So what did you think of the debate?

[Mi Beardo es Loco]

I honestly thought that if you were a Obama supporter, he hit on all cylinders. He hit on McCains questionable judgment and questionable stint in congress. He was not the "Bambi" that was being painted on him.
If you were a McCain supporter you were happy with his performance. He hit on his history and told a TON of stories of his history. He stressed that Obama was "not ready to lead."

I honestly think that people on the undecided fence would relate more with the Obama side. Less than 20% of Americans still agree in this war. This is down from 78% in 2002. Obama stressed McCain's alliance with Bush, who's approval rating is also the lowest of any president ever. McCain did a decent job but it sounded like his stories went on and on and on and on.

Interested in what you all think.

[Gnnr]

Had to work so I missed it. I'm looking for the video online but cant find it. grrr...

[SlideWell]

im interested to MEET someone who will admit to voting for bush. :rant2:

[imotion s14]

They both support the bail out of the banks.. they both support the Feds.. they both support israel... Obama thinks it's OK to launch raids into Pakistan if the intelligence is there.

What's the difference again? Oh right.. queer marriage and bible thumping.

Oh, the debates.. boring as hell.

[SlideWell]

They both support the bail out of the banks.. they both support the Feds.. they both support israel... Obama thinks it's OK to launch raids into Pakistan if the intelligence is there.

What's the difference again? Oh right.. queer marriage and bible thumping.

Oh, the debates.. boring as hell.

haha so true. both want a lot of government. the ones that dont never make it to the the top. hopefully that will change once all these dumb ass baby boomers die off and shit.

[RacerfreakXXX]

im interested to MEET someone who will admit to voting for bush. :rant2:

ROFL

I think both parties had their good and bad side. Obama is inexperienced when it comes to the world, but has great intentions. I think McCain is a little too set in his way but has the experience to run the country. If Obama hadn't made the remark about going into Pakistan to go after the Taliban I think he would have been better off. McCain just wants to get the war over with where Obama seems to have this notion of actually going towards what the war was originally intended to do.

Overall I think this debate should have been about how they will deal with the fact that the US government is going to take over this debt that it can't afford to take over. I guess the US government is just like all the companies that take on all this debt till they turn bell side up.

Hopefully our nation will hang in there and this shit will get worked out.

[LongGrain]

i felt like every single one of mccains responses could have been summed up as "senator obama just doesnt understand because he is not as old as me, i was THERE when the dinosaurs went extinct"

he said that over and over again in a different order each time..

[Mi Beardo es Loco]

^^^I think that works well for 40+ but not very well with the younger.

I think McCain swung and missed when he stated that a he spoke to a mother of a soldier who died in Iraq and she didn't want him to die in vein. That indicated that a soldier is fighting for the glory and not following orders that were based on a fiction from a corrupt president. I thought Obama should have jumped on him for that but was a little soft on some subjects. Obama did wonderful on McCain's strengths though and that's why I think he won the debate.

[RJF]

I think McCain swung and missed when he stated that a he spoke to a mother of a soldier who died in Iraq and she didn't want him to die in vein. That indicated that a soldier is fighting for the glory and not following orders that were based on a fiction from a corrupt president. I thought Obama should have jumped on him for that but was a little soft on some subjects. Obama did wonderful on McCain's strengths though and that's why I think he won the debate.

Huh?

Won't even address your "corrupt president" remark, but Obama was on the defensive all night. He even did the old "Me too, teacher, me too" bit. "I have a bracelet too", although he didn't even know the soldier's name, he had to look down and read the name.

And what was with him constantly interrupting McCain when he was talking? The points McCain was making must have been accurate since BHO got very defensive. That's poor debate etiquette to interupt.

Bottom line is BHO is nothing but a "used car salesman" with zero experience, who talks a good game but has never done significant anything in his life.

[SlideWell]

Huh?

Won't even address your "corrupt president" remark, but Obama was on the defensive all night. He even did the old "Me too, teacher, me too" bit. "I have a bracelet too", although he didn't even know the soldier's name, he had to look down and read the name.

And what was with him constantly interrupting McCain when he was talking? The points McCain was making must have been accurate since BHO got very defensive. That's poor debate etiquette to interupt.

Bottom line is BHO is nothing but a "used car salesman" with zero experience, who talks a good game but has never done significant anything in his life.

accurate? ones argument does not have to be accurate for someone to want to interrupt them, more so, when they are very wrong they cant hold back from doing so. i see a maturity difference. i think its just sad both of these fools made it to the top.

[fromxtor]

im interested to MEET someone who will admit to voting for bush. :rant2:

I voted for Bush both times.

[SlideWell]

I voted for Bush both times.

i hope i meet you when i move back to the east coast :axe:

[fromxtor]

i hope i meet you when i move back to the east coast :axe:

I'll be waiting :D

[SlideWell]

I'll be waiting :D

28 and pickin a fight? get a life. at 28, you should know to just not say anything and admit that you voted for a poor candidate with a lot of money. i was joking and maybe you are too. im moving back when my mother passes away soon for political freedom and to be unruled on probation within this state in order of non extraditable offenses committed by me. i bet you rock a southern flag in your room or garage too.
so...as the english say (ive lived there too), fekkk off.

[ALTRNTV]

im interested to MEET someone who will admit to voting for bush. :rant2:
I voted for Bush also, BOTH times.

[drift freaq]

28 and pickin a fight? get a life. at 28, you should know to just not say anything and admit that you voted for a poor candidate with a lot of money. i was joking and maybe you are too. im moving back when my mother passes away soon for political freedom and to be unruled on probation within this state in order of non extraditable offenses committed by me. i bet you rock a southern flag in your room or garage too.
so...as the english say (ive lived there too), fekkk off.

Wow you seem to picking a fight here yourself. Your contradicting your own words within the same paragraph. Oh and nice to see you commit crimes and then run. You really sound like a stand up guy. Maybe you should get extradited?

Oh and before you get upset with me, I am just pointing out truths that you yourself admitted to! Which pretty much means you trapped yourself here. Brilliance!!!

[ALTRNTV]

Damn 07's. I want the Rep System back.

[jrbump]

I will preface my take on the debate that I plan to vote for Obama.

I think that MCcaine stumbled a bit at first but soon found his stride.

I think that Obama learned from his past mistakes and came out strong and kept it up, presidential even.

These are both great leaders and either would do well in office, this debate however has not changed my decision.

Both made very good points and did well.

[atom]

They both hit their talking points, nothing too exciting. Nobody was a clear winner IMO, which kinda benefits Obama since foreign policy and experience was supposed to be McCain's forte.

I personally didn't like McCain's "you just don't get it". Some times it worked like when he was talking about the surge, but more often than not it just came off as patronizing.

[SlideWell]

Wow you seem to picking a fight here yourself. Your contradicting your own words within the same paragraph. Oh and nice to see you commit crimes and then run. You really sound like a stand up guy. Maybe you should get extradited?

Oh and before you get upset with me, I am just pointing out truths that you yourself admitted to! Which pretty much means you trapped yourself here. Brilliance!!!

i made a joke and someone stuck their middle finger out.
i contradict myself when i drink, who doesnt.
i am a very stand up guy. i did my time asshole. and still, yet, more n more comes. you have no idea what you are talking about. i was born here, and if ever faced court for such matters any further, i can go to a place where they cant touch me, Iran. does that upset you? lol, gtfoh

[ALTRNTV]

You made a joke, and in turn, he made another joke.
If you can't take other jokes, don't make them in the first
place. Don't get so butt hurt, this is only the internet.

[SlideWell]

doesnt sound like a joke on his end. thats a no brainer.
edit: ive owned 3 s14's, first in 03. just havent been on this forum since then. thanks for thinking.

[cuddlesthesheep]

doesnt sound like a joke on his end. thats a no brainer.
edit: ive owned 3 s14's, first in 03. just havent been on this forum since then. thanks for thinking.

god shut the fvck up please! You sound like an absolute moron and your jacking this thread.


maybe you didnt notice his smiley face after his post?

I dont like you.

[SlideWell]

god shut the fvck up please! You sound like an absolute moron and your jacking this thread.


maybe you didnt notice his smiley face after his post?

I dont like you.

do i care what you like or dont?
:keke:

[soreballz]

^Sandy vag?

[SlideWell]

^Sandy vag?

lol, and that feels gud. where u been man, popped out of the blue after a while.

[soreballz]

^I've been around. I don't post much anymore (aside from the regional section). Been busy... Teh interwebz is low on my priority list at this point in my life. lol

On topic: Presidential debates bore the piss out of me, and this one was no different. And yet... I keep watching them, in hopes of hearing a candidate say something spectacular that isn't complete horseshit.
They always let me down.

[junn]

MCcain kept on tryin to change the subject with his lame ass boring stories....who cares!!...just answer the question and stop stalling!!!

[fromxtor]

28 and pickin a fight? get a life. at 28, you should know to just not say anything and admit that you voted for a poor candidate with a lot of money. i was joking and maybe you are too. im moving back when my mother passes away soon for political freedom and to be unruled on probation within this state in order of non extraditable offenses committed by me. i bet you rock a southern flag in your room or garage too.
so...as the english say (ive lived there too), fekkk off.

i made a joke and someone stuck their middle finger out.
i contradict myself when i drink, who doesnt.
i am a very stand up guy. i did my time asshole. and still, yet, more n more comes. you have no idea what you are talking about. i was born here, and if ever faced court for such matters any further, i can go to a place where they cant touch me, Iran. does that upset you? lol, gtfoh

doesnt sound like a joke on his end. thats a no brainer.
edit: ive owned 3 s14's, first in 03. just havent been on this forum since then. thanks for thinking.

do i care what you like or dont?
:keke:


It was a joke, thus the smileys. Sorry you got all upset for no reason. Btw I currently live on a military installation, so it would be impossible for you to "come visit me" whenever you felt like it. :keke: :bigok: :bow:

[murda-c]

This thread turned to suck real fast.

I suggest moderators delete a bunch of posts, including this one.

[40daws]

Chris Rock summed it up I think for some. "Its not about Republicans or Democrats. Its do you vote for the guy with 12 houses and $150 million in the bank or the guy with 1 house and one million. The guy with one house is worried about losing his only home. The guy with 12 could lose 5 and still sleep well."

[The ROMAN]

McCain lied about what Kissinger said! So this makes it number what?

I really only thought Obama's point about "talking to anybody" in regards to foreign relations was a solid point. I was late, so missed his 1-2-3 points about the economy but I heard that was pretty strong too. Everything else for both candidates seems to not really go anywhere. McCain's stories felt like he was just killing time to me and he seemed a bit wobbly with his voice as opposed to Obama's damn near statue clam.

[LeftNutOfGowd]

I voted for Arnold lol

[RJF]

McCain lied about what Kissinger said! So this makes it number what?


No, Obama lied.

Kissinger was contacted and said that was not what he said.

Kissinger Unhappy About Obama

Henry Kissinger believes Barack Obama misstated his views on diplomacy with US adversaries and is not happy about being mischaracterized. He says: "Senator McCain is right. I would not recommend the next President of the United States engage in talks with Iran at the Presidential level. My views on this issue are entirely compatible with the views of my friend Senator John McCain. We do not agree on everything, but we do agree that any negotiations with Iran must be geared to reality."

The Weekly Standard (http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2008/09/tws_exclusive_kissinger_unhapp.asp)

[Grendel]

I thought the whole story about some mother telling McCain the war needs to be finished so her kid didn't die in vain is garbage.

If I died when I was in Iraq you can be damn sure my parents wouldn't be saying that bullshit.

I think McCain interrupted Obama just as much as Obama interrupted McCain. McCain also needs to quit talking about his time as a POW, that has nothing to do with being president. All it means is he was a shitty pilot who crashed plane after plane, and kept getting new ones because his daddy was an Admiral. Then SURPRISE he crashes another one, only this time he got snatched up for it. Oh well.

[RJF]

Crashed?

Let's see what you or any pilot could do if your wing was shot off by a SAM.

[yudalicious]

I think Obama with a slight edge. I think Mccain's campaign, with all the distractions and hoopla about whether or not to come to the debate, did pretty well for itself. Now, what I'm REALLY looking forward to, is the VP debate, I want to see what kind of "insights" Palin's geographical location has afforded her on foreign issues ;]

[The ROMAN]

No, Obama lied.

Kissinger was contacted and said that was not what he said.

Kissinger Unhappy About Obama

Henry Kissinger believes Barack Obama misstated his views on diplomacy with US adversaries and is not happy about being mischaracterized. He says: "Senator McCain is right. I would not recommend the next President of the United States engage in talks with Iran at the Presidential level. My views on this issue are entirely compatible with the views of my friend Senator John McCain. We do not agree on everything, but we do agree that any negotiations with Iran must be geared to reality."

The Weekly Standard (http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2008/09/tws_exclusive_kissinger_unhapp.asp)
Ok then McCain and Kissinger are lying. Seriously: ABC News: Kissinger Backs Direct Talks 'Without Conditions' with Iran (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/09/kissinger-backs.html)

[RJF]

ABC ? Another reliable source.

A ll
B arrack
C hannel

[Matej]

Why do so many people say that McCain's foreign policy is good? I see all these news stories reporting that people prefer McCain in that aspect.
His foreign policy is terrible, he's just another one of those people who think that all foreign problems can be solved with threatening military might.
That's not having experience, that's just being a bigot.

[Matej]

No, Obama lied.

Kissinger was contacted and said that was not what he said.

Kissinger Unhappy About Obama

Henry Kissinger believes Barack Obama misstated his views on diplomacy with US adversaries and is not happy about being mischaracterized. He says: "Senator McCain is right. I would not recommend the next President of the United States engage in talks with Iran at the Presidential level. My views on this issue are entirely compatible with the views of my friend Senator John McCain. We do not agree on everything, but we do agree that any negotiations with Iran must be geared to reality."

The Weekly Standard (http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2008/09/tws_exclusive_kissinger_unhapp.asp)
That comes from a website reporting that McCain clearly won the debate. :rolleyes:

[The ROMAN]

ABC ? Another reliable source.

A ll
B arrack
C hannel

Are you serious? A quote is a quote. Whatever Kissinger is saying now, he said the opposite to an audience in Washington prior to the debate, as shown in that article.

And besides, your source is supposed to somehow be unbiased? From their wiki:
"The Weekly Standard is an American neoconservative opinion magazine published 48 times per year."
The Weekly Standard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Weekly_Standard)

Or if that's not good enough, from W. Kristol, the mags own founder:
"The Weekly Standard is a conservative magazine, of course. We make no bones about it. "
Right Web | Profile | Weekly Standard (http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/2891.html)

[imotion s14]

re-watching it.. it's like watching 2 used cars salesmen who owns lots across from one another.

[Xbroke_kidX]

i think McCain can talk for 5 minutes and not tell you anything.

[shade]

Eh, no surprise there. My family is a military family, practically every single one of my uncles and male cousins are in the military and right now I'm working on to be a commissioned officer myself for the Army. Senior non-commissioned officers in my family own around 3-4 at most houses, only NCOs! Compared to McCain who was a commissioned officer, I think that's a good ratio. He also inherited properties from his grandfather and father, both who were retired Admirals in the Navy. People actually make it sound like he didn't work for or deserve what he owns. Shame, shame. Prior service and a politician, what the hell do you guys expect him to own?

Chris Rock summed it up I think for some. "Its not about Republicans or Democrats. Its do you vote for the guy with 12 houses and $150 million in the bank or the guy with 1 house and one million. The guy with one house is worried about losing his only home. The guy with 12 could lose 5 and still sleep well."

You sure that you watched the debate?

Why do so many people say that McCain's foreign policy is good? I see all these news stories reporting that people prefer McCain in that aspect.
His foreign policy is terrible, he's just another one of those people who think that all foreign problems can be solved with threatening military might.
That's not having experience, that's just being a bigot.

[Matej]

Are you sure he really worked that hard for anything? To me it seems that he just rode out his father's coattails all his life.
From what I've read, it seems that he never really excelled at anything, he was always towards the end of the pack, and he was able to work his way up mainly thanks to his father's influence.
Actually, he's only alive thanks to his father, as McCain was in a critical condition when he was a pow, and the North Vietnamese refused to give him medical treatment until they found out that his father was a top ranking admiral. Sadly, all other pow's in his condition were left to die.

[Mi Beardo es Loco]

No, Obama lied.

Kissinger was contacted and said that was not what he said.

Kissinger Unhappy About Obama

Henry Kissinger believes Barack Obama misstated his views on diplomacy with US adversaries and is not happy about being mischaracterized. He says: "Senator McCain is right. I would not recommend the next President of the United States engage in talks with Iran at the Presidential level. My views on this issue are entirely compatible with the views of my friend Senator John McCain. We do not agree on everything, but we do agree that any negotiations with Iran must be geared to reality."

The Weekly Standard (http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2008/09/tws_exclusive_kissinger_unhapp.asp)
actually, McCain lied. Kissinger was RECORDED saying this on CNNRadio and was replayed all night. Heard it live and heard it last night. When McCain tried to call Obama a liar I was nearly screaming at the tv that McCain didn't even know what his own adviser said. McCain tried to then flip it to "well he never said president." In fact the interview was quite clear that Kissinger stated the president.

[Mi Beardo es Loco]

ABC ? Another reliable source.

A ll
B arrack
C hannel
yes, and FoxNews is a all McCain all the time channel. If you want real news turn to BBCAmerica.

[Matej]

Haha after seeing this I can't wait to see Palin debate.

YouTube - Jack Cafferty Tells Us How He Really Feels About Sarah Palin (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8__aXxXPVc)

[RJF]

Wow, one network that might and I repeat might have a bias instead of every other news organization in the country being pro-Obama. Wonder what the ratio of viewers are for that?

Washington Times - Poll: News media biased for Obama (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/jul/22/poll-news-media-biased-for-Obama/)

Rasmussen Reports™: The most comprehensive public opinion coverage ever provided for a presidential election. (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/belief_growing_that_reporters_are_trying_to_help_o bama_win)

Rasmussen Reports™: The most comprehensive public opinion coverage ever provided for a presidential election. (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/24_have_favorable_opinion_of_new_york_times)

No, media bias, huh?

http://www.newsmax.com/insidecover/tv_russert_obama/2008/09/24/134120.html



Ok, another news organization reports what Kissinger said.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/27/kissinger.iran/

Yes, we should negotiate with Iran but not at the presidential level.

[Mi Beardo es Loco]

Wow, one network that might and I repeat might have a bias instead of every other news organization in the country being pro-Obama. Wonder what the ratio of viewers are for that?

Washington Times - Poll: News media biased for Obama (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/jul/22/poll-news-media-biased-for-Obama/)

Rasmussen Reports™: The most comprehensive public opinion coverage ever provided for a presidential election. (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/belief_growing_that_reporters_are_trying_to_help_o bama_win)

Rasmussen Reports™: The most comprehensive public opinion coverage ever provided for a presidential election. (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/24_have_favorable_opinion_of_new_york_times)

No, media bias, huh?

Newsmax.com – NBC's Luke Russert Tips Hand For Obama (http://www.newsmax.com/insidecover/tv_russert_obama/2008/09/24/134120.html)



Ok, another news organization reports what Kissinger said.

Kissinger defends McCain on structuring Iranian talks - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/27/kissinger.iran/)

Yes, we should negotiate with Iran but not at the presidential level.
I do agree with the fact that the media is all over Obamas jock. I do think that he reminds a lot of people of JFK though. Theres a good reason why so many people like him, its because hes so likable. But that doesnt excuse the mass amount of press towards Obama and not McCain.
This is why I watch and listen to BBCAmerica and I think that is the exact reason why I believe Polin was chosen over Lebberman, to attract attention to the Republican campaign.
McCain isnt the biggest fear for me, its Polin. Realistically, shes a dumbass who doesnt deserve to be where shes at. Just look at the crap she says, its freaking crazy. She took 7 years and 3 colleges to graduate with a JOURNALISM degree.
With McCain I agree with a lot of things, in fact he might be likable in a time of peace. I just disagree with his foreign policies. Its Polin that Im scared of.

[Phlip]

YouTube - John McCain Says HORSESH*T During the 9/26 Debate (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1rZBmk0DYU)

[The ROMAN]

Ok then the hell with news sites then, lets go to the videotape.
Yes, we should negotiate with Iran but not at the presidential level.

Yes, not at the Presidential level......but without preconditions. That was the point that is debated as to whether McCain lied or not, not at what level. At around 7:45 you can see what Kissinger said in this video.

YouTube - Palin CBS interview (Couric) 2 + Kissinger and talking to Iran without preconditions (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj7nBrdm4LE)

Heres are shorter one with the different speechs of McCain and Palin:
YouTube - Palin and McCain On Kissinger/Iran (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0L2ExNnQefE)

And here you go, Kissinger agrees with the secretary of state, who states "without preconditions"
YouTube - 9/26 Debate: McCain's "PRECONDITIONS" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqdP6WXkkY0)

Hey, maybe McCain didn't actually mean to lie to the American people, he's just old is all. My grandfather forgets stuff all the time; it's not his fault.

[Mi Beardo es Loco]

Ok then the hell with news sites then, lets go to the videotape.


Yes, not at the Presidential level......but without preconditions. That was the point that is debated as to whether McCain lied or not, not at what level. At around 7:45 you can see what Kissinger said in this video.

YouTube - Palin CBS interview (Couric) 2 + Kissinger and talking to Iran without preconditions (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj7nBrdm4LE)

Heres are shorter one with the different speechs of McCain and Palin:
YouTube - Palin and McCain On Kissinger/Iran (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0L2ExNnQefE)

And here you go, Kissinger agrees with the secretary of state, who states "without preconditions"
YouTube - 9/26 Debate: McCain's "PRECONDITIONS" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqdP6WXkkY0)

Hey, maybe McCain didn't actually mean to lie to the American people, he's just old is all. My grandfather forgets stuff all the time; it's not his fault.
McCain and the Republican party is playing damage control. Even though Kissinger stated that he is in favor with sitting and speaking with world leaders without preconditions at a very high level, then stated at the Secretary of State level right out of the box INITIALLY, that TOTALLY doesnt mean at the Presidential level. McCain was wrong to assume to know what "his friend" meant and it was pretty clear that Kissinger and Obama are closer than McCain is on this subject. Even if the Secretary of State met with Mohmoud Ahmadinejad this will STILL give Iran validity for their cause, totally dismissing what McCain said.

[adictd2b00st]

I think McCain swung and missed when he stated that a he spoke to a mother of a soldier who died in Iraq and she didn't want him to die in vein. That indicated that a soldier is fighting for the glory and not following orders that were based on a fiction from a corrupt president.

AMEN TO THAT

its called pride, everyone has pride in what they do and dont want to "fail"......but there also comes a time when you need to swallow that pride and move on. this is one of those times

[Mi Beardo es Loco]

AMEN TO THAT

its called pride, everyone has pride in what they do and dont want to "fail"......but there also comes a time when you need to swallow that pride and move on. this is one of those times
exactly. Just the concept of "winning" in an occupation still escapes me.

[S14DB]

I think they were both Master debaters.

[RJF]

Last night Obama mentioned McCain's plan for a health insurance tax credit and how it would be taxable. Today Biden was running with it.

Four Pinocchios for Biden's Tax Fabrication - Fact Checker (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/2008/09/four_pinocchios_for_bidens_tax.html)

Democratic vice presidential hopeful Joe Biden claims that middle class Americans will be slapped with the "largest tax increase in American history" as a result of the McCain health care plan. It is true that McCain has proposed taxing the health-care benefits that Americans receive through their employers. However, Biden conveniently overlooks the fact that the Republican nominee is offering tax-payers a credit that should cover the cost of going out and buying insurance.

The Facts

John McCain wants to drastically overhaul the health insurance system in order to encourage Americans to go out and buy their own health care plans rather than relying on employer-based plans. To achieve this, he plans to tax employer-provided health benefits and provide a $2,500 tax credit ($5,000 for families) toward the cost of health insurance.

By most independent calculations, the McCain plan will leave most taxpayers better off in strictly financial terms, at least until 2013. After 2013, the benefits will begin to diminish. By 2018, taxpayers in the top quintile will be slightly worse off, but middle-income taxpayers will either break even or be slightly ahead. According to the non-partisan Tax Policy Center, the McCain proposals will result in a net benefit of $1,241 to the average tax payer in 2009, $895 in 2013, and $386 in 2018.

"It is not fair to pull out just one part of the McCain proposal," said Eric Toder, a TPC analyst. "It is a package. They are giving back more than they are taking away."

Jason Furman, director of economic policy for the Obama campaign, pointed out that the McCain campaign skips over the tax increase side of the health plan on its website and focuses instead on the tax credit. He also notes that, according to the McCain website, the credit will be paid directly to insurance companies to cover the cost of health insurance rather than to individuals.

This is true, but it is still a tax credit, in whatever manner it is paid. If you are able to buy insurance for less than the cost of the credit, you will be able to deposit the balance in a health savings account, according to the McCain plan.

So how did Biden arrive at the $1 trillion price tag for "middle class" tax payers? Probably from the Office of the Management and Budget which estimates the cost of excluding employer-provided health benefits from tax revenues at $1.05 trillion between 2009 and 2013. Note that this is all taxpayers, not just the "middle class."

It is worth noting that there has been a lot of loose talk about taxes on the campaign trail. The McCain campaign has accused Biden of supporting the "largest tax increase in American history" by voting for a non-binding budget resolution that would phase out the Bush tax cuts of 2001 and 2003. This is nonsense, on several levels. First, the Bush tax cuts are due to be phased out anyway under current law. Second, Obama and Biden favor an extension of the Bush tax cuts for middle and low-income Americans. Third, by any reasonable measure, any tax increases endorsed by Obama or Biden are trivial compared to the huge tax hikes of World War II.

The Tax Policy Center estimates that the repeal of the Bush tax cuts would result in a reduction of after-tax incomes of 4.2 percent, and 2.67 percent for taxpayers in the middle-income quintile. During World War II, by contrast, federal tax revenues ballooned from $8.7 billion to $45.2 billion. Federal taxes as a share of GDP grew from 7.6 percent in 1941 to 20.4 percent in 1945.

The Pinocchio Test

Both campaigns have stretched the truth to the breaking point in describing each other's tax plans. In this particular case, Joe Biden has looked at only the negative side of the balance sheet--and ignored the positive. It is simply not true that the McCain health plan represents the largest "tax increase" in American history.

[40daws]

McBusch looked like a sullen child told to stand in a corner. He could not look at the camera,could not look at Obama and those dried up ass jokes bombed. Bringing up old ass dead white guys means nothing to the voting block that will decide this election. Holding sand in your hand in Pakistan and walking through a secured zone means nothing.

[40daws]

FROM CNN’s Jack Cafferty:

There is a reason the McCain campaign keeps Governor Sarah Palin away from the press.

This is a direct excerpt from Katie Couric’s One-On-One interview with Sarah Palin, which aired Wednesday on CBS.

COURIC: Why isn’t it better, Governor Palin, to spend $700 billion helping middle-class families struggling with health care, housing, gas and groceries? … Instead of helping these big financial institutions that played a role in creating this mess?

PALIN: Ultimately, what the bailout does is help those who are concerned about the health care reform that is needed to help shore up the economy– Oh, it’s got to be about job creation too. So health care reform and reducing taxes and reining in spending has got to accompany tax reductions.

If McCain wins, this woman will be a 72-year- old heartbeat away from being president of the United States.

This shows Mcbusch's wise decisions.

[Phlip]

Obama did NOT say that there would be a tax on McCain's (stupid fucking) healthcare credit... What he said was that, in addition to that (stupid fucking) credit, which is to take the place of conventional healthcare benefits provided by employers, employers would be taxed on what coverage they DO provide, thusly costing them out of being able to afford to cover their employees and, in such, corralling those employees into fending for themselves out on the market to insure themselves.

Look, I NEVER get sick and rarely injured... The ONE time I have been in my whole adult life saved me over $57,000 (yes, that is 57 THOUSAND dollars), and it was my own fucking fault... I will take the healthcare system as it is before I let McFailin' fuck me back into the poorhouse... Reagan did it once with my parents, I don't want to see the shit again.

[Matej]

McBusch looked like a sullen child told to stand in a corner. He could not look at the camera,could not look at Obama and those dried up ass jokes bombed.
You're right, McCain wouldn't even look at Obama, other than during a change of topic when no one was speaking. He would criticize what Obama thinks or said, he should've at least looked him in the eyes when speaking badly of him.
Perhaps it was the "I'm older and better than you" attitude which he indirectly hinted at a few times, or perhaps he just did not have the guts.
Is he going to look world leaders in the eye when debating pressing issues, or is he going to keep looking down?
McCain kept constantly loosing composure, he needs to work on his temper.
Not once, but twice he had to resort to reminding everyone that he was a pow.
He kept talking about his "record" and what "the record shows."
Well, the record shows that he voted with Bush 90% of time, which is not being a maverick. Of course he didn't forget to call himself one a few times.
And what was up with the stories? They were there to discuss issues, it wasn't supposed to be storytelling time. McCain could've probably gone on for five minutes without actually saying anything relevant.

I just wish Obama dug into him more.

[Phlip]

Fun fact:
This morning, Barack Obama was at a rally only about 7 blocks from where MLK would have been had he not changed plans the day before he got shot.
Funner fact:
I once sold crack 25 yards from where MLK would have been in the face of that same fact.
Not-so-fun fact:
that spot is less than 3 miles from my current crib.

Mundane fact:
I slept in and did not leave my house until 2+ hours AFTER I knew the rally was over, even though I know I am not voting for the McFailin' administration.

[90hatchie]

the best unbiased channel is cspan
try watching that for 5 min without putting a bullet into ur head

[98s14inaz]

This whole election is one giant shell game. Obama is really good at shifting the shells around. McCain is not as good at this game but they are both playing it with our future.