Lavondyss
12-12-2002, 03:32 PM
Alright, before anyone goes off, and tells me to use the search button, I've used the search button on every board, and webpage I could get my hands on for the past 4 months. I've learned more than I really want to know at this point, but I still have some questions that could use answering...
Here's the rundown. This isn't a "What If" scenerio... this is a "Which One" situation. I've got approx $13k to work with on a street car, and my goal is for somewhere between 450-600hp out of the motor. The $13k includes the car (S13). This will not be my daily driver, but I love to drive, and need decent reliability out of it. I can't have it in the shop more than about once ever 3 months after it's "done" (Seeing as a project car is never really done).
1. Labor for me is going to be free, if not DIRT cheap. My roomate is a motor wizz, he went to School of Automotive Machinists here in Houston, tx, and works at a local performance shop. The owner of the shop is willing to let him use the space to build this car up, as long as I help promote the shop a little when it's done. He has yet to get his hands dirty with any of these motors, but has put rotaries in 510's, v8's in bugs, h22's in crxs, etc. And, he's VERY creative, and excellent at problem solving.
2. After the purchase of the vehicle, with the addition of suspension work, z32 brake upgrade, and any restoration needed to be done to the vehicle, I'm estimating I'll have about $8k-$9k to spend on performance. Remember, this is just parts, not labor. First thing on the list is Fuel Management. And the best advice I've ever heard about fuel management, is use whatever your tuner is comfortable with. He says I have to get Motec($2000) or Electromotive($1300). So that brings me down to about $7k to spend.
3. So, here's the hard part. Motor Selection! I'm going to post information I have gathered on all of these motors, the do's and don'ts, and why I chose them. This is in order of my preference according to what I've researched. The prices that I list along side these motors is for the ENTIRE front clip of the car, with shipping. If you think these prices are ridiculously low, and I'm not being realistic, don't hesitate to tell me, but nonetheless, I've found these clips from RELIABLE and TRUSTWORTHY sources for these prices (In the States!<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>.
A. RB20DET. Nissan Skyline R32 GTS-T Front Clip. $1400 Shipped. So far, this has become my #1 Choice, for several reasons:
PROS:
#1 Price (Friggin Cheap).
#2 Availablitiy (My source has a STACK of them at all points in time!<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>
#3 Cast Iron Block (Roomate has me sold on that!<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>
#4 Internals can hold over 450hp on approx 12lbs of boost (After Upgrades)
#5 Only adds about 60lbs weight over the KA, and does not hinder handling.
#6 It pops, I can have another motor in less than a week for dirt cheap!
CONS:
#1 If I want to reach my desired hp output, I will need to do internals, and that gets EXPENSIVE on the RB series Motors.
#2 Maintenance. It's not like we have many (if any) compatible maintenance parts here in the states for this motor.
#3 Not alot of info on the swap, so alot more trial and error = $$$$
B. RB25DET. Nissan Skyline R33 GTS-T Front Clip. $2400 Shipped.
PROS:
#1 Price Per Capability.
#2 Availablitiy (My source has a STACK of them at all points in time!<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>
#3 Cast Iron Block (Roomate has me sold on that!<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>
#4 Internals can hold over 450hp on approx 10lbs of boost (After Upgrades)
#5 Only adds about 60lbs weight over the KA, and does not hinder handling.
CONS:
#1 I've read in several places, that these motors are detonation happy (Compression is too high), and cannot take as much of a beating as the rb20det, internals are practically a necessity.
#2 If I want to reach my desired hp output, I will need to do internals, and that gets EXPENSIVE on the RB series Motors.
#3 Maintenance. It's not like we have many (if any) compatible maintenance parts here in the states for this motor.
#4 Not alot of info on the swap, so alot more trial and error = $$$$
#5 Clearance issues in a couple different places. Not a biggie, just a pain!
C. KA24DET. Stock 91-93 USDM 240sx Motor. Free, or DIRT CHEAP $300. This is exactly what I would choose if this was going to be a daily driven car.
PROS:
#1 There's ALOT of PROS!
#2 The money I save on doing a swap can go directly INTO the internals of the motor.
#3 Cast Iron Block.
#4 Sourcing parts for it is rediculously easy.
#5 Regular Maintenance is a breeze.
#6 Lots of information in English (Hehehe) on working with this motor.
CONS:
#1 Availability of Internals. There's pretty much anything out there I want, but I don't have alot of options. EX: I've only found 2 companies that make aftermarket cams.
#2 I have to do a full motor buildup on this to get within my desired power range.
#3 If I do the buildup, and the motor pops, it's going to cost me more than doing a rb26dett in the long run.
#4 It would make sense for me to purchase a 91-93 running with very little issues than it would for me to buy an 89-93 with a blown motor. So probably $1500 more Realistically.
D. CA18DET. 88-90 S13 Silvia + 180sx. Front Clip $1500 Shipped.
PROS:
#1 High Reving motor! (I have an infatuation with Honda Motors, so I like this)
#2 Can hold a sturdy amount of boost on stock internals (14lbs?).
#3 Cast Iron Block.
#4 Can't remember which car (s12 200sx?), but I know there is a USDM car that has a ca18de in it, so I can source parts for maintenance in most cases.
#5 40 lbs lighter than KA. Wooptie friggin doo...
#6 Decently easy swap, with good amount of potential. If I had a lower budget, I would definetly choose this motor.
#7 I've heard over and over that this motor can take a beating, like the rb20det.
CONS:
#1 If I want to reach my desired hp output, I will need to do ALOT of internals, and parts are hard to source, and expensive, on the CA series Motors.
#2 Honestly, doesn't seem like it's worth dumping $8k into unless I had to drive it every day.
#3 Mostly, it's a Money to HP thing. There aren't alot of cons on this motor at all, but I don't think it fits into my specific formula.
E. SR20DET (Redtop). 91-93 S13 Silvia K Front Clip. $2100 Shipped.
PROS:
#1 TONS of information (everybody jumped on this bandwagon)
#2 Maintenance. Considering we have so many cars that have parts that work for maintaining this motor...
#3 Relatively Straight Forward Swap.
#4 I've been told, but still don't quite believe it, that this motor can hold upwards of 22lbs of boost on stock internals. 15lbs sounds more realistic...
#5 Lots of parts available for building this motor up.
CONS:
#1 Since there is a high demand for this motor, the price on it is about 300% what it's worth. In Japan, you can get the motor/tranny/ecu/wiring harness for about $450.
#2 Aluminum Block... I've owned Hondas galore, tired of dealing with it. Would need to be sleeved, to reach my desired hp output, and that costs $$$$$ ($1200).
#3 I'll have to do SOME internals (Sleeves, Pistons, Rods) to get in my hp range, and If I'm going to open up my motor... I'm going to go ahead and do the whole shabang at once, which shoots this way above my intended budget.
#4 Again, it's a money to HP thing. I've heard it said before a thousand times, and I'll repeat it right now. For the tuner on a tight strict budget, this is the motor to have. Out of the box, it pumps out a good amount of power, easy to find, cheap to maintain, and the boost can be cranked after you've done the 5-50-500. But I want more room for growth, and this is the most expensive route of all of these choices to reach my optimum goal of 600hp.
Alright. Now that I've gone off on my tanget, please be gentle. I want to get alot of facts and corrections from people. Not propaganda about these motors that is false, and has been spread around as facts. Again, if I was on a stricter budget, I would almost literally reverse this list. This is NOT my 1st project car, and the $13k is not "every penny" I have. I set aside $2k for the oh shits that happen, as I am fully aware that "if anything can go wrong, it will"! The company I would get these front clips from has told me over and over again, that if anything is missing off the front clip, or damaged that I need, they will priority ship it to me for free. I would love to hear from people that have RB series motors in there s13! Any information would be greatly appreciated. I used to own a web design company, so whichever one of these swaps I do, will be FULLY documented, pictures, details, description of every tiny little problem encountered. Hopefully this will help to get the ball rolling for the rest of the 240sx community who has had the same questions, and done the same research, but wants the real world details and numbers. I'm going to keep reciepts, and log hours, as well as all equipment used, and every company that made custom X part. So dish it out boys... I can take it.
Thanks,
Charles Weller
Houston, Tx
[email protected]
Here's the rundown. This isn't a "What If" scenerio... this is a "Which One" situation. I've got approx $13k to work with on a street car, and my goal is for somewhere between 450-600hp out of the motor. The $13k includes the car (S13). This will not be my daily driver, but I love to drive, and need decent reliability out of it. I can't have it in the shop more than about once ever 3 months after it's "done" (Seeing as a project car is never really done).
1. Labor for me is going to be free, if not DIRT cheap. My roomate is a motor wizz, he went to School of Automotive Machinists here in Houston, tx, and works at a local performance shop. The owner of the shop is willing to let him use the space to build this car up, as long as I help promote the shop a little when it's done. He has yet to get his hands dirty with any of these motors, but has put rotaries in 510's, v8's in bugs, h22's in crxs, etc. And, he's VERY creative, and excellent at problem solving.
2. After the purchase of the vehicle, with the addition of suspension work, z32 brake upgrade, and any restoration needed to be done to the vehicle, I'm estimating I'll have about $8k-$9k to spend on performance. Remember, this is just parts, not labor. First thing on the list is Fuel Management. And the best advice I've ever heard about fuel management, is use whatever your tuner is comfortable with. He says I have to get Motec($2000) or Electromotive($1300). So that brings me down to about $7k to spend.
3. So, here's the hard part. Motor Selection! I'm going to post information I have gathered on all of these motors, the do's and don'ts, and why I chose them. This is in order of my preference according to what I've researched. The prices that I list along side these motors is for the ENTIRE front clip of the car, with shipping. If you think these prices are ridiculously low, and I'm not being realistic, don't hesitate to tell me, but nonetheless, I've found these clips from RELIABLE and TRUSTWORTHY sources for these prices (In the States!<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>.
A. RB20DET. Nissan Skyline R32 GTS-T Front Clip. $1400 Shipped. So far, this has become my #1 Choice, for several reasons:
PROS:
#1 Price (Friggin Cheap).
#2 Availablitiy (My source has a STACK of them at all points in time!<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>
#3 Cast Iron Block (Roomate has me sold on that!<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>
#4 Internals can hold over 450hp on approx 12lbs of boost (After Upgrades)
#5 Only adds about 60lbs weight over the KA, and does not hinder handling.
#6 It pops, I can have another motor in less than a week for dirt cheap!
CONS:
#1 If I want to reach my desired hp output, I will need to do internals, and that gets EXPENSIVE on the RB series Motors.
#2 Maintenance. It's not like we have many (if any) compatible maintenance parts here in the states for this motor.
#3 Not alot of info on the swap, so alot more trial and error = $$$$
B. RB25DET. Nissan Skyline R33 GTS-T Front Clip. $2400 Shipped.
PROS:
#1 Price Per Capability.
#2 Availablitiy (My source has a STACK of them at all points in time!<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>
#3 Cast Iron Block (Roomate has me sold on that!<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>
#4 Internals can hold over 450hp on approx 10lbs of boost (After Upgrades)
#5 Only adds about 60lbs weight over the KA, and does not hinder handling.
CONS:
#1 I've read in several places, that these motors are detonation happy (Compression is too high), and cannot take as much of a beating as the rb20det, internals are practically a necessity.
#2 If I want to reach my desired hp output, I will need to do internals, and that gets EXPENSIVE on the RB series Motors.
#3 Maintenance. It's not like we have many (if any) compatible maintenance parts here in the states for this motor.
#4 Not alot of info on the swap, so alot more trial and error = $$$$
#5 Clearance issues in a couple different places. Not a biggie, just a pain!
C. KA24DET. Stock 91-93 USDM 240sx Motor. Free, or DIRT CHEAP $300. This is exactly what I would choose if this was going to be a daily driven car.
PROS:
#1 There's ALOT of PROS!
#2 The money I save on doing a swap can go directly INTO the internals of the motor.
#3 Cast Iron Block.
#4 Sourcing parts for it is rediculously easy.
#5 Regular Maintenance is a breeze.
#6 Lots of information in English (Hehehe) on working with this motor.
CONS:
#1 Availability of Internals. There's pretty much anything out there I want, but I don't have alot of options. EX: I've only found 2 companies that make aftermarket cams.
#2 I have to do a full motor buildup on this to get within my desired power range.
#3 If I do the buildup, and the motor pops, it's going to cost me more than doing a rb26dett in the long run.
#4 It would make sense for me to purchase a 91-93 running with very little issues than it would for me to buy an 89-93 with a blown motor. So probably $1500 more Realistically.
D. CA18DET. 88-90 S13 Silvia + 180sx. Front Clip $1500 Shipped.
PROS:
#1 High Reving motor! (I have an infatuation with Honda Motors, so I like this)
#2 Can hold a sturdy amount of boost on stock internals (14lbs?).
#3 Cast Iron Block.
#4 Can't remember which car (s12 200sx?), but I know there is a USDM car that has a ca18de in it, so I can source parts for maintenance in most cases.
#5 40 lbs lighter than KA. Wooptie friggin doo...
#6 Decently easy swap, with good amount of potential. If I had a lower budget, I would definetly choose this motor.
#7 I've heard over and over that this motor can take a beating, like the rb20det.
CONS:
#1 If I want to reach my desired hp output, I will need to do ALOT of internals, and parts are hard to source, and expensive, on the CA series Motors.
#2 Honestly, doesn't seem like it's worth dumping $8k into unless I had to drive it every day.
#3 Mostly, it's a Money to HP thing. There aren't alot of cons on this motor at all, but I don't think it fits into my specific formula.
E. SR20DET (Redtop). 91-93 S13 Silvia K Front Clip. $2100 Shipped.
PROS:
#1 TONS of information (everybody jumped on this bandwagon)
#2 Maintenance. Considering we have so many cars that have parts that work for maintaining this motor...
#3 Relatively Straight Forward Swap.
#4 I've been told, but still don't quite believe it, that this motor can hold upwards of 22lbs of boost on stock internals. 15lbs sounds more realistic...
#5 Lots of parts available for building this motor up.
CONS:
#1 Since there is a high demand for this motor, the price on it is about 300% what it's worth. In Japan, you can get the motor/tranny/ecu/wiring harness for about $450.
#2 Aluminum Block... I've owned Hondas galore, tired of dealing with it. Would need to be sleeved, to reach my desired hp output, and that costs $$$$$ ($1200).
#3 I'll have to do SOME internals (Sleeves, Pistons, Rods) to get in my hp range, and If I'm going to open up my motor... I'm going to go ahead and do the whole shabang at once, which shoots this way above my intended budget.
#4 Again, it's a money to HP thing. I've heard it said before a thousand times, and I'll repeat it right now. For the tuner on a tight strict budget, this is the motor to have. Out of the box, it pumps out a good amount of power, easy to find, cheap to maintain, and the boost can be cranked after you've done the 5-50-500. But I want more room for growth, and this is the most expensive route of all of these choices to reach my optimum goal of 600hp.
Alright. Now that I've gone off on my tanget, please be gentle. I want to get alot of facts and corrections from people. Not propaganda about these motors that is false, and has been spread around as facts. Again, if I was on a stricter budget, I would almost literally reverse this list. This is NOT my 1st project car, and the $13k is not "every penny" I have. I set aside $2k for the oh shits that happen, as I am fully aware that "if anything can go wrong, it will"! The company I would get these front clips from has told me over and over again, that if anything is missing off the front clip, or damaged that I need, they will priority ship it to me for free. I would love to hear from people that have RB series motors in there s13! Any information would be greatly appreciated. I used to own a web design company, so whichever one of these swaps I do, will be FULLY documented, pictures, details, description of every tiny little problem encountered. Hopefully this will help to get the ball rolling for the rest of the 240sx community who has had the same questions, and done the same research, but wants the real world details and numbers. I'm going to keep reciepts, and log hours, as well as all equipment used, and every company that made custom X part. So dish it out boys... I can take it.
Thanks,
Charles Weller
Houston, Tx
[email protected]