Operation "Grip" S13?? help me decide (extended reading)

[MrFairlady]

Ok...so i sold my Supra and want to build a car to TRACK.Not the Ultimate Lightest Absolute insane every possible inch re-done car,..but something Fun to put on the track finally,Built Well enough to my standards.
$7k to 6k budget to start RIGHT NOW,.and of course little additions along the way,..maybe avail to Start in Mar 09.Hoping to start w/ either a car thats Somewhat modded - and Remove everything to be re-installed w/ the Little things for reliability.etc. my touches.Would rather know enough about it to Diag issues it may have - so a dis-assemble to re-assemble.

I'm finally comfortable working on my own cars Period..,armed w/ basic automotive knowledge,tools and garage/facility but prefer something simple and convienent = hence S13 = already own one and actually know it better than Any other car I've owned due to the replacement and upgradinging to the current one I DID.
The S13 that I do own, I have had so much fun getting to the status it is @ now.DAILY DRIVER reliable.I lOVE it!but don't want to Change a thing on it For starters.Otherwise I have something decent to start NOW.

I would like to Build/re-work ANOTHER S13 and curious between it and my other Car I've always kinda wanted - the FC RX7.Now w/ the RX7 I am not really trusting the "wankle" as a All weather (Heat+) Motor, & combine Boost.granted building one right could perform well,..But I would rather Stay away from the Rotary All together,but it is a Possibility.
It would most likely have a Swap of some sort (NA Set up - LS1 maybe,..SR20?, whatever) but too much power (Stock LS1) could overwork my Driving skills also.The FC chassis I love and seems to be designed well For racing,Spirited Driving.,etc.

Moving on:
CAN THE S13 hatch/Coupe be made to Grip well & be fun enough for beginner to possible advanced Events (HPDE's,open sessions etc..not so much Time attack at this point) and while drifting is fun..that would be my 2nd point of intrest.Grip racing is more for me RIGHT now.

Obviously SCC did a review of that using a coupe granted w/ a VQ (S15,and S14) and We all know the S13 is a Designed "tail out" car which they STATED More over,..and can be enduced to Drift,which is why its Normally a DRIFT CAR.
IS THAT due to Hatch Glass weight or Gas tank Placement and could that be corrected w/ the right Mods (Fuel cell,moved to optimum Location,etc) Upgrades and w/in Limits of racing regulations??
Parts are "A PLENTY" for the S13 too and w/ having a hatch now I can interchange things I may need also.I mention that ^ because Tsuchiya states the S14 w/ its Weight combined w/ gas tank placement (over the S13) is OPTIMUM platform (before the S15 was out),..but for Drift or Grip??
yes we all Know the DENT SPORT Hatch,..but I'm not going for THAT Advanced of a Build if you call it that.

I know enough of the SR20 (eaisly worked and upgraded) to be the engine of choice for me,w/ mild upgrades (T28 or Disco-Po) to be fun/fast, as to not be more than my skill will handle but to Build into.
We are all bias here on the Nissan but I know some of you guys own FC's as well.

To END:
Now,..The S14 I do like and know it would prob be the better of the Chassis to Start and Perform best,..I would like it to "look" how I want too and the S14 Dosen't look as good as the S13'sIMO.
SOME can Look Really damn good,..I do have love for the S14 so don't get me wrong.
But If I'm gonna start on a New car I'd rather switch to a totally New/Dif chassis = FC.

Whats the Synapsis
S13 hatch or coupe ?? = I'd prefer another hatch.
or
FC RX7 +swapped ??
w/ prob Alot of money invested to perform all weather,conditions + I know VERY Little about the ol' wankle.


Prev Vehicles:
93 Supra,04 STi,03 EVO,03 350z,01 ITR so I'm not new, but finally have the ability to Track one.

BEING SERIOUS:
Some of you may Say "Why these 2/3 cars of choice".Its Budgeted around these or car's I guess Of the like.

[steve shadows]

s13 coupe , sr20det with s15 turbo, 256 cams, power fc, 17x9 R-Comps, Decent coilovers, bolt in roll bar, good seat , harness, Porterfield brake pads, stock slotted rotors and calipers.

good to go

[Pank]

"and We all know the S13 is a Designed "tail out" car which they STATED"
no? stock, it understeers quite a bit. By your logic, i guess anything rwd is "tail out"


if you think the s chassis was built from nissan to be a drift car, i dont even know what to say.

Any car can be built to "grip", since thats just a fancy term for "any racing thats not drifting".

Since you're in NC, look for e30's, too.

[KwKouki]

coupes are a bit more rigid in the frame. Steve pretty much nailed it though, you dont need much with an SR to have a very responsive and fun engine.

people tend to overpower track cars, 250 - 300hp in a s13 will shock you for HPDE and whatnot. the T28 has been treating me VERY well in autoX with little if any lag during my runs.

bushings should be 1st on your list, you would be shocked at how many people do not have these on a mod list. brakes dont have to be in the $1500 range either. Q45 brakes with good pads and slotted rotors will amaze you. coilovers or if you feel up to the tast some ground control with koni shocks.

no rubber below 245 wide either.

check this thread out

http://zilvia.net/f/motorsports/90478-road-race-setup-track-pics.html

[MrFairlady]

"and We all know the S13 is a Designed "tail out" car which they STATED"
no? stock, it understeers quite a bit. By your logic, i guess anything rwd is "tail out"


if you think the s chassis was built from nissan to be a drift car, i dont even know what to say.

Any car can be built to "grip", since thats just a fancy term for "any racing thats not drifting".

Since you're in NC, look for e30's, too.
I love the way they look sure and from what I know they perform but I've never been a BMW fan.
I see what you mean & yes Stock Form sure they understeer like Crazy JDM & USDM/whatever DM,...Granted I never said Nissan built it as a Drift car....Add Power to the equation - Not Stock for stock.

but My understanding from a Prev S13 Guru (my buddy)says maybe - the S13s Gas tank combined w/ its mediocre weight,.and 240+whp per say...

Put it this way.. SCC had that GUTTED Coupe (if you didn't see that issue) w/ a VQ (287hp +/-) and w/ that combined w/ Suspension,the whole 9...the car was almost in thier words (not mine) too "loose", on throttle out of turns.ALOT of pedal modulation (as w/ just about any RWD car w/ power).

Basically What is too much power and I think its been answered.

What would that Made to "Grip" entail?
too much Stiffness (cage mounted to every Pillar,etc) will I'm sure induce even more oversteer or pedal induced oversteer correct?

I want it to have power yes,..but something fun/fast out of either the S13 or even the FC.

Current Setup BTW in my daily:

Coilovers,Basically stock redSR,3"t-Back,various suspension arms,J30VLSD - now have a HKS Actuator, - installing now = 3" intake w/ N60 Maf to turn up the boost a tad more and Finally got a FMIC on the way.

So basically thats prob and My IDEA of what my "Track" car will own but some serious weight reduction of course and a diff FMIC set up (Mounted infront/behind rad support Possibly Cams - Mild grind - w/ Slim Fans,..T28 or Disco w/ hopefully around the 250+ whp mark.Dosen't need much but I don't want to be left in the dust.Suspension will be my main Focus as well as Wheel/Tire combo.


either way,,,coupe sounds like the tightest of the 2 S13's and thats a given considering the Glass of the hatch.I do love the hatch though.
Mines a base hatch w/ no power or Sun BTW.

[undesiredshoe]

I couldnt understand half of what you typed.

[MrFairlady]

I couldnt understand half of what you typed.
My fault..need to proof read some more on it..I was jumping around. - agreed.

[QuickSpoolSR]

get a good set of coilovers, not the ones designed for drifting, and run wide wheels and tires. To help with oversteer use an upgraded sway bar in the front and a stock in the rear, this helps because the s13 has too much anti-squat, also you will want to shoot for better weight distribution. A hatch is better distributed then the coupe, also you could move the battery to the rear, and run a carbon fiber hood. an sr is lighter then a ka too so that would help. I would say a good seat and a snug fitting harness helps a lot more then you think too, it makes racing so much more comfortable with less fatigue

[QuickSpoolSR]

also get the whole setup corner balanced and aligned at a reputable shop. As for the power setup i would agree with steve shadows, that setup would be really responsive, and it wouldnt be an uncontrollable amount of power. and for wheels if your on a budget get some rpf1's they are super light and cheap

[MrFairlady]

A hatch is better distributed then the coupe,
Excellent.
things like that are What I'm looking for.
Somewhat pro's and Con's.

so your saying the hatch Distributes the weight better (granted it can be 80+lbs heaiver than coupe)...so batt in the back is to keep understeer DOWN???
Wouldn't that add more weight to the rear Causing oversteer eaiser?

See I would Think,ok (if this is legal) - _ _gallon fuel Cell located behind pass seat (in back seat) SOMEHOW, to offset weight of driver on opp side...and maybe the batt mounted between Back seat and rear cargo over subframe??I'm sure its gonna be about things lik ethat and figuring it ALL out what works for me.

[QuickSpoolSR]

as far as auto-x goes people usually shoot for a 50-50 weight distribution, but if you run larger rear tires and wheels a weight distribution with more weight in the rear is actually beneficial.. think of all the sports cars with mid engines and huge rear tires and wheels. It has a lot to do with the suspension set up when considering how the car is going to handle

[QuickSpoolSR]

also a lot of the distribution comes from ride height between front and rear, thats why you should have it corner balanced. O ya and for brakes, get the z32 calipers and 350z track rotors that setup is pretty amazing

[KwKouki]

also a lot of the distribution comes from ride height between front and rear, thats why you should have it corner balanced. O ya and for brakes, get the z32 calipers and 350z track rotors that setup is pretty amazing

all that with a stock MBC right? :bash:

[abstrakt]

Is the cost of the car included in the budget or not?

I love S-Chassis', But I have always personally been intrigued by the FC. Since you already own an S13, I would go for the FC! Find a good Turbo II and get a remanufactured core for around 1500, Upgrade the FMIC add a few other engine components and then go full out suspension/braking. For 7,000 you could have a killer track FC.

One of my favorite time attack FCs:
YouTube - Re雨宮 Fc3s Time Attack (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7gj1x9xhZM)

Re-Amemiya :love:

[QuickSpoolSR]

lol there are tons of things here that need to be adressed, its just hard to sit down and think of everything. obviously a different bmc, and you will want to upgrade that open diff too most likely

[luftrofl]

Nissan Road Racing Forums - Powered by vBulletin (http://nissanroadracing.com/)

I suspect you may find more valid responses there.
There are a few threads on Zilvia that are good but again NRR is much better.. Do some research on your own as well.

Here are a few that I know of on Zilvia...
http://zilvia.net/f/tech-talk/195553-sway-bars.html
http://zilvia.net/f/chat/194834-help-choose-rods-arms-spl-peak-bings-bv.html
http://zilvia.net/f/tech-talk/176499-suspension-components.html

Oh and seriously, it hurts to read your writing.

[fromxtor]

If you would give an S14 a chance I'm selling a zenki shell in NC, and the harness is modified for an SR already. $650 and it's yours.

[drftwerks]

rx7's were designed as sports cars.

[xplicit240]

if your auto X'ing focus on suspension!!!! cant stress it enough.

stock SR just tune.

focus suspension tuning and tire sizing. and it depends what class of auto X you going for. its very specific and very competitive specially around the stock classes.

you have to know what class you want to compete in.

[chibo]

Go look at Jason Rhode's car. You're in over your head with a track car, keep it simple.
S13 coupe, stock KA, cage/seats/harnesses, replace all the bushings, some sort of GC / Koni setup, adjustible links, 300zx or Q45 brake setup ... hell even stock setup refreshed, and a decent wheel/tire setup. Keep it simple, learn to drive first.

[Firestorm]

i would focus on suspension, brakes and tires first, and worry about the power once you're comfortable with your car.

[drift freaq]

Koni's Koni's, Koni's withe either a Koni sleeve and Hypercoil setup or a GC/Eibach setup. Either way. Those will out handle damn near any off the shelf coilover out there. short of the most expensive ones and even some of those.

[Def]

A hatch will weigh about 25-35 lbs more than a coupe with all things being equal. The weight is in the back which is good(makes the car more balanced by spreading the weight evenly between front/rear tires), but up high which is bad. The aerodynamics of the hatch are superior to the coupe, but I don't think it's a huge difference.

Ultimately I say go with what chassis you like - it's only DE usage, and even in time attack stuff, I doubt the few lbs of extra hatch glass are going to be the deciding factor. Although at that point you can replace the hatch with lexan/composite and it's a moot point, and you have better aerodynamics for high speed stuff.


I agree with others, get a nice suspension on the car, some good brakes with track pads(don't even attempt dual duty pads) and drive it around and see how it is.

I personally like a track car with enough power to scare me here and there, but it's not for everybody. A stock KA would lead to a dull track car IMO, but some people tend to like it. It's easy to drive from the standpoint that you can bury your foot to the floor almost anywhere on the track and not worry about power-on oversteer, but it will force you to think about momentum or you'll be super slow.

[jspaeth]

Gotta stiffen up that suspension asap, as everyone says. Critical pieces are gonna be the front T/C rods (just buy solid link ones), swaybars, rear upper camber arms (you are going to need aftermarket adjustable ones, because after you lower the car sufficiently, you are going to have a shit-ton of negative camber and toe-in in the back), toe rods, etc.

Also, having someone that know their shit help oyu with your suspension setup is critical. I have ALL aftermarket adjustable suspension components, but I am sure my car is FAR from optimal from a suspension standpoint, simply because I am no expert on all of the fine tuning.

Good tires of course.

Stock weight distribution (on an S14) is like 53/47 I believe, so if you do a KA-->SR swap that immediately moves it toward 50/50.....relocate the battery or a few other things, and you are getting even closer.

[racepar1]

The s-13 chasis is not the easiest car to turn into a serious grip car. It's natural tendency off the throttle (turn in) is slight understeer and it's natural tendency on the throttle is pronounced oversteer. This is due to the rear subframe design. The s-13's have GOBS of anti-squat engineered into the rear suspension and that is the main reason that they transition to on-throttle oversteer so easily. To help the rear end the SPL solid subframe bushings with the tilt spacers set to "maximum squat" will help. It also helps to have adjustable rear trac arms. If you shorten the trac arms the rear suspension gains more camber under compression, which also means that the suspension loses more camber under droop. This allows you to run less static camber and keeps both tires in better contact with the ground. These two mods will help with the on-throttle oversteer problem. It will by no means make the car perfect, but noticeably better.

Other than that it is just the normal formula. Good coilovers (I would reccomend a ground control/koni 86 series set-up), as much chasis bracing as you can afford, good brakes, and good tires. Be careful with sway bars though. Most aftermarket sways are far too stiff which actually hurts the handling. The best ones out there are the progress adjustable ones. They come with spherical endlinks, are sized very close to perfectly, have a wide range of adjustment, and are reasonably affordable. For the brakes anything more than a z-brake conversion is a waste. I have been running STOCK calipers on my car for a while with good pads, fluid, rotors, and some 3" brake ducts and have had 0 problems. For track use a VLSD works perfectly and predictably. If you wanna upgrade further a s-15 hlsd is perfect and if you wanna be a gangster the quailfe diff is the shiznit for track/autocross. The only clutch type diff that is set-up properly for real track useage is the nismo 1.5 way IMO. I wouldn't reccomend that you go with r-compounds right off the bat as they tend to hide driving mistakes. Basically you will learn more about the car and how you should drive it by going with a set of "street" tires. I have heard very good things about the new dunlop direzza z1 star specs and plan on trying those next myself. That's basically it.

[racepar1]

I personally like a track car with enough power to scare me here and there, but it's not for everybody. A stock KA would lead to a dull track car IMO, but some people tend to like it. It's easy to drive from the standpoint that you can bury your foot to the floor almost anywhere on the track and not worry about power-on oversteer, but it will force you to think about momentum or you'll be super slow.

I personally think it is best to start with the KA because it forces you to actually learn how to drive the car to be fast. Once you have managed to become fast with a KA then step up the power and you will end up a better driver and faster in the end.

To the OP: Listen to this man if you really wanna know how to make an s-13 (or any other car for that matter) fast. He knows what the eff he is talking about.

[MrFairlady]

Excellent Guys! very Constructive.
My Daily S13 Hatch now has just about everything listed by most ALREADY besides: Brakes,Wheel/tire combo thats Track worth and Weight reduction/Chassis Stiff'ning.
The s-13 chasis is not the easiest car to turn into a serious grip car. It's natural tendency off the throttle (turn in) is slight understeer and it's natural tendency on the throttle is pronounced oversteer. This is due to the rear subframe design. The s-13's have GOBS of anti-squat engineered into the rear suspension and that is the main reason that they transition to on-throttle oversteer so easily.

This ^ is exactly what I was trying to TYPE & find out in the orig 1st post above.Basically the same thing that SCC was saying.

My Question there would then lead to the gas tank again?
Is it even Worth it try to maybe remove it and place a tiny bit smaller CELL in a Diff spot in the back ABOVE Subframe??

POWER:
I'd rather have the Motor about where Mine is now (T28 or diff turbo setup) w/ Power that can/could "Scare" me if needed,but also something to grow into as well.If grip is there,..power SHOULD go hand in hand.Its just Finding that Medium.

Good work guys.I love the hatch so much and where everyone says the weight is moot,....I believe I'll look @ getting another Hatch to Start.Its the CAR Basically where my Race/track Budget sits Perfectly on.

[Def]

I personally think it is best to start with the KA because it forces you to actually learn how to drive the car to be fast. Once you have managed to become fast with a KA then step up the power and you will end up a better driver and faster in the end.


True, with no track experience a stock KA is MORE than enough to get you into trouble, and you're going to be learning basic stuff like lines, power application, braking etc.

Even an SR on stock boost will scare the crap out of you your first few events as you pick up speed and find yourself deep into triple digits as you approach braking zones.

I still run my car around 1 bar at the track and I've only comes across a few cars that are much faster on the track(C6 Z06s, 996 TTs, GT3s, really modded FD3Ss that break all the time, etc).


The car is probably not the BEST platform when it comes to "grip" driving, but it's got such aftermarket support and honestly has a pretty good base to start with. If you want something that goes much faster than the sum of its parts with minimal mods, an E36 M3 is what I'd vote for. If you want something you can really have fun with tinkering on the car and adding mods, the S13 is really hard to beat in my book.

When it doubt on what to do to your car, go for reliability and robustness. That statement will take you far.

[koukimonster139]

my car is setup to slide but can grip like a motherfucker with little adjustments

all this technical jargon aside, its all about the person piloting the car

[racepar1]

My Question there would then lead to the gas tank again?
Is it even Worth it try to maybe remove it and place a tiny bit smaller CELL in a Diff spot in the back ABOVE Subframe??

Moving the gas tank is a good idea, but above the subframe will put the weight too high. The best spot to relocate it to would be the rear seat towards the passenger's side. If you want your car to be a street car and are not an experienced fabricator this is not going to happen though. Just leave it where it is and deal with the small weight issues.

my car is setup to slide but can grip like a motherfucker with little adjustments

all this technical jargon aside, its all about the person piloting the car

You are right, but only to a point. If you wanna make a REALLY fast s-13 you must be well versed in "technical jargon". I discovered originally in the canyons, and re-discovered at the track, that most "enthusiasts" out there have no idea what fast really is.

[koukimonster139]

well yea
im talking more from a grip/course navigation standpoint, not so much a fast/speed standpoint

[s13dan]

my car is setup to slide but can grip like a motherfucker with little adjustments

all this technical jargon aside, its all about the person piloting the car

true statement, learning to drive is very important. Im geussing your not real experienced.Get something mild to start with i would say. Whatever it may be and learn to push the car to its limits before you modify. The driver should always be able to out perform his car. Henry Watts wrote a great book on solo racing but is VERY informative for all "grip" racing. its called Secrets of Solo Racing.