SR Running Super Rich!!!!!! HELP!!!!

[speedfiend]

Alright guys I just got installing everything into my blacktop sr. Mods are as follows:
Stock Bottom End
Tomei 1.2 mm headgasket
Hks 256/264 cams
Tomei RAS
Sard 550cc injectors
Circuit Sports intake mani gasket (this thing is like an 1/8th inch thick and sets the manifold back a little further therefore injectors are set back a little further. Not sure if this could be causing the problem. It is not leaking though!!!!!!yeahhh)
MBC
N/A Throttle body
MR Manifold
S15 BB T28
Sard FPR
Enthalpy Rom Tune
S-AFC (all settings zeroed out)
Heres the problem. I am running really rich even under partial throttle. I checked fuel pressure and it was initially at 48psi and the car would not see boost and just bucked and jerked. I lowered the fuel pressure all the way down to 36psi and it now see's boost and definately runs alot better. I am still seeing really rich numbers though. Under partial throttle accelerating I am seeing as low as 9.6 afr or below and this was only seeing about 8 psi of boost (I have my mbc set higher but this was just partial throttle). Under constant throttle just cruising it is about an even 14.0 afr and at idle it is high 14's to low 15's afr. All these numbers were recorded on my zeitronix wideband. I have checked all vacuum lines and they are perfectly fine. I am thinking that it is something with the tune but I am awaiting a response from Scott (RS Enthalpy) right now but we all know how busy he is and how it takes a while for him to get back sometimes. So I figured I would post my issue here and see if you guys had any ideas. Thanx and sorry for such a long post but wanted to explain everything in full so you know what is happening.
Cameron

[KiLLeR2001]

Torn injector o-rings? Are you getting white smoke out the tailpipe that smells strong like gas? Try unplugging one injector at a time to see if anything changes?

[speedfiend]

The injectors are brand new and have be flow tested so im pretty sure they are fine. Im not getting any white smoke, It does smell rich but no white smoke that I have seen.

[xsublimefrekx]

you need to tune the AFC, lean it out under partial throttle. You should also check the setting for when the AFC changes maps.

[speedfiend]

I was told by Scott that I should zero everything out and his tune would take care of everything. I know that I can fine tune with the S-AFC but I was under the understanding that his tunes were pretty much dead on with a little to the rich side to avoid detenation. Most everyone that I have seen with his tunes have not had to adjust anything at all and the ones that went to the dyno to fine tune only gained very minor amounts of power just by slightly leaning it out. I dont think he would have tuned this rich. Plus I dont want to make any major changes with the S-AFC since I dont have anything to control ignition timing. I will wait to hear back from Scott before I make any changes to the S-AFC. For now I just want to see if any one has any ideas other then leaning it out via the S-AFC. Thanx, Cameron

[speedfiend]

Alright my dad got home with the timing light so that was the first thing I checked. Well come to find out it was way off. So I got that set to right at 15-16* BTDC and the idle seems to have stablized a bit. I also went back and reset my FPR to 43-44psi with the vacuum unhooked which came out to about 36-37psi under vacuum. I havent had a chance to take it out yet to see if that made any difference but I will in about an hour or so. I also unhooked the s-afc just to see if that could be a culprit. I highly doubt it cause it was working perfectly fine before I installed all the parts and nothing was touched that was related to s-afc wiring or anything. I will keep you guys posted. Thanx, Cameron

[slider2828]

Sounds about right. 36-37 psi is normal...

[speedfiend]

Alright well its been awhile since I posted up here so let me tell you guys what I have encountered and how things are going. First off I found out that my wideband was controlling my stock o2 so I disconnected the wire that connects the wideband to the stock o2. That helped out a little bit. Second I completely disconnected my s-afc and pulled it out and that helped out a ton. I also replaced the plugs and that helped for a little bit but since it is still running too rich it has already fouled the plugs out again. I am getting steady idle and under partial acceleration everything is good up until about 4500rpm. Once you hit that it starts to buck and spit and sputter since it is getting way to much fuel. I have already gotten new plugs that Im gonna install and I think im gonna replace the stock o2 sensor just to eliminate that as a factor. I also installed all new sard vacuum lines 4mm ID and installed a splitfire coilpack system so I know for a fact that it is not a bad coil or vacuum leak. Does anyone know if the z32 o2 sensor is the same as the sr fat type o2 sensor? I have heard a couple rumors but I just wanna be sure before I have my dad order one. Anyways I have sent enthalpy some emails and Im awaiting his response as to what else I should try but just wanted to update this to see if anyone else has any ideas.

Oh and about the injector o-rings being torn. I have not checked them, but they were flow bench tested before I recieved them and I have the chart and everything was good to go. If the lower rings were torn wouldnt they have caught that and said something or replaced them? Just wondering other wise I will pull my intake mani and check them just for good measure.

Any help or ideas is much appreciated. Thanx, Cameron

[steve shadows]

Just like every car.

It's always the AFC

wired wrong, Air Flow meter wired wrong, Air Flow meter incorrectly intecepted and AFC wired wrong or just the AFC in ETC settings is set up wrong.

I fucking hate them, why do you fucking kids even buy them? what a waste


enthalpy ecu + afc = MORE THAN A USED POWER FC and An hour or two of Tuning, at least in most cases.


oh and ps

IF THE TUNED ROM IS DONE PROPERY you should NOT need an AFC, at all EVER!

Ive checked some cars out on my dyno with rom tunes, and the AFC's zeroed and the tunes are usually DEAD ON, at least the Jim Wolf Ones have been. 2 out of 2 so far. AFR and Output.

The AFC is not even needed.

[speedfiend]

Yeah I understand that the afc is useless. I have had it for awhile now and was using it for the knock readings. I know it was wired up correctly but it was just interfering with my maf readings. Anyways I have a zeitronix wideband so I will be using that to datalog everything and will have a gauge mounted inside here pretty soon.

As for the tune being incorrect im not going to assume that just yet. I know that I dont need the afc with a correct rom tune and that is why it is no longer installed. I am still boggled as to why I am running into such rich conditions under partial throttle (havent even been wot). I think im going to try gapping my plugs at .028 instead of .03 and see if that helps as well as I might turn my fp down to around 34psi and see if that has any effect. I also need to know if the z32 o2 sensor is the same as the s14 blacktop sensor so that I can replace that and eliminate that as a factor.

Thanx for the insight about the afc shadowerks. I am in route to having everything done right. Young and dumb is what ill blame that on.

Cameron

[steve shadows]

Yeah I understand that the afc is useless. I have had it for awhile now and was using it for the knock readings. I know it was wired up correctly but it was just interfering with my maf readings. Anyways I have a zeitronix wideband so I will be using that to datalog everything and will have a gauge mounted inside here pretty soon.



No your not dumb, it's just mass marketing get's the best of us sometimes.

I'm serious though take it completely out. Reading knock is useless unless your on a dyno with like 3 other things to check for real knock and not just reverb, the stock sensor nearly never reads properly anyways. Just get rid of it and make sure all the wiring is clean and back in it's stock location

then everything should work fine.

[aNskY]

Oh and about the injector o-rings being torn. I have not checked them, but they were flow bench tested before I recieved them and I have the chart and everything was good to go. If the lower rings were torn wouldnt they have caught that and said something or replaced them? Just wondering other wise I will pull my intake mani and check them just for good measure.



that doesnt mean you didnt break one on install.... did you use any lube? sometimes those suckers are stubborn. pull em out and check them at least

[speedfiend]

OH well yeah it is already completely taken out. It definately helped the whole situation but I am still running really rich. Should I try new plugs and gap them to .028 instead of .030? Also I doubt this would effect anything but vacuum, but I replaced all my vacuum lines with 4mm ID SARD hoses. I know some were 6mm ID but now I just read a little more vacuum and boost increases a little quicker, other then that it should be fine correct?

[speedfiend]

that doesnt mean you didnt break one on install.... did you use any lube? sometimes those suckers are stubborn. pull em out and check them at least

Yeah I am going to do that tonight. I did use silcone lube on them upon install but I can remember exactly if I did it on the lower two o-rings or just the big upper one. I hope that is the problem cause I am running out of ideas and I really dont wanna suspect the tune.
Thanx, Cameron

[steve shadows]

Sounds like either the MAF wiring is incorrect, the tune is bad or you have some sort of boost leak or air leak after th MAF where air is getting into the engine.

The again the injector o-ring thing could be dead on. I would pull those too.

See if any of your SPARK PLUGS look richer than others, or if they are all even.

[Flybert]

My guess is mechanical timing problem on the cam install.

[steve shadows]

If it were anything more than punching the CAS wrong the car wouldnt run.

at all.

[speedfiend]

Yeah I was just fixing to say I checked all my spark plugs today and they are all burning the same. Therefore I doubt an o-ring is leaking since it would have to be on all four injectors.

As for the MAF wiring, the MAF has been in my car and running fine for a little over a year now so I dont suspect that as being the culprit. Plus when I unplug it there is a noticable difference in idle so I know it is working properly.

I have checked for leaks all over the place and cant come up with anything. The only place that I could suspect a leak would be at the intake mani to the block where I installed a circuit sports plastic intake mani gasket instead of the oem metal one. The new gasket is about an 1/8" thick so the injectors sit a little further back from the manifold. First of if this were leaking I would suspect it would cause a lean condition since it is taking in unmeasured air. Second off once again wouldnt it be a lean condition if the injectors were sitting to far back due to the gasket thickness?

Unfortunately I am beginning to suspect the tune might be just to rich. I am going to try dropping my fuel pressure down from stock to about 32-34 psi and see how that effects the situation.
Thanx, Cameron

[speedfiend]

My guess is mechanical timing problem on the cam install.

Nah the timing has been checked multiple times and it is dead on stock. All sensors are in perfect working order as well.
Cameron

[speedfiend]

Alright guys I replaced the plugs and lowered my fuel pressure to about 32psi under vacuum. I hooked my wideband datalogger up and it seems to be idling a little leaner which is good. When I drive the car it starts to miss and spit and sputter around 4000-4500 rpm. So while I had the wideband hooked up I tried reving it and holding the rpms at about 4000rpm and when I did, it would hold for a couple seconds then start missing intermittently. The fuel pressure was not dropping hardly at all. I took a video of my wideband screen while it was doing this so you guys can see what im talking about. It seems like it is either something electrical or like there is some sort of fail safe mode that the ecu is going into when revved to this rpm. Anyways take a look at the video and let me know what you think. Thanx, Cameron
http://thumbs.streetfire.net/d52e870b-1157-422b-a075-9a780178ab75.jpg (http://videos.streetfire.net/video/Wideband-video-SR-missing_156852.htm)Wideband video SR missing (http://videos.streetfire.net/video/Wideband-video-SR-missing_156852.htm)

[speedfiend]

Well I have tested everything that I can think of. I thought it was the knock sensor since the fsm describes all the exact symptoms that I am having. That was not the case though. I tested it according to the fsm and everything was good as well as tried two different sensors and still the same problem. I tested my tps according to the fsm and it checked out all good too. There is something that is causing the ecu to go into a fail safe mode and dump a ton of fuel. I was wondering since I replaced my injectors with SARD 550's I had to wire in new plugs. Can anyone tell me if the positive and negative are switched from the stock wiring order? Would the injectors even work if they were wired backwards? According to consult they are all running at about 1.7msec so I know they are working just wondering if maybe they are backwards and sending a signal to the ecu to go into fail safe. I also wonder this because all four cylinders are equally sooted up which shows that everything is burning evenly just way to rich. Any thoughts are much appreciated. Cameron

[speedfiend]

*UPDATE* Today me and my dad checked the injector pulse and ignition pulse with some lights. When we would rev it and hold it and it started to miss the lights would dim down but not go completely out which shows that for some reason the ecu is cutting fuel and spark like a fail safe. So we figure what the hell lets try plugging in my stock untuned ecu and if it starts to miss at the same rpms or what it would do. Well since I have upgraded injectors, cams, mafs and all that I figured the stock ecu would run like shit. I WAS WRONG. With the stock ecu in it is no longer missing at all. The power is very linear while driving. I had my wideband hooked up and at idle it is right around 15.-15.5 afr's and under partial throttle it got as rich as high 10's and leaned out at about 12.8's. I raised my fuel pressure slightly just to compensate for the lean situation. Anyways a very long story short the tuned ecu is obviously the culprit. I am gonna run on my stock ecu for a couple days and see what happens while I am waiting to hear from the Scott at enthalpy that tuned my ecu. Hopefully all my problems will be cleared up in a week or so. Thanx for hanging in there with me and offering your ideas and thoughts as to what it could be.
Cameron

[Erjay1]

What do you think would cause an untuned ecu to go into this "failsafe" or I believe fuel cut off?? Mine does the same thing at 5500rpms but I dont have upgraded injectors.

[speedfiend]

I have no idea yet to be honest. I have tested everything on the car and it still does the same thing. As a matter of fact for an update I just recieved the ecu back from enthalpy. They sent it out and had it tested on someone's car with a similar setup and it ran fine. Once I got it back I hooked it up and it still did the same thing. Revs to about 3k and startes to miss intermittently. So I then hooked the tuned ecu up on my frineds completely stock blacktop and it ran perfectly fine. Reved and everthing. So I guess tomorrow Im gonna check the injectors and make sure nothing is leaking and everything is good. I might also try switching back to my stock mafs and see if that changes anything just for peace of mind. Let me know if you figure anything out or if anyone has any thoughts. Thanx, Cameron

[bmx22]

hey man my friend had a similar problem on his s14 black top not as bad because he had stock turbo and injectors..the problem was the circuite sports intake gasket. car ran like shit with it and way better with out it.......

[speedfiend]

Thanx for the insight man. I too was sort of suspecting that gasket since it is so thick compared to stock. Well today I am gonna check my injectors for leakage just for shits and giggles and once that is done I might just yank that gasket and throw my stock one back on and see if that clears it up. Thanx alot and I will let you guys know what turns up. Cameron

[Erjay1]

Have you tried a different z32 maf? Im thinking this is what is causing the issues on my car. Wont know until tonight or tomorrow.

[speedfiend]

Yeah I have tried a different z32 mafs and still no change. I also just got done swapping the circuit sports intake mani gasket out for the oem one and still no change. It is hitting some sort of fail safe right at 2500 rpm. I since I had to wire the plugs for my injectors, I might swap the wires around and see if that makes a change. I have been told that it doesnt matter what side power and ground go to on the injector but I just want to try it for peace of mind.
Cameron

[speedfiend]

Well over the weekend me and my dad spent about 4 hours testing wires all over the place. We tested all sensors ie. mafs, temp, cas, knock, injectors, everything, at the ecu as well as at the sensors themselves. All voltages were in line with what the fsm says they should be. These tests were taken at the ecu as well as at the sensor itself. We did this on both ecu's and the voltages are the exact same for both ecu's. Not only that but when the tuned ecu is plugged in and I rev it up to 2500rpm where it enters the failsafe and begins missing, not a single one of the voltages budges. At this point I am completely baffled and so is my dad. Today I am going to pull my injectors and reinstall my stock ones and see if for some reason the sard injectors are causing the problem. Oh and also I took the tuned ecu and plugged it into a buddies completely stock s14 blacktop and it ran perfectly fine, reved and held and everything. I also sent it to enthalpy and he had it tested in a car as well and it ran fine. I am beginning to think that my car just wasnt ment for a tuned ecu. Might have to sell everything and go full standalone.

Just wanted to update the thread. I will continue to update until I figure it out just in case someone else runs into a similar problem, they will have a thread to reference.

Cameron

[KiLLeR2001]

Coilpacks. Try your buddy's coil packs vs your own and see if anything changes.

[speedfiend]

I know the coil packs are good because I just installed a splitfire coilpack system. Also if it were the coil packs it would have to be all of them at the same time and I would think they would cause a missfire even at idle. I was having this problem with my stock coilpacks as well as my splitfire system so I really doubt it is that. Thanx for the idea though. Keep em coming.
Cameron

[speedfiend]

Well got the sard injectors out and the oems put back in. Not only did it not cure the problem but now the car will barely run on either ecu. While running, when you give it throttle it is real boggy and delayed. I am begining to suspect that the timing chain may have skipped a tooth on the crank and causing the intake valves to open to early. We were super careful putting everything back together and even were able to time it but this is still a possibility. I hopefully will be able to check that out tonight or tomorrow and I will let you guys no. Thanx, Cameron

[DJ_Sunrise]

Two commonly missed things.. Coolant temp sensor, and Insulators. My car ran rich as shit, idled fucking wierd as fuck, and had shitty gas mileage. All caused by the CTS. Nissan charges like $30. Buy the OEM one. Aftermarket are like $25.. not even worth it. Also.. Did you replace your injector insulators??? Bad/worn down insulators can cause a vac leak, but you probably wouldn't notice it with a boost leak check. That's another problem I've had.. Bad insulators can often cause flat spots in acceleration and rough idling. Just a though. I have 4 insulators if you want them for $20. They are the big donuts that you push the injectors into. Just another thing to get out of the way.

-Bart

[speedfiend]

Ill look into that if it ends up not being the timing chain. If it turns out that I do need those then ill prolly pick them up off of you. I have the valve cover off but I am gonna wait till this weekend to check everything out cause I gotta work. Ill let you guys know what I find. And thanx for all the ideas and suggestions.
Cameron

[speedfiend]

Well a little update since I havent really had time to screw around with the car. As it stands right now I have the hks cams installed, sard 550's, and tomei 1.2mm hg installed and running on the stock ecu. I pulled the valve cover today and set everything to top dead center. I was thinking that I could have possibly slipped a tooth on the crank but judging by how all my marks line up I highly doubt it. In the first pic you can see the two dark links line up perfectly with the dots on the cam gears.
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2008-6/1311544/DSC00674md.jpg

Here in this second pic you can see that the dowl is lined up perfectly with the second notch on the crank pulley indicating top dead center.
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2008-6/1311544/DSC00675md.jpg

I know in the manual it says you should have two silver links and one gold, but I rotated my chain all the way around and mine has two dark like gray links and one silver link. I am completely at a loss now and have pretty much given up hope for this motor to ever pack the power I was hoping.

If anyone has any other ideas other then what has been mentioned in this thread then please feel free to chime in. Otherwise it looks like Im gonna be riding around on some nice parts and a shitty oem ecu with no tune. Ugggghhh im so aggrevated. Sorry had to vent.
Cameron

[tt99ol]

maybe your vtc is acting up
i've hear of that causing all sorts of problems
i think it comes on around where your problem is happening

[speedfiend]

Yeah well I actually got everything figured out. Sounds really dumb but I hadnt tried to drive the car on the tuned ecu for about a month now. I just free reved it and would see if it would still miss and it always does. Anyways the other day I decided to put the tune in and try to drive it and see if it would do the failsafe while driving. Well needless to say it runs perfectly fine. It was on the rich side so I cranked the fuel pressure down some and it seems to be running like a champ. I hooked up my datalogger and it is still a little on the rich side but nothing Im really concerned about. Im just happy it is back in good running order.

Took it out last night and its scary fast. Even under 80% throttle at 55mph in 3rd gear it was pulling the tires loose. Gotta set of Falken rt-615s in the garage waiting to go on then I will get a nice alignment and try to get that power to stick to the ground.

Thanx for all the help and suggestions from you guys. And I will leave all of this up just in case someone else runs into a similar problem and doesnt know where to begin.
Cameron

[tt99ol]

so it was a no load rev limiter
like what evo's have stock
crazy, stock launch limiter
have fun with it