Best Coilover's For Track ..?

[Ali 556]

Hi,

I'm Building My S14 For Track/ AutoX Events...And I Need Your Opinion On The BEST CoilOvers For Track....

The Car Will Get SPL Aluminum SupFrame Bushing And EVO IX Brakes (Got Them Free From A Friend ) And Some 17'' Fronts And Rears With 245 Front And 255-265 Rears... on Nitto 555R's

So I've Seen PPL Run Stanc GR+ Coil's And Some EVO Friends Are Running HKS Hyper Max II RS Coilovers....

Also I've Talked To Some EVO / STI Guys And They Say That The Best "suspension" Parts To Start With Are Coilovers And Swaybars....

My Best Option Are :

STANC GR+ Coilover

HKS Hipermax III RS "(The Hipermax III series strikes a balance of track performance and a smooth ride. Hipermax III Sport is tuned for serious track performance. And the Hipermax III CLX series is designed for luxury cars to seamlessly blend fantastic handling and feedback with a smooth ride, even on less-than-smooth pavement.)"

Koni struts and ground control springs (somone Told me It' s A " Its a more involved setup but you get a far more superior setup compared to off the shelf coilovers.")

My Friend Have The HKS HM II On His WRX And He LOVE them.....I Know My S14 Is NOT A WRX But He Gave me A good WORD About Them....

And PLEASE Don't say KW Variant 3's B/C they are for S13 ONLY...NOthing for S14...

Thanks Guys,

Ali

[murda-c]

www.nissanroadracing.com

look up veilside 180sx, he's on here also. He makes custom housings for using different koni shocks with ground control springs. I'm thinking about getting koni 8611's

[KiDyNomiTe]

I had a friend with HKS on his S14, he didn't like them...

My opinion is go for the STANCE. If you like to spend money go for DG5, or go for the baller custom setups, but if you havent already looked at those options they probably arent for you...

[hustlervibes]

What kind of budget are you talking about. And "best" coilovers are subjective compared to driving style. But if you don't have much money and are willing to learn I suggest going with the koni/gc or stance if you're lazy. If you have some money to waste go zeal, ohlins, or something like that.

[Ali 556]

What kind of budget are you talking about. And "best" coilovers are subjective compared to driving style. But if you don't have much money and are willing to learn I suggest going with the koni/gc or stance if you're lazy. If you have some money to waste go zeal, ohlins, or something like that.

Around 1200-1700$....Now my best option are KONI+GC....And NO Fuking way i'll buy ZEL.....They Cost 2800-3200$:loco: :loco:

Thanks,

keep'em coming guys

Ali

[eulalia]

why dont you get tanabe sevens?

i just purchased some, havent tried them out yet

but ive heard nothing but great things about them
dampering system, you could feel the difference in each setting

and if you live in southern california, they have a headquarters so down the line you could get rebuilds with no problem

heres some info on the tanabe sevens:

http://www.tanabe-usa.com/coilovers/SEVEN.asp

http://www.zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=118077

and there around your price range depending where you purchase them

even better you can get that system for tanabe called TEAS, and it adjust your dampering to your speed!! (sorry i found that awsome.. lol)

good luck

[racepar1]

The BEST coilovers for track/autocross would be a custom KONI 8611/ Ground Control set-up. Japanese shocks are 99% crap. I wanna take my TEIN flex housings and modify (lengthen) them to accept KONI 8611 double adjustable strut inserts. You can make a better product for less than you can buy one for, as long as you are not concerned with "how low can you go". There is a KONI/GC thread, search for it.

[Ali 556]

The BEST coilovers for track/autocross would be a custom KONI 8611/ Ground Control set-up. Japanese shocks are 99% crap. I wanna take my TEIN flex housings and modify (lengthen) them to accept KONI 8611 double adjustable strut inserts. You can make a better product for less than you can buy one for, as long as you are not concerned with "how low can you go". There is a KONI/GC thread, search for it.

yea,

Alot of ppl said good thing about KW Varinet 3 And KONI/GC Setup's...the bad side is that the KW's Are only For S13 and nothing for S14....

Now I'm interested About this setup.....i'll look for them...

BTW Are you usuing them...? give me a review....:bigok:

Thanks man,

Ali

EDIT :

Searched and seem that i can't find the thread..can you post it....thanks

Ali

[veilside180sx]

http://www.zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=161773&highlight=ground+control

[Aoshi112]

yea,

Alot of ppl said good thing about KW Varinet 3 And KONI/GC Setup's...the bad side is that the KW's Are only For S13 and nothing for S14....

Now I'm interested About this setup.....i'll look for them...

BTW Are you usuing them...? give me a review....:bigok:

Thanks man,

Ali

EDIT :

Searched and seem that i can't find the thread..can you post it....thanks

Ali

Actually KW does have V3 for the S14. I have an email from the product manager verifying this.

Part # is 35285003

-Jason

[Ali 556]

Actually KW does have V3 for the S14. I have an email from the product manager verifying this.

Part # is 35285003

-Jason

hummmm,

http://www.kw-suspension.com/en/30_Products/20_KW_Coilovers/40_Application_List/index.php?gruppe=all&level=3&hersteller_1=NISSAN&modell_1=240SX

:confused:

Ali

[Aoshi112]

That's why I emailed them to make sure. You can email them too or heck call 'em up.

this is the email i received

"Jason

For a 240SX 94+ body, the part number would be 35285003 for the V3
units.

Please let us know if you have any other questions.



Tom Edge
Brand Manager

KW automotive North America, Inc
1075 North Avenue
Sanger, CA 93657
Tel: +1 559.875.0222 ext. 143
Fax: +1 559.876.2259
Email:[email protected]
Web: www.kwautomotive.com"

[Ali 556]

That's why I emailed them to make sure. You can email them too or heck call 'em up.

this is the email i received

"Jason

For a 240SX 94+ body, the part number would be 35285003 for the V3
units.

Please let us know if you have any other questions.



Tom Edge
Brand Manager

KW automotive North America, Inc
1075 North Avenue
Sanger, CA 93657
Tel: +1 559.875.0222 ext. 143
Fax: +1 559.876.2259
Email:[email protected]
Web: <A href="http://www.kwautomotive.com"[/quote">www.kwautomotive.com"


NICE...

Check this thread
http://www.zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=161773&highlight=ground+control

turn out that the KW Are usuing KONI struts....(read page 5 or 6)...

So I Think I'll Go With KONI/GC + Tein Camper Plate....

All'n'All it will be a ~1300$ will spent....

Thanks guys,

Ali

[Aoshi112]

I THINK that is true but thats only for the v2. V3 are supposed to be built in house. I read this from some other forum.

But you can't go wrong with Konis!

Oh and read this.

http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets6.html

Dennis Grant recently updated his page to include more information about suspension

[Omarius Maximus]

I'd look into ground controls/advance design shocks. The shocks will be the more expensive part of the equation..you have to ask yourself if you want compression and rebound adjustment.

Also, if you want Ground Controls, you CANNOT run them low, unless you get some shorter shocks.

[((sr)) kelly]

i have tein flex, and i like them.... they are alot better then my friends Zeal imo, and his cost loads more

[bizzyj83]

All KW Variant coilovers have external reservoirs, right??

[Ali 556]

All KW Variant coilovers have external reservoirs, right??

No,

Only the "motorSport" version they cost 2500+$...

Ali

[veilside180sx]

Research more.

The Koni's he was recommended are double adjustable 8611(seperate compression/rebound). The inserts for the AD are actually longer than the 8610 SA/8611 DA inserts.

The drop in Koni's can be mounted low enough to not be an issue as well, if using new equipment rather than stock housings as well.

I'd look into ground controls/advance design shocks. The shocks will be the more expensive part of the equation..you have to ask yourself if you want compression and rebound adjustment.

Also, if you want Ground Controls, you CANNOT run them low, unless you get some shorter shocks.

[Ali 556]

veilside180sx (http://www.zilvia.net/f/member.php?u=24002)

I'll get my KONI/GC setup somewhere in the next 1-2 months...and i was under the immprision(SP?) that you can make custom housing for 8611's on S13 / S14...

If you Can Do It....Can You PM The Price For Your Labour...

Thanks man,

Ali

[racepar1]

If you wanna go 8611's in the rear too you will have to use the 300zx rear uprights as the compression adjustment is on the bottom of the insert. You can't drill a big hole through the s-chasis rear lower mounting bushings to access the adjuster (without removing the insert completely from the housing that is).

[Ali 556]

If you wanna go 8611's in the rear too you will have to use the 300zx rear uprights as the compression adjustment is on the bottom of the insert. You can't drill a big hole through the s-chasis rear lower mounting bushings to access the adjuster (without removing the insert completely from the housing that is).

ok,,,

loosing 7-8lbs PER corner is not bad..so it's likes getting 2 birds With one stone...:bigok:

Ali

[racepar1]

^^^ Exactly!

[spool_sample]

+1 billion for veilside's Konis. His shit is legit.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e193/fullboost14/IMG_01301.jpg

Obviously far from done... just a teaser at the moment. This will give you an idea of what they look like, though.

[Brian W.]

I can get you a deal on the KW V3s for S14 if youre interested.

[racepar1]

+1 billion for veilside's Konis. His shit is legit.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e193/fullboost14/IMG_01301.jpg

Obviously far from done... just a teaser at the moment. This will give you an idea of what they look like, though.

I gotta hit him up soon about this! +1 for bitchin set-up!

[McCoy]

Veilsides custom housings, GC hardware and Koni 8610 inserts :)

http://www.sr20forum.com/gallery/data/959/medium/koni_front_complete.jpg

[Aoshi112]

I can get you a deal on the KW V3s for S14 if youre interested.

how much shipped to 92058?

[spool_sample]

Veilsides custom housings, GC hardware and Koni 8610 inserts :)

http://www.sr20forum.com/gallery/data/959/medium/koni_front_complete.jpg

Oh yeah, gotta love McCoy's setup... the "super extra wheel clearance" edition. :bigok:

[Ali 556]

OK,
so my setup will be :

Tier's : 235/45/17 All Around.

Rim's : 17'' x 8''.

Suspension : KONI/GC Setup..(Need Help With SpringRate For The
Track)..Is 400F / 350R OK..?

Nismo Supframe Bushing.

Spl Arms Everywhere.

??? RUCA's (Who Know The Good'n'cheap RUCA's).

Evo IX Brakes (Front And Rear). :yum:

Guys....Let Me Know What you think of my setup.....

Thanks,:bigok:

Ali

[racepar1]

OK,
so my setup will be :

Tier's : 235/45/17 All Around.

Rim's : 17'' x 8''.

You should go wider in my opinion, and a 45 sidewall may be too tall. 235 is a good width for an 8" wheel though, actually perfect. I would consider 235/40/17's.

Suspension : KONI/GC Setup..(Need Help With SpringRate For The
Track)..Is 400F / 350R OK..?

That may not be stiff enough in the front. 400lb/in is about 7k. I had problems hitting the bump stops under heavy cornering with 7k springs in the front of my s-13. I now run 9k springs in the front and I cut about 1/2" off of my front bump stops and it seems to be much better (although my shocks aren't really valved for 9k springs), it actually seems to ride a bit better as well.

Nismo Supframe Bushing.

I would go with the SPL solid aluminum ones. They allow you to adjust the anti-squat, which can be beneficial in a track/autocross car. 240's have a TON of anti-squat from the factory, which makes them transition to on-throttle oversteer easily.

Spl Arms Everywhere.

??? RUCA's (Who Know The Good'n'cheap RUCA's).

There is no such thing as good and cheap, that is a contradiction of terms right there! LOL!

Evo IX Brakes (Front And Rear). :yum:

Can't go wrong with brembos, just make sure you buy some REAL race pads if you are serious about track.

Guys....Let Me Know What you think of my setup.....

Thanks,:bigok:

Ali

Well, there it is. Definitely get A LOT of opinions on the spring rates. In the end though it really depends on what YOU want the car to feel like. You probably wouldn't like my car and I probably wouldn't like yours. Every driver is different.

[Matej]

Megan Track's. :keke:

[Ali 556]

You should go wider in my opinion, and a 45 sidewall may be too tall. 235 is a good width for an 8" wheel though, actually perfect. I would consider 235/40/17's.

hummm, Most Of My Track Buddy's told me to go with 235/45/17 b/c the fat side wall will give me better cornering....:confused: Also The Rim's are Cheap knockoff's 17'' x 8'' that i'll get them for ~470$ For ALL four of them.. (some knock off SSR's 17'' x 7.5'' here :http://www.zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=179346


That may not be stiff enough in the front. 400lb/in is about 7k. I had problems hitting the bump stops under heavy cornering with 7k springs in the front of my s-13. I now run 9k springs in the front and I cut about 1/2" off of my front bump stops and it seems to be much better (although my shocks aren't really valved for 9k springs), it actually seems to ride a bit better as well.
Veliside180sx will build some 8611's front and koni yallow's in the rear and i'll tell him this...


I would go with the SPL solid aluminum ones. They allow you to adjust the anti-squat, which can be beneficial in a track/autocross car. 240's have a TON of anti-squat from the factory, which makes them transition to on-throttle oversteer easily.

Ok....Will do:bigok:


There is no such thing as good and cheap, that is a contradiction of terms right there! LOL!

ok..how about good and reliable And "reasonably priced" RUCA's....?


Can't go wrong with brembos, just make sure you buy some REAL race pads if you are serious about track.

ya..b/c i got them for free.....:naughty:


Well, there it is. Definitely get A LOT of opinions on the spring rates. In the end though it really depends on what YOU want the car to feel like. You probably wouldn't like my car and I probably wouldn't like yours. Every driver is different.

Thanks man...Also racepar1 (http://www.zilvia.net/f/member.php?u=60816) Can You Post Your Setup...here or PM me.. Thanks

Regards,

Ali

[racepar1]

Look up my VB pic gallery, all the mods are listed there. I'm just too lazy to write it all down. I need different sway bars though. I would like to get the whiteline sways, but they won't clear my front underbrace, I may have to sell it off so I can run them. There just aren't very many companies that make adjustable sway bars.

[McRussellPants]

Just to throw it out there, the Japan coils aren't really "crap" they're just undervalved for anything and under sprung for serious business.

some of the manufacturers will re valve them for you and get them to work pretty well. but you have to be really specific about what you want.

I would go with the SPL solid aluminum ones. They allow you to adjust the anti-squat, which can be beneficial in a track/autocross car. 240's have a TON of anti-squat from the factory, which makes them transition to on-throttle oversteer easily.

The solid aluminum bushings do not affect anti squat.

The S14 subframe will have less anti squat but has a totally fucked toe gain curve.

The S15 subframe has a better toe gain curve and less anti as well, if you can find one.

The cheap way to do it is to rotate the subframe with the "jdmpineapplepspacers" whatever, which I've been told fit with solid aluminums, but doubt it just because those aluminums fit so tight the subframe only goes on one way.


If I ever get serious business about coilovers its gonna be Peaks AST setup, or KW Motorsports.

The KWs V2s are pretty nice, I've yet to feel them to tell if they work any better, only problem is they're clearly not developed around having a low car.

[racepar1]

Just to throw it out there, the Japan coils aren't really "crap" they're just undervalved for anything and under sprung for serious business.

some of the manufacturers will re valve them for you and get them to work pretty well. but you have to be really specific about what you want.



The solid aluminum bushings do not affect anti squat.

The S14 subframe will have less anti squat but has a totally fucked toe gain curve.

The S15 subframe has a better toe gain curve and less anti as well, if you can find one.

The cheap way to do it is to rotate the subframe with the "jdmpineapplepspacers" whatever, which I've been told fit with solid aluminums, but doubt it just because those aluminums fit so tight the subframe only goes on one way.


If I ever get serious business about coilovers its gonna be Peaks AST setup, or KW Motorsports.

The KWs V2s are pretty nice, I've yet to feel them to tell if they work any better, only problem is they're clearly not developed around having a low car.

SPL sells spacers for their solid bushings that allow you to tilt the subframe to change the anti-squat. KW's are very good if you want a bolt-on set-up for sure.

[Ali 556]

. KW's are very good if you want a bolt-on set-up for sure.

hummm,

I thought That The KONI/GC > Any Coilover's.....?:confused:

Care To Elaborate...

Regards,

Ali

[spool_sample]

I thought That The KONI/GC > Any Coilover's.....?

No. A good Koni set-up is far better performing than 90% of the off-the-shelf JDM units, but in the grand scheme of things, Koni Yellows and even 86-series are pretty entry level. You better have deep pockets if you want some of the SERIOUS dampers - Koni 28-series, Moton, JRZ, Penske, etc. etc... the usual suspects that you hear about but no one runs, because they are FAR too big of an investment for most. Koni 2817s are twice as expensive as 8611s, but I'll be damned if I could be twice as fast on them, let alone feel much of a difference to begin with.

KWs are pretty damn good, valving-wise, but S-chassis cars need a good deal of lowering to really get the CG down, and KWs suck at that. From what I've been told, the adjusters on the KWs are similar to Koni's, so it's possible that Koni did that valving on them. Plus, you don't have to piece them together, like you would have to do with Konis, but good luck getting a custom setup from KW, unless you pay for it and get the Clubsports.

[Ali 556]

^^

Veliside180sx will buy and built 8611 + GC + Tein Camper plate front..and Stock Koni yallows + GC + Tein thingey on top....

The car will be on STOCK Repet STOCK KA24DE With 245/45/17 AllAround With R compound tires ( Nitto NT01)....

Sway bars will be whiteline (full Stiff) front And No Rear Sway Bar...With EVO Brakes F&R....

The car+tiers will grip like mofo's (on stock engine) then i'll (either) go KA+T (GT32) Or LSx With 350whp 320TQ UNDER 2000RPM's...:aw:

So Will Se What Happen...:naughty:

Regards,

Ali

[racepar1]

KWs are pretty damn good, valving-wise, but S-chassis cars need a good deal of lowering to really get the CG down, and KWs suck at that.

The roll center of the suspension is far more important than the CG of the car. It is not a good idea to slam your car unless you have some provision to correct roll center. You will end up with more body roll even though the CG is lower because the CG will have more leverage on the suspension since the roll center drops more than the CG. You must think it through thoroughly before you lower ANY car. This is the exact reason wny I still have gaps in my wheel wells.

[steve shadows]

hummm,

I thought That The KONI/GC > Any Coilover's.....?:confused:

Care To Elaborate...

Regards,

Ali

After trying some other coilovers I can say this without a doubt is true.

THere are some gems out there but they are not going to match the progressive and controllable nature for grip like the Koni dampers.

I like my KTS but they are more bouncy than my 600 dollar KYB/GC setup.

I will be going Koni Yellow if I ever get more serious about track days.

[spool_sample]

The roll center of the suspension is far more important than the CG of the car. It is not a good idea to slam your car unless you have some provision to correct roll center. You will end up with more body roll even though the CG is lower because the CG will have more leverage on the suspension since the roll center drops more than the CG. You must think it through thoroughly before you lower ANY car. This is the exact reason wny I still have gaps in my wheel wells.

By lowering I didn't mean to slam it, but S-chassis cars are 4x4s. You can get an S13 or S14 decently low without screwing the roll centers too badly... just have to find the balance. KW lowering, as I've seen, is like spring/shock lowering, probably because their spring rates are pretty soft and can't compensate for the worsening roll center.

You could probably dump it if you felt like running 12k+ springs. :D

MacP suspension really sucks.

[racepar1]

By lowering I didn't mean to slam it, but S-chassis cars are 4x4s. You can get an S13 or S14 decently low without screwing the roll centers too badly... just have to find the balance. KW lowering, as I've seen, is like spring/shock lowering, probably because their spring rates are pretty soft and can't compensate for the worsening roll center.

You could probably dump it if you felt like running 12k+ springs. :D

MacP suspension really sucks.

Ya but 12k+ springs are just too stiff. You'll end up with a car that is easily upset by bumps on the track. I'm not a big fan of anything more than moderate lowering of any car because not very many people seem to understand how to do it right. As soon as your LCA's start pointing at an up angle, you have gone too far. And YES macpherson strut suspension pisses me off too!

[Def]

Usually you'll go faster from the lower CG as long as you keep your outside front tire happy with camber regardless of your roll center up front.

You have to compensate with a stiff spring up front which affects compliance, but it works, and goes pretty quick.


Look at BMWCCA race cars for a good idea of how far a strut suspension and rear multilink can be pushed with a good setup.

[veilside180sx]

You'd do better with a 235/40/17 more than likely, as the tire will not be as tall.

^^

Veliside180sx will buy and built 8611 + GC + Tein Camper plate front..and Stock Koni yallows + GC + Tein thingey on top....

The car will be on STOCK Repet STOCK KA24DE With 245/45/17 AllAround With R compound tires ( Nitto NT01)....

Sway bars will be whiteline (full Stiff) front And No Rear Sway Bar...With EVO Brakes F&R....

The car+tiers will grip like mofo's (on stock engine) then i'll (either) go KA+T (GT32) Or LSx With 350whp 320TQ UNDER 2000RPM's...:aw:

So Will Se What Happen...:naughty:

Regards,

Ali

[KA240SX808]

Veilsides custom housings, GC hardware and Koni 8610 inserts :)

http://www.sr20forum.com/gallery/data/959/medium/koni_front_complete.jpg

:love: msglnth

[Wiisass]

The roll center of the suspension is far more important than the CG of the car. It is not a good idea to slam your car unless you have some provision to correct roll center. You will end up with more body roll even though the CG is lower because the CG will have more leverage on the suspension since the roll center drops more than the CG. You must think it through thoroughly before you lower ANY car. This is the exact reason wny I still have gaps in my wheel wells.

It's always better to lower the CG. You just need to account for the roll center height other ways. Just remember that lowering the CG in the best way to decrease load transfer. And keeping the tires more evenly loaded is the best way to increase the lateral force capacity of the car.

Ya but 12k+ springs are just too stiff. You'll end up with a car that is easily upset by bumps on the track. I'm not a big fan of anything more than moderate lowering of any car because not very many people seem to understand how to do it right. As soon as your LCA's start pointing at an up angle, you have gone too far. And YES macpherson strut suspension pisses me off too!

12k springs are not too stiff. They need to be paired with good dampers, but they can be made to work and work well. And a good damper will help keep the car from getting upset due to bumps. And it's not when your LCA goes past horizontal that you're in trouble, it's when the angle between the strut axis and the lca is greater than 90*. Just think about how roll center for a MacP strut car is determined and you will understand why.

Usually you'll go faster from the lower CG as long as you keep your outside front tire happy with camber regardless of your roll center up front.

You have to compensate with a stiff spring up front which affects compliance, but it works, and goes pretty quick.


Look at BMWCCA race cars for a good idea of how far a strut suspension and rear multilink can be pushed with a good setup.

Exactly.

And I think the BMW race cars are getting a little better starting off point than S-chassis cars.

[racepar1]

It's always better to lower the CG. You just need to account for the roll center height other ways. Just remember that lowering the CG in the best way to decrease load transfer. And keeping the tires more evenly loaded is the best way to increase the lateral force capacity of the car.

There is some truth to this statement for sure, but if you do not correct roll center you will end up with more body roll. In my opinion the suspension geometry is the MOST important thing for a car's handling (other than shocks and springs that is).

12k springs are not too stiff. They need to be paired with good dampers, but they can be made to work and work well. And a good damper will help keep the car from getting upset due to bumps. And it's not when your LCA goes past horizontal that you're in trouble, it's when the angle between the strut axis and the lca is greater than 90*. Just think about how roll center for a MacP strut car is determined and you will understand why.

I just think that 12k is too much for most tracks. If you are running pretty wide r-compounds and the track you're at is either very smooth or very high speed I could see 12k. But at a track like the streets or buttonwillow I think the 12k springs would be too much as both tracks are VERY rough. The stiffer springs will not allow the suspension to compress enough to absorb the bumps. You may be able to keep the tires on the ground with good dampers, but the body motion (due to the stiffer springs) will most likely make the car more "twitchy". I know that once the angle you are referring to exceeds 90* the macpherson strut suspension starts gaining positive camber, but once the control arms start pointing upwards you have f-ed up the roll center almost certainly. The truth about all of this is that it is all a compromise. You can't make everything perfect unless you re-engineer the entire suspension, so you have to pick what you wanna give up. I would rather give up the CG than the roll center. My opinion may change eventually, but that is where I'm at right now. I don't want you to think that I am trying to belittle you or prove you wrong or anything like that. I just enjoy conversations like this.

[Wiisass]

Some truth? How about all truth?

I forgot to mention, I was going to say that it's easier to account for a non-ideal roll center than a too high CG. Roll center is only part of the equation and it does matter and is important, but there is a lot more going in. Suspension geometry is important, I never said that it wasn't. And look at where body roll comes from. What is the moment arm? Where is the force applied? Lowering the CG 1" will shorten the moment arm more than moving the front roll center up 1".

If you don't believe me, plot the effect on lateral load transfer with a varying CG height versus varying roll center and see which will have the greatest effect. There is just so much that goes into it that needs to be considered. Elastic load transfer versus geometric load transfer, jacking, the effects of a below ground roll center. In reality, the biggest effect of a too low roll center on a MacP suspension is the effect on the camber curve.

As for springs, I don't think you're realizing the benefit of a good damper. A good digressive compression curve will effectively soften the damper under higher shaft speeds. Meaning that it will allow the spring to compress because of bumps rather than transmit the force through the damper and into the chassis. You are right that depending on the track and car it may be stiffer than needed, but it's not out of the range of spring rates that can be used and work well with an s-chassis.

It is all a compromise. And the biggest one was taken when you started building a 240. And redesigning the whole suspension probably wouldn't even be worth the work. I would do something with the front and there are a couple ways that I've been thinking about doing it, but the gains might not be worth the effort. And a suspension will never be perfect, there are always constraints which lead to compromise.

Since your opinion is the roll center is more important than the CG, I would really like to hear why you think that.

[racepar1]

The thing is that when you lower a car the roll center drops MORE than the center of gravity. When your roll center is raised it allows you to run softer springs with the same amount of body roll. That means that your suspension will absorb bumps better and retain the same cornering ability. My primary concern with roll center is body roll. A super low car with a super low roll center will have more body roll because the CG of the car has more leverage on the suspension (due to the super low roll center). In my opinion that will pretty much negate anything you gained by lowering the CG. To correct that you would need stiffer springs and/or sway bars, which can negatively affect the suspension in other ways. There is a happy median where you gain more by lowering the CG than you lose by lowering the roll center. None of the serious track/autocross cars that I have seen are anywhere near "slammed". Not that I am trying to say that you are encouracing "slamming" your car, but it is just an example.

[Wiisass]

You're putting emphasis on the wrong part. Let's go back to what is most important for handling and that is keeping the tires as evenly loaded as possible. There are a couple ways to do this and they are lowering the CG or increasing the track width.

And you have to remember that body roll does not mean load transfer. And controlling load transfer is important. The main part about reducing body roll is to help control the attitude of the wheel relative to the ground throughout travel. So less body will will allow you to run a less agressive alignment to keep the tire in a more ideal position throughout the range of roll angles.

And when you start looking at spring rates and what rates you would want on a track car to get the car in the right frequency range, the spring stiffness will be stiff enough to give the car a low roll gradient even with a low roll center. Run the numbers and look at how much roll gradient will change based on roll center height versus CG.

I used to think that roll center was more important and it is, but once you look at all the numbers you will start to realize that it does not have as much effect as you would think. There are so many other factors that play into the equation.

As for serious track cars not being slammed, it's all a compromise. And I don't know the reasons for those cars not being slammed. A lot of times there are ride height rules and other specifics that don't allow you to do everything that you want with the car.

Just for arguments sake, let's compare an S13 with 2 different setups.

First car:
CG height - 20"
Front RCH - 2"
Rear RCH - 5"
Roll gradient - -1.02 deg/g
Front Lateral load transfer - 474lb/g
Rear Lateral load transfer - 246lb/g
Roll axis to CG moment arm - 16.36"

First car:
CG height - 16"
Front RCH - -4"
Rear RCH - 2"
Roll gradient - -1.04 deg/g
Front Lateral load transfer - 371lb/g
Rear Lateral load transfer - 195lb/g
CG to roll axis moment arm - 16.75"

The roll center numbers are arbitrary, so if you want different numbers I'll put them in.

But look at the small difference in roll gradient, it's only a 0.02deg/g difference which is tiny. But the load transfer has been decreased by about 100lb/g in the front and 50lb/g in the back.

This is with the same springs and sway bars, so nothing has changed between the 2 cars besides ride height. With the spring rates used, the car also has too much front spring, so the car is a little too understeer biased. But I don't have the time to change everything to make this example better.

Tim

[racepar1]

Actual numbers kick ass! +1 for you sir! AGAIN! How did you come up with the load transfer numbers? Do you have a computer program or is it all by hand? I am no suspension engineer so I don't know the formulas, but I am definitely interested in learning.

[Slidin240Wayz]

Tim


HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

:fart:

TKO

Tim's an engineer...listen carefully.

[landins13]

if you wanna go all out, tanabe sustec 7's fully adjustable with electronic pillow ball upper mounts, considered the best by a lot of drift/autox pro drivers, theyll run you about 2k for the entire system, but you can store something like 20 different settings and at the push of a button choose one whether youre racing or daily driving. you can also adjust them to your driving style, and correct driver errors by tuning the suspension around how you drive.

[SoSideways]

if you wanna go all out, tanabe sustec 7's fully adjustable with electronic pillow ball upper mounts, considered the best by a lot of drift/autox pro drivers, theyll run you about 2k for the entire system, but you can store something like 20 different settings and at the push of a button choose one whether youre racing or daily driving. you can also adjust them to your driving style, and correct driver errors by tuning the suspension around how you drive.

Tim doesn't like those. Says Tanabe's idea was great but couldn't quite implement it into the design 100%.

Honestly, Veilside180sx's housing + Koni 8611s + GC setup = pure win. Will run you about $2k, but those $2k will be much better than most off the shelf JDM coilovers you can buy.

[AceInHole]

Exactly.

And I think the BMW race cars are getting a little better starting off point than S-chassis cars.

Those guys go nuts on caster, though it doesn't seem as though many of the 240 guys have tried to do so. I tried to implement it on my last alignment and it was awesome for turn-in, to say the least....

[racepar1]

I've got like 7* of caster right now. I'll try more next time I get it corner weighted and aligned. Thanks for the tip on the trac arms by the way, it seemed to work quite well!

[Def]

Those guys go nuts on caster, though it doesn't seem as though many of the 240 guys have tried to do so. I tried to implement it on my last alignment and it was awesome for turn-in, to say the least....

Yea, the E36 M3 suspension is different than the normal E36 to the point to where it LOVES lots of caster, while normal E36 chassis seem to like more like -4 to -5 deg from what I hear. You can go to all M3 stuff(control arms, upper mounts, or adjustable, control arm bushings etc.), and it's the same situation, but there is enough different in the arms, mounts, and bushings to make the cars behave really differently to lots of caster.

And yes, their starting slate is much MUCH better than an S13/S14 from a front suspension standpoint. To get them "racecar low" you only need to go about 2-3" down, while an S13 probably needs a good 5" to get down to where the tire starts bumping into stuff. So obviously things have changed drastically from stock with that big of a change...

[Silverbullet]

Just for arguments sake, let's compare an S13 with 2 different setups.

First car:
CG height - 20"
Front RCH - 2"
Rear RCH - 5"
Roll gradient - -1.02 deg/g
Front Lateral load transfer - 474lb/g
Rear Lateral load transfer - 246lb/g
Roll axis to CG moment arm - 16.36"

First car:
CG height - 16"
Front RCH - -4"
Rear RCH - 2"
Roll gradient - -1.04 deg/g
Front Lateral load transfer - 371lb/g
Rear Lateral load transfer - 195lb/g
CG to roll axis moment arm - 16.75"

The roll center numbers are arbitrary, so if you want different numbers I'll put them in.

But look at the small difference in roll gradient, it's only a 0.02deg/g difference which is tiny. But the load transfer has been decreased by about 100lb/g in the front and 50lb/g in the back.




Suspension Analyzer? You wouldn't happen to have a copy of the software would you? The Formula SAE team at my school wouldn't let me barrow it.

[czarli]

koni is the shit, I just put em on my car and it's amazing along with sportlines for my s13 but now I need more power it's glued to the road and I am runnig on 14"meshies

[Wiisass]

Actual numbers kick ass! +1 for you sir! AGAIN! How did you come up with the load transfer numbers? Do you have a computer program or is it all by hand? I am no suspension engineer so I don't know the formulas, but I am definitely interested in learning.

All the numbers are from one of my spreadsheets. It's all basic equations though, but it's everything in one place for me, so it's kind of nice to have. It does frequencies, damping, roll rates, total lateral load transfer distribution and pretty much everything else you could ever think of.

Tim doesn't like those. Says Tanabe's idea was great but couldn't quite implement it into the design 100%.

Honestly, Veilside180sx's housing + Koni 8611s + GC setup = pure win. Will run you about $2k, but those $2k will be much better than most off the shelf JDM coilovers you can buy.

Yeah, I'm not impressed with the Tanabe's. The rotory thing just seemed like a good idea, but I don't think they pulled it off like I thought they would or it just doesn't seem to work as well as it sounds in theory. And their whole electronic control stuff is just flashing lights and buttons to push and is just not the right way to control the dampers.

Yea, the E36 M3 suspension is different than the normal E36 to the point to where it LOVES lots of caster, while normal E36 chassis seem to like more like -4 to -5 deg from what I hear. You can go to all M3 stuff(control arms, upper mounts, or adjustable, control arm bushings etc.), and it's the same situation, but there is enough different in the arms, mounts, and bushings to make the cars behave really differently to lots of caster.

And yes, their starting slate is much MUCH better than an S13/S14 from a front suspension standpoint. To get them "racecar low" you only need to go about 2-3" down, while an S13 probably needs a good 5" to get down to where the tire starts bumping into stuff. So obviously things have changed drastically from stock with that big of a change...

Def, you mean positive caster. And don't forget that caster and mechanical trail are both related, but mechanical trail can be offset due to geometry. And mechanical trail is more important for what most people consider the effects of caster. The biggest benefits of caster alone is the steer camber gain to offset the camber loss due to kingpin.

Suspension Analyzer? You wouldn't happen to have a copy of the software would you? The Formula SAE team at my school wouldn't let me barrow it.

Nope, like I said above, it's my own spreadsheet. Suspension analyzer is a decent program though, especially for the cost. It used to be $400 to buy it, I'm not sure if the price has changed recently. Susprog3d is another good one for not too much money. Both are decent, but you need a full points model of the suspension to get the most out of it. My spreadsheet does not require a full suspension model, but only more easily measured parameters. But it also serves a different purpose.

[Def]

Def, you mean positive caster. And don't forget that caster and mechanical trail are both related, but mechanical trail can be offset due to geometry. And mechanical trail is more important for what most people consider the effects of caster. The biggest benefits of caster alone is the steer camber gain to offset the camber loss due to kingpin.





You're right - no idea why I made the values negative other than I wasn't thinking.

And like you said, there are more things happening than just caster angle changing, but it's an easy way to get an idea of how much things are changing on two cars.

[Ali 556]

Ok,

Now I Have Rims And Brakes...(Both From EVO IX MR) From My Friend....he gave me his rims (17''x8''+35)....Will Fit 235/40/17 on them...:bigok:
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa64/brb-/2-2.jpg?t=1204841107
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa64/brb-/3-1.jpg?t=1204841080

[jeeper_x]

i have tein flex, and i like them.... they are alot better then my friends Zeal imo, and his cost loads more

tein flex is no good, man.......

we use them as hood stand in my bro's garage.......

customers always complain how pussy soft they are when they take the car to the track.....

OHLINS for the win.......

man, words can't even explains how good are ohlins coilovers......

and Zeal is bad because they are stiffer than your pussy ass coilovers?.....

think before you talk, dude.......

he said track, not parking lot pimping.....

:fawk:

[unicoladron]

did you notice if your rim is hub-centric if you directly swapped it from the evo to your S14..??

or did you use infiniti/nissan hubcentric rings..????

[racepar1]

tein flex is no good, man.......

we use them as hood stand in my bro's garage.......

customers always complain how pussy soft they are when they take the car to the track.....

OHLINS for the win.......

man, words can't even explains how good are ohlins coilovers......

and Zeal is bad because they are stiffer than your pussy ass coilovers?.....

think before you talk, dude.......

he said track, not parking lot pimping.....

:fawk:

Flex's are OK at the track, they do feel just a bit soft though. I am pretty happy with mine for the most part. Zeal's are bad because they are fucking overpriced, there is really nothing special about them at all in my opinion. OHLINS = super-duper win! But ohlins = super duper empty bank account! LOL!

[Ali 556]

did you notice if your rim is hub-centric if you directly swapped it from the evo to your S14..??

or did you use infiniti/nissan hubcentric rings..????

They hub-centric And you don't need hubcentric rings...you need new lug nuts tho....

Ali

[matula11]

Koni/Ground Control or KW Varient 3 ? They are about the same price range. Going on a S13 with substantial amounts of tire and slightly wider track with via overfenders and lower wheel offsets.

[Def]

More travel up front with veilside180sx's 8611/8610 housings than the KWs according to all reports.

More info at www.nissanroadracing.com

[matula11]

Koni it is, Def you are the man.