PW: Are you bitter?

[RJF]

Last Sunday in San Francisco, in off-the-cuff remarks before a group of rich donors, Obama let his true feelings about average Americans be known:

You go into some of these small towns in Pennsylvania, and like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing’s replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. So it’s not surprising then that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren’t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.

I guess according to him we're nothing but gun-toting, God-fearing rednecks.

Sorry, had to rant when I read this.

[Dirty Habit]

Don't sleep. That is exactly what we have around here.


Assasination attempt in 3....2....1...

[BustedS13]

it's hard to be mad about it when he's right on the money.

[Phlip]

People are usually mad when assessments of them are spot-on, "guilty dog barks loudest," they say

[98s14inaz]

...

I guess according to him we're nothing but gun-toting, God-fearing rednecks.

Sorry, had to rant when I read this.

You have every right to rant about that. It goes to show what he thinks of the white, blue collar, american worker. Mark my words, you will see much more of the same logic if he is elected. You think W was bad? Wait till Obama gets in. Complete extreme the other direction.

[eastcoastS14]

obama speaks the truth and ppl arent used to that....travel through the heart of the US and tell me he is lying, what he said is true and makes sense....when people feel like they are not heard and no party truely represents them and helps them then in their minds they vote for the lesser of two evils and the party that has some ideals that they share, so in many cases the party that shares similar religious views or views on things like gun control.....we are used to politicians bullshitting us and saying whats politically correct that when someone gets real ppl dont like it....hes not lying about the jobs is he? thank god for a candidate who says whats on his mind and doesnt try and sugar coat things

[jackjack]

i really dont give a damn who wins. i honestly believe nothings going to change. its all about money and how much richer they can get. whatever.

[RJF]

People are usually mad when assessments of them are spot-on, "guilty dog barks loudest," they say

I'm not bitter.....but I consider myself an "average" American, who has worked hard to try and succeed in life.

I just don't get philosophy being peddled by the politicians where if you have problems with your lives it's everyone else's fault but your own. They just want us all to be dependent on the Government for everything.

obama speaks the truth and ppl arent used to that........hes not lying about the jobs is he? thank god for a candidate who says whats on his mind and doesnt try and sugar coat things

No, he's not telling the truth....he's nothing but a "used-car" salesman, who is telling people what they want to hear. (No insult intended for any members on here that sell used cars)

As for jobs, how do you explain the economy? Unemployment is around 5%.....according to economist theory that is considered almost full -employment. The way he is talking you'd expect to be seeing soup-lines on every street corner. Granted, there is a slight dip in the economy overall right now, but who can we blame for that.....Government regulations which affected the banking industry and caused the mortgage crisis. But again it's not as bad as the media is making it out to be.

[aziankingz]

no one wins elections by telling the truth..but he is right about most of the small towns..its like going back into time..

[eastcoastS14]

I'm not bitter.....but I consider myself an "average" American, who has worked hard to try and succeed in life.

I just don't get philosophy being peddled by the politicians where if you have problems with your lives it's everyone else's fault but your own. They just want us all to be dependent on the Government for everything.

so you would have a problem with obama creating jobs in some of these places if he was elected?

[Phlip]

I'm not bitter.....but I consider myself an "average" American, who has worked hard to try and succeed in life.

I just don't get philosophy being peddled by the politicians where if you have problems with your lives it's everyone else's fault but your own. They just want us all to be dependent on the Government for everything.

And I am more than willing to concede to that. Keep in mind, though, that if what you're saying is 100%, then you're not the bitter "we" from his statement. I have been more than sick of the "none of my fuckups are my own fault" philosophy, along with the "look, we're the government, we ARE the answer" responses.

[mRclARK1]

He's right in a sense. Where I find those remarks insulting in a manner (even though I've never lived in any state in the midwest) is that he almost seems to imply the people are to stupid and ignorant to do anything about the problem themselves. All they're good for is loading a rifle and hitting thier Bible.

I also really take an issue with anyone who seems to think that religion is only for those who are "disadvantaged" in some way or poor. As if anyone with truly any intelligence doesn't believe any of it, and those who do are misguided and in need of some form of aid.

I find Obama talks a lot... but says very little.

[unwed_transient]

i could have sworn the people he's talking about were big on the 2nd amendment and were big into christianity before 25 years ago.

as far as immigration goes, i know plenty of people (myself included) that are doing well and are adamantly opposed to illegal immigration.

he's one of the biggest phonies to come down the pike since carter.

[eastcoastS14]

i could have sworn the people he's talking about were big on the 2nd amendment and were big into christianity before 25 years ago.

as far as immigration goes, i know plenty of people (myself included) that are doing well and are adamantly opposed to illegal immigration.

he's one of the biggest phonies to come down the pike since carter.


hes not saying only those people are against illeagal immigration hes saying when jobs and money are scarse people rely on community and ideals, they find comfort in things that they know and support leaders with the same values....and dont act like the south in the midwest dont have a huge gun/religious culture....lol look at the gun thread on zilvia....where are they from? You know how many shooting ranges I know of around here? Zero. How many people I know who own a gun? zero....I was recently in Savannah GA, and dont even try and tell me that the south doesnt have a whole lot of religion and a whole lot of guns

he's not just pulling this stuff out of his ass ppl.....sometimes the truth hurts I guess

[exitspeed]

^
Yep. I just drove from WI to FL and back and I noticed right away the further into the south we got the more religious billboards we saw. I also seen a lot of gun store billboards. Now I'm in the Midwest, but there isn't nearly as much of that here in WI. Or at least not in SE WI.

[unwed_transient]

hes not saying only those people are against illeagal immigration hes saying when jobs and money are scarse people rely on community and ideals, they find comfort in things that they know and support leaders with the same values....and dont act like the south in the midwest dont have a huge gun/religious culture....lol look at the gun thread on zilvia....where are they from? You know how many shooting ranges I know of around here? Zero. How many people I know who own a gun? zero....I was recently in Savannah GA, and dont even try and tell me that the south doesnt have a whole lot of religion and a whole lot of guns

he's not just pulling this stuff out of his ass ppl.....sometimes the truth hurts I guess

i think you either misunderstood my post or his comments. i'm not saying this culture doesn't exist. he's trying to tell you that people who hold those ideals as truths do so because they're poor and/or frustrated with their position in life. this is flat out false. he's implying causation. i'm implying correlation.

[OptionZero]

I find that judging politicians by what they say is quite useless.

[eastcoastS14]

i think you either misunderstood my post or his comments. i'm not saying this culture doesn't exist. he's trying to tell you that people who hold those ideals as truths do so because they're poor and/or frustrated with their position in life. this is flat out false. he's implying causation. i'm implying correlation.

so you dont think that people turn to religion and subcultures when times are tough? I think its total causation....people turn to religion and closely knit cultures and traditions because times are tough...these arent just religious gun owners who have fallen on hard times. Its always been tough to live in the south and midwest....even many times when the rest of the country prospers these places are poor, I feel like the south and midwest has a tradition of sticking to tradition and getting through things together...once again these places have always been conservative and slow to change so obama isnt making this shit up....he calls it the way he sees it and he aint exactly wrong....I couldnt believe when I went down to GA how many areas were just broke as FUCK....like on a whole different scale of broke, then 2 blocks over there is a nice ass neighborhood....but no one is helping those poor people....and that is the truth of this nation the gap between rich and poor is huge, ppl are out of work, and a lot of times no one wants to help those people....candidates say they will, but they dont

[mRclARK1]

I'm not responding to any particular person here.
The problem is that Obama seems to think these people are incapable of helping themselves, and that someone needs to save them from thier own ignorance.

As far as that part of the country having more firearms then the rest... look at the that part of the country. Guns are more common because guns are more likely used in thier lifestyle. Farms, ranches and acerages almost always NEED a rifle of some kind to keep any predatory animals away from livestock etc.

I live in Canada now, so it's not like I'll vote, but I'll use an example from here: No one generally thinks of Canada as a religious or violent nation. Is it religious? Not really, more Americans claim a religious affiliation (particularly Christianity) then Canadians. Is it violent? Actually... yes. Canadians kill each other on avg. more then Americans do, we just don't use guns as often. It's not that they aren't here. Most farmers etc (I live in a farm rich area) here have guns for the purposes I stated. The point I'm making here is gun ownership, and religious affiliation has nothing at all to do with a persons intelligence and social standing. Sure religion tends to find more poorer people in it's followers, but that's obvious since the poor have always been in need of, and therefore looking, for help... and who's usually the one giving that help? Religion. Most often the Christian church I might add.

[RJF]

so you would have a problem with obama creating jobs in some of these places if he was elected?

Why should the Government create jobs? Isn't that what companies and businesses are supposed to do? The Government needs to stop meddling and allow free-enterprise and the economy to work. Otherwise we might as well change our flag to all red with a hammer/sickle. We all know how well that worked out for them, with government-run industries.

[mRclARK1]

^^^Very good point. The gov. has never really been the way to create jobs. A good gov. doesn't need to. Its economy and its economy's businesses and citizens will do that.

[eastcoastS14]

Otherwise we might as well change our flag to all red with a hammer/sickle. We all know how well that worked out for them, with government-run industries.

that is potentially the dumbest thing Ive heard all day...so you are equating the US government creating jobs for poor Americans to the government control in the soviet union? makes sense.....yeah you know now that you mention it....FDR coming up with The New Deal, must have been a total commie

[Moon Ill]

I'm not bitter.....but I consider myself an "average" American, who has worked hard to try and succeed in life.

I just don't get philosophy being peddled by the politicians where if you have problems with your lives it's everyone else's fault but your own. They just want us all to be dependent on the Government for everything.



No, he's not telling the truth....he's nothing but a "used-car" salesman, who is telling people what they want to hear. (No insult intended for any members on here that sell used cars)

As for jobs, how do you explain the economy? Unemployment is around 5%.....according to economist theory that is considered almost full -employment. The way he is talking you'd expect to be seeing soup-lines on every street corner. Granted, there is a slight dip in the economy overall right now, but who can we blame for that.....Government regulations which affected the banking industry and caused the mortgage crisis. But again it's not as bad as the media is making it out to be.

5% isn't an incredibly large number when you use it like that. It seems rather timid.

7.8 Million on the other hand is crap.(source (http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm))

Also that fact that unemployment is increasing is also crap. If you want a good analogy consider getting hit by a car going 5mph. Not bad untill it gets to 10, 20, 30.

Think of the increase as a warning sign.

Am I bitter? Shit yea. I'll graduate and get a job that I'm not sure is very secure, and at the same time be scared to invest in a house.

People blaming trade (ie outsourcing) for this seems a pretty reasonable thing.

People blaming immigration (ie people coming in from outside taking jobs when unemployment is up) seems pretty reasonable.

People have always used religion as a backdrop for something, so that's not new. (eg "The lord wouldn't put me in any situation I couldn't handle")

Guns is a bit diffrent though. Maybe people who talked to talked about guns. I'm sure if he talked to us, maybe we'd talk about cars. You got me on that one.

You want another Reagan?

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2006/02/12/business/12view.graphic.jpg

Find his tenure on the chart.

Since we want to get into economic talk how about I through this in there too. I'm quoting this from the same article I pulled that from.


For more than two decades, the guiding thesis embraced by economists and policy makers was this: If unemployment became too low, the labor shortage would give workers the bargaining leverage to push up wages. Employers would respond by raising prices to cover the labor costs, starting an inflationary spiral deemed to be more damaging than a rising unemployment rate.

That dubious proposition kept America away from full employment. Every time the unemployment rate fell below a designated tipping point — 5 or 6 percent — the Federal Reserve would raise interest rates. The higher rates slowed the economy, muffled hiring and pushed the unemployment rate back up. The spell cast by this way of thinking did not break until the late 1990's, when the economy boomed, the unemployment rate plummeted, wages rose faster than inflation across the work force and, lo and behold, inflation remained low, although the Fed still held down interest rates.
(source (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/12/business/yourmoney/12view.html?_r=1&pagewanted=2&oref=slogin))


Information is 40% : Interpretation is 60%

I find that judging politicians by what they say is quite useless.

and voting for them on what they actually think might be quite scary.

[ripnbst]

I couldnt believe when I went down to GA how many areas were just broke as FUCK....like on a whole different scale of broke, then 2 blocks over there is a nice ass neighborhood....but no one is helping those poor people....and that is the truth of this nation the gap between rich and poor is huge, ppl are out of work, and a lot of times no one wants to help those people....candidates say they will, but they dont

So you believe that the poor should be the burden of the wealthy? These people need to help themselves, not other's handouts. I cant remember what TV special I was watching but it was probably where you speak of in GA. There were wealthy and EXTREMELY poor all attending the same school and these children(poor) were seriously saying they dont try at school and dont give a shit because they are poor and all the rich kids go to colleges and become wealthy and succesful. These people put themselves at a disadvantage from childhood, If they tried to get good grades to get into secondary education they could. There is an insane amount of need based financial aid available and they would definately get it, they REALLY need it. These people need help? Give me a break, first I need to see some effort on their part. If you wanna move up in social status quit crying and do something about it.
There are plenty of people that I know who are the first in their family attending college because they want better life. I live in PA.

[Andrew Bohan]

i thought all pennsylvanians are amish.

no?

[exitspeed]

So you believe that the poor should be the burden of the wealthy? These people need to help themselves, not other's handouts. I cant remember what TV special I was watching but it was probably where you speak of in GA. There were wealthy and EXTREMELY poor all attending the same school and these children(poor) were seriously saying they dont try at school and dont give a shit because they are poor and all the rich kids go to colleges and become wealthy and succesful. These people put themselves at a disadvantage from childhood, If they tried to get good grades to get into secondary education they could. There is an insane amount of need based financial aid available and they would definately get it, they REALLY need it. These people need help? Give me a break, first I need to see some effort on their part. If you wanna move up in social status quit crying and do something about it.
There are plenty of people that I know who are the first in their family attending college because they want better life. I live in PA.

I wouldn't blame those kids so much. It's kinda hard to be motivated when you have nothing but shit all around you. The PARENTS need to say, "hey, do good in school. Get good grades. You can go to collage for free and be whatever you want!". But that's not happening. I place the blame on the parents before the kids.

[98s14inaz]

obama speaks the truth and ppl arent used to that....travel through the heart of the US and tell me he is lying, what he said is true and makes sense....when people feel like they are not heard and no party truely represents them and helps them then in their minds they vote for the lesser of two evils and the party that has some ideals that they share, so in many cases the party that shares similar religious views or views on things like gun control.....we are used to politicians bullshitting us and saying whats politically correct that when someone gets real ppl dont like it....hes not lying about the jobs is he? thank god for a candidate who says whats on his mind and doesnt try and sugar coat things

It is nothing but a stereotype of white blue collar America, racism if you will. How about I say, "travel though the ghettos of America and you will find nothing but pregnant unwed teen mothers, theives, gang bangers, drug dealers, and ethnic groups who want a free ride? Do you see a difference? Yes you can find those things but it DOES NOT mean that it is true for all the residents of those areas. Obama's true self is starting to come to the surface. I think all the pressure he is getting is a good thing and it is making him slip up and show who he really is.

[Mi Beardo es Loco]

you have to realize that it took this country from 1776 to the Regan era to get 1 billion dollar in debt. This Iraq war is costing this country 3 billion dollars a week. That comes out to $130+ dollars out of each house of the US a month. Not to mention the rise of oil/gallon has sky rocketed. George Bush created a cluster fuck of mistakes in this country. It doesn't really matter who is president, the national debt won't be fixed, if at all, for another 3 generations. We may be witnessing the fall of Rome.

Also, another thought, it's ok to call a small amount Muslim religious fucks who bomb stores and crowded streets terrorists but it's not ok to call Americans stupid who support the war which killed millions of innocent people?

OP, Obama wasn't talking about you, he was speaking of the overly religious people who actually believe that God spoke to George Bush Jr. and gave him the thumbs up to bomb a country that showed no sign of Al-Quida before we showed up. Just because you are in the mid-West doesn't mean he's talking about you. You have to realize that a candidate like McCain is a cookie cut GWB light. We definitely need change in this country and we need to start from the top. IMHO, Obama is a step in the right direction. He will be a great president if he choses the right cabinet.

[unwed_transient]

that is potentially the dumbest thing Ive heard all day...so you are equating the US government creating jobs for poor Americans to the government control in the soviet union? makes sense.....yeah you know now that you mention it....FDR coming up with The New Deal, must have been a total commie

actually, history has proven that when the government artificially stimulates the economy, bad things happen.

the communist soviet economy didn't exactly flourish. why do you think the chinese aren't completely communist? why do you think even Lenin himself advocated the use of a capitalist structure to give the russian economy of his era a boost?

FDR's new deal set many poor people of this country on a path of dependence they are still on today. the government never has been, nor ever will be the answer to an individual's woes be they economic or otherwise.

It is nothing but a stereotype of white blue collar America, racism if you will. How about I say, "travel though the ghettos of America and you will find nothing but pregnant unwed teen mothers, theives, gang bangers, drug dealers, and ethnic groups who want a free ride? Do you see a difference? Yes you can find those things but it DOES NOT mean that it is true for all the residents of those areas. Obama's true self is starting to come to the surface. I think all the pressure he is getting is a good thing and it is making him slip up and show who he really is.

just look at the man who he calls his spiritual adviser and mentor. "reverse racism" is just as serious of an issue as racism in this country.

[iwishiwas-all*]

Last Sunday in San Francisco, in off-the-cuff remarks before a group of rich donors, Obama let his true feelings about average Americans be known:

You go into some of these small towns in Pennsylvania, and like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing’s replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. So it’s not surprising then that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren’t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.

I guess according to him we're nothing but gun-toting, God-fearing rednecks.

Sorry, had to rant when I read this.

i think his statement has alot of truth to it, and im a conservative (registered). i think people are bitter and thats why u get this witch hunt for immigrants, terrorists or whatever the fuck conservatives are chasing these days. In times of crisis you cling to what you know... most of the time its family, or in the case above, guns and jesus. everyone exhibits it and you know it, its apart of human nature. he just made one of the more educated statements of the election imo.

[unwed_transient]

i think his statement has alot of truth to it, and im a conservative (registered). i think people are bitter and thats why u get this witch hunt for immigrants, terrorists or whatever the fuck conservatives are chasing these days. In times of crisis you cling to what you know... most of the time its family, or in the case above, guns and jesus. everyone exhibits it and you know it, its apart of human nature. he just made one of the more educated statements of the election imo.
i didn't know that requiring people to adhere to the law made someone a bitter person. illegal immigrants don't exactly have it easy once they get here, so it's not like those of us who oppose that behavior are doing so because we think they're getting something we're not getting.

in any case, hillary and obama are just trying to out-liberal each other. so it ought to be interesting in the next few months.

[Mi Beardo es Loco]

actually, history has proven that when the government artificially stimulates the economy, bad things happen.

the communist soviet economy didn't exactly flourish. why do you think the chinese aren't completely communist? why do you think even Lenin himself advocated the use of a capitalist structure to give the russian economy of his era a boost?

FDR's new deal set many poor people of this country on a path of dependence they are still on today. the government never has been, nor ever will be the answer to an individual's woes be they economic or otherwise.
no offense, but who's talking about communism? The way to create jobs is to steady off the economy. This would lower the price of gas, create more jobs for truck drivers, create more independently owned trucking companies, lower the cost of the items they're hauling, lessen the cost of off the shelf items, and create small businesses for people who want to own their own business but don't have enough money to set us a large contract with even larger companies looking for steady business. The small business in the country has gone to shit and has been overtaken by larger corporations.

[Mi Beardo es Loco]

just look at the man who he calls his spiritual adviser and mentor. "reverse racism" is just as serious of an issue as racism in this country.

Have you ever been to a southern baptist church? There's chronic use of racism towards blacks and women who date black men. They comment of the support of segregation and stuff like that. These are the types of people that Obama is talking about. I grew up around these types of people and THEY are the reason I don't attend church anymore, although I still believe.

sorry about the double posting

[unwed_transient]

no offense, but who's talking about communism? The way to create jobs is to steady off the economy. This would lower the price of gas, create more jobs for truck drivers, create more independently owned trucking companies, lower the cost of the items they're hauling, lessen the cost of off the shelf items, and create small businesses for people who want to own their own business but don't have enough money to set us a large contract with even larger companies looking for steady business. The small business in the country has gone to shit and has been overtaken by larger corporations.

rjf made the initial comment, then eastcoasts14 made another post arguing against it.

unfortunately, small businesses who provide goods can hardly ever do so more cost effectively as large corporations. for the government to take action to keep small businesses in business is just as destructive as the government taking action to bolster the mega-corporations.



Have you ever been to a southern baptist church? There's chronic use of racism towards blacks and women who date black men. They comment of the support of segregation and stuff like that. These are the types of people that Obama is talking about. I grew up around these types of people and THEY are the reason I don't attend church anymore, although I still believe.

sorry about the double posting

sure, i included racism as being a problem. however, the republican candidate does not attend a church that advocates a white culture, a white way of thinking and the superiority of whites. if that were the case, he'd be run out of washington on a rail.

[eastcoastS14]

so do any of you know what The New Deal was?

wikipedia is your friend

[ESmorz]

so do any of you know what The New Deal was?

wikipedia is your friend

haha you beat me to it.

[mRclARK1]

so do any of you know what The New Deal was?

wikipedia is your friend

I do.

But does Wikipedia know what it was? There's a reason you can't site Wiki on college papers. Sorry... I'm just being an asshole. lol

[drift freaq]

that is potentially the dumbest thing Ive heard all day...so you are equating the US government creating jobs for poor Americans to the government control in the soviet union? makes sense.....yeah you know now that you mention it....FDR coming up with The New Deal, must have been a total commie

Ok, you had to comment. School is in. If anybody thinks the New Deal is what saved this country from the Depression then they failed in socio economic studies.

The New Deal looked good on paper but its not what pulled this country out of the Depression WWII and the massive arms buildup we did for it is what pulled this country to prosperity. We were selling Arms to England,Russia and every other ally. In fact our factory production numbers for tanks, ships and planes was unprecendented in the history of this country. My father was a child in the Depression and a Young man in WWII he witnessed first hand what made this country strong again.

It was not the New Deal which most bleeding heart liberals who were not alive at the time would like to believe by reading about it either in school or on stupid ass factually inaccurate Wikipedia, where anyone with an opinion can post it as actual fact.

I know a lot of people here like Obama. Obama speaks a good line to the point of almost a Demigod. Its a little scary. He really has no track record in ILL. He did nothing. He does not have much of any real plans to lay out but boy can he talk.
Hillary is a amoral unethical ends justify the means agenda happy monster. She is scary too.
McCain? I am not to happy about him either basically this whole election just bites.

[ESmorz]

Ok, you had to comment. School is in. If anybody thinks the New Deal is what saved this country from the Depression then they failed in socio economic studies.

The New Deal looked good on paper but its not what pulled this country out of the Depression WWII and the massive arms buildup we did for it is what pulled this country to prosperity. We were selling Arms to England,Russia and every other ally. In fact our factory production numbers for tanks, ships and planes was unprecendented in the history of this country. My father was a child in the Depression and a Young man in WWII he witnessed first hand what made this country strong again.


However, you can't argue that it didn't do a lot for the countries morale. Giving jobs to those who hadn't been able to get one in god knows how long, giving them a sense of purpose.

Yes, the war was the swift end to the depression, but this "war" is certainly not doing that... In fact it seems to be doing quite the opposite.

[Andrew Bohan]

doing the opposite for us, cuz we're not defense contractors

do we really need to go into how wars are a good tool for getting rich, if you're don't care about people dying?

there's no end plan for iraq, because they don't want it to end. as long as it's going, they're getting rich

[ESmorz]

doing the opposite for us, cuz we're not defense contractors

do we really need to go into how wars are a good tool for getting rich, if you're don't care about people dying?

there's no end plan for iraq, because they don't want it to end. as long as it's going, they're getting rich

Yeah. Man I wish I was a defense contractor... haha

[Howard92884]

In the end you are either voting for a douchebag or a turd sandwich.

[inertiaticism]

He's right to an extent, but people too easily lump all Christians in with the ignorant GOD HATES FAGS baptist fundies.
I'm not much of a religious man myself, but not everyone who has religious beliefs of some sort is a hyper conservative idiot.
But a lot of hyper conservative fundie idiots are also racist, loudmouthed, gun toting hicks. So it's easy to paint all of one region/class/staus level with one brush from the other side of the country/income bracket/social order.

It's just like at a sporting event, it's the drunken fuckhead with stuff painted all over his bare chest, screaming that he wants the ref to get fucked in the ass in prison that you remember, not the 45,000 other people sitting there, enjoying a beer and watching the game.

Loudmouthed fundie rednecks are that dude at the football game.

[eastcoastS14]

Ok, you had to comment. School is in. If anybody thinks the New Deal is what saved this country from the Depression then they failed in socio economic studies.

The New Deal looked good on paper but its not what pulled this country out of the Depression WWII and the massive arms buildup we did for it is what pulled this country to prosperity. We were selling Arms to England,Russia and every other ally. In fact our factory production numbers for tanks, ships and planes was unprecendented in the history of this country. My father was a child in the Depression and a Young man in WWII he witnessed first hand what made this country strong again.

It was not the New Deal which most bleeding heart liberals who were not alive at the time would like to believe by reading about it either in school or on stupid ass factually inaccurate Wikipedia, where anyone with an opinion can post it as actual fact.

I know a lot of people here like Obama. Obama speaks a good line to the point of almost a Demigod. Its a little scary. He really has no track record in ILL. He did nothing. He does not have much of any real plans to lay out but boy can he talk.
Hillary is a amoral unethical ends justify the means agenda happy monster. She is scary too.
McCain? I am not to happy about him either basically this whole election just bites.


well thats all fine but i wasnt pointing out the new deal to say that it was what ended the great depression....It did however contain many public works projects that employed a lot of people when work was scarse, there was poverty everywhere and the govt stepped up and created jobs for people who had none and allowed them to work and support and feed their families......but ppl here have this attitude like the govt shouldnt intervene and that its not its responsibility and RJF made the comment that doing that makes us like communist nations. I was merely pointing out the fact that the government had created jobs on a massive scale during the great depression and we were far from communists

[drift freaq]

However, you can't argue that it didn't do a lot for the countries morale. Giving jobs to those who hadn't been able to get one in god knows how long, giving them a sense of purpose.

Yes, the war was the swift end to the depression, but this "war" is certainly not doing that... In fact it seems to be doing quite the opposite.

Ya well I never said this War is doing that. In fact this war is having the opposite effect, because we are not making and selling stuff to people. We are just spending money to fight it.

well thats all fine but i wasnt pointing out the new deal to say that it was what ended the great depression....It did however contain many public works projects that employed a lot of people when work was scarse, there was poverty everywhere and the govt stepped up and created jobs for people who had none and allowed them to work and support and feed their families......but ppl here have this attitude like the govt shouldnt intervene and that its not its responsibility and RJF made the comment that doing that makes us like communist nations. I was merely pointing out the fact that the government had created jobs on a massive scale during the great depression and we were far from communists

The public works projects were good, but those were different times. See right now the issue is not how many people are out of work. In the depression you had a 30% unemployment rate. Now we are running at about 4-5% unemployment rate.
The problem today is people want someone to fix everything for them. They are not willing to responsibility for their bullshit. People want to bailed out of loans and mortgages they should not have taken because they really could not afford them. People want flaunt money and wealth even if they don't have it. People want to live off credit with nothing to back it up.

In fact people are willing to default on their home loans in favor of keeping their credit cards going. That is a reported fact and basically its something thats never been seen before in the history of the country.
How can you bail out someone who is not even fiscally responsible? They have jobs they just can't save for the sake of their own lives!

The mistake the Government made in previous administrations I might add, is making the lending laws to lax in a effort to offer home ownership possibilities to people that could otherwise not afford it. Now affordable does not mean cheap loans. Affordable means lower costs. Unfortunately no one wants to take responsibility for that.

Fact is people are crying bail me out because Bearn Stearns was bailed by the Goverment stepping in. Only reason that happened was because it would have taken the whole financial world down if they did go bankrupt. We would have had a real depression.
We are having a recession right now. Its not bad enough for the Government to step in and create jobs.

Obama and Hillary talk about bailing home owners out. Unfortunately some form of this will probably happen because people are so upside down on their mortgages. they are wiling to walk away from the home aka bail on it. If that happens on a large scale level we are in deep shit.

In essence the Governments meddling in stuff is what got us into this mess. So whereas RJF's comments may have gone a little extreme I understand and agree with what he is esentially trying to say.

Communist? Not quite, overly socialist? Well we are somewhat down that road right now and look at the mess.

[ESmorz]

Ya well I never said this War is doing that. In fact this war is having the opposite effect, because we are not making and selling stuff to people. We are just spending money to fight it.


Never said you did. :coolugh:

Is Zilvia always this poised towards politics or is it just because it's an election year... It's getting old. Nothing any of us say on a import cars internet forum is going to change anyones mind or opinions.

[drift freaq]

Never said you did. :coolugh:

Is Zilvia always this poised towards politics or is it just because it's an election year... It's getting old. Nothing any of us say on a import cars internet forum is going to change anyones mind or opinions.

Its probably the fact that its a election year. Though we have debated political stuff in the past. Fact is there are some people here that have opinions and enjoy lively debates. Hence the reason we have off topic, its also nice to actually see car people discussing things besides cars all the time. LOL.

[ESmorz]

Its probably the fact that its a election year. Though we have debated political stuff in the past. Fact is there are some people here that have opinions and enjoy lively debates. Hence the reason we have off topic, its also nice to actually see car people discussing things besides cars all the time. LOL.

I'm all for people voicing their opinions. But, people who do it to try and sway other people is futile and annoying.

[eastcoastS14]

^^ haha you would hate having dinner at my house lol when my dads brothers are in town political debates always come up....I sit and argue with them and in the end no one is right lol, its funny my mom and aunts and grandmother argue for a while but eventually give up cause they know we are all stubborn as shit....Im glad my family is like that cause Ive learned to argue strongly....I think a lot of people dont like to argue about things tho cause they feel like they are being attacked, lol people who arent used to my family are probably like wtf hahah

[ESmorz]

^^ haha you would hate having dinner at my house lol when my dads brothers are in town political debates always come up....I sit and argue with them and in the end no one is right lol, its funny my mom and aunts and grandmother argue for a while but eventually give up cause they know we are all stubborn as shit....Im glad my family is like that cause Ive learned to argue strongly....I think a lot of people dont like to argue about things tho cause they feel like they are being attacked, lol people who arent used to my family are probably like wtf hahah

My family is the exact same way. Thanksgiving is my favorite holiday for that exact reason.

[drift freaq]

My family is the exact same way. Thanksgiving is my favorite holiday for that exact reason.

LOL hahahhaha no wonder the three of us always get into debates. My family was the exact same way growing up. Its why I kicked ass in history. Nothing like older brother and sisters arguing with my Dad over everything under the sun history wise.

What I have found is when your willing to voice your opinion or even impart something you have learned people who don't know resent it.
Problem is I enjoy a lively debate and I like to give out what I have learned. Some assholes who are ignorant or jealous will try to call it egotistical. Its not so much that as I have do something with it besides just learning and using it myself. LOL

[SR240DET]

I’m just curious about some of you guys so…..

What is the roll of government in this country supposed to be?

What does the Constitution and Bill of Rights do? What is its purpose?

My favorite question is this.

What was the cause of the Great Depression of 1930?

[hitman]

i think everyone should have guns. is the second amendment not the culmination of democracy? if everyone has weapons of a definite type then how can pure democracy not come about.
furthermore, obama supports nafta. clinton and obama are both politically bankrupt. they are trying to party like its 1789.
often things should not be placed upon the individual but one should try to relate biography to history so to speak. sure when one person doesnt have a job thats their fault, but for example when in the great depression 25% of the working force was unemployed, is that still the result of some laziness of each worker? when a something systematically creates poverty or wars or whatever its no longer legitimate to blame the individual. if you think everything thats wrong with the country is the result of those harmed persons characteristics or personalities and not certain socio economic conditions or what have you then you are some sort of historical farce

[PBucch]

it's hard to be mad about it when he's right on the money.

word is born

[SimpleS14]

He's keeping it real IMO....but sadly, i don't see him as the next president.

[98s14inaz]

...In times of crisis you cling to what you know... most of the time its family, or in the case above, guns and jesus. everyone exhibits it and you know it, its apart of human nature...

When your gov't fails you need to go back to the beginning and retrace where we went wrong...in our case, not taking the constitution literally is our downfall. All this "interpretation" has twisted its meaning and jaded the populace it was meant to protect from tyranny.

Obama is placing the blame on the people instead of where it belongs. Some of these towns he is talking about were built when the factories opened. The entire economy in those towns were based on income the citizen's received from working in those factories. When the factories closed the citizens had no income.

It is not the government's place to provide for them, it is however the government's job to hold the corporations/individuals accountable for their actions. The government should stop giving tax breaks to companies who do things that aren't in the best interest of our country and citizens. If jobs and factories get outsourced to another country, guess what...your tax breaks are gone. If your company is making record profits while raping the American public, guess what...your free ride is over. Your company makes enormous fuel inefficient vehicles even though the technology exists to make them more efficient, guess what...your gov't piggy bank is dried up.

Illegal immigration is only a small part of the problem, they are being used like the Jews were to distract the ignorant American public from what is really going on.

One thing the ignorant blue collar masses have right though...the 2nd amendment makes the other amendments possible. Obama was right, we do cling to our guns. Why is our gov't so hell bent on taking them away?

[98s14inaz]

...
sure, i included racism as being a problem. however, the republican candidate does not attend a church that advocates a white culture, a white way of thinking and the superiority of whites. if that were the case, he'd be run out of washington on a rail.

Very true, I said that when I researched his church. Scary stuff.

[Koopa Troopa]

you have to realize that it took this country from 1776 to the Regan era to get 1 billion dollar in debt. This Iraq war is costing this country 3 billion dollars a week. That comes out to $130+ dollars out of each house of the US a month. Not to mention the rise of oil/gallon has sky rocketed. George Bush created a cluster fuck of mistakes in this country. It doesn't really matter who is president, the national debt won't be fixed, if at all, for another 3 generations. We may be witnessing the fall of Rome.

Also, another thought, it's ok to call a small amount Muslim religious fucks who bomb stores and crowded streets terrorists but it's not ok to call Americans stupid who support the war which killed millions of innocent people?

OP, Obama wasn't talking about you, he was speaking of the overly religious people who actually believe that God spoke to George Bush Jr. and gave him the thumbs up to bomb a country that showed no sign of Al-Quida before we showed up. Just because you are in the mid-West doesn't mean he's talking about you. You have to realize that a candidate like McCain is a cookie cut GWB light. We definitely need change in this country and we need to start from the top. IMHO, Obama is a step in the right direction. He will be a great president if he choses the right cabinet.

Dude hop off the leftist bandwagon before you hurt yourself and piss me off further. You clearly have no fucking clue about anything you just posted about. We killed so many innocent people, blah blah blah. Have you ever experienced a culture outside of the US? I ask this because you talk like some jackass who gets spoon fed liberal propaganda.

Stop watching Micheal Moore movies. America didn't fucking collapse when the stock market crashed and it sure as shit won't collapse cause the people in charge keep running up tabs.

[drift freaq]

I’m just curious about some of you guys so…..

What is the roll of government in this country supposed to be?

What does the Constitution and Bill of Rights do? What is its purpose?

My favorite question is this.

What was the cause of the Great Depression of 1930?

The roll of Government is to provide orderly leadership and represent the interests of the people. I shall quote "We the people by the people for the People"
The constitution is the basis of our Government overall. The Bill of rights is for the constituents aka the people, all people! If you have to ask what the purpose is, that scares me. We all should know what the purpose of these documents are. They represent the establishment of this country. Without them we would have the United States.

Now if you really don't know the cause of the great depression. I will tell you. Basically the Great Depression came about because of two things. One was people buying stocks on margin i.e. without actual funding to back it up. Now when you buy on a margin and the stock goes down your required to pay up on the margin. In the stock crash of 1929 and leading up to it Margin requirements were very low. (Hehehe kinda reminds us of sub prime loan requirements being low). Now When a lot of these peoples margin calls came in they really did not have the cash or assets to cover. They in essence defaulted. This created a Domino effect crashing the stock market. Once the Stock Market crashed the public panicked and made a run on the banks to pull their cash out. The result was wholesale bank failure and the Fed stepping in and locking the doors on the banks. It also led to Gold no longer being the standard and basis for our currency.
Business's sustaining large losses due to the crash had to lay off workers in essence to balance the bottom line. These factors are what created the great depression.

Now like I mentioned earlier what was going on with sub prime and jumbo loans was eerily reminiscent of the past. People are walking way from their loans without paying them. Bearn Stearns was about to have a run on the bank when the fed stepped in , using a directive that was on the books that came right out of legislation during the great depression to halt this sort of thing in the public sector.

Now I feel had BearStearns gone done it would have dragged other financial houses with it. Lehman Brothers, Citi, and several others. I do feel this could have led to another Depression , not recession. There are people in the financial world who agree with me and others that don't think that would have happened.
Are we out of the current mess yet? No, are we at the bottom of the whole mortgage housing thing? No. We are still a good several months off the bottom.
Should we bail out people like Obama and Hillary want to do, fuck no. They took the loan knowing full well what would happen.
The only reason Bear Stearns was bailed was because it was integral to the whole stability of the market and retention of it.
Unfortunately a lot of these sub prime people are starting to walk on their loans big time and if this keeps on happening, then yes the Government will step in and bail them out to avoid a real bad situation.

I said this earlier and I will say it again this whole mess got started based on earlier administrations trying to help people afford housing. It was not a thought out process it was a feel good measure. It caused the current mess. Affordable housing is not giving people home loans who could not otherwise afford them by low interest rates and easy requirements. Affordable housing is selling houses at affordable prices, period!

It will be interesting to watch Hillary and Obama in the coming weeks. They really are starting to tear each other apart.
Oh and Obama says what you want to hear. The question is can he do what claims and does he have the experience and ability to do it.

[98s14inaz]

I’m just curious about some of you guys so…..

...
What does the Constitution and Bill of Rights do? What is its purpose?
...

The constitution would not have existed with out the bill of rights. The states refused to ratify the constitution with out the bill of rights that was promised. Maybe all those blue collar ignorant hicks were on to something eh?

[98s14inaz]

...
It will be interesting to watch Hillary and Obama in the coming weeks. They really are starting to tear each other apart.
Oh and Obama says what you want to hear. The question is can he do what claims and does he have the experience and ability to do it.

Ditto, I can't wait for one of them to slip or a skeleton to get dragged out. Maybe Hilldog will have the secret service execute someone else to cover something up. That would be cool.