Why are 240's so bad in the snow?

[Natty]

It seems that the first thing a potential 240sx buyer asks is "I hear it's bad in the snow, is it?"

Now, I know they aren't too good in the snow and most of that is attributed to it being RWD. But doesn't it seem that people are a bit overly concerned about it when it comes to the 240sx?

What I mean is, we get this alot, but it doesn't seem to be a huge concern to other RWD drivers.

Either a) the 240sx is unusally bad in the snow or b) we just get a bad rap, for some reason.

I think it's B, but I have no idea why. Anyoen wanna take a stab at it?
Jeff

[whateverjames]

Once my 240SX gets going, I pass 4WD SUV's in the snow, and around turns (mostly due to them being unsure of their vehicle). It's just taking off up hill that can be bad. Or this incident that made me late last week; I parked my car on the street and my right tire was on ice and the left tire wasn't. I couldn't move :( I had to take my Blazer which is also 2WD but it has a limited slip differential. It took me a few seconds to get moving and I was off. If my 240SX had the LSD and good snow tires, it wouldn't be worse than any other car on the road. :)

[KiDyNomiTe]

The whole snow thing has always been a concern for me since I live in chicago. Although everyone that I have talked to about the snow, saus that a good set of snow tires will make it easy to drive, and also fun to play with. Also LSD helps a lot. So most peoples advice are to get some good snow tires, not all-season, but snow tires, and a stock 240 LSD will help too.

[mrdirty]

I live in Canada, drive my 240 all year w/out snow tires...no problems.

[Bbandit]

i almost got in a couple of accidents last december when i went roadtrip to colorado/wyoming..
it involves loosing control when i hit icy roads...
my car also got stuck on some snowy mountain roads up north in wyoming (near yellowstone)
and i got some help from some locals... they pulled my car up to the peak of the mountain... and from there on.. it was downhill...
and to tell you the truth.. i was having a very bad time controlling the car downhill since i dont have abs nor lsd...
and what makes it even worse is that i used my kumho street tires...
i learned my lessons though... a semi racing tires will bring bad luck on snowy days...

[MorganS13]

i've been through 4 winters and a couple snowstorms with little problems... never been stuck (knock on wood). as long as u make sure not to get in situations where you'll get stuck u'll be alright. i feel i have a lot more control driving my 240 than other FWD cars in the snow, but definitely not comparable to my AWD Explorer :)

[Apparition]

As long as you respect the road conditions, you'll have no problem. Snow tires make a big difference, and mainly common sense will prevent accidents.

[Yoshi]

I think it's the idea that all rwd cars suck in the snow, which I think is crap. People that say that either A) have never driven RWD in the snow, or at least not long enough to learn wtf they're doing. or B) don't live in a climate where they deal with snow much anyway, so all they know is here-say(sp?) and spread the ignorance.

it wasn't all that long ago that the majority of cars were RWD (or at least a MUCH higher ratio than now). I think people just forget, kinda bad if u think about it, but i"m getting off on a tangent.

My car arrives at the end of next week, complete with SR and VLSD, I'll tell u all how it goes :)
(yeah, I live in a snowy climate, eastern washington)

[DSC]

We get snow about 2 times a year here...I've driven in snow and it's really not a big deal. Only time I got stuck is when I stopped turning into the driveway. But driving around the roads wasn't a big problem.

[240 2NR]

TIRES!!!! (and a close second is suspension and weight dist)

Volvos were rwd till just a few years ago, but do you think they came with aggresive performace tires? You want to bet 240's do?

That's a big part of the reason SPORTS CARS tend to be so bad in snow. I've run summer biased all season tires, straight summer tires, and snow tires in the winter and there is no comparison.

Snow tires kick ass in snow. They're not that great on dry pavement but they are unbelieveable in snow. At the same time, for how great performance tires are on dry pavement and even wet, they are horrible in cold and snow.

A close second for me is that sports cars come with more aggressive suspension setups designed for quick turn in and good cornering. Camber, stiff shocks, etc all conspire to limit availabe traction in low grip conditions. I think these are far behind the benefits of proper tires, but I still think they effect handling.

Also given the 50/50 weight dist. 240's have less mass over the drive wheels than a 60/40 fwd'er. On a side note, this makes for scary handling under heavy braking in the snow. where my 240 is dead straigh, my gf's altima is very tail happy.

[Drifted off road]

if u ever get stuck going up a smaller hill if u slightly pull up ur e-brake while on the gas u will not slip as much.

[Natty]

Originally posted by Drifted off road
if u ever get stuck going up a smaller hill if u slightly pull up ur e-brake while on the gas u will not slip as much.
One time I was stopped up a slight hill. I tried to give it very light gas in first, but it spun for a second, then rolled back towards the car behind me! I gassed it up to 3k real quick, put it into second, and I somehow got traction.
I'll try the brake next time, but it would be useless if you have no traction.
Jeff

[tnord]

it might work because some of the torque that would eventually get transfered to the ground is now used to overcome the force of the e-brake.

[misnomer]

OK, rear wheel drive, torquey engine, low ground clearance yeilds a car that is less capable in the snow. Driver skill here has a great deal to do with it. This is my fourth winter (third in a 240sx), and I just gotta say you should learn what you can and cannot do in the snow. I only get stuck when the snow is taller than the bottom of my car, and rarely h ave trouble on the highway. Keep things smooth and slow (in any car), and you'll be OK. A limited slip differential does a world of good, but I don't have one :P

[jnshk]

I think that mostly the reputation for being bad in the snow is due to lack of information and perhaps lack of experience.

I have driven fwd, 4wd, and rwd in the snow, and really there is not much difference as long as you are aware of what you are doing and do not try to push the vehicle too hard. 4wd is by far the easiest to get going under control, but i actually feel far more comfortable in my rwd Z than I did in my old subaru wagon when I had the 4wd turned off. I think it has quite a bit to do with tires, suspension, and weight distribution as as few have said before. Thought the tires on my subaru were probably actually better for winter than the tires on my Z, the suspension and balance of the Z gives me much quicker and more accurate feeback than the subaru did.

I imagine that with an LSD and a decent set of all-year tires, and maybe a couple sandbags in the trunk, the 240 would be better than many of the fwd cars out there for driving in the snow. Especially if you have upgraded the suspension, since that should result in more feedback allowing you to detect any possible problems quicker and adjust for them.

I think that the big problem with rwd cars in snow and ice would really be hills. It is easier to pull the car up a hill than push it, so fwd could have some advantages in that situation.

Also, in regards to the e-brake suggestion. That is actually a very good idea, because it is basically using the ebrake to reduce your torque to the ground so that you do not break traction and start spinning. I was actually a bit surprised that by shifting to second you were able to stop sliding backwards and get going, but I am realized that the increase in speed of your tires created enough friction to push the car forward even though you did not have full contact. Good call, I guess! Much better than letting it hit the car behind you.

[HippoSleek]

As usual, I agree w/ Steve. After this winter, tires are the #1 factor in my book (by a factor of about 20).

Last winter, I had high performance all seasons on the car, this year I left on my very well worn "ultra" high performance tires (so says tire rack). No comparison. Granted, there were only a couple of days of snow last year, but it was bearable - even w/o LSD.

Last year it was squirly in the snow - particlarly when it was icy. Starting in second allowed the car to get moving. No problems on non-icy/snowy roads.

This year (w/ plenty of snow to play in), it is useless. Honestly, I can't even get out of my parking lot if there is snow. I have sat in 5th gear at idle and the wheel just spun!! (I will try the e-brake idea). Yesterday I chirped into third - on a stock KA w/ a stock clutch on a dry 20 degree road. When the air temp has been below 30 degrees for a day or two, even the cold dry roads are treacherous. First gear is almost useless due to wheelspin - as is second if you jump on the gas (although now I remember what it was like to drive someone's well modded SR :p )

Bottom line - good summer tires can make a mediocre performer a HORRIBLE performer.

[SHINCHU]

i drove my stock 240 with hicas in the snow during winter of 2000/2001 in philly and it was a hoot! i could kick the rear out whenever i wanted and i had great control! they were just regular all-season tires so i dont know what snow tires would have felt like. i would go out and play in the parking lot accross from my house when it had fresh snow on it. 360's with rear AND front tires sliding is really fun! anyway... i think a 240 in the snow is cool. never tried my ae86 in the snow, but im sure the experience would be similar since both cars are LSD equipped. i cant stand it when people tell me "oh front wheel drive is better in snow." ummmm okay, sure. when you turn in your FF and hit the gass, what happens? you go straight. when i turn in my FR and hit the gas, what happens? i turn... and turn really fun! okay im done.

chris

[mrdirty]

Originally posted by Drifted off road
if u ever get stuck going up a smaller hill if u slightly pull up ur e-brake while on the gas u will not slip as much.

tried it today on ice....worked like a charm! Thanks!

[uiuc240]

I tried that ebrake trick on flat ground when I got stuck with my kuhmo ecsta 712's (you can tell your tires don't wrok well in snow when you pull in your garage and the treads are still clean) and it didn't really help, it just stopped them from spinning faster, they still spun. I think it would be beneficial with an LSD, but with an open diff I didn't find much difference.

The only thing I've found to make a big impact was changing tires.

EDIT: That was Steve posting, not Eric. Weird. I sent a link to him, and it cookied me on his computer. Mark??!

[mbmbmb23]

RWD + Torquie engine/drivetrain + Light rear end + bad weather = spin out.



-m

[thelinja]

Personally, I have no trouble driving in the snow with all-season tires, yet every consumer report I've read says "Nice car, but horrible wet/snow traction, I will never buy one again." blah blah. I just think RWD wasn't meant for some people. They think they can accelerate quickly in the snow...wrong. I guess I just don't mind driving 15-20mph on solid ice. Maybe it's just me, because I've never had anything but a RWD car. My previous car was a 3600lbs Ford Crown Vic with a 65/35 weight ratio and that boat handled excellent in the snow.

[burgy240]

RWD, no LSD(mine at least) and Torque baby!!

[Phlip]

My problem is that I have always needed back tires in the 3 snow storms I've encountered in the almost 2 years I've had my car... I'm prepared this time, and they are calling for more this weekend.