Is the 240sx a sports car?

[Natty]

I have beent hinking about this ever since my last insurance bill &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':('>
I know there is no set defintion of a sports car, but I do think the 240sx fits it. It's light, nimble, balanced, good suspension, disc brakes all around, RWD....

I know the Porsche 944 is a sports car and the 240sx is like a baby 944. Not as big an engine and not as connected to the road.

I don't see why not? Perhaps a sports coupe becuase of the 2+2 designation?
Jeff

[AKADriver]

Be very careful using the term 'sports car' - to some people it's clearly defined, to others it isn't. &nbsp;Telling someone their car isn't a sports car can start a holy war, or at the least bruise a lot of egos.

A sports car is a car intended for sport... not just racing, but 'sport' any way you can define it. &nbsp;A sports car is one that is (reasonably) uncompromised, designed for driving excitement and that's it.

The 944 and 240SX are somewhat compromised. &nbsp;They are weathertight, four-seaters, with luxury accessories.

By the purest definition there aren't many true sports cars in current production... &nbsp;the Ariel Atom, Lotus Elise family, and anything made by Caterham would definitely qualify.

Nissan never meant the 240SX/Silvia family to be a sports car in the truest sense; it was built to be mass marketable and make money. &nbsp;It was built to battle other low priced coupes, particularly the original Toyota Celica. &nbsp;It was RWD because everything was RWD back then. &nbsp;Of course the decision upon the S13's release to keep the car rear-drive is what puts the 240SX into the grey zone; that's one LESS compromise than the car's contemporaries.

[misnomer]

yes

[whateverjames]

i don't think it's a pure sports car. but it's only my opinion. it's a good car, i drive it, and i love it. that's all that matters, and i can always pretend it's a sports car if it really isn't. &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/thumbs-up.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':thumbsup:'>

[HippoSleek]

no

even the s13 feels too heavy and the power:weight isn't there.

[Kreator]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (HippoSleek @ Dec. 03 2002,6:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">no

even the s13 feels too heavy and the power:weight isn't there.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
So that makes 60's corvette/chevelle/camaro/firebird non sports cars too?

I'd put it this way. If anyone remembers the old "ricer's make jesus babys cry" thing on corvette forum, there was a post that i thought was pretty well defining the term sports car. Basicly, what it said was that a sports car is a car that is fast/wellhandling from the factory. Cars that were built to be fast or to handle well from the factory. He did have some controversial stuff in there, but this statement i agree with. Along these lines then Silvia is a sports car and 240sx isn't. 240sx with an sr or a kat isn't a sports car either (since it's not like that from the factory).

That's my take on this.

[LanceS13]

It's a sport compact. &nbsp;A practical car with pretty good stock performance, plenty of "luggage" capacity, 4 seats, comfort compramises, but all with a sporty side. &nbsp;If it had better factory tuned suspension, 100lbs lighter, mechanical LSD, and 50 more hp, I would have no problem calling it a sports car. &nbsp;As it is...I might could live with calling it an entry level sports car, kinda like the first Z cars. &nbsp;In my mind's eye, there are very few true sports cars...maybe the RX-7 and MR-2. &nbsp;Most cars with power are big and fall in the GT or sport/luxury coupe class. &nbsp;Most cars with less/medium power and better handling are topless roadsters. &nbsp;But really, you could lump all of them into an all-encompassing generic sports car class...from the Neon ACR to the Lambo Diablo....or whatever....ok, I'm just rambling now. &nbsp; <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/lookaround.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':look:'>

[Yoshi]

looking from a diff POV, many insurance companies use one factor if deciding if it's a "sports car":

-=2 seater=-

as stupid as that sounds, that how it is for many :/
so a 300zx TT (z32) is a sports car, and a 2+2 NA 300zx is not.... stupid huh?

[RYNO_s13]

Even though there's at least 2MILLION answers to that question, I would personally have to say that from the drivers point of view it would depend really on package. I'm not really that familiar with the USDM s14+, but in respect to the 13, base model and LE were really not "sports cars". The SE, however, even with the VLSD as opposed to mech. comes closer to being a true "sports car" than anything sold at a reasonable price in the US in years. In stock form, the SE has performance #'s that SMOKE many of the imports of that time. In fact, if you consider the average HP of most cars at the time, they were secondary to the MPG. most car companies at the time were so concerned with fuel efficiency that they didn't even advertise HP. So, 155+ in a USDM car was very respectable. With performance becoming acceptable again, Detroit isn't the only place to find high HP. That's why 240's seem a bit under-powered. I defy you however, to find a car with the all around performance capabilities of an s13 in sport trim. Non-USDM cars not included. BUT, if the insurance company ever asks my opinion, then NO, it's not a sports car, it's my grocery getter. Nuff said.

[drift freaq]

ok here is my take on the question.
S13 SE Hatchback: very close to the definition of a true entry level sports car( the rear seats are an afterthought and really not useable IMHO). It had 155hp, pulled .89 G on the skidpad stock . Drag coefficent of .31 and a cg of .29. It had a almost near perfect weight balance. It actually outperforms a Stock 1972 240Z which is considered to be a true sports car. In other words it qualifies big time.
Stick an SR in it and you have one of the most popular selling sports cars(180sx) in Japan ever. Selling from 1989-1998. Now I would dare anyone of you americans to argue with the Japanese guys over this. I won't .
ok the S13 coupe is a sports coupe as is the S14.
Both can be sports car contenders becuase they are pretty much the same thing as the hatch with coupe bodywork.
Though they still fall into the sports coupe catagory.
300zx is a sports GT which is a sports car that has gone upscale hahahha.
Corvette ya its a sports car.
Camaro's ,Mustangs, Firebirds are all pony cars which are somewhere between a sports car and a muscle car.

thats my take

[AceInHole]

a man who hunts is a sportsman.... so a car that hunts is a sportscar??

has your 240sx gone hunting lately?
mine has.... for some snow covered twisty roads :-D <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/devil.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':devil:'> <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/inlove.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':love:'> <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':cool:'> <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/blush.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':blush:'> <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/alien.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':alien:'> <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/music.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':music:'> <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sarcasm.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':sarcasm:'> <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/dozingoff.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':zzz:'> <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'>

i've got the all-season sports car goin &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sneaky2.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':evil:'>

[AKADriver]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Kreator @ Dec. 03 2002,6:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So that makes 60's corvette/chevelle/camaro/firebird non sports cars too?</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Yes. &nbsp;Well, the Corvette is now and has always been a sports car. &nbsp;It is America's Sports Car. &nbsp;The Camaro/Firebird is a pony car and the Chevelle was a midsize sedan. &nbsp;Note: The Chevelle SS was a musclecar, which I think is what you're getting at, but the standard Chevelle was rather boring. &nbsp;My parents had a '67 Chevelle with a <100hp 194ci inline six. &nbsp;Some sports car <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':laugh:'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'd put it this way. If anyone remembers the old "ricer's make jesus babys cry" thing on corvette forum, there was a post that i thought was pretty well defining the term sports car. Basicly, what it said was that a sports car is a car that is fast/wellhandling from the factory. Cars that were built to be fast or to handle well from the factory.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

But that would include things like the Bentley Continental Turbo R, etc - machines that are impressive, but not sporting. &nbsp;Too much mass. &nbsp;Too much luxury. &nbsp;That's more like the definition of "performance car".

That definition also EXCLUDES many of the classic examples of sports cars. &nbsp;Triumph Spitfires are dog-ass slow. &nbsp;Miatas aren't too fast either.

[91CRXsiR]

to me a sports car is where it puts performance before luxury, in many cases having power windows/locks/sunroof and etc all make it a non-sports car .. the integra type R is a good example of a sports car , eventhough its has powereverything, they decided to go cloth seats instead of leather, most type Rs have no moonroof to keep weight down.
i think the the ITR and CTR are sports cars where as the Civic Si is a sports coupe and so is the RSX- type S all the type S are more sports coupe than Race/sport car.

but going back the the orginal question. i don't think the USDM S13-14 is a sports car its a sporty car... like the si and type S...
drop in a SR and more aggressive brakes/suspsension and it would be a Sports car

[HippoSleek]

Ryan brings up a great point - I've always thought of Muscle cars as what many of the fwd imports of today are. &nbsp;Things like the TL Type S, Civic Si, Neon ACR, and all those new econo-boxes w/ boost remind me of the muscle cars. &nbsp;Too weak of a design to be a real sports car - just a crappy design w/ a lot more power and a bit more handling. &nbsp;Basically, like the Nova or Galaxy of days gone by, there is one for your mom and one for you.

I like Lance's thinking, but I can't get into making that many boxes for cars. &nbsp;Plus, if a 240sx + 50 hp and LSD is a sports car, what the hell IS a z06, a Viper, or a Porsche turbo? &nbsp;I think "sports car" should be the pinacle, not the beginning.

I also like Ryno's point about what it was for its time... but it was still a far cry from a Porsche, a Vette, or even a Camaro. &nbsp;Drift's points are also really interesting, but I'd counter that at 600 lbs. less, the 240z was a MUCH different car - especially given its period and price. &nbsp;

What I really like is the introduction of the "pony car" class to our discussion. &nbsp;Personally, I think that is exactly where the 240 w/ an SR - not a KA - fits in. &nbsp;There's a reason it was referred to as a "Japanese Camaro" before eveyone started thinking the SR made it a Supra. &nbsp;If you look at the specs of a Mustang GT (260hp/300tq; .87g's; 56/44 weight dist.; 3200#; $23,000) or a Camaro Z28 (non-SS) (310hp/340tq; .86g's; 56/44 weight dist.; 3400#; $23,000) you'll see they are a little heavier than the 240 or Silvia but make up for it w/ more power and bigger brakes and tires. &nbsp;Otherwise, it seems to fit. &nbsp;As much as people may hate to admit it, those cars ain't too bad <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':cool:'>

I admit, I have no idea how to class a Miata. &nbsp;I think they fit in w/ classic sports cars, but in a world where pony cars have such impressive numbers and family sedans like Intrepids can smoke them, I don't know what to make of Miatas, Sunbeams, Triumphs, etc. &nbsp;(the former category of "poor man's sports cars). <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>

I really like this discussion for some reason... &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/thumbs-up.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':thumbsup:'>

[LanceS13]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Yoshi @ Dec. 03 2002,7:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">looking from a diff POV, many insurance companies use one factor if deciding if it's a "sports car":

-=2 seater=-

as stupid as that sounds, that how it is for many :/
so a 300zx TT (z32) is a sports car, and a 2+2 NA 300zx is not.... stupid huh?</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
So would that make the Honda CRX a sports car and the McLaren F1 not (3 seats)? <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'>

[AKADriver]

I don't think it's any coincidence that one of my friends went from a Dodge Dart Swinger V8 to a Neon R/T. &nbsp;Same car, 30 years apart. &nbsp;The 'sport compact' and 'musclecar' concepts are remarkably similar... &nbsp;big engine + little cheap car = fast. &nbsp;Carroll Shelby understood it, and it took the marketplace a decade to catch up with him. &nbsp;It bothers me that the popular biographies of Ol' Shel completely skip the Dodge days. &nbsp;The GLH-S, Daytona Turbo Z, etc. are important missing links between the end of the musclecar and the rise of the sport compact.

The pony car comparison with the 240SX/Silvia is dead on, too. &nbsp;Again looking back at history, remember that early Celica? &nbsp;The first gen Celica looked exactly like a slightly shrunken 'stang. &nbsp;During the mid-'70s Toyota actually built a better Mustang than Ford did. &nbsp;You want something REALLY scary, compare the specs of a S13 Silvia/180SX and a Fox Body Mustang 5.0. &nbsp;Exactly the same weight, power, dimensions. &nbsp;The only thing keeping our cars from being true pony cars is the lack of a V8 option (but hey, in the mid '80s the fastest Mustang had an intercooled turbo four cylinder...)

[RYNO_s13]

First of all, a miata would classify as a roadster. Secondly, a few months ago, one of the mainstream auto mags ran an article, I forget which mag, and I really don't remember most of what the article said, but there was one thing that stuck out. The basic idea behind the article was the same question that all of us have been asking. What makes a sports car? The point at the end of all the technical drivel about cars most of us will never drive was that regardless of the TECHNICAL definition of a "sports car", ANY car, bought and driven purely for the enjoyment of the experience, is a sports car. That being the case, if we all agree that we bought 240's for enjoyment and love of the car and her potential, then yes, she is a "sports car".

[Jg240]

I agree with whoever it was that said the whole sport coupe thing...but it seems like my insurance co. thinks its the fastest sports car around...at least that what i think when i see the bill

[AKADriver]

A Miata is a roadster and a small-bore sports car, just like the Sentra SE-R is a sedan and a sport compact.

That's not to say all roadsters are sports cars; back in the early days of automobiles when these definitions were first put in place, there were many non-sports roadsters, like the Ford 'T-bucket' (2-door, 2-seat version of the Model T). &nbsp;Or even as recently as the early '90s there was the Mercury Capri, a roadster but not much of a sports car.

[Kreator]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (AKADriver @ Dec. 04 2002,12:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Kreator @ Dec. 03 2002,6:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So that makes 60's corvette/chevelle/camaro/firebird non sports cars too?</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Yes. Well, the Corvette is now and has always been a sports car. It is America's Sports Car. The Camaro/Firebird is a pony car and the Chevelle was a midsize sedan. Note: The Chevelle SS was a musclecar, which I think is what you're getting at, but the standard Chevelle was rather boring. My parents had a '67 Chevelle with a <100hp 194ci inline six. Some sports car <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':laugh:'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'd put it this way. If anyone remembers the old "ricer's make jesus babys cry" thing on corvette forum, there was a post that i thought was pretty well defining the term sports car. Basicly, what it said was that a sports car is a car that is fast/wellhandling from the factory. Cars that were built to be fast or to handle well from the factory.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

But that would include things like the Bentley Continental Turbo R, etc - machines that are impressive, but not sporting. Too much mass. Too much luxury. That's more like the definition of "performance car".

That definition also EXCLUDES many of the classic examples of sports cars. Triumph Spitfires are dog-ass slow. Miatas aren't too fast either.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Hmm well.... drop the chevelle thing <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'>
But camaros and firebirds are still there. What i'm basicly getting at is that there is no defininition of a sports car. The one prolly by which we should go is whether the car is labeled sports from the factory. Cuz u cant really label corvette a non-sports car, even though in the 60's it couldn't turn worth crap. And you can't really compare Enzo and 350z even though they are both still in teh same category.
As for insurance companies, i'd say they'd label geo metro a sports car if the law let the do that <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/whatsthat.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':whatthe:'>

[RYNO_s13]

I'm not sure how many people are aware of this, but GM has decided to send the camaro/firebird platform the way of the dinosaur. GONE. That means that there are now only 2 american sports cars left. Hmm... there has to be a reason for that.

[HippoSleek]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RYNO_s13 @ Dec. 04 2002,12:57)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'm not sure how many people are aware of this, but GM has decided to send the camaro/firebird platform the way of the dinosaur. GONE. That means that there are now only 2 american sports cars left. Hmm... there has to be a reason for that.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
touche - there have been two American sports cars for the last several years - the Vette and the Viper. &nbsp;Before that, there were two sports and two ponies. &nbsp;Keep in mind that in the late 1990s, there was ONE Japanese sports car... now there's maybe two slight chance of three, but still no pony cars - unless you consider the S2k one.

As for the 350z - that's a tough one. &nbsp;It fits in the class of poor man's sports cars, along w/ the Boxter S, the S2k, M3, etc. &nbsp;But, of course, that's where all Japanese sports cars have fit in except the NSX. &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/huh2.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':huh2:'>

Want a sports car, you better cross the other ocean <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'>

[direb0y]

My insurance company says it's a sports car, and it doesen't have cupholders soo...

I always thougth the 240sx had an identity crisis. Sports car potential is just an sr20det/ca18det away.

[Kreator]

When the camaro DID come out it was a sports car.
Got a question for you guys. We all agree that the m3 will fit the sports car. What about m5 though? Sports or luxury?

[RYNO_s13]

I was actually referring to the vette and the mustang cobra. I quit thinking of the viper as a sports car after driving one of the pigs a few years ago. This opinion was reinforced a couple weeks ago when I discovered that the HKS HIPER Silvia puts out 430hp from 4 cylinders, and the Viper puts out a WHOPPING 450hp from 10 yes, 10!! I know what you're thinking, HKS is a race car and the viper is a street car. Yes, but even after all the mods, I bet the HKS Silvia is still cheaper.

[HippoSleek]

hmm - i disagree about the Camaro coming out as a sports car. &nbsp;I think it was a pony car from day one. &nbsp;It was no match for a Vette... or at least no more so that it ever was/is.

I think the m3 is tricky too. &nbsp;I'm inclined to put it in sports coupe (along w/ the Skyline, M5, Astons). &nbsp;While the m3 is awfully close to sports car performance, it really isnt' going to touch a Vette/Viper/Etc. (did you see 24 hrs. at Nurbergring this weekend on Speed?). &nbsp;

Ryno - I can make a Civic that will beat the pants off the HKS HIPER Shit in hp/cylinder or litre. &nbsp;That's not the point. &nbsp;If the HIPER Silvia were all that, it would be winning Nurbergring, not a Viper. &nbsp;It would be doing LeMans, not a Viper. &nbsp;But it ain't, is it? &nbsp;a) your seat of the pants impression is much less important than that of the automotive journalistic and racing community ( &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sneaky2.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':evil:'> &nbsp;no harm intended); b) the test here is stock, not tuner cars. &nbsp;Mustang Cobra? &nbsp;Naw - still has the fundamental characteristics of a pony car (see also, Camaro SS).

[AKADriver]

The Camaro was built to compete with the Mustang. &nbsp;The Mustang was built to compete with the Corvair... seriously! &nbsp;None of these are sports cars... &nbsp;Ford even drew up a Mustang sedan and wagon, built a few prototypes but never produced them.

The M3 is really a sports sedan, you could argue the more common 2 door versions are sports coupes, but whatever. &nbsp;I think of the 2 door 3-series as a 2 door sedan anyway... a term that was commonly used to describe 5-seater 2 doors until about the '80s. &nbsp;"coupe" makes for better marketing so that's what people use now for any 2 door, but "coupe" seems to fit better with cars that have only 2 seats or limited "2+2" rear seating, like the 240SX.

A lot of these distinctions were much more, well, distinct at some point in the past. &nbsp;There's no mistaking a '32 Ford 2 door sedan for a '32 Ford Coupe...

[RYNO_s13]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (HippoSleek @ Dec. 04 2002,1:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ryno - I can make a Civic that will beat the pants off the HKS HIPER Shit in hp/cylinder or litre. That's not the point. If the HIPER Silvia were all that, it would be winning Nurbergring, not a Viper. It would be doing LeMans, not a Viper. But it ain't, is it? a) your seat of the pants impression is much less important than that of the automotive journalistic and racing community ( <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sneaky2.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':evil:'> no harm intended); b) the test here is stock, not tuner cars. Mustang Cobra? Naw - still has the fundamental characteristics of a pony car (see also, Camaro SS).</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
There's an old saying about how you can strap a jet engine to a brick and make it haul ass. Keep that in mind for a minute, I'll be getting back to it. The HKS Silvia is an example of a purpose built car. Drift, nothing more, nothing less. That car would be as out of place at Le Mans as a Viper would be at D1. Apples and oranges. I know, I brought it up, but as a smart ass example of the shortcomings of the platform. As for the Civic hp/liter, I would be stunned if you couldn't, (jet engine/ brick) however, for drift, he who has the most hp is not always the winner. I believe that easily 150hp+ could be squeezed out of NOB's Silvia, but why? I agree that in the grand scheme of things my in the drivers seat commentary of the Viper is less than zero compared to the race/journalistic side of things, but keep in mind these are the same people who declared the Ford Focus "Sport Compact of the Year". Uh...Huh? If we're narrowing things down to stock, drive off the lot performance, are we letting special editions into the race?

[HippoSleek]

Ryan - agreed on the M3 as sports sedan. &nbsp;That was what I wanted to say, but I thought someone would insist it is a coupe. &nbsp;I think NA may be the only place to insist that anything w/ 2 doors is a coupe and anything with 4 is a sedan. &nbsp;"Coupe" fits for a Camaro or 240sx or SC400... but not a Monte Carlo or M3 or TL.

Drift? &nbsp; <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/whatsthat.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':whatthe:'> &nbsp; That isn't applicable at all. &nbsp;What makes a good drift car has nothing to do with a good sports car. &nbsp;The live-axle-flex-chassis-king-dorifto car (86) is NOT a sports car - not even close. &nbsp;Not to mention that when you limit sports car to drift, you rule out about 80% of the cars eligible for that class b/c the rest of the world doesn't dori. &nbsp;When I say sports, I mean racing not auto-ballet.

Also agreed auto journalists may not be the sharpest sometimes, but between the good ones and the developing racing history of the car (stock and mod) - there's more to the Viper than a pile of sh!t. &nbsp;As for the Focus - check one out at an autox. &nbsp;Not pretty, not fast, but GRM seems to have had a good time testing them!

Special editions is something I was thinking about... what about a Cobra? &nbsp;or the SS? &nbsp;or the unicorn-like 270R? &nbsp;or the Lingenfelter? &nbsp;or the Cyclone/Typhoon? or the SL55? &nbsp;I think the Cobra and SS should be elible for discussion b/c I see them every day. &nbsp;there were what - 1000 270R's? &nbsp;I know there is a line there... like if there were fewer made than Ferraris the same year, there might be a problem. &nbsp;(see also BMW GTR <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'> &nbsp;)

Ugh - the more I think about this topic, the more I want a dirt cheap Camaro SS &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/devil.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':devil:'>

[RYNO_s13]

Hippo, if you ever get the chance to drive a Rousch edition Mustang, DO IT!! There's something about getting behind the wheel of a blown V-8 with a snail bigger than your head. &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/crazy.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':crazy:'>

[HippoSleek]

<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/devil.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':devil:'> &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/devil.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':devil:'> &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/devil.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':devil:'>

Actually, I have a friend who recently acquired a supercharged Cobra that has been fully built. &nbsp;I'm on the list for a drive... after it's done snowing around here. &nbsp;The Roush would be that much better. &nbsp;I think the skid pad numbers for those are closing in on 1.0g too. &nbsp; <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/inlove.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':love:'>

[HippoSleek]

How about a corrollary question: &nbsp;For whatever class you put the 240sx in (or the Silvia - your choice), what are its competitors/class mates?

[RYNO_s13]

Prior to moving back home to San Diego, I had a detailing business up around Fresno, Having had the chance to drive almost anything you can think of, (one of our clients was an exotic car rental agency) the Rousch Mustang gave me chills.

To answer the corollary Q, Civic, Integra, Skyline, Accord. Why? Because they all have versions sold in the US that pale in comparison to their Japanese sisters.

[GTR240]

personally. &nbsp;this is what i think.

sports car= 2 doors no back seats (vette, viper, yes McClaren, miata)

sports coupe= 2 doors + non functional rear seats (240, Prelude, NA 300zx, Silvia, GTR)

Sports sedan= 2-4 doors w/ functional rear seats (civics, m5, etc)

muscle car= the cars from the 60's still around today...i know that the camero and firebird are dead but you still see them on the road...oh yeah have rear seats. &nbsp;(stang, camero, firebird, gto). i know the vette is a SC but no rear seats.

there are many others and you can fling them at me...like Bently-just a sedan with SC type performance...it is the price that throws it off (i think).


direct compettion for the 240 is anything that looks like the 240. &nbsp;fundemental design.

[LanceS13]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (HippoSleek @ Dec. 04 2002,4:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">How about a corrollary question: For whatever class you put the 240sx in (or the Silvia - your choice), what are its competitors/class mates?</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
just off the top of my head...for the USDM 240SX (competitors, not classmates):
3 series (not M), Integras, EX/Si Civics, Preludes, Probes, V6 Stangs/Camaros/Fartbirds, n/a FC's, n/a 944's, 1.6 and early 1.8L Miatas, Celicas, n/a MKIII's, n/a DSM's, MX-6's, SE-R's, Fiero's, 2.5RS Iprezas, most late model VW's, maybe a few others...

[Jim96SC2]

Techniqually a "Sports Car" is a class of cars that as small, nimble, and convertable with 2 seats. They usually had a sleek sexy look to them. They don't need to have power (most sports cars I know of that are old school were like 1700lbs and had 150hp).

Modern sports cars are basically anything with power and handling.

[GTR240]

Ryno_S13- first the new Viper lays down 500hp. &nbsp;second if you compare liters/hp look at it this way. &nbsp;if we take a RX7 witch had 250hp (something like that) with 1.6 liters, then the hp/liters would be...156.25hp/liters. &nbsp;now if Dodge were to make the Viper the same hp/liters (it can very easily) then the output from the Viper would be...a mind numbing 1296.875hp. &nbsp;i really dont care what people say...but the bigger the engine is the more power you can get. &nbsp;there are reasons behind why they dont unleash the power of the 10. &nbsp;but take a look at the Twin Turbo from Hennessy and from basic mods it put down 800+hp. &nbsp;and a good drifte can drift with any car. &nbsp;if it caught on in the US like in Japan then youd see Vettes hanging with Silvias.

[GTR240]

i dont think a covertable makes it automatically a sports car. &nbsp;and a sleek and sexy look is also not what the civic is...no way...sedan more or less. &nbsp;

but i think that everything is going to change because people want more from cars than just performance when it comes to cars. &nbsp;look at the vette. &nbsp;even though it handles great and goes fast. &nbsp;i want something that will tear my spine out when i hit the pedal, pop my eyes out when i hit the breaks, makes my organs switch sides when it turns. &nbsp;ride and all that other bullshit i can deal with. &nbsp;as long as it looks good then i dont really need anything else.

[RYNO_s13]

Bigger nuts does not a better squirrel make. If a bigger engine automatically made the car faster then Jaguar makes the fastest cars with a v12. Uh...Lamborghini builds v12's also, I know, but let's try to keep this under a half mil? Comparing an Rx7 to a Viper is not practical. The difference between the rotary engine and a conventional piston engine is too drastic. Rotary technology was the VERY REASON that mazda was able to squeeze every screaming pony out of that car. A feat that cannot be accomplished with a piston engine. And yes, there are reasons why they didn't "unleash the power" of the 10cyl. Big=heavy. With the weight of the car/ distribution of the weight, the thing would be even more unpredictable at speed than it is. Getting more than 450hp(trust me on that one) out of that platform, then getting it RELIABLY to the rear wheels and keeping the car controllable would push the price too high for the guys actually buying them. First ask yourself why many many GT series cars are MR. Weight distribution grasshoppa. Next, look at the demographic that the Viper is actually aimed at. White male, age 45 to 55. As strange as that may seem, who else has the cash? These are the same guys who drove Chevelles with big blowers on them to their senior prom. Now they have the ducats to blow on whatever, but how does Dodge separate them from their wallet? Not with a 700hp+ BEAST that they couldn't keep between the lines off the light.

[AKADriver]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (HippoSleek @ Dec. 04 2002,4:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">How about a corrollary question: For whatever class you put the 240sx in (or the Silvia - your choice), what are its competitors/class mates?</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
The S13 240SX, I'd say competed with:
Toyota Celica GT-S
DSM non-turbo DOHC
Volkswagen Corrado G60
Honda Prelude Si
Ford Mustang 4cyl
GM Camaro/Firebird V6
Dodge Daytona ES
Ford Probe/Mazda MX6 turbo

The S13 Silvia K's would compete with:
Toyota Celica GT-Four/All-Trac Turbo
DSM turbo AWD
GM Camaro/Firebird V8
Ford Mustang V8
Dodge Daytona Shelby
Volkswagen Corrado VR6

[HippoSleek]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RYNO_s13 @ Dec. 04 2002,5:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Bigger nuts does not a better squirrel make.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
0wN3d &nbsp; <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'> &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'> &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':laugh:'>


I gotta go home... I hope this one is still going tomorrow. &nbsp;happy snow ya'll.

Mark - future Porsche demographic

[Kreator]

Well, the camaro is a detuned version of a vette. The only reason it prolly wasn't coming out as a sports car (if it in fact didn't) would be that chevy didn't want competition for the flagship car.

hmmm 2 pages of comparison and shit, and noone defined a sports car yet....

[misnomer]

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. The definition of a sports car is as impossible to pin down as the definition of a comfy toilet seat (there are none of these, btw).

In general, I consider it to be a car specifically purchased for the joy of driving it, with few other considerations (economy, cargo capacity, comfort, etc). Essentially this equates primarily to great handling, and to a slightly lesser extent a potent motor. How often do you really punch the gas vs how often you make a turn, hit a bump, etc?

I consider my 240sx a sports car, others disagree. That's their perogative. Granted, I would love a more potent engine, and a lighter wieght car, but beggers can't be choosers <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'> When I was looking for a car, I was looking for soemthing to get me from point A to point B. Got my first car ('89 240sx), realized point A to point B really shouldn't be a straight line, traded it a year later for a 5spd 92. It's the only car I've ever gotten into and driven just for the sake of driving it. That's what I consider a sports car :-)

[RYNO_s13]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RYNO_s13 @ Dec. 04 2002,12:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What makes a sports car? The point at the end of all the technical drivel about cars most of us will never drive was that regardless of the TECHNICAL definition of a "sports car", ANY car, bought and driven purely for the enjoyment of the experience, is a sports car. That being the case, if we all agree that we bought 240's for enjoyment and love of the car and her potential, then yes, she is a "sports car".</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Whoa, deja vu! See, when I said it no one listened to me either. Kinda like being around my girl. &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sarcasm.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':sarcasm:'> &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sly.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':sly:'>

[GTR240]

ryno- &nbsp;you never specified anything but the power of the Silivia you were talking about. &nbsp;hell, that Silvia is out of your and mine price range as well. &nbsp;and i wasnt using the rotary as a piston vs. rotary (sounds wierd) comparison. &nbsp;i was using the liters of diplacement. &nbsp;would it make you happier if i used the SR? &nbsp;450/2.0 (maybe the 2.2 if stoked soo...204.54) &nbsp;225. &nbsp;reliability was never mentioned in your first topic either. &nbsp;i was just going all by what you stated. &nbsp;if lambo wanted to go with more power with the V12 they could...but your right money is a factor...but hell if they build the McClaren at $1million then i think they could build a Lambo for that. &nbsp;so it depends on what you are trying to get at. &nbsp;

reliability...no a 1200+ hp car is not
heavy...yes the V10 is but when it could make that power would you notice in a stright line?
price...yeah expensive but i bet it is cheaper to buy a Viper with 500hp than to build a race spec Silvia as the one you mentioned.

[AKADriver]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Kreator @ Dec. 04 2002,7:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well, the camaro is a detuned version of a vette. The only reason it prolly wasn't coming out as a sports car (if it in fact didn't) would be that chevy didn't want competition for the flagship car.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
WRONG. &nbsp;The original Camaro was a set of curvy body panels over a Nova chassis, as it was until '81.

Saying a Camaro is a detuned 'vette would be like saying the 240SX is a detuned 300ZX Twin Turbo. &nbsp;It ain't happenin'

[240racer]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (drift freaq @ Dec. 03 2002,10:01)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It had 155hp, pulled .89 G on the skidpad stock . Drag coefficent of .31 and a cg of .29. It had a almost near perfect weight balance.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
What are you refering to when you say a cg of .29 &nbsp;
I would assume the center of gravity (cg to me) is about 20-25" from the ground, but haven't measured it.

[wpayne]

Hmm..., I think it lays more in the design and the intent of the designer. So, not exactly like you need to have perfect handling and 300HP+ but more of can you you have fun driving it? Or is it purely a luxury car made to be comfortable or a car made for taking the kids to school every morning.

Today it's very hard to define because the way to sell cars these days are with performance. If you look at almost any nissan commercial, they show the car going fast and exagerating it's speed. Theres a new blend of luxury with performance.

What do I think about the 240? Yeah, definately, it is a sports car. I think a lot of it is in the looks because the design helps it accentuate it's abilities at it's own level. With the way I interpret it, I think there are a LOT of sports cars out there, just that some are a LOT better than others.