S13 Roll Cage - Whats ideal...

[AznDrftr.]

Okay, was tryin to search what would be an ideal set up for a roll cage for my coupe. So just was wondering, what would be good as far points. The car is mainly for driftin, and is kinda my dd until i get one....

Should I get a direct bolt on one, or weld it in? Also, why i want one, is to keep the car sturdy, basically.

Thanks for the info.

[racepar1]

Bolt in cages are stupid! Nothing but glorified chasis braces. If you are going to spend your money on something that is really a safety item then you should at least install it correctly. In my opinion almost any pre-fabbed cage is lame. Every bolt/weld in pre-fabbed cage that I have seen for 240's attaches to the rear wheelwells. It SHOULD mount to the rear strut towers or above the rear subframe mounting points. Not everyone is capable of fabbing a cage themselves and almost none of us can afford to pay someone else to do it, so you may HAVE to buy a pre-fabbed unit. If that is your case then at least weld it in properly with mounting plates/pedestals as at least then it is an actual safety item, a somewhat inferior safety item, but at least it will be functional and you will be safe.

[Bushido]

if your main concern is rigidity, i see nothing wrong with a bolt in cage.

[AznDrftr.]

Yea, thanks, for that info. i planned to weld in my roll cage, but just wanted to make sure if that would be good as well.

So, all the pre-fabbed ones, attaches to the wheelwells? none of them mount to the strut towers?

What are some good companies to get a nice prefabbed one? I want to make sure that the cage does its justice so any more useful info is great.

Thanks man, for that. rep.

[AznDrftr.]

if your main concern is rigidity, i see nothing wrong with a bolt in cage.

Well, much or more less thats a concern as well. but to pinpoint all ideal concerns, i could just weld it in anyway right?

[racepar1]

Just weld it in, you'll be better off and safer. Anyone who is buying a cage just as a chasis brace really doesn't need one in the first place.

[AznDrftr.]

^of course, doesnt seem right anyway, in that case, i'll just keep the strut bars i got ya know lol.

[hellbilly1342]

if bolt in prefabbed cages are so lame and unsafe by your standards, then why are the Cusco bolt in cages pemitted by D1, and Autopower cages permitted by SCCA and many other racing sanctions in america? if installed correctly they are just as safe and even safer then most weld in cages that i have seen posted in this site. these bolt in cages are built to these sanctions strict specifications, where as the weld in cages have to be inspected and pass the inspections before you can use them on a competition track race, some pass and some don't having to be torn down and rebuilt again.

[AznDrftr.]

wtf? i never said they were lame. why you think i asked for which is ideal lol. read the post man.

I just figured it be in favor of a weld in one thats all.

Just lookin for some better options that is all.

thanks for your input, you have some valid points.....i guess.

[racepar1]

if bolt in prefabbed cages are so lame and unsafe by your standards, then why are the Cusco bolt in cages pemitted by D1, and Autopower cages permitted by SCCA and many other racing sanctions in america? if installed correctly they are just as safe and even safer then most weld in cages that i have seen posted in this site. these bolt in cages are built to these sanctions strict specifications, where as the weld in cages have to be inspected and pass the inspections before you can use them on a competition track race, some pass and some don't having to be torn down and rebuilt again.

Any cage that is bolted in is not installed correctly, PERIOD. I don't care what racing organization allows it. If you read the SCCA GCR's (general competition rules) you will find that the cages must be welded in. I never said there was no improvement in safety at all, I'm just saying if the cage is supposed to keep you safe then why not install it properly? What custom weld in cages have you seen? And do you really think that you are actually qualified to judge the safety of something just by looking at a picture? I seriously doubt it!

[hellbilly1342]

Any cage that is bolted in is not installed correctly, PERIOD. I don't care what racing organization allows it. If you read the SCCA GCR's (general competition rules) you will find that the cages must be welded in. I never said there was no improvement in safety at all, I'm just saying if the cage is supposed to keep you safe then why not install it properly? What custom weld in cages have you seen? And do you really think that you are actually qualified to judge the safety of something just by looking at a picture? I seriously doubt it!

i have read the rules and no where in the roll cage section does it mention that the cage HAS to be welded to the mounting points of the vehicle. it mentions both bolt in cages mounting requirements of the plates and weld in cage mounting plate requirements. you need to go back and read the rules yourself.

1. The cage need not be removable. It shall be bolted and/or welded to the car.
2. It shall attach to the car at no more than eight (8) points, consisting of the basic cage with six (6) points and two optional braces.
3. The forward part of the cage shall be mounted to the floor of the vehicle. In addition, if the two optional braces referred to in item 2, above are utilized they shall be mounted, one on either side, from the forward section of the cage to the firewall or front fender wells (see figure 16). No braces shall pass through the front firewall.
4. Rollcage gussets shall be no thicker than .125". A maximum of two gussets per rollcage joint are allowed.
B. Removable roll cages and braces shall be very carefully designed and constructed to be at least as strong as a permanent installation. If one tube fits inside another tube to facilitate removal, the removable portion shall fit tightly and shall bottom by design and at least two (2) bolts shall be used to secure each such joint. The telescope section shall be at least eight (8) inches in length except forthe door bars which shall be a minimum of four (4) inches in length. Minimum bolt diameter is 3/8 inches.
H. Mounting Plates:
1. Each mounting plate shall be at least .080 thick if welded and 3/16" thick (with appropriate backing plates) if bolted. There shall be a minimum of three (3) bolts per mounting plate if bolted.
2. Each mounting plate shall not be greater than 100 square inches and shall be no greater than twelve (12) inches or less than two (2) inches on a side.
3. Whenever possible, mounting plates shall extend onto a vertical section of the structure (such as a rocker box).
4. The mounting plate may be multi-angled but must not exceed these dimensions in a flat plane.
5. Any number of tubes may attach to the plate or each other.
D. Mounting Plates:
The thickness of mounting plates bolted to the structure of the car shall not be less than the thickness of the roll hoop or brace that they attach and shall be backed-up with a plate of equal dimensions on the opposite side of the panel, with the plates through-bolted together. A minimum of three (3) bolts per mounting plate is required for bolted mounting plates. All hardware (bolts) shall be Grade 5 or better with 5/16" diameter minimum. Mounting plates welded to the structure of the car shall not be less than .080" thick. Whenever possible the mounting plates should extend onto a vertical section of the structure (such as door plates)
F. Mounting Plates:
1. Bolt In cages.
The thickness of mounting plates bolted to the structure of the car shall not be less than the thickness of the roll hoop or brace that they attach and shall be backed-up with a plate of equal dimensions on the opposite side of the panel, with the plates through-bolted together. A minimum of three (3) bolts per mounting plate is required for bolted mounting plates. All hardware (bolts) shall be Grade 5 or better with 5/16" diameter minimum.
2. Welded in cages.
Mounting plates welded to the structure of the car shall not be less than .080" thick. Whenever possible the mounting plates should extend onto a vertical section of the structure (such as door pillar).

[hellbilly1342]

wtf? i never said they were lame. why you think i asked for which is ideal lol. read the post man.

I just figured it be in favor of a weld in one thats all.

Just lookin for some better options that is all.

thanks for your input, you have some valid points.....i guess.

i know you never said bolt in cages were lame, was talking about the one's that did. i did read the post and every comment on your post

[hellbilly1342]

and some cages i have seen on this site were kinked at the bends from using an incorrect tubing bender that pinched the tubing. there are several very well designed and built cages in here too. each to there own opinions though about whether a bolt in cage is good enough for actual racing.

[Marcus]

im pretty sure the 6 point cusco/safety 21 non-passenger doesnt bolt to the wheel wells. maybe wrong though. maybe its only s14s

[hellbilly1342]

the cusco does bolt to the wheel wells. my brother has one in his corolla. and that's the same cage team orange uses in there cars in d1

[s13silvia123]

i have a costume 8-point roll cage. i'll take some pics for you so you'll get some ideas. tomorrow morning since my mornings are boring

the bars in the rear is welded above the rear sub frame. just like what Racpar1 said

[Flybert]

Don't listen to racepar1. He knows nothing about drifting and he bases everything he knows off of other types of racing. For drifting, bolt in cages are perfectly fine. I've seen multiple cars roll while drifting, some with cages and some without. All the drivers were fine because either they were going really slow when it rolled or they had some kind of cage. I've seen cusco/safety21 cages hold up and I've seen fancy pants custom cages hold up. Drifting isn't high speed racing so the safety requirements really don't need to be as strict. Think about what tracks you will be drifting on. There's no way you could flip at Mineral Wells and there's nothing there to hit if you do. What other tracks are in texas that people drift at? I know I've seen one real road course in texas that people drift on but I haven't heard of anyone flipping there.

Here is the worst rollover drift crash I've ever seen. The guy rolled once in to a hill. The guy made it out fine. He had a cusco cage from what I remember.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVK9h15opF8

If you have the money to throw down on a nice custom cage, go for it because it has other benefits in terms of structural rigidity but if you are low on funds and just want to get the job done, get a bolt-in.

[brokeAs240sx]

Every bolt/weld in pre-fabbed cage that I have seen for 240's attaches to the rear wheelwells.

There's one pre-fabbed/made to order roll bar that attaches to the rear strut tower/vert strut box/bar area (only for s13 convertibles though) available @ FRSport :P.

Also, to further support Flybert's post, here is Zilvia's own Brian's personal account of the success of cusco cages: http://www.zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=162581

And for the lazy, here is the picture:
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f102/nenhenry/zasb2/Untitled-224.jpg

That being said, obviously, the ideal situation would be to have a daily driver & a separate track-only car w/ a full weld-in cage. However, I'm sure most people on zilvia can't afford that, or cannot justify spending that much money for something such as that.

To Azndriftr - what kind of events are you planning on attending (not hoping, but realistically attending). If it is just drift day, parking lot style events, etc. The majority of people do not run cages or roll bars of any sort because 1) not required & 2) flat surface = can't roll over, at least not easily, hence no requirement. Unless you run a 240sx convertible, I don't see a point in running a roll cage and compromising daily driving ability.

Even @ HTM (Local track used for grip & drift - lower speed compared to regular road courses - I was there for grip), most of the guys running the drift sessions did not have roll bars... of course, that's a personal call - I'd run a roll bar there (I actually do, but I'm required to since I have a vert).

[Flybert]

Yeah, I was there to see that car roll. Roof smashed in all the way to the cage and stopped. I have a cusco in my car and I trust it for the type of driving I do. I like that it's lightweight and removable as well. If I beat up this chassis too much, I'll switch to another and take the cage with me.

[AznDrftr.]

^thanks a lot guys for all the input, very well put and well mannered.

To brokeAs240sx - no hopin here, i'll be attending basically, drift 101 days, our daily grinds, which generally consist of big parkin lots. Maybe some actual courses, pretty tight corners and what not.

I thought a bolt in one, in case i do switch out, which in fact i think im going to get. I do also have a harness as well, 4 point, which should i just get a harness bar? All in all, i do want a roll cage from rigidity, so how many points should i get, thus makin it work for my harnesses as well.

thanks.

also: does it matter if i have a sunroof or not?

[Z33dori]

not to thread jack....but does Cusco have a cage for Fastback too or only the coupes

[racepar1]

Has anybody read my posts? Or the original post? The OP wanted to know what's ideal! A bolted in pre-fabbed cage is not ideal. I never said a bolt in cage was completely unsafe and you would die if you crash. I simply stated that a bolt in cage is not installed properly, it should be welded in for both rigidity and safety. Why does everyone think that drifting is soooo different from racing? The only difference in safety there is that drifters crash more because they are close to out of control in the first place. I know that most people do not have the skills, resources, or access to the proper equipment to build their own cage so pre-fabbed cages are their only realistic option. For god's sake though at least instal it correctly! You CAN still remove it if you want to, welds can be cut/ground off.

[Z33dori]

you just confused the shit out of me.

[hellbilly1342]

Yeah, I was there to see that car roll. Roof smashed in all the way to the cage and stopped. I have a cusco in my car and I trust it for the type of driving I do. I like that it's lightweight and removable as well. If I beat up this chassis too much, I'll switch to another and take the cage with me.


this is the main reason behind me and my brother getting bolt in cages for our cars, he has the cusco/safety 21 cage for his corolla and i have the autopower for my 240 coupe. i thought about getting the cusco, but they are not scca approved for autocross which is what i will mostly be doing with some occassional drift. if we bash our cars too excessive to be repaired we can easily unbolt the cage and transfer to new car.

[JohnnyDrfiter22]

Get autopower 4-point. SCCA Approved for autoCrossing. It meets Drifting requirements and its weight wont be as much as a 8-point. It will approve stiffness.

[Brian]

just get a safety21/Cusco cage.
4 point, 5, 6, 7, 8...etc.

it will work fine.

[JohnnyDrfiter22]

Yeah but he said this is going to be his DD, i dont want to drive my DD with a rool cage right next to my damn head. You ever hit your head on one of those, IT HURTS!!! Regardless if you have padding or not.

[azndoc]

Yes DDing a car with a roll cage is dangerous. But many people do it.

Would I do it. Fuck no.

A cage is what you make of it. Some people do it for safety, some for rigidity, and some to fucking look cool.

Either way, all the names of those mention above are fine.

I was right behind that grey car when he crashed on the second run of the day. Crazy......

But that cusco one stood up.

It's better than nothing.

I have a weld in Battle Version one and it's awesome. I've never had a bolt in cage before so I can't tell you if theres a difference as far as rigidity goes. I just wanted to do it right the first time.

GL

[hotlavaflow]

http://www.zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=176132&highlight=roll+cage

[racepar1]

I just wanted to do it right the first time.

What's this you speak of? RIGHT the FIRST time!!!??? :loco: That just makes too much sense!

[s13silvia123]

this is a costume welded 8-point roll cage with door bars but i didnt take the pics of the door bars
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y159/team_city_image/IMG_1884.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y159/team_city_image/IMG_1885.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y159/team_city_image/IMG_1883.jpg