I realize that) it is very similar to the S chassis rack.


Project Miatabusa Part 5 - De-Powering the Steering (http://www.motoiq.com/magazine_articles/id/1709/project-miatabusa-part-5--de-powering-the-steering-rack.aspx)

[NoPistons!]

Edit, i was looking at project miatabusa yesterday as well. They spoke OF the spool valve, slipping it out and the actual part where the u joint splines are and pinion gear is are two pieces. They slip fit. They have play. It'll grenade your shit IF you have a miata doing the depowered says THEM. I dunno about the real world but motoiq is pretty awesome reading material on the reg. Our cars dont have that two piece gear/spline crap going on so there's no need to weld the shaft into one piece. Nobody who actually cares about getting things done has time to read any pages of negative unproductive banter.



I just happened to be bored and have a spare rack to play with. I didn't think removing the spool was necessary either. Taking shit apart and re-engineering it is stupid fun though. I wouldn't be playing with cars if i didn't. =D If anything that spool should come out so i can get my nerd on making a lightsaber handle. Lol.


Between you and me, (ixfxi) if my pump failed or something broke related to my ps when my car was running i would have just looped the lined and depowered later. Simplistic opportunist.

[ixfxi]

looping the line makes driving really tough. its either no fluid or bust, if you ask me

[bejota180sx]

im going to take the oportunity that someone revived this thread and ask something...

After i did this mod i can say that this mod makes driving the car much easier, but i want to ask a question. Because of simple physics moving the wheels while on a dead spot, like at tight parking lots, has anyone tried to play around with suspension settings like more/less camber, caster, toe and such or anything else and see how this changes? would like to know if anyone has tried anything...

[comablack783]

After i did this mod i can say that this mod makes driving the car much easier,

easier than? I dont see how no power steering or depowering the rack would make anything easier.. easier then not having PS at all?

after I did my sr swap I had to wait for lines and a pump, kinda got used to no PS... drove it like that for the better part of two years, then eventually put it back in and yeah 2,000,000x better..

on that note I would be interested in buying a true manual rack, since mine is busted and leaking...BUT the group buy is dead :dead:.. I read somewhere you can retrofit manual datsun Z racks? I cant find specific info on this tho, anyone???

[bejota180sx]

easier/better than driving with just the lines disconnected... it's not as smooth as power steering but way smoother than just the lines disconnected...

[Bigsyke]

Just dropping back in a few years later - still depowered. The S14 has been retired to a DD/winter drift car and I've since wen't to a Z32TT.

The Z32TT's engine bay sucks, so I've removed everything to make it easier to work on and for better airflow. I was an idiot and removed the HICAS and devaned the TT pump. The pump the leaked flud when I put it back. So I yanked the PS. Right now rack is open and steering is horrible. I feel like I'm going to snap the linkage. Turning the wheels from a standstill is nearly impossible. I've backed out the preload adjustment bolt.

I snapped all 3 torx bolts holding the speed regulator on the rack, so Im forced to depower it now. I'll post back impressions after my first track event. Maybe I'll take a few pics of the depowering progress.

[Matej]

If anyone is having problems finding a way to plug the ports without welding them shut (they are M12x1.0, M14x1.0, and M16x1.0, if I recall correctly, and finding bolts in those sizes proved to be impossibly hard), I found out that '89-95 Miata racks use the same ports, and there are plug kits made for them.
MiataRoadster power steering rack depowering plug kits - MiataRoadster - High-performance customer service...and parts for Roadsters (http://miataroadster.com/miataroadster/miataroadster_power_steering_rack_depowering_plug_ kits/g-63109.aspx)

I however ended up going back to power steering, to be able to run negative camber and modded knuckles.

[rawgarage]

I plan on doing this for my 90 coupe...just pulled the single slammer last night...

[Hoffman5982]

^That really wasn't worth reviving this thread over.

But here we are, so I will give my impressions on having a depowered rack:

I love it. I've had it in for about 2 months now after my 3rd rack started leaking like crazy. Throwing the car is harder, obviously, but the amount of feedback you get is incredible. I can also transfer as hard as I want not worry about countersteering fast enough. A manual rack forces you to become smoother while drifting. Parking lots really aren't bad. if you're standing still, turning sucks. But if you're moving slowly its super easy to pull in and out of spaces. On my garage floor I can turn it with one hand while standing still, but not quite as easily on concrete that isn't so stiff.

If you're going for a low power drift car, this is definitely a great option. One thing I should note is that the faster you're going while drifting, the harder it is. So if you're running more power and going for higher speed entries, keep your power steering.

[ixfxi]

I've been preaching about this for how long? Near a decade, easily.

Besides not having any of the power steering clutter nonsense is when you drive over water, you will immediately feel the disconnect of traction with the front tires through the steering wheel. It gives you a huge advantage over cars with numb power steering.

I have a HICAS rack that I de-powered. I am curious how that is going to feel. The closer ratio might make it a bit too much, but I'm willing to give it a shot. I know my front tires arent going to help either (275mm R888)

[Hoffman5982]

Buddy of mine had a depowered hicas rack on his s14 and loved it. If I could have found one before depowering mine I would have gone that route for sure

[Matej]

There is a Dodge Omni universal manual steering rack going in my car.
Looks same as this, except mine will be mounted properly, unlike this person's who has a deathwish.
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d7/1badz32/P1010141.jpg

[JZ78]

You have any more info on the Dodge Omni rack...like what kind of modification needed to fit in an s13, is it just Bolt on? Anymore info would be greatly appreciated kind sir.

sent from my mind

[zdfhh]

So, compared to the way you had it before with the looped lines, how does it feel?
http://ehealthca.com/ipad/images/22.gif http://ehealthca.com/ipad/images/37.gif

[TheRealSy90]

Does the dodge omni rack use the same tie rods?

[rawgarage]

^That really wasn't worth reviving this thread over.

But here we are, so I will give my impressions on having a depowered rack:

I love it. I've had it in for about 2 months now after my 3rd rack started leaking like crazy. Throwing the car is harder, obviously, but the amount of feedback you get is incredible. I can also transfer as hard as I want not worry about countersteering fast enough. A manual rack forces you to become smoother while drifting. Parking lots really aren't bad. if you're standing still, turning sucks. But if you're moving slowly its super easy to pull in and out of spaces. On my garage floor I can turn it with one hand while standing still, but not quite as easily on concrete that isn't so stiff.

If you're going for a low power drift car, this is definitely a great option. One thing I should note is that the faster you're going while drifting, the harder it is. So if you're running more power and going for higher speed entries, keep your power steering.


But it was... Im not the only person interested in this...


I was also told I Need to run a breather off the rack itself, do you have one or did you weld or crimp everything shut...

[Matej]

Does the dodge omni rack use the same tie rods?
No, but there are plenty of tie rods with the Omni threads on one end and S13/S14 on the other. The Moog website has a convenient list will all the thread pitches and lengths listed. The U-joint can also be ordered with the 240SX tooth-pattern on one side and the Omni patter on the other.


You have any more info on the Dodge Omni rack...like what kind of modification needed to fit in an s13, is it just Bolt on?
In the picture above the rack has the mounting brackets cut off, but they come new with mounting points on one end. I am just going to bolt it down through the stock holes on the crossmember (doubt they will match up exactly, so one of the holes on either the rack or the crossmember will probably need to be elongated or redrilled). On the other end I will use the clamp made for it and do the same thing with the holes.
http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/large/fla-fr1507-2_w.jpg
http://www.flamingriver.com/sysimg/tn250_omni-rack-mount-clamp-with-bushing-fr1507c.jpg

It is the most basic and generic rear-steer manual rack I found. The nice thing is that the dimensions and angle of the shaft are similar to an S-chassis rack, and it even has a nearly identical travel distance.

[TheRealSy90]

More or less travel?

[ixfxi]

Matej

can you please keep us posted with your progress? This is really awesome.

Do you mind sharing some info/specs as for OE S-chassis vs Omni racks? Turns to lock, thread pitch/diameter, etc. I think a lot of people will find this information useful.

[Hoffman5982]

But it was... Im not the only person interested in this...


I was also told I Need to run a breather off the rack itself, do you have one or did you weld or crimp everything shut...

I had grease fittings welded into the two ports on the rack and the two bigger ports sealed off. You fill it with grease and cut the piston that holds the seal specifically so you're not having to push hair, so having a breather isn't necessary. I was told to just seal them so debris wouldn't make its way inside.

Now that the Omni rack has come up, I am curious as to whether there is a difference between a properly depowered rack and a rack originally made to be manual as far as ease goes?

[Corbic]

Now that the Omni rack has come up, I am curious as to whether there is a difference between a properly depowered rack and a rack originally made to be manual as far as ease goes?


Rack Ratio will be another big factor.

[Corbic]

Matej,

You going to use the Flaming River stuff (~$300) or "Autozone" one (~$140)?

[ixfxi]

Rack Ratio will be another big factor.

Thats always been my understanding, that the ratio is not as close with the actual manual racks. My guess is that the Omni requires more turns to lock.


You guys were talking earlier about how you capped or vented the rack. Maybe I took the cheap way out, but I just stuffed some foam in the ports and called it a day. The foam keeps debri and shit out. I dunno, seemed sufficient for me.

[Corbic]

Thats always been my understanding, that the ratio is not as close with the actual manual racks. My guess is that the Omni requires more turns to lock.


Basically yes. The more turns they lighter they are. I'll check the 911 tomorrow for a turn count.

It's the epitome of a perfect manual rack.

Another factor impacting turning weight is the actual alignment.

[ixfxi]

Another factor impacting turning weight is the actual alignment.

If I am correct, caster is the most important when it comes to steering weight. Not exactly easily adjustable though.

[Matej]

Do you mind sharing some info/specs as for OE S-chassis vs Omni racks? Turns to lock, thread pitch/diameter, etc. I think a lot of people will find this information useful.
240SX rack
137mm of travel with stock inner tie rods, +15mm or so extra travel attainable with spacers
3.5 or 3.7 turns lock-to-lock with stock inner tie rods (please correct), less for a Hicas rack
11/16" 36-tooth spline
M14x1.5 (please correct if wrong) female inner tie rod thread pitch

Omni rack
127mm of travel
4 turns lock-to-lock
9/16" 26-tooth spline
9/16"-18 male inner tie rod thread pitch
More technical info: http://www.flamingriver.com/download.php/service/tips/pdf/OmniManualRackSpecs

The Omni rack will not match the stock rack for competitive driving/drifting, I am mainly only doing this because I like the simplicity of manual steering and this was the best option I found so far. However, I will be using the GKTech knuckle adapters or possibly some mild modded/aftermarket knuckles, which should make up for the shorter travel and the longer ratio.

Here is a good list of inner tie rods:
http://www.moog-suspension-parts.com/Universal_Inner_Tie_Rods.asp
A conversion U-joint and/or a shaft spline conversion/extension can be bought from places such as this:
http://www.borgeson.com/xcart/catalog/Universal_Joints-orderby_0-p-1-c-2.html


Matej,

You going to use the Flaming River stuff (~$300) or "Autozone" one (~$140)?
This one:
http://www.helixsuspension.com/catalog/Steering/Manual-Steering-Racks/HEXSR5/Omni-Manual-Steering-Rack---Rear-Steering-

Though I ordered it through some random vendor months ago and they keep pushing back the shipping date, so I will probably order one from elsewhere.
I did have a random junkyard one, but it was old and I only used it for mock-up.

Also, there are two models available, one with a long pinion, and one with a short pinion.
http://www.helixsuspension.com/assets/product-images/1601/600.jpg
http://www.flamingriver.com/sysimg/417-omni-manual-rear-steer-rackpinion-fr1507-3.jpg

[ixfxi]

Matej, a quick search online shows the following:

Steering Rack Ratio
HICAS - 14.9:1
Standard - 17.0:1

Turns to Lock:
HICAS - 2.6
Standard - 3.1

hehe, man... my car is going to FUCK me up. But maybe not. I quickly searched the Miata rack specs and it appears the actual manual rack is 3.3 Turns to Lock, and the Powered is 2.8 Turns to Lock. On paper, the manual HICAS rack should be nice.. but as we all know, real world is totally different than paper. I'll report back if and when I ever finish assembling this piece of shit car.

[Hoffman5982]

Just be prepared for pain if you dip off the road or anything. First time I slid with the manual rack I made a mistake and tried to catch the wheel. My wrist still gives me problems if I try to put all of my weight on it in a weird way. I'm just waiting for the broken thumbs my friends who ran manual racks had from time to time. There's no forgiveness.

[ixfxi]

then you didnt properly empty the rack

when the rack is empty, you can turn the wheel very easily except when you are 100% dead still. if you're parking and even moving very very slowly, the wheel turns easy

i have had my setup on multiple cars for over 10 years, no issues... autox events, etc.

[Hoffman5982]

I mean when you lose control. As I said before the only time it's hard to turn I when standing completely still, but even then it's manageable. At slow speeds you can barely tell it's manual. But when you screw up while drifting and go off the road or something, it can be brutal. I haven't had any problems since that first night now that I'm aware of it

[JayJay240sx]

I was reading up on the miata forums and they talk about play in the steering unless you weld the pinion, is this also an issue in the s13's? I have a 92 240:2f2f:

[Tulok]

I was reading up on the miata forums and they talk about play in the steering unless you weld the pinion, is this also an issue in the s13's? I have a 92 240:2f2f:

nobody in the ENTIRE thread ever spoke of welding, EVER.