Why American "Go Green" Cars Fail.

[Baka Sama]

http://www.automedia.com/NewCarBuyersGuide2008/photos/2008/Chevrolet/Malibu%20Hybrid/Sedan/2008_Chevy_Malibu_ext_1.jpg

Case in point; The 2008 Chevrolet Malibu Hybrid

Hybrid: $22,000 MRSP, 164hp 4 cyl, 24 city/32 highway mpg

Normal Version: $20,000 MRSP, 169hp 4cyl, 20 city/30 highway mpg



The Smart Fortwo

33 city/41 highway mpg according to 2008 EPA standards. Yeah you give up your dignity as a man just for 33city/41hwy mpg.


Am I crazy or what? Why drive these POS' when in the UK they have these:

Seat Ibiza Ecomotive & Ecolife 1.4HDi
74.3mpg
Volkswagen Polo BlueMotion 1.4HDi
60 mpg
Citroën C3 1.4HDi
56mpg

Thoughts?

[duffman1278]

Ford actually has a car which I believe their going to release in Europe that gets over 40 mpg iirc. Someone sent me the link at my old job from Car and Driver. Didn't look bad either. Still, their hybrids really are pretty lame.

[eastcoastS14]

i dont think its a secret that american car companies pump out turds

[Baka Sama]

Ford actually has a car which I believe their going to release in Europe that gets over 40 mpg iirc. Someone sent me the link at my old job from Car and Driver. Didn't look bad either. Still, their hybrids really are pretty lame.

A car that gets over 40mpg?? Really. I mean that changes everything... :keke:

Toyota and Honda both have hybrids that have been out for years getting over 50mpg including the prius, civic hybrid, and insight

[RiversideS13]

lol 24/32 mpg, a 4 banger accord can do that without the complication of hybrid

[JeremyR]

america is the largest consumer of petrolium based products, most of our political leaders (bush) have huge investments in oil. of course america is not going to have cars with outstanding fuel economy. In the end of it all, it boils down to money. after all, america is a capitalist country. i dont care how much everyone wants to "go green" its just another marketing campaign. VW already has cars in the usdm market, why not release a 60+ mile car here? i'm sure it would sell, outstandingly. but the powers at be will never let it happen. good mileage? who cares. good for the enviroment? who cares. america is ran by oil companies. gas could be 10 dollars a gallon and people would STILL buy it. everyone complains about gas prices, but no body does anything about it. maybe if everyone in the country did not operate there cars, or not buy gas (and obviously not try and stock pile the day before) for a week, or a month, or two months, it might, MIGHT have an effect. but that will never happen. wow what a rant, sorry guys!

[mrmephistopheles]

My beef is that they're using the 'Green' movement to cash in on stupid consumers.

Case in point: GMC has been airing TONS of ads for the Hybrid GMC Yukon, but they're making them in such limited numbers, it's OBVIOUS that they're just using it for PR purposes only. Seriously, I think they've made enough for each dealer to get ONE, and most are already pre-ordered.

[OptionZero]

People forget that the Prius doesn't just have hybrid engine tech in it's favor, it has small, slippery tires, light weight, and a slippery body design for less drag.

Just slapping an electric motor in a regular, heavy sedan or suv is stupid, the gains aren't worth the price or trouble.

[godzillarb]

Green cars are for Hollywood fags. If you want good fuel economy, get a diesel.

I have a 2001 Jetta TDI (diesel) that gets 45mpg average. It also has around 200whp and 350ft/lbs. I drive like an ass, but people have gotten up to 60mpg with these cars.


Edit: Lol at the neg rep form the people who live in Hollywood. Thanks for proving my point :)

[ronmcdon]

Ford actually has a car which I believe their going to release in Europe that gets over 40 mpg iirc. Someone sent me the link at my old job from Car and Driver. Didn't look bad either. Still, their hybrids really are pretty lame.

blame carb for being such pita against turbodiesel technology. it's been the staple in europe for the longest time. but apparently, that is just not good enough for California.

[raz0rbladez909]

fuck CARB :fawk2:

[Andrew Bohan]

i wanna see a drift car sponsored by carb.

that'd be DOPE

[samvia]

Yeah you give up your dignity as a man just for 33city/41hwy mpg.

Am I crazy or what? Why drive these POS' when in the UK they have these:

Seat Ibiza Ecomotive & Ecolife 1.4HDi
74.3mpg
Volkswagen Polo BlueMotion 1.4HDi
60 mpg
Citroën C3 1.4HDi
56mpg

Thoughts?

If you buy one of those Shitroen C3's you have not only already given up any male dignity you ever had, you've also surrendered any common sense you may have once had. Horrible egg-shaped weird looking bastard of a car, and being French they break daily.

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/images/front_picture_library_UK/dir_49/car_photo_24946_7.jpg

Other good thing about the small-capacity TD's here is the price of the UK's annual road tax for them - some of them are only around $70 a year, my bmw/s13 are $400 each. The government have just introduced new price brackets too, so some new SUV's (X5, Cayenne etc) will be paying around $2000 a year while that VW Polo will cost $0.

Totally right about the marketing of the "hybrids", been doing a little on "greenwashing" in a class recently.

Edit: I'd much rather be driving one of your hybrid Chevy's with your gas prices than the crap we get here, I hate small euroboxes! Not sure what you guys are paying for gas just now, but for a litre we're around $2.20 for unleaded and $2.50+ for diesel at the moment, partly thanks to the only refinery in Scotland shutting down for strike action over pension schemes. There's plenty of fuel, it's the retarded general public that panic buy on mass that mess it all up.

[jskateborders]

American cars are gas guzzlers. I dont know wtf is wrong with us.
For instance
my old ka = maybe 20 mpg city/highway. slow as balls
my sr = last fill up yeilded 33mpg city/highway. I eat cobras
Find me another american car (other than new corvettes) with close to the same gas milage that is even close to that fast. You wont, its bs. I am willing to make a bet that every jdm car gets way better gas milage, and makes more power than its american counterpart.

[KA24DESOneThree]

1989 Honda CRX HF- 41mpg city, 50mpg highway according to new EPA, 50/56 according to window sticker

2007 Toyota Prius- 48mpg city, 45mpg highway according to new EPA, 60/51 according to window sticker.

The modern cars would get better gas mileage with more careful airflow management and by ignoring certain federal regulations.

[98s14inaz]

American cars are gas guzzlers. I dont know wtf is wrong with us.
For instance
my old ka = maybe 20 mpg city/highway. slow as balls
my sr = last fill up yeilded 33mpg city/highway. I eat cobras
Find me another american car (other than new corvettes) with close to the same gas milage that is even close to that fast. You wont, its bs. I am willing to make a bet that every jdm car gets way better gas milage, and makes more power than its american counterpart.

That's the truth. When I went ka-t on my previous s14 my gas mileage was awesome 30mpg+ and that was with a pig rich jwt tune (to4e/t3, 50#, z32mafs)...cobra/vette killer at 1bar. I swear they intentionally rig our cars to suck.

Honestly I don't care what I drive daily as long as I have something nice to drive on weekends and holidays. I'd rock one of those French pos's daily just so I don't ruin my nice car.

[S14DB]

Reports I have seen that Smart car gets shit gas millage in real world conditions.

I would rather have a Versa CVT with it's 36 mpg HW. If you could find one a Golf TDI with it's 46mpg. If you wanted a pansy car the Honda Civic Hybrid gets 50mpg hw.

The Altima 4cyl gas gets 31mpg hw which is as almost as good as that hybrid.

[s14_legend]

yup jdm is the way to go...

[Dutchmalmiss]

Ah a lot of people don't realize that our cars are getting heavy as FUCK! Look at all the available features that can be standard in a new car today: 17"+ wheels, traction control, front/side airbags (even more in some models), etc. Point is, if we were just better drivers from the get go, most of us wouldn't need all that bull shit which can weigh up to almost 500+ pounds and probably even more because of the electronics/wiring running those systems.

Here's a great example: (facts/specs from autos.msn.com)
92-95 Honda Civic hatch
- While it lacks features to be a manly car, the CX with less weight (2108 w/ 5-spd) gives it an easy 40/45 mpg

06-current Honda Civic coupe/sedan
- While over ten years later they've managed to make a single-cam 1.8 (sans v-tec) do 140hp with developed engineering, they can only get 30/40 mpg even with a 5-spd automatic (excluding hybrid). Also because of the new modern safety and convenience features, it gained 485 pounds as a DX coupe (and 593 as an EX coupe) and 520 pounds as a DX sedan (and 632 as an EX sedan).

While Honda claims to have the greenest cars on the road today, they can at least shed a few pounds. But NOOOoOO, Americans want the traction control, ABS, extra sound deadening, added speakers, sunroof, yada yada

Nissan is one of the few to be LOSING the pounds. I forgot the thread, but exitspeed mentioned that the next gen Z was going to be 300 pounds lighter.

And another thing, why own an off-road type of vehicle if you're never taking it off-road?

[sonomadrifter]

Great topic, I am currently writing a paper and its interesting to see these numbers on paper on how the U.S is looking world wide. Although we own only 30% of the over 700 million cars world wide, we are responsible for over half of the greenhouse gas emissions produced and a giant among the petrolium consumers (GM accounts for 1/3 of total GHG).I did know some of these diesels were getting that milage but not with those hp/torque numbers, thats amazing!

What bothers me more, as jskateboarders said, is the sr effiecincy vs ka and other swaps/ mods that are doing good. Shouldnt the government be encouraging these swaps. lol

I've done some research but there is not real answer on the fuel of the future, what direction do you think this is going to take? Gas just more efficent, diesel, solar, hydrogen, water, electric...? Its obvious that chevys design here is not going to do the job long term.

[godzillarb]

Green cars are for Hollywood fags. If you want good fuel economy, get a diesel.

I have a 2001 Jetta TDI (diesel) that gets 45mpg average. It also has around 200whp and 350ft/lbs. I drive like an ass, but people have gotten up to 60mpg with these cars.


your an idiot

Hey big-shot, you took a massive 300 point dump on my rep so please explain. By the way, it's "you're" not "your." I don't own an idiot.

Hybrid cars cost more and then their batteries wear out in a couple years. It's very hard to actually make them pay for themselves with fuel savings, especially if you would have went diesel instead. Not only that, you just created more pollution and waste with your dead batteries. Good job!

The only real reason to go with a Hybrid is you are trying to have a lower CARB footprint, like Al Gore and his fucking private jet.

Plus, these new hybrid cars look like ass. I'd take an MK4 Jetta any day over one of these new POS cars. At least the Mk4 has some real European style.

[WanganRunner]

flock hybrids, if I wanted to save gas I'd drive a base EG VX hatch 5spd or something.


My Ruckus gets 120mpg though, that's fine for me. I commute by subway too, which helps.

[exitspeed]

How can you compare a Malibu Hybrid with a Smart or Seat? They aren't even in the same segment of vehicles.

It's funny hearing Americans complain that we don't have uber MPG hybrid vehicles over here.

Maybe instead of complaining you should have bought a Insight when they were still sold. Yea, 60MPG +! Oh wait, hardly anyone did. But people will still bitch that we don't have fuel efficient cars here in America.

Again though, please compare like cars. Because the ones you listed are WEAK compared to America's Insight...

[Dutchmalmiss]

^^ Yes, please look. There ARE gas efficient cars here in the US. It's just that most people don't want to sacrifice all the luxuries and cargo/passenger room to save the gas.

It's called gas efficiency people, how do you expect to do that in a fully loaded car/suv with seating for 5+??? "Hybrid SUV" is such an oxymoron.

[BustedS13]

Green cars are for Hollywood fags. If you want good fuel economy, get a diesel.

http://www.d2infinity.com/images/respekKnuckles.jpg

[Yuri]

Since none ofmy cars are roadworthy right now (long story, maybe not, they're just all broken), I've been daily driving my roomate's BMW 850i.

4100lbs, V12 6-speed, 10mpg.

yeah.

Pulls like a freight train though.

Only car I've driven that you can see the gas gauge move under hard acceleration.

[ellisonrox]

Here's a great example: (facts/specs from autos.msn.com)
92-95 Honda Civic hatch
- While it lacks features to be a manly car, the CX with less weight (2108 w/ 5-spd) gives it an easy 40/45 mpg

06-current Honda Civic coupe/sedan
- While over ten years later they've managed to make a single-cam 1.8 (sans v-tec) do 140hp with developed engineering, they can only get 30/40 mpg even with a 5-spd automatic (excluding hybrid). Also because of the new modern safety and convenience features, it gained 485 pounds as a DX coupe (and 593 as an EX coupe) and 520 pounds as a DX sedan (and 632 as an EX sedan).


isn't it kind of unfair to compare a two door hatch with sedans?

[Dutchmalmiss]

isn't it kind of unfair to compare a two door hatch with sedans?

Ok fine haha. The 92-95 DX COUPE weighed 2231lbs, about 120 more than the CX hatch of the same year. That brings another point: The Fit. While now being US entry-level Honda still weighs 2432. That's just 100lbs less than the Civic coupe of the same year, and BARELY gets better city mileage at 33, but worse highway mileage at 38 compared to the civic's 30/40 rating

What I was trying to stress was that while Honda still succeeds in having cars that are bigger and more luxurious than Hondas before AND still maintaining high MPG, they can do better. Weight savings is where it's at.

[BustedS13]

tiny cars are junk
buy a stickshift 4banger of any size/variety and shut up

[exitspeed]

And don't forget GM's hybrids are considered mild hybrids. Not full blwon hybrids.

Also, GM is going to be the first to the market with an all electric car ie the Volt. You can't complain after that.

[CKAMC]

everyone is missing the main point

buy a pinto

swap in a turbo diesel motor

run it off used oil/grease

big black approved

[DUFFM4N]

Only car I've driven that you can see the gas gauge move under hard acceleration.

i can say the same about my dad's 95 impala SS

[Dutchmalmiss]

i can say the same about my dad's 95 impala SS

Same goes for my friend's BUILT to hell 13b-t FC. Probably get 8mpg if he's lucky hahah.

[Baka Sama]

How can you compare a Malibu Hybrid with a Smart or Seat? They aren't even in the same segment of vehicles.

It's funny hearing Americans complain that we don't have uber MPG hybrid vehicles over here.

Maybe instead of complaining you should have bought a Insight when they were still sold. Yea, 60MPG +! Oh wait, hardly anyone did. But people will still bitch that we don't have fuel efficient cars here in America.

Again though, please compare like cars. Because the ones you listed are WEAK compared to America's Insight...

Im not comparing a Malibu and a Smart. Im showing you two examples of American cars made to be more fuel effiecient and how much they suck. The Malibu gets a big 2 extra mpg over the normal version and with all that talk Daimler Chryslers Smart is weak when you think about how slow and impractical it is.

The insight is a Japanese car not an American one and so is the prius. Yeah the insight gets 60+ mpg and there are people doing "mods" to it getting over 70mpg. But look at the car. It seats 2 VERY snuggly and is as slow as a miata.

There is nothing that America is producing that can compare to UKs diesels or Japanese hybrids that are pumping out 50+ mpg and can seat 4 people. These cars arnt suppose to be the "family" car or replace the American sports car. Theyre made to seat 4 people and get them from A to B using as less fuel as possible.

Even the sub compacts GM have suck. Example; 2008 Chevy Aveo.

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2007/10/11/066613.1-lg.jpg

2008 Chevrolet Aveo LS 4-Door. Gas Mileage: 24 mpg city / 34 mpg highway. Engine: 4 Cylinder, 1.6 Liter, 103 HP.

Give me a break. Thats the best America can do in a SUB compact? We have the technology to make clean burning diesels or hybrids that actually work like the prius. The question is why arnt we?

[WanganRunner]

Again though, please compare like cars. Because the ones you listed are WEAK compared to America's Insight...

The insight was a great car in all respects. Honda did it the right way the first time and people still insisted on wanting it the wrong way. Fuck people.

Yeah, the Volt is indeed going to change things. All-electric cars with real range and capabilities are the future and there's no denying it, there are just too many benefits to efficiency.

(I know the Volt isn't all-electric, but it's main selling point is to be able to handle all normal commute-range duties without resorting to any gas power. The IC engine is really only for long drives. Speaking of long drives, where the hell are our electric TGVs???)

[Baka Sama]

Edit: I'd much rather be driving one of your hybrid Chevy's with your gas prices than the crap we get here, I hate small euroboxes! Not sure what you guys are paying for gas just now, but for a litre we're around $2.20 for unleaded and $2.50+ for diesel at the moment, partly thanks to the only refinery in Scotland shutting down for strike action over pension schemes. There's plenty of fuel, it's the retarded general public that panic buy on mass that mess it all up.


We're paying about 3.50 for unleaded which is about 2.23 EUR. Im not sure if your currency is about the same. So no, you wouldnt want to be paying almost the same for gas and getting half the fuel economy.

[exitspeed]

Im not comparing a Malibu and a Smart. Im showing you two examples of American cars made to be more fuel effiecient and how much they suck. The Malibu gets a big 2 extra mpg over the normal version and with all that talk Daimler Chryslers Smart is weak when you think about how slow and impractical it is.

The insight is a Japanese car not an American one and so is the prius. Yeah the insight gets 60+ mpg and there are people doing "mods" to it getting over 70mpg. But look at the car. It seats 2 VERY snuggly and is as slow as a miata.

There is nothing that America is producing that can compare to UKs diesels or Japanese hybrids that are pumping out 50+ mpg and can seat 4 people. These cars arnt suppose to be the "family" car or replace the American sports car. Theyre made to seat 4 people and get them from A to B using as less fuel as possible.

Even the sub compacts GM have suck. Example; 2008 Chevy Aveo.

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2007/10/11/066613.1-lg.jpg

2008 Chevrolet Aveo LS 4-Door. Gas Mileage: 24 mpg city / 34 mpg highway. Engine: 4 Cylinder, 1.6 Liter, 103 HP.

Give me a break. Thats the best America can do in a SUB compact? We have the technology to make clean burning diesels or hybrids that actually work like the prius. The question is why arnt we?

I thought you were compring cars sold in America vs over seas. I'm aware Honda and Toyota aren't American companies.

But like I sad, GM's hybrids are considered MILD hybrids. They are not a full blown hybrid like the Prius and Insight are. Lutz said they had the technology to make a Prius type vehicle when the Prius came out and they didn't jump on the opportunity. And he realizes that was a mistake. THIS is why he is so adement about getting the Volt to the market before anyone else has similar technology. That car will be huge. HUGE.

And the reason we don't see more small fuel efficient cars here in America is because Americans are poor consumers and still want to drive big POS SUV's and trucks. People in other contries don't drive full size pick-ups to and from work. That is unless they are in construction. Until our mindset changes and start BUYING the super fuel efficient cars that are sold here, the manufacturers aren't going to build more.

[HyperTek]

i think the reason these cars dont fly in the us is because EVERYONE IS AFRAID OF THE IMAGE.

just about everyone in this thread has said "oh but that car gives up your manhood".

Flashy cars are what we want.. unfortinutly those flashy cars drink gas.. and the market perfers big cars. Just the other day, there was a Smart car parked outside our shop and i called my mom out to check it out, she thought it was cute, but she said she wouldnt want one because its too small... and with every other car out here being big, you kinda have the concious idea that if you where ever invovled in an accident against a big car, that you would loose.

sucks. In europe, there are alot of small cars and scooters. Since in America, most of the cars are large to begin with, we just have the general idea that we have to stick with big cars.

Right now dam one of those cars with great mpg is looking pretty attractive to me. Drive it anywhere and everywhere and not worry about people stealing it etc. I got my FC rx7 now which doesnt get great millage, and i kind of dont really wanna drive it anywhere right now due to cost of gas... lol

dam so the EG HF or whatevers get good mpg huh... or the crx.. dam i want one now lol
but then id have to worry about some asshole wanting to steal it lol

[samvia]

We're paying about 3.50 for unleaded which is about 2.23 EUR. Im not sure if your currency is about the same. So no, you wouldnt want to be paying almost the same for gas and getting half the fuel economy.

Sorry dude, I meant in litres... unleaded is around $8.30 a U.S. gallon in my area atm. My current daily german tank does an average of 16-18mpg HW and town, it stings a little...but it's better than driving some euro-hatch nonsense. :)

i guess it's just easier to market cars in the US with bigger engines, hence the generally worse gas mileage. Say for example those Scion tc things, I know it's technically Japanese but where its sold in the US with a 2.4l, an equivalent small coupe over here would more than likely be a 1.8 or 2.0l with similar power.

[sijia10358]

im waiting for the new Cadillac Escalade Hybrid

[exitspeed]

^
Exactly my point.

[steve shadows]

Pulls like a freight train though.

Only car I've driven that you can see the gas gauge move under hard acceleration.

My race does after a little while. :keke:


and that's a 2 liter. Lots of 91 octane to make all that power :keke:

[T00ch]

has anyone one seen the documentry who killed the electric car?? lol im watching it in my marketing class..seems like that goes well with all this

[Andrew Bohan]

i don't americans will be happy til they can get an electric hummer that goes a million miles on its first charge, and has a fake engine sound like a ricer fake bov sound

[fromxtor]

^^ reminds me of that H1 putting out 600hp/2000lbs tq(w/ jet turbines and super capacitor batteries)m now thats what I call efficient.

I feel kind goofy driving my wife's '05 rolla to work everyday, when I have a Titan in the driveway. But damn do I feel good getting away w/ $35 for a full tank. :D

[Andrew Bohan]

it cost me 61 bucks to fill up my camry last time


and today i saw 4.01's everywhere for regular

[Matej]

My dad used to own some kind of an '80s Renault turbo diesel hatchback. It was a 5-speed, rwd, and got over 60mpg.

[exitspeed]

it cost me 61 bucks to fill up my camry last time


and today i saw 4.01's everywhere for regular

Yep, cost me $63 to fill up my Camry. Sucks. :2f2f:

[blacklable245]

Pimp My Ride back in the day put a turbo diesel in some old school impalla and made a crap load of power and still got over 30MPG.....AND to make your own Biodiesel motor is cheaper than buying a new hybrid.

[RiversideS13]

Ah a lot of people don't realize that our cars are getting heavy as FUCK! Look at all the available features that can be standard in a new car today: 17"+ wheels, traction control, front/side airbags (even more in some models), etc. Point is, if we were just better drivers from the get go, most of us wouldn't need all that bull shit which can weigh up to almost 500+ pounds and probably even more because of the electronics/wiring running those systems.

Here's a great example: (facts/specs from autos.msn.com)
92-95 Honda Civic hatch
- While it lacks features to be a manly car, the CX with less weight (2108 w/ 5-spd) gives it an easy 40/45 mpg

06-current Honda Civic coupe/sedan
- While over ten years later they've managed to make a single-cam 1.8 (sans v-tec) do 140hp with developed engineering, they can only get 30/40 mpg even with a 5-spd automatic (excluding hybrid). Also because of the new modern safety and convenience features, it gained 485 pounds as a DX coupe (and 593 as an EX coupe) and 520 pounds as a DX sedan (and 632 as an EX sedan).

While Honda claims to have the greenest cars on the road today, they can at least shed a few pounds. But NOOOoOO, Americans want the traction control, ABS, extra sound deadening, added speakers, sunroof, yada yada

Nissan is one of the few to be LOSING the pounds. I forgot the thread, but exitspeed mentioned that the next gen Z was going to be 300 pounds lighter.

And another thing, why own an off-road type of vehicle if you're never taking it off-road?

i think the number is over estimated. i had a 92 civic hatch cx bone stock before, it only gets 35mpg and it was very painful to drive it because the 75hp. i sold the car within a month.

[exitspeed]

^
It's going to take $6/gallon prices for people to stop buying SUV's and trucks.

[Andrew Bohan]

when i get my bonus, i will say "thank you, but i'm still paying attention, and you're still an idiot.

[blacklable245]

Eventually the price is gonna effect our "tuner world", if it already hasnt. A lot of people have said they get +25mpg with a t3/t4 and other crap done to their cars. Well what happens when gas prices go up and you still have to pay 60+ bucks to get 12 gallons of 93 octane. My boss says that a lot of pro drag racers who he races with can barely keep their cars on the strip due to the cost of 100+ octane fuel, and for a lot of new comers to the sport, its a lot of money to fork out, and sometimes sport even fall out of the sport, or go bankrupt. It sad to see that money makes the world go around.. :(

[KA24DESOneThree]

By the way, it's almost literally impossible to find a CRX HF for sale that hasn't been modded by ricers. I've been looking.

You want a stock one or you lose the mileage quickly.

[Andrew Bohan]

thanks for calling me an idiot-ericcastro

are you the one who gave me my check?

then i'm not talking about you

[ronmcdon]

i think the number is over estimated. i had a 92 civic hatch cx bone stock before, it only gets 35mpg and it was very painful to drive it because the 75hp. i sold the car within a month.

imho, the crx si, or the ef si hatch is the best of all compromises. my old 89 crx si had a very reasonable 100 hp or so, which was sufficient for he 2,200 lb weight of the car. suspension is well sorted out in stock trim. I purchased it for $1,600 a few yrs ago. overall i got anywhere from 30-36mpg combined, and thats with thrashing the car around hard. has lots of room too, but I sold it b/c the repair bills were beginning to get expensive.

but seriously, i think if you're frugal minded, its more sensible to get an old beater that gets good mileage vs. even a $15k Honda Fit, or a $23k Civic Hybrid. , assuming cost is the main criterion here. When deciding a beater, you just have to be honest with yourself. Is it worth the drudgery to save another 3-5mpg driving something you absolutely hate with a CX model? Can't speak for anyone else, but I would say no. I think the EF Si's are the best deal out there.

[KA-T_240]

I am selling my jeep. 11.3mpg FTL! Now to find a early 90s nissan truck for the winter.

Shit, I got 30mph on the highway in my 240 driving in the upper 80's. With hills, no cruise control and doing WOT pulls to 120+ to keep awake.

[wrapmeup2005]

All of American cars suck, for some reason Americans sit in the car and go, "Oh wow, I love how everything is plastic and so cheap feeling, I think I will buy 3." America won't let any of the good cars in from Europe and Japan because then the politicians won't make any money and the "American" car dealers won't be able to pay their (Canadian and Mexican) workers. Its basically the politicians and money, you think they care? FUCK NO

[Matej]

My 240 gets over 30mpg. :)

[an_orange_s2k]

american cars suck and are crap. thats why they fail.

[ESmorz]

I can hit 51 mpg in my Civic Hybrid...

[exitspeed]

All of American cars suck, for some reason Americans sit in the car and go, "Oh wow, I love how everything is plastic and so cheap feeling, I think I will buy 3." America won't let any of the good cars in from Europe and Japan because then the politicians won't make any money and the "American" car dealers won't be able to pay their (Canadian and Mexican) workers. Its basically the politicians and money, you think they care? FUCK NO

american cars suck and are crap. thats why they fail.

Te two of you haven't sat in a new Malibu, CTS, and most of the new Saturn line-ups have you?

The new CTS's interior IMO is better then any MB or BMW I've been in.

[02BRB20]

^hahaha

the new malibu is ugly as sin

[flip3d]

The reason why UK has awesome milage is because those cars you mentioned are all diesel. American auto makers just cant grasp the idea of an efficient clean burning diesel CAR. Or maybe they dont want to spend the money on R&D to reduce the emissions of a small diesel engine. Who knows?

[JohnJohn86]

Gas is way cheaper in the US than other part of the world. Stop complaining and get a V8 while you can.

[sldbyuramg]

not only PR perposes but tax expemptions... if any company goes green they get tax breaks

My beef is that they're using the 'Green' movement to cash in on stupid consumers.

Case in point: GMC has been airing TONS of ads for the Hybrid GMC Yukon, but they're making them in such limited numbers, it's OBVIOUS that they're just using it for PR purposes only. Seriously, I think they've made enough for each dealer to get ONE, and most are already pre-ordered.

[The ROMAN]

So, regarding the CRX thing, lets figure out how to take a newer honda and de-emission it. Air-bags too.

I'm really ready to get a scooter, but here in NJ everyone tells me I'll get killed...

[SexPanda]

the hybrids american car companies make arent really hybrids like people think of. Theyre more like the lexus hybrid. the electric motor creates alot of low end torque while the gas engine picks up the higher speed shit. Its different than the prius. The prius is a MPG hybrid. They have small engines and rely on the electric motor more for the main power than anything, the gas engine basically charges it.

basically, american hybrid=same mpg, slightly better performance.

Hybrid like Prius=Great MPG, 0-60 in 15 seconds.

and if anyone has already said this, sorry im lazy so i didnt read all 3 pages.

oh yeah. BMW 120D in Europe. 2.0L diesel, 170hp, 50+mpg... and it looks good. say that about a prius.

[exitspeed]

^
They are known as mild hybrids.

[KA24DESOneThree]

The problem with hybrids that use regenerative braking to charge the batteries is that their highway gas mileage isn't as good as it should be.

The Prius gets insane mileage around town, but pays for it with lackluster acceleration, susceptibility to gusts, and only "good" mileage on the interstate.

We honestly don't need passenger side mirrors. We don't need ABS or traction control. If we were allowed to make these choices ourselves (and many of us here do), we could increase gas mileage easily.