No Pontiac Trans Am and no Pontiac switch to RWD

[exitspeed]

I know most of you aren't domestic fans, or GM fans, but this news sucks for all of us really. And it's all because of these new CAFE regulations. Man this is a real bummer. I would have soooo snatched up a RWD next gen G6.


Since Buick, Pontiac and GMC dealers are in the process of consolidating their showrooms, many were likely hoping for a halo product that could draw customers into the showroom. Hey, wouldn't a version of the upcoming Chevy Camaro badged as a Pontiac Trans Am revival do the trick? Maybe, but at the NADA conference this week, GM told these dealers that a Pontiac Trans Am is not going to happen. Blame the new, more stringent federal fuel economy regulations for killing off this cool idea. In fact, the new regs also mean that the automaker will be scaling back on transforming Pontiac into a rear-wheel-drive performance division. Though GM assured dealers that Pontiac will remain a car-only brand, the assurance that a debacle like the Aztec won't happen a second time is little comfort to those who were hoping Pontiac would once again be the brand that builds excitement. And who says performance has to be totally sacrificed for fuel economy? New powertrains are being developed that make the most of the internal combustion engine's efficiency, and a twin-turbo, direct-inject four-cylinder can make gobs of power while being much more efficient than an equally powerful V6 or even V8.

GM did inform Buick, Pontiac and GMC dealers that they would be getting 12 new or special-edition vehicles over the next 20 months. A special-edition GMC Sierra pickup called Pro Grade was mentioned, for instance. Still, the quashing of any hope for a new Trans Am means that the number of vehicles slated to share the Camaro's rear-wheel-drive Zeta platform in the U.S. is dwindling. Only the Pontiac G8 and G8 ST car-based truck are confirmed, with Zeta-based rear-wheel-drive sedans for Buick and Chevy still up in the air. This means that without the ability to spread out costs across a number of new vehicles, the price of producing these vehicles will likely be high and passed on to the performance-minded consumer.

[Source: Automotive News, sub. req'd]

[ByeByeSti]

ehhh pontiac for the losee

[Farzam]

That's a pretty lame idea

[exitspeed]

That's a pretty lame idea

What is a lame idea?

[bloodangels13]

If only i had a higher paying job and better credit i would so snatch up a g8.... then get the holden aero for it

[Antihero983]

OH WHAT THE FUCK!!!


how could they not bring back the T/A?! dammit!

T/A>Camaro.

[Grendel]

Lame. I still want a WS6 trans am, been in love with that car ever since I saw some guy on the counterstrike forums post his back in the day :p

[Farzam]

What is a lame idea?

Pardon my vagueness, sometimes I get distracted and forget that people can't read my mind, lolz.

I think it's pretty lame to not bring back the T/A.

And RWD is a necessary part of life!

[exitspeed]

Pardon my vagueness, sometimes I get distracted and forget that people can't read my mind, lolz.

I think it's pretty lame to not bring back the T/A.

And RWD is a necessary part of life!

I agree. I'm not a fan of the T/A at all. Infact, nothing says Mullet/Nascar loving/redneck more to me then a T/A or a Monte Carlo. BUT, from a business side of things, it just makes sense to give your...PERFORMANCE BRAND...a true PERFORMANCE SPORTS CAR.

I do understand the other side of things though with the CAFE regulations. I knew there was going to be a fall-out after they were passed. And just wait. GM /Ford/Chrysler are the only ones speaking up right now. Wait until Nissan and Toyota come forward with their plans for the future. Expect to see a whole bunch more FWD/turbo cars.

I still think we'll get some RWD coupes though. I'm not AS confident as I was 6 months ago however.

[Antihero983]

I agree. I'm not a fan of the T/A at all. Infact, nothing says Mullet/Nascar loving/redneck more to me then a T/A or a Monte Carlo.

1. thats why i drove an 84 cutlass supreme ;)

2. and the camaro never screamed mullet? CMON!

WS6 T/A>Camaro. ANY DAY.

[exitspeed]

1. thats why i drove an 84 cutlass supreme ;)

2. and the camaro never screamed mullet? CMON!

WS6 T/A>Camaro. ANY DAY.

Yea it did.
http://www.pelsor.com/mullet/camaro1.jpg

[Dutchmalmiss]

I agree. I'm not a fan of the T/A at all. Infact, nothing says Mullet/Nascar loving/redneck more to me then a T/A or a Monte Carlo. BUT, from a business side of things, it just makes sense to give your...PERFORMANCE BRAND...a true PERFORMANCE SPORTS CAR.

I do understand the other side of things though with the CAFE regulations. I knew there was going to be a fall-out after they were passed. And just wait. GM /Ford/Chrysler are the only ones speaking up right now. Wait until Nissan and Toyota come forward with their plans for the future. Expect to see a whole bunch more FWD/turbo cars.

I still think we'll get some RWD coupes though. I'm not AS confident as I was 6 months ago however.

Damn, CAFE seems like the cockblock for any aspiring new RWD car-owners in the US. I don't know what to say. I was excited to see what a RWD G6 would look like too. Hopefully, the G8 will still be released here in all it's glory.

[exitspeed]

Damn, CAFE seems like the cockblock for any aspiring new RWD car-owners in the US. I don't know what to say. I was excited to see what a RWD G6 would look like too. Hopefully, the G8 will still be released here in all it's glory.

Yea, that's 100% still on. But Lutz confirmed the new Impala will NOT be on that same platform. What a shame.

[kingkilburn]

How can FWD be "cleaner" than RWD? I don't see how one configuration would pass these new standards while the other wouldn't.

I wish the domestic auto makers would step up and spend some serious money on developing new engine technology. Why , after nearly seventy years are they still using the same basic engine design. Give us a nice small block, over head cam, direct injection V8. They could make it a hybrid too. I read somewhere that the new BMW turbo diesel puts out cleaner air than what is breathed in LA, why can't we get a v8 that clean.

[Yuri]

CAFE is the reason that after 2010, the biggest motor you can get in the Dodge Challenger will be a 4.0L V6.
Chrysler is killing off the Hemi, only 2 years after finally mating it to a manual transmission.

Call it Malaise era 2.0.

[drift freaq]

How can FWD be "cleaner" than RWD? I don't see how one configuration would pass these new standards while the other wouldn't.

I wish the domestic auto makers would step up and spend some serious money on developing new engine technology. Why , after nearly seventy years are they still using the same basic engine design. Give us a nice small block, over head cam, direct injection V8. They could make it a hybrid too. I read somewhere that the new BMW turbo diesel puts out cleaner air than what is breathed in LA, why can't we get a v8 that clean.

CAFE is fuel economy standards. Something Detroit has been lagging on compared to other manufacturers. Now the crack up here is GM just never learns. They make mistake after mistake. A long time ago aka the 60's they built cars the American public wanted to buy all over the U.S. In the 70's they and most other American Auto manufacturers lost their vision. They became convinced they knew what the American public wanted based on a Michigan centric viewpoint. Hence they missed the boat on fuel efficient small cars. When the SUV craze hit instead making a few good small cars to sell alongside the SUV to bring up their CAFE standard they focused solely on making money off SUV's again making the mistake. Now they are in trouble, financially and fuel economy standard wise. The easiest way out for them on this is FWD. So in claiming they know what America wants they blunder along . The best thing Detroit automakers could do is get the fuck out of Detroit and see what the rest of the country wants,buys,uses.

[SimpleS14]

If only i had a higher paying job and better credit i would so snatch up a g8.... then get the holden aero for it

I agree.....i can only imagine how the aftermarket will be for that car.

[Yuri]

FWD is generally lighter then RWD. It's also easier for vehicle packaging, allowing you to use more of the interior for passenger space, instead of making provisions for transmission, driveshaft, etc.

[ThatGuy]

Damn, I was waiting for Smokey and the Bandit 4!

Even though it'd be a Hollywood Farce with a cameo by Burt Reynolds and Sally Fields. :down:

No wonder the new KITT is a Craptastic Mustang. :(

[Phlip]

Besides, GM apparently has bigger fish to fry:
http://money.cnn.com/2008/02/12/news/companies/gm/index.htm?cnn=yes

[jackjack]

disappointing news. that sucks.

[exitspeed]

CAFE is fuel economy standards. Something Detroit has been lagging on compared to other manufacturers. Now the crack up here is GM just never learns. They make mistake after mistake. A long time ago aka the 60's they built cars the American public wanted to buy all over the U.S. In the 70's they and most other American Auto manufacturers lost their vision. They became convinced they knew what the American public wanted based on a Michigan centric viewpoint. Hence they missed the boat on fuel efficient small cars. When the SUV craze hit instead making a few good small cars to sell alongside the SUV to bring up their CAFE standard they focused solely on making money off SUV's again making the mistake. Now they are in trouble, financially and fuel economy standard wise. The easiest way out for them on this is FWD. So in claiming they know what America wants they blunder along . The best thing Detroit automakers could do is get the fuck out of Detroit and see what the rest of the country wants,buys,uses.

Well said. You're absolutely right on all points. Although I give GM more credit then Ford and Chrysler as of late. At least they are building a handful of cars that people actually want to buy. Unfortunately, their unwillingness to to ax to get off the SUV wagon (no pun intended) is still killing them.

The domestics have a long way to go, and need to rethink their strategies even further. GM was on the right track with the talk of switching over to RWD cars. Their downfall with that idea was that they were planning on mating the new platforms with big engines. That's not needed. The new GM 3.6 liter found in the CTS is powerful AND efficient. There's no reason not to whore that engine out the same way Nissan does the VQ.

Or take their new turbo eco-tec. How about a small RWD, Pontiac coupe, with that engine to replace the G5? YES PLEASE! WINNER! Efficient AND what the people want.

I should also elaborate on one of the imports. Honda. You won't hear them complain about the new CAFE regs...Why? Because their with-in MPG of the new standards already. And that's NOW, even without the Insight. How can they do it? Well how many trucks and SUV's do they have? That's right, they have a very trim, clean line-up of cars, CUV's, and a small pickup (remember what I said about the future of those Dave???) all with great gas mileage.

[TheRonTom31]

Rhys millen must be pissed he has to continue to tool around in a solstice. I think the solstice is gayer than then the miata**.

**I do not include some of the miatas i have seen on this sight in my previous statement

[exitspeed]

Rhys millen must be pissed he has to continue to tool around in a solstice. I think the solstice is gayer than then the miata**.

**I do not include some of the miatas i have seen on this sight in my previous statement

He's not. Because that car rocks. I know Dave isn't a fan of the Solstice/Sky, but it's still very good first effort for the general in that segment. And it's been one of GM's biggest hits. The #1 complaint about that car(s) is the position of the window switches (which truly do suck). Other then that they are very capable vehicles. Bang for the buck, they give you more then the Miata too. But only because Mazda doesn't offer a MS version currently.

[98s14inaz]

Why haven't domestic car manufacturers learned? You have to spend money to make money. If they would cut the profits back temporarily and put out two or three solid cars that were reasonably priced, performed, and had some kind of longevity it might bring them back from the dead. All this cutting back means they are still circling the bowl of the toilet. I bet they are hoping Uncle Sam bails them out.

[VROOOM]

CAFE is the reason that after 2010, the biggest motor you can get in the Dodge Challenger will be a 4.0L V6.
Chrysler is killing off the Hemi, only 2 years after finally mating it to a manual transmission.

Call it Malaise era 2.0.


why even build it? what a waste.

[exitspeed]

Why haven't domestic car manufacturers learned? You have to spend money to make money. If they would cut the profits back temporarily and put out two or three solid cars that were reasonably priced, performed, and had some kind of longevity it might bring them back from the dead. All this cutting back means they are still circling the bowl of the toilet. I bet they are hoping Uncle Sam bails them out.

Not exactly.

The cutting back is completely necessary at this. They are cutting back because over the decades they have built bloated dealer networks, taken advantage of by the UAW, and all out over doing everything.

They all have two or three or MORE cars that appeal to buyers (I can name cars in every segment fi you'd like) that are selling WELL, are as dependable, and as SOLID of a car as it's import competition.

They still have a long way to go, don't get me wrong, but to be oblivious to the quality competitive products they do have is a shame.

[muddafakka]

I really hate the direction being taken with new cars. That's all I'll say about that.

I in no way fit the stereotype that goes along with Firebird/Trans Am owners but I sure as hell wouldn't mind owning a low-mileage 1998-2002 WS6 or an SLP Firehawk.

[drift freaq]

Not exactly.

The cutting back is completely necessary at this. They are cutting back because over the decades they have built bloated dealer networks, taken advantage of by the UAW, and all out over doing everything.

They all have two or three or MORE cars that appeal to buyers (I can name cars in every segment fi you'd like) that are selling WELL, are as dependable, and as SOLID of a car as it's import competition.

They still have a long way to go, don't get me wrong, but to be oblivious to the quality competitive products they do have is a shame.

Yes Mel hits it on the Nailhead. Anybody that laments the UAW going bye bye does not understand Unions today are not what Unions were back in the 30's,40's and 50's. The UAW is largely responsible for driving costs threw the ceiling for U.S. automakers. Singlehandly they made U.S. Automobile's non competitive.
Anyone who cries about the welfare state worthy U.A.W. needs to study. Fact is if a lazy or no good autoworker at the big three gets laid off they go straight to the U.A.W. and the U.A.W. gets them hired back. Hell those fuckers have paid vacation, paid medical etc..... Besides the fact that the U.A.W. is corrupt and right up there with the teamsters aka AFL CIO in the corruption departmant. Why do you think Jimmy Hoffa disappeared never to be found? Fucking being involved with Mafia and organized crime.

Now with that said G.M. getting rid of the U.A.W. is a step in the right direction towards cost cutting. Hmmm Honda, Suburu,Nissan all have plants in the U.S. employing non union workers that get paid well.
Costco employs non union grocery workers that get paid well.
The days of the Unions being nescessary in this country are over. About the only unions that are doing anything worthwile in this country are the SAG and the writers union which actually strike to correct improper royalty laws the deny fair compensation. The U.A.W. and the Grocery workers just strike to line the pockets of the higher ups in those Unions.

Mel is right about the fact that G.M. is building sellable cars albeit and not high margins due to the cost of making them and bloated product lines that are screwing the margin even more.

[98s14inaz]

Not exactly.

The cutting back is completely necessary at this. They are cutting back because over the decades they have built bloated dealer networks, taken advantage of by the UAW, and all out over doing everything.

They all have two or three or MORE cars that appeal to buyers (I can name cars in every segment fi you'd like) that are selling WELL, are as dependable, and as SOLID of a car as it's import competition.

They still have a long way to go, don't get me wrong, but to be oblivious to the quality competitive products they do have is a shame.

They need to clean house. Get rid of the bloated execs and sub-par designers, kill off a brand or two that sucks. Restructure and start making cars that kick ass again. I love domestics but I would never buy one because of how gay most of them are now.

[SimpleS14]

Besides, GM apparently has bigger fish to fry:
http://money.cnn.com/2008/02/12/news/companies/gm/index.htm?cnn=yes

I know this may seem like I'm cold as ice.....but this is good news IMO (for the most part).

[exitspeed]

They need to clean house. Get rid of the bloated execs and sub-par designers, kill off a brand or two that sucks. Restructure and start making cars that kick ass again. I love domestics but I would never buy one because of how gay most of them are now.

Bingo. I agree with everything you said there.

The last sentence was true for me up to a couple years ago though. Right now GM has at least a few cars that I would HIGHLY consider if I was purchasing in those segments. Ford and Chrysler have none.

[300hp owen]

I just hope the G8 sticks around for a while so we can see some LSA transplants and similar swaps / power adders on them thar rwd v8 sedans.

I thought there was talk of a twin turbo V6 pontiac coupe/sedan rising up soon that would bring out the GNX fanboys again?!?!?!

[exitspeed]

I just hope the G8 sticks around for a while so we can see some LSA transplants and similar swaps / power adders on them thar rwd v8 sedans.

I thought there was talk of a twin turbo V6 pontiac coupe/sedan rising up soon that would bring out the GNX fanboys again?!?!?!

Yea, I heard that rumor years ago. It was supposed to be the G6 replacement I believe. Who knows how far they'll take the Alpha platform now?? BUT, that could be the answer to their performance + efficiency problem. The Alpha platform is a smaller RWD platform then that of the CTS. That mated with the 3.6 liter with less HP (assuming the vehicle has less mass).

[markyboi]

New powertrains are being developed that make the most of the internal combustion engine's efficiency, and a twin-turbo, direct-inject four-cylinder can make gobs of power while being much more efficient than an equally powerful V6 or even V8.




so they want to make a 4 cylinder, twin turbo motor on a fwd.....:ugh:

[98s14inaz]

Bingo. I agree with everything you said there.

The last sentence was true for me up to a couple years ago though. Right now GM has at least a few cars that I would HIGHLY consider if I was purchasing in those segments. Ford and Chrysler have none.

If I had the money I would have a vette in my driveway. Those cars have always made my pants tight since I was a kid. Some day I will have an ls motor in my 240.

[exitspeed]

so they want to make a 4 cylinder, twin turbo motor on a fwd.....:ugh:

Hhehe, that's what Ford is doing...:cj:

[kingkilburn]

So basically the underlying problem here is poor engine design when it comes to economy and efficiency. Why don't they just develop clean higher revving turbo diesels for their trucks and suvs?

Here is my hypothesis for stagnant engine design in America. Nascar did it. They require push rod v8s, with carbs no less. While F1 and GT racing have pushed the limits of power and efficiency Nascar has held back both to the level they were in the late sixties. When trans am racing was big in America you could get as fast car with a well tuned v6 as you could with a small block. I think if Nascar opened up their rules to what they where back when it was STOCK CAR racing we would have plenty of powerful, efficient, light, rwd cars.

What do you guys think?

[exitspeed]

So basically the underlying problem here is poor engine design when it comes to economy and efficiency. Why don't they just develop clean higher revving turbo diesels for their trucks and suvs?

Here is my hypothesis for stagnant engine design in America. Nascar did it. They require push rod v8s, with carbs no less. While F1 and GT racing have pushed the limits of power and efficiency Nascar has held back both to the level they were in the late sixties. When trans am racing was big in America you could get as fast car with a well tuned v6 as you could with a small block. I think if Nascar opened up their rules to what they where back when it was STOCK CAR racing we would have plenty of powerful, efficient, light, rwd cars.

What do you guys think?

That's a very good hypothesis. I think you're on to something.

[Yuri]

Homogulation is the best possible thing for introducing new technologies into the market in my opinion.
Requiring a company to build a production car in order to race it introduces technologies beneficial across the board, eventually trickling into every car the manufacturer makes.
Imo, one of the worst mistakes ever made for the future of the automotive industry is anytime a series tries to make the cars more evenly matched.
The late 90's Chevy Monte Carlo was extremely aerodynamic because at that time Nascar required the stock profile. Ford teams complained the Taurus wasn't competitive enough, so instead of requiring Ford to make the Taurus production model more aerodynamic, they allowed to the race car to not have to follow the production car profile.
This is what made me lose all interest in Nascar.

That and outlawing the wickedly fast Chrysler Wing Cars after only one season.
Imagine the stuff that would have been made if the companies had kept developing cars to compete against each other instead of corporations like Nascar limiting development to keep cars equally matched.

The problem is that the sports have become too driver-centric, trying to take the cars out of the equation.

[kingkilburn]

Maybe we should start writing letters to car magazines or get some kind of petition going. If the big 3 and nascar could agree on some basic rule set we could get some nice cars within the next decade.

On a side note, I believe that LaMans is the soul reason the Corvette is so good. The reason sport bikes are so fast is because they race bikes that are nearly showroom stock. Lancers and Stis are cool because they are very good at what they were designed for. That kind of purpose is what I think most American cars lack.